Buskers equipment confiscated.

Subject: Buskers equipment confiscated.
From: GUEST,Davetnova
Date: 06 Jun 02 - 11:31 AM

A letter in the Daily Mail today reports a professional busker of twenty years standing, Brian Bruno, having his equipment confiscated by council officials in Leicester Square. Reportedly without warning or discussion. This seems draconian. Does any one know any details or under what legislation this could be done.

Subject: RE: BS: Buskers equipment confiscated.
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 06 Jun 02 - 12:04 PM

When I used to do some busking on the London Underground, the transport police would ask you for your name and address if they had to move you on too frequently or if they caught you dodging back to a pitch they'd just moved you off. They would usually send you a warning letter which you had to acknowledge. Buskers who gave false names and addresses often would have their instruments confiscated, but they were usually returned when proof of identity was finally provided.

Does anyone know why they confiscated his equipment ? - I expect that he'll get it back if he goes to see them and does what they request.

Subject: RE: BS: Buskers equipment confiscated.
From: Joan from Wigan
Date: 06 Jun 02 - 01:53 PM

The full text of the letter is:

"For the past 20 years, my boyfriend, Brian Bruno, has worked as a street performer in Leicester Square, London, singing and playing guitar to the thousands of holidaymakers, members of the public and tourists from abroad.

He's made many friends from chatting to them and getting song requests and generally helping people who get a little bit lost around the area. We receive many postcards from around the world.

Brian is extremely talented, and it's his choice to entertain in this fashion. So imagine our surprise when, last week, the council confiscated his hard-worked-for equipment without any warning or discussion. It is quite extraordinary that in a country where millions are unemployed -- and many seem to want to stay that way -- and where businessmen and government officials are making thousands from fraud and deceit, one man trying to make a living from his talent should be treated this way.

Brian has never claimed state benefits, nor indeed sought any help of that kind, until now, having been stripped of the only way he knows how to earn a living. With no equipment he cannot perform, indoors or outdoors, and Leicester Square is being deprived of a loveable, helpful character.

He has never caused any trouble or harmed anyone, and friends and I believe he does not deserve this treatment. Brian wants to work in a job and area he loves, but now he is being forced by law to seek an alternative way of living, namely joining the millions on the dole.

Without performance money, we will definitely have to move, and I cannot bear the thought of living on the dole or on the street.

Miss Antje Jakob, London N1."


I have written to the Daily Mail (they don't publish an email address for letters to the editor, so it's had to go via snail-mail), asking that a reporter follow up on the story, to find out the council's version and whether or not Brian gets his equipment back. If anyone else wants to write, the address is:

Paul Dacre, Editor, Daily Mail, Northcliffe House, 2 Derry Street, London W8 5TT.

Joan

line breaks added by mudelf ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Buskers equipment confiscated.
From: NELLIE
Date: 06 Jun 02 - 02:48 PM

Awfully sorry to hear this story, I would say come down to Devon, where everyone is really more laid back, but obviously the living from busking is not the same. I do hope Brian gets this sorted out soon

Jenny

Subject: RE: BS: Buskers equipment confiscated.
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jun 02 - 04:18 PM

Blimey! Just think of the buskers whose instruments should have been removed!! Don Partidge for one ....

Subject: RE: BS: Buskers equipment confiscated.
From: mousethief
Date: 06 Jun 02 - 04:21 PM

Seems awfully harsh. Y'all don't have "due process" guarantees over there, do you? "Innocent until proven guilty" and all that. Somehow I doubt that the law is written in such a way that if you busk without a license, they take away your guitar.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Buskers equipment confiscated.
From: GUEST,Kernow John
Date: 06 Jun 02 - 05:22 PM

This sort of treatment is totally over the top.
Like Dave Bryant I too used to busk the underground and if you didn't take liberties it was live and let live.
On one occasion I was joined by a double bass player on his way somewhere and while we were playing an LT copper came along and asked if he could have a go on the bass. We mucked about for a few minutes and the copper said he would be back in 45 mins could we be gone by then!
I sure hope Brian gets his gear back and continues to entertain.Note on it's way to the Mail.
John

Subject: RE: BS: Buskers equipment confiscated.
From: GUEST,Davetnova
Date: 06 Jun 02 - 05:33 PM

There is an email adress for Daily Maily letters page - [e-mail] , and they do normally acknowledge

Subject: RE: BS: Buskers equipment confiscated.
From: greg stephens
Date: 06 Jun 02 - 06:06 PM

Having busked my way round UK and Europe, I feel total sympathy. It's hard enough work without the petty officialdom. But it's a great way to live on music, very honest, no hype.What they see is what I get. Keep going, fellow buskers....some people like it, thank God.

Subject: RE: BS: Buskers equipment confiscated.
From: GUEST,Sonja
Date: 06 Jun 02 - 06:26 PM

I've been told that in Portland, OR, where I live, there's a city ordinance prohibiting busking if you can be heard (not "heard clearly or loudly"-- just "heard") 50 feet away, and that your instrument can be confiscated for violating that statute.

I don't know if they ever enforce that law by confiscating the instrument on the first offense or without discussion. But I find it interesting, not to mention ridiculous, that there is not the same kind of objection to boom boxes, loud conversations, leaf blowers, etc.!

I sure hope Dave gets his instrument back--without damage--promptly and that all municipalities will exercise some civility and common sense in passing and enforcing anti-music ordinances.

~SWO~

Subject: RE: BS: Buskers equipment confiscated.
From: artbrooks
Date: 06 Jun 02 - 06:51 PM

I would also like to hear the other side of the story. The letter from the busker's friend refers to "his equipment". That sounds to me more as if it were referring to a portable amp, speakers, and so forth than to an instrument of some sort. I obviously know nothing about the specific situation, but I can easily imagine somebody playing amplified rock guitar having his stuff confiscated, especially if they asked him to go away/shut it down first.

Subject: RE: BS: Buskers equipment confiscated.
From: alanabit
Date: 07 Jun 02 - 03:25 PM

I take offence at our "guest's" cowardly, anonymous and unfunny remark about Don Partridge, who is one of the finest buskers ever to draw breath. Don broke new ground for buskers in the sixties and seventies and bravely took his considerable talent all over the world. He's a fine musician, an excellent singer and a bloody good bloke. I am going to assume that our "guest" takes cheap shots from a position of ignorance. To gloat over any man losing his livelihood beggars belief. Don has given a terrific amount - and he deserves better than snide remarks like this.

Subject: RE: BS: Buskers equipment confiscated.
From: M.Ted
Date: 07 Jun 02 - 04:09 PM

I would think that there have been buskers in Leicester Square for about as long as there has been a Leicester Square, possibly even before there was such a thing as a council--

Subject: RE: BS: Buskers equipment confiscated.
From: alanabit
Date: 07 Jun 02 - 05:02 PM

Exactly M.Ted. A busker draws a crowd of a hundred people and one official with a piece of paper is "entitled" to stop him from earning his living. Democracy innit? Who do our streets belong to, I wonder?

Subject: RE: BS: Buskers equipment confiscated.
From: greg stephens
Date: 07 Jun 02 - 05:18 PM

Anyone remember the Happy Wanderers, Leicester Square buskers way way back? Bloody great (and bloody noisy)

Subject: RE: BS: Buskers equipment confiscated.
From: Jock Morris
Date: 07 Jun 02 - 05:33 PM

I'll be busking in Edinburgh tomorrow and if any council official wants to confiscate my concertina they'll have to prise it out of my cold dead hands first.

Scott

Subject: RE: BS: Buskers equipment confiscated.
From: Kernow John
Date: 08 Jun 02 - 05:59 PM

Can't remember the name Greg but were they the three guys who used to do the sand dance? Bloody hilarious!
John

Subject: RE: BS: Buskers equipment confiscated.
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 10 Jun 02 - 10:44 AM

Wilson, Kepple and Betty--but I don't think Betty was a guy!

Subject: RE: BS: Buskers equipment confiscated.
From: Mac Tattie
Date: 10 Jun 02 - 02:05 PM

Unfortunately I have heard too many "buskers" who should have their instruments relocated (to an other part of their anatomy)not confiscated. cheers.

Subject: RE: BS: Buskers equipment confiscated.
From: alanabit
Date: 10 Jun 02 - 04:06 PM

So have I mate. However, I suspect like you, I make a firm distinction between buskers and instrument carrying beggars.

Subject: RE: BS: Buskers equipment confiscated.
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 12:10 AM

The Law IS the Law

Before the pathetic soul chose to break it....he should have read it.

No sympathy for miscreatants

Children's CD's, Wakman, Video Games are confiscated REGULARLY at school.

Subject: RE: BS: Buskers equipment confiscated.
From: DonMeixner
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 01:00 AM

On a recent trip to Boston I stood for hours in the Quincey Market, just outside Faneuil Hall and listen to audditions for Street Entertainer Permits. Two hours of great fun and fabulous and not so fabulous entertainment. The City of Boston gives out the permits.

I'm of two minds here. If I want to busk up a couple of dollars I should be able to and the City shouldn't be able to stop me. But the City allows busking within certain guidelines. Otherwise, why the audition? I don't know the guidelines so I guess I can't be very balanced here.

The point is one of the reasons this tourist takes his tourist $$$ to Boston is for the Busking. Its part of the show that makes Boston a treat for me.

That and the Duck Tours.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Buskers equipment confiscated.
From: alanabit
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 03:37 AM

I have mixed feelings about this too Don. The principle of auditioning buskers is not so bad in itself, because it is an attempt to draw the line between people who can entertain and earn their money and those who would not get a gig in their local pub and are simply out to beg for money. The problem is, you can't really audition for the way in which a good busking show works. The crowd pulling, interplay, build up of the show and even the bottling routines are an integral part of a good show. A good musician, juggler etc is not not automatically a good street performer.

Subject: RE: BS: Buskers equipment confiscated.
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 04:18 AM

Of course, in a pub you'd need a PEL for a small group. And do any buskers ever pay/acknowledge copyrights ?

Subject: RE: BS: Buskers equipment confiscated.
From: alanabit
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 09:46 AM

I play my own songs. Who do you want me to pay royalties to?

Subject: RE: BS: Buskers equipment confiscated.
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 12:43 PM

alanabit - Your comment "The crowd pulling, interplay, build up of the show and even the bottling routines" really piqued my interest; could you describe what a typical routine might be, especially the "bottling" ?

Subject: RE: BS: Buskers equipment confiscated.
From: Joan from Wigan
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 12:54 PM

To the anonymous GUEST who posted at 12.10am:

If children's CDs etc are confiscated, that's because they've broken school rules. However, busking is not against the law (in this country, at least). So I'm not at all with you when you say "he should have read it". The laws a busker has to beware of are (1) begging - on no account must he/she ask for money; (2) causing an obstruction (e.g. if he/she is blocking the pavement, or if a large crowd gathers round and blocks the pavement); (3) causing a public nuisance (if someone complains, rightly or wrongly, about the performer/performance to the authorities); (4) selling tapes/CDs/anything else without a hawker's licence. But busking per se is NOT illegal.

Brian Bruno's girlfriend, in her letter, does not mention any of the above - and if, as she states, Brian has been a professional busker for 20 years, he will know what's what, and what to avoid doing. Normally, if a busker falls foul of the authorities, he/she will be warned or asked to move on, and only if he/she carries on being a nuisance will action be taken. It is the seemingly draconian treatment of this council in confiscating equipment without any prior warning which has raised hackles here.

I would be very interested to hear the council's side of the story, and to know whether the equipment can be returned. The Daily Mail has not yet printed any follow-up, hopefully they are investigating.

Joan

Subject: RE: BS: Buskers equipment confiscated.
From: AliUK
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 04:22 PM

Letter of protest sent. It reminds me of a time several years ago when a friend and I were busking in a train station in Berlin and were nearly arrested by two very intimidating looking policemen, we were making good money too.

Subject: RE: BS: Buskers equipment confiscated.
From: GUEST,Just Amy
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 04:53 PM

A friend of mine and I were sitting outside the Maritime Museum rehearsing. We weren't even looking at people going by. All of a sudden the public started putting money in his guitar case (which was between us not in front of us). We made about $20 each in less than an hour. I hope there wasn't a law against it!

FYI - most USA cities license buskers so that the government has some way of knowing what income taxes they should be getting. God forbid the government should miss their cut of our little lives.

Subject: RE: BS: Buskers equipment confiscated.
From: clansfolk
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 06:05 PM

Busking is illegal or any public entertainment without a PEL if it is in a public place there are exceptions.... two in a bar rule ia a bonus for public hice (sic) allowing up to two people to perform without a PEL.

OK the law is stupid - and should be changed hence EDM 1182 - so get on to your MP and get him to sign it if you live in England - if the law is an ass sell it and buy a donkey.

www.twoinabar.co.uk

Subject: RE: BS: Buskers equipment confiscated.
From: Joan from Wigan
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 01:05 AM

Last time I was "moved on", I asked the WPC if I was breaking any laws. She confirmed that I wasn't, and that she was only asking me to move because of her Chief Superintendant's policy of "no beggars and no buskers" on the streets of Wigan. That said, it was midweek and I happened to be the only busker in town that day. On weekends when there are loads of buskers, we are generally left alone.

Joan

Subject: RE: BS: Buskers equipment confiscated.
From: Genie
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 04:00 AM

Amy, that happened to me once, too--I was just outside somewhere playing and singing for my own enjoyment, and I subsequently discovered someone had put some money in my case [or my backpack, or whatever else was lying about]. Just shows to go ya that it's not always the banter and "crowd pulling, interplay" that pleases the passers by.

Genie

PS,
I still think they should confiscate leaf blowers!

Subject: RE: BS: Buskers equipment confiscated.
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 06:06 AM

I hope that the incident serves as a warning to any "flashers" who might want to "perform" in Leicester Square !

Subject: RE: BS: Buskers equipment confiscated.
From: alanabit
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 06:53 AM

One of my favourite bottling routines started with the great Phil Free. He would swing a watch on a chain and tell the crowd he was hypnotising them. Then he would tell them that their eyelids were growing heavy. Next up, they would feel their right arms rising into the air. Then the right arms would become heavy. Then they would move slowly down into pockets to pull out wallets... It's not really funny to read about, but it was hilarious to watch. Now don't you start me off on busking routines, Les, or I'll bore the pants off you and monopolise the thread!

Subject: RE: Buskers equipment confiscated.
From: GUEST,al smith guitarist and private investigator
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 06:22 PM

What the hell is wrong with this picture can somebody stand up and tell me?Those so called official's and bureau need to be jailed or shot for human right's infringement's or put them in front a world court then take them out of society!!!

Subject: RE: Buskers equipment confiscated.
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 09:39 PM

Er... shooting those official's (sic) would be kind of harsh, wouldn't you say, Al? Not really a proportional response at all.

Plus you are 8 years too late - read the dates.

Subject: RE: Buskers equipment confiscated.
From: Effsee
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 10:52 PM

More to the point, was there ever any resolution to this problem?

Subject: RE: Buskers equipment confiscated.
From: GUEST,schrodinger
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 02:47 AM

I know, old thread-- but I'd LOVE to see some pig confiscate my equipment. I'm an acapella singer. :)

Subject: RE: Buskers equipment confiscated.
From: GUEST,Ikowmyrights
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 05:52 AM

Some of the buskers I've heard should have their equipment removed permanently ................

Subject: RE: Buskers equipment confiscated.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 06:16 PM

.... above or below the waist?

Subject: RE: Buskers equipment confiscated.
From: GUEST,Ben L pool
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 04:29 PM

In France it is part of their tradition and a way of helping those
in hard times
Music gives caracter to a city, it flavours like herbs, takes away blandnes like pepper and salt.
They need to play in stores malls, near theatres and restaurants
If they are sensetive skilfull and not to overpowering of cause.

Does anyone Know if it elegal to take ones last chance of livelyhood
away?   Does human rights mean anything in this country ?
If anyone needs an instrument might one give it trough Free Cicle ?

Subject: RE: Buskers equipment confiscated.
From: GUEST,Free wheeling
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 03:32 AM

Hey lets bomb the middle east...take peoples mind off all the children being abused in care homes by officials and covered up by the government..
Busking (people like me who earn a living by it) Ban the scum!!!

Subject: RE: Buskers equipment confiscated.
From: Mr Red
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 04:36 AM

if you have an amplifier and you want to busk in Bath UK - you are banned already.

Some miscreants decided to busk with extremely loud amplifiers outside Bath Abbey recently (last Sunday I believe) and the council have issued an edict already. The Electronics police are out in force.

The Sunday service in the Abbey was abandoned for the first time in 500 years because the congregation left ENTIRELY before the end!

As an electronic engineer I can only applaud and ask why it was not done years ago. In my town it is getting louder, we will see what transpires here. They city fathers are noted for their community concern and the look and feel of the town centre.

Subject: RE: Buskers equipment confiscated.
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 05:08 AM

It would seem that what had been going on was something of a war, with buskers competing for pitch using the amplification of their systems as a main weapon against the competition. It had been going on for some time, and the buskers had refused to cooperate, so this was simply the final straw of a problem the Cathedral had tried to live with for three years. As the offenders were playing just a few Simon and Garfunkel songs, they are now reduced to The Sound of Silence.

Mind you, if anyone tries interfering with my equipment when I'm singing in the bath, they'd better be prepared for a 4" loofah where the sun don't shine.

Subject: RE: Buskers equipment confiscated.
From: maeve
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 09:09 AM

Some information relating to the original post is here
http://www.thelawyer.com/council-deaf-to-busker039s-plea/80990.article:

Council deaf to busker's plea 28 May 1996
"By any standards, the issue of a warrant entitling Westminster City Council to seize equipment used by a busker is unusual. But the warrant issued by Bow Street Magistrates Court gave the council the right to enter London's Leicester Square and seize the equipment of busker Bruno McDonald. And as solicitor Richard Barca, representing McDonald, pointed out, it seems strange that the authority which owns Leicester Square should need a court warrant to go there.

But in the High Court, Mr Justice Dyson ruled that the council was entitled to its warrant and upheld its seizure of McDonald's equipment.

Now that decision has been overturned by the Court of Appeal. Lords Justices Schiemann and Nourse and Sir Ralph Gibson ruled that while the council was entitled to a warrant to enter a premises under the London Local Government Act 1963, Leicester Square could not be classed as a premises.

Counsel Charles Salter, on behalf of McDonald, argued in the Court of Appeal that a public place such as Leicester Square could not be legally classified as a premises and therefore the warrant used in the seizure of McDonald's equipment was invalid.

In giving the Court of Appeal judgment, Lord Justice Schiemann said it was a case which raised "questions of importance to buskers in London". He said the provisions of the 1963 Act were designed for the control of premises to which members of the public were invited for public entertainment, not for control of entertainment such as busking in public places.

And he said one oddity of the action was that if the council was right in its arguments, then it had been guilty of "persistently breaking the law" by tolerating buskers on its land.

For Barca, of two-partner, Soho-based firm Wilson Barca, the case was the latest in a long line of skirmishes with Westminster City Council; past battles have been fought on behalf of ice-cream salesmen who have found themselves targeted by the council.

But Barca said McDonald's fight is not over yet. While he has won an important ruling over the legal definition of public areas, there is a further hearing waiting in the wings. There is now a damages claim pending which the council is defending on grounds that it was entitled to rely on the warrant issued by Bow Street Magistrates Court, even though the Court of Appeal held that the warrant was unlawfully issued.

McDonald is seeking damages for damage he claims was caused to his equipment and for loss of busking earnings during the several weeks that his equipment was confiscated from him."

Subject: RE: Buskers equipment confiscated.
From: maeve
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 09:16 AM

Some youtube videos of Brian Bruno busking:

Brian Bruno Leicester Square London May 1997

Brian Bruno Dirty old town - Pogues.MTS

Brian Bruno Covent Garden 2009 - Guardian Angels, Father & Son

Subject: RE: Buskers equipment confiscated.
From: Jeri
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 10:27 AM

Wow. More than twelve years ago. Thread revived because of... er... I don't know.

Subject: RE: Buskers equipment confiscated.
From: meself
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 11:06 AM

Listened to a little bit of the 1997 clip. Guy sounds good - and loud.

Subject: RE: Buskers equipment confiscated.
From: maeve
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 11:22 AM

Yeah, Jeri. I posted because someone had asked what the outcome was, and because I too found the musician fairly skilled...and loud.