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Folklore: Shepherds' counting systems: British?
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Subject: Shepherds Counting Systems : british onl From: rich-joy Date: 09 Jun 02 - 02:49 AM Ah! that was supposed to read : british only??????????
This thread is related to parts of the "Counting Songs" thread from May 1999, which I also just refreshed ... (can some kind link pixie do a blue clicky thing here and there : puleeze!!)
see also LYR ADD : Old Molly Metcalfe
I'm STILL intrigued about these Shepherd Counting rhymes!!!
I just read a novel which mentions that in Suffolk, 1 to 10 was : unna / tina / wether / tether / pinkie / hater / skater / sara / dara / dic
The above thread mentions the songs : Old Molly Metcalfe and The Lincolnshire Shepherd (with links to), which use these fascinating systems, supposedly relics from the old Celtic languages (pre Nordic and Norman conquest) - is this still thought to be the case?? Cheers! R-J |
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Subject: RE: Shepherds Counting Systems : british onl From: rich-joy Date: 09 Jun 02 - 03:06 AM Coz I know some people often don't read the links provided(OK, myself included, I confess!!!!), I'll add in other info I have :
Lincolnshire Shepherds : 1 to 10 The "Counting Songs" thread mentions some from Sussex, Wales, Cornwall, Cumbria, and other stuff (like "eeny meeny miney mo") Cheers! R-J
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Subject: RE: Shepherds Counting Systems : british onl From: DMcG Date: 09 Jun 02 - 03:14 AM I was told about the yan-tan-tethera form by my father when I was a child in Yorkshire, but never heard it used for real (and both my father and I spent all our lives in towns, by the way) |
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Subject: RE: Shepherds Counting Systems : british onl From: C-flat Date: 09 Jun 02 - 03:42 AM I heard "yan-tan-tethera"etc. as a kid in the playground (40 years ago) in the North East but it was used as a selecting or counting out game in the style of "one potato,two potato..." I'd never realised it was an old shepherds counting system. |
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Subject: RE: Shepherds Counting Systems : british onl From: Liz the Squeak Date: 09 Jun 02 - 04:07 AM My great grandfather used to count the legs and divide by four.... and I've a picture of him doing it. LTS |
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Subject: RE: Shepherds Counting Systems : british onl From: CarolC Date: 09 Jun 02 - 04:12 AM Clicky for Counting Songs thread. Clicky for LYR ADD : Old Molly Metcalfe thread. |
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Subject: RE: Shepherds Counting Systems : british onl From: Nigel Parsons Date: 09 Jun 02 - 03:39 PM Yes, your "Lincolnshire Shepherds : 1 to 10 yan / tan / tethera / pethera / pimp / sethera / methera / hovera / covera / dik / 11 to 20 yan a dik / tan a dik / tethera dik / pethera dik / bumfits / yan a bumfits / tan a bumfits / tethera bumfits / pethera bumfits / figgits" fits in well with the Welsh Equivalent 1 to 10: Un / dau / tri / pedwar / pump / Chwecch / saith / wyth / naw / deg 11 to 20: Un ar ddeg / dau ar ddeg / tri ar ddeg / pedwar ar ddeg / pymtheg / un ar bymtheg / dau ar bymtheg / tri ar bymtheg / pedwar ar bymtheg / ugain. Nigel |
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Subject: RE: Shepherds Counting Systems : british onl From: Dead Horse Date: 09 Jun 02 - 05:37 PM Counting the legs and dividing by four is also used in Kent, but you must also take note of the colour. The red ones is liable to be foxes, ooh aagh! |
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Subject: RE: Shepherds Counting Systems : british onl From: little john cameron Date: 09 Jun 02 - 07:15 PM Jings,it is amazin whit you guys are interestit in.Countin sheep for Gawds sake!! However,ah did a wee poke aboot oan the net an' here's whit ah came up wi' Coontin |
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Subject: RE: Shepherds Counting Systems : british onl From: Snuffy Date: 09 Jun 02 - 07:37 PM Slo is all this counting in 20s how we get "keeping the score" in games? |
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Subject: RE: Shepherds Counting Systems : british onl From: rich-joy Date: 09 Jun 02 - 07:38 PM Well, LJC, I probably have an ulterior motive. Though being born and bred an Aussie, I have recently discovered that I have rellies in EnZed (kiwis!) - far South Island, no less - due to a branch of the ex-Lancashire family emigrating from Melbourne to there, around the 1850's. I now have a keen interest in matters concerning sheep ... Cheers! R-J |
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Subject: RE: Shepherds Counting Systems : british onl From: Haruo Date: 09 Jun 02 - 09:16 PM rich-joy, if you want to know about "other countries" why (try to) title the thread "british only"?! (I thought it might be "Britain Online", but no...) Anyhow, these sound similar to the American children's counting-out system "Eenie meenie miney mo", or the Norwegian one my mother knew but that I failed to memorize properly while she was still alive (it sounded more or less like "Eller meller Deg forteller, something or ooey gor, something on something spawn, snip snop tutti rutti utti", maybe some Norsky can fill in the blanks in my brain). Liland |
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Subject: RE: Shepherds Counting Systems : british onl From: little john cameron Date: 09 Jun 02 - 10:53 PM Seein as yese are too lazy tae click an' read. 1 2 3 4 5
Keswick. yan tyan tethera methera pimp.
Westmorland. yan tyan tetherie peddera gip.
Eskdale. yaena taena teddera meddera pimp.
Millom. aina peina para pedera pimp.
High Furness. yan taen tedderte medderte pimp
Wasdale. yan taen tudder anudder nimph
Teesdale. yan tean tetherma metherma pip
Swaledale yahn tayhn tether mether mimp(h)
Wensleydale yan tean tither mither pip
Ayrshire yinty tinty tetheri metheri bamf
6 7 8 9 0 15
Keswick sethera lethera hovera dovera dick bumfit
Westmorland teezie mithy katra hornie dick bumfit
Eskdale hofa lofa seckera leckera dec bumfit
Millom ithy mithy owera lowera dig bumfit
High Furness haata slaata lowera dowra dick mimph
Wasdale ..........not given.....
Teesdale lezar azar catrah horna dick bumfit
Swaledale hith-her lith-her anver danver dic mimphit
Wensleydale teaser leaser catra horna dick bumper
Ayrshire leetera seetera over dover dik - -
Among children's counting out games they found the following; observe these seem to count in fours, probably to suit the rhyme
[Edinburgh]"Inty, tinty, tethery, methery; Bank for over, dover, ding .."
[London] "Eena, deena, dus; cattala, wheela, wheila, wus; spit, spot, must be done.
[Cincinnati] een, teen, tother, feather, fib, soter, oter, poter, debber, dick
[Vermont] eeni, teni, tudheri, fedheri, fip, saidher, taidher, koadher, daidher, dik
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Subject: RE: Shepherds Counting Systems : british onl From: Mr Happy Date: 10 Jun 02 - 06:00 AM refresh |
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Subject: RE: Shepherds Counting Systems : british onl From: rich-joy Date: 10 Jun 02 - 06:14 AM Thanks LJC for that great link - I DID read that one!!! Liland - I did try to explain at the beginning of the thread that my question marks got left off the "british only" part of the name : haven't got used to the allowable length of the thread names!!! I should first count the characters on some others, I guess ... Thanks to all contributers so far - I appreciate it. Cheers! R-J |
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Subject: RE: Shepherds Counting Systems : british onl From: Steve Parkes Date: 10 Jun 02 - 10:57 AM "Score" means a mark on a stick. Folks would make notches on a stick called a tally for accounts and the like; they'd cut the stick in two lengthways, and each would keep one half. If either tried to alter his copy, it would no longer tally with the other, so it was a fraud-free method. Can't quite remember the "score=20" thing, but it was literally the case--but probably nothing to do with tallies. I've always wondered why shepherds couldn't just go "one-two-three..." (in whatever language they spoke) like everybody else. Wasi it to keep fom falling asleep? And what sort of size limit would there be on a flock? I guess no-one would have thousands, but hundreds may have been a possiblility, especially if they were communal herds (i.e. everyone's small flock, duly marked, kept on the same grazing).
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Subject: RE: Shepherds Counting Systems : british onl From: GUEST,pavane Date: 11 Jun 02 - 02:46 AM |
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Subject: RE: Shepherds Counting Systems : british onl From: GUEST,pavane Date: 11 Jun 02 - 02:50 AM Just to explain, in Welsh, the letter u is usually pronounced as i, so pump (5) is pronounced PIMP. (and Llandudno is pronounced Llandidno) |
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Subject: RE: Shepherds Counting Systems : british onl From: Steve Parkes Date: 11 Jun 02 - 03:19 AM Hlandidno, surely? |
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Subject: RE: Shepherds Counting Systems : british onl From: Steve Parkes Date: 11 Jun 02 - 03:22 AM Arthur Haynes: Hlepherd's Bush! Nicholas Parsons: There is no "L" in Sheperd's Bush! Arthur Haynes: You wnat to try living there! Sorry! A memory came flooding back to me just then ... Steve |
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Subject: RE: Shepherds Counting Systems : british onl From: Mr Happy Date: 11 Jun 02 - 03:23 AM pavane, if you know about welsh language & counting, can you explain 'saith ar' y bymtheg' as a whole number i heard it means something like 7 + 15=22 why would they use n+n=product, if there's already a named number for the same thing? (or am i up a gumtree?)
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Subject: RE: Shepherds Counting Systems : british onl From: sian, west wales Date: 11 Jun 02 - 04:29 AM There wouldn't be a "saith ar bymtheg" as it changes when you get to twenty (ugain, or dau ddeg). And although tri ar bymtheg (18) is correct, I've never heard it used; it's usually either the 'new' fashion of "un deg wyth" or the (what I've always thought of as..) 'old style' "deunaw" (two nines). sian |
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Subject: RE: Shepherds Counting Systems : british onl From: Nigel Parsons Date: 11 Jun 02 - 04:32 AM Mr Happy: you have been correctly informed, as with the above explanations, just as twenty is considered a basic number, so is fifteen. (possibly because of the divisions on clocks) so 'saith ar bymtheg' woud be the same as 'dau ar hugain' (2+20). The putting of the smaller unit first is not unknown in English either. "Five and twenty ponies" (Kipling); "Four and twenty blackbirds baked in a pie" etc. The counting by scores (20s) continues in Welsh. Ugain(or hugain) is twenty, Deugain (two 20s) is forty; trigain (three 20s) or Chwe deg (six 10s), Pedwar ugain is eighty If you want to fully confuse the counting system, you need to come up with weird ways of describing numbers without using base 5 or base 10. Eighteen is sometimes given as Deunaw (two 9s). In the pre-decimal currency days, this was a common term for One shilling & sixpence (i.e. one and a half shillings, eighteen pence). Also known as Swllt a Chwech (shilling and six) |
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Subject: RE: Shepherds Counting Systems : british onl From: Nigel Parsons Date: 11 Jun 02 - 04:33 AM Sian: you beat me to it whilst I was typing a longer screed. Nigel |
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Subject: RE: Shepherds Counting Systems : british onl From: Steve Parkes Date: 11 Jun 02 - 05:30 AM And the French have quatre vingts dix = four score and ten. "Eleven" means "one left [after ten]", and twelve "two left". I remember "eighteen pence" was common for "one and six" (but not "nineteen pence"); I still say "fifty bob" [fifty shillings, or two pounds ten shillings] for two pounds fifty; it used to be common to quote prices in shillings instead of (one or two) pounds. And while there's sense in having twelve pence in a shilling or sixteen ounces in a pound, how about fourteen pounds in a stone, or twenty-eight pounds in a quarter? Some of the weird multiples in UK weights and measures are due to two or more independent systems being "unified" in past centuries. Sorry to shed more darkeness on the subject! Steve |
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Subject: RE: Shepherds Counting Systems : british onl From: Mr Happy Date: 11 Jun 02 - 05:43 AM more confusing systems exist in germany. when i was there, it was explained that when telling the time, it's usual to say something like, 'it's ten minutes past half past three' when they mean twenty to four. comments? |
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Subject: RE: Shepherds Counting Systems : british onl From: Mr Red Date: 11 Jun 02 - 06:46 AM And I always thought Ll was pronounced (via a diversion of air into the cheeks a la Winston Churchill) ch Hence how Cheddar got its anglisised name. Have I been pronouncing Llanfair PG wrong all this time? Ok OK that's easy for you to say! |
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Subject: RE: Shepherds Counting Systems : british onl From: GUEST,Pavane Date: 11 Jun 02 - 07:09 AM Ll is NOT ch, whatever else it may be. The Welsh do have ch, similar to Scots. The origin of the name Floyd may be mispronounced Lloyd? As I am English (Londoner), and not a Welsh speaker at all, I am not the best person to comment on all the Welsh numbers. However, it is also possible that other branches of Brythonic Celtic did use numbers differently. I remember reading somewhere that Hickory Dickory Dock was Druidic for 8,9,10. How on earth anyone would know is a mystery to me, and no historical reference was given.
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Subject: RE: Shepherds Counting Systems : british onl From: sian, west wales Date: 11 Jun 02 - 07:12 AM Nigel, longer, and more comprehensive! Mr. Red: LL is as described (as much as it can be described) so presumably you're been pronouncing Llanfair PG correctly,at least in this regard; CH is as in the German, ie, "Bach". What's with the Cheddar reference? (Tho' not to encourage thread drift) sian
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Subject: RE: Shepherds Counting Systems : british onl From: Mr Happy Date: 11 Jun 02 - 07:16 AM could be 'cheddar' is 'chether?' or 'llether?' if not- hard cheese |
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Subject: RE: Shepherds Counting Systems : british onl From: Nigel Parsons Date: 11 Jun 02 - 07:27 AM Mr Red: The Ll is pronounced by moving the tongue to the roof of the mouth, leaving only a small gap above it, then exhaling so that most of the air passes under the tongue, with a small amount getting in above the tongue. The tungue is then brought down to touch the front lower teeth while pronouncing a 'soft' 'L'. This is probably documented somewhere, but I have just been typing this while repeatedly naming that place on Anglesey, and analysing my mouth movements. Mr Happy: The Dutch (o.k. the Netherlanders, I know 'Dutch' only covers part of their country) give a confusing telling of the time. They avoid saying the equivalent of "before" or "after" when stating the half hours, But When they say their equivalent of "Half Twelve" you need to remember that they mean "Half to Twelve" i.e. Half Eleven to us. Their 'ten tos' and 'ten pasts' match ours (to = 'voor'; past = achter or over) but the also use the half hour as a standard, so it is not unknown to hear the time given as "tien voor half twelf" i.e. 10 before Half Twelve. i.e. 11.20. Similarly 'Tien over half twelf' would be 11.40 Apologies to any Nederlands speakers for misspellings. Migel |
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Subject: RE: Shepherds Counting Systems : british onl From: BanjoRay Date: 11 Jun 02 - 11:18 AM As a guy who's only language was Welsh until he was five, here's my take on it. To pronounce LL, touch the roof of your mouth just behind the front teeth and exhale without using the vocal chords. If you use the vocal chords, it becomes L. So to say Llanfair, you don't start using the vocal chords till you get to the first a Get practicing! |
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Subject: RE: Shepherds Counting Systems : british onl From: Nigel Parsons Date: 11 Jun 02 - 12:46 PM BanjoRay: I defer to one who has Cymraeg as his 'mother tongue' Nigel |
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Subject: RE: Shepherds Counting Systems : british onl From: Nigel Parsons Date: 28 Jun 02 - 04:51 AM Having just received the details for naxt year's UK 'Filk' convention Quinze I am reminded that the French count up to 16 using single word numbers 1Un 2deux 3trois 4quatre 5cinq 6six 7sept 8huit 9neuf 10dix 11onze 12douze 13treize 14quatorze 15quinze 16seize This seems even more strange as they clearly use base 10 for numbers above 16 17dix-sept 18dix-huit 19dix-neuf |
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Subject: RE: Shepherds Counting Systems : british onl From: greg stephens Date: 28 Jun 02 - 04:57 AM yes, but do they have sheep-counting rhymes? |
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Subject: RE: Shepherds Counting Systems : british onl From: Steve Parkes Date: 28 Jun 02 - 11:38 AM But the french system clearly follows a similar pattern to the English: un-ze, deux-ze, trois-ze, etc. |
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Subject: RE: Shepherds Counting Systems : british onl From: Steve Parkes Date: 28 Jun 02 - 11:41 AM Oops--cut off in me prime! I was going to add: does anyone know the derivation of the "ze" bit? Steve |
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Subject: RE: Shepherds Counting Systems : british onl From: rich-joy Date: 29 Jun 02 - 02:07 AM keep trying, greg!!! (I'd like to know too) |
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Subject: RE: Shepherds Counting Systems : british onl From: GUEST,Penny S. (elsewhere) Date: 11 Apr 03 - 07:21 AM Have just refreshed this to reconstitute my totally vanished literacy worksheet on counting and counting out rhymes, and noticed that nobody had answered the 20 = score part of the system. A flock of sheep has many ewes, lambs etc, too many to tally individually, so, the rhymes are used up to 20, then the mark is made on a stick. Each tally mark stands for 20. The mark, or cut, is also known as a score - think of scoring card to fold it cleanly, so the score = cut becomes score = 20. To find the total number of sheep, count the tally marks, multiply by 20, and add the odd ones left over at the end. You can do the stick splitting bit if you are rendering accounts, as well. Scoring becomes a synonym for a recorded count, hence is used for game results and so on. Penny |
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Subject: RE: Shepherds Counting Systems : british onl From: Nigel Parsons Date: 12 Dec 06 - 12:52 PM Refresh* |
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Subject: RE: Shepherds Counting Systems : british only???? From: GUEST,thurg Date: 12 Dec 06 - 09:17 PM Here's a sight concerned with sheep-counting: http://www.slaidburn.org.uk/counting_sheep.htm ... You're welcome! |
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Subject: Folklore: Shepherds' counting systems: British? From: Nigel Parsons Date: 06 Jun 18 - 10:59 AM Refresh |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Shepherds' counting systems: British? From: Nigel Parsons Date: 06 Jun 18 - 11:31 AM English also uses base 20 numbers: Five and twenty Ponies, The ball of Kerrymuir The Bible: the years of a man are three-score years and ten etcetera. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Shepherds' counting systems: British? From: David Carter (UK) Date: 06 Jun 18 - 02:43 PM I am trying to work out whether the biblical three score and 10 is a literal translation, but am stymied by search engines throwing up vast strings of sites which seem to regard the King James version as the original. Does anyone know what it says in Hebrew? Or even whether the psalms were originally in Hebrew or some earlier semitic language? |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Shepherds' counting systems: British? From: GUEST,henryp Date: 06 Jun 18 - 03:30 PM From The Phrase Finder; Threescore goes back to at least 1388, as in this from John Wyclif's Bible, Leviticus 12, at that date: "Thre scoor and sixe daies." From Wikipedia; The text translated in the various versions of the Wycliffe Bible was the Latin Vulgate. Psalm 90:10-12 King James Version (KJV); The days of our years are threescore years and ten From Wikipedia; The King James Version (KJV), also known as the Authorized Version (AV), is an English translation of the Christian Bible for the Church of England, begun in 1604 and completed in 1611. Like Tyndale's translation and the Geneva Bible, the Authorized Version was translated primarily from Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic texts, although with secondary reference both to the Latin Vulgate, and to more recent scholarly Latin versions; two books of the Apocrypha were translated from a Latin source. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Shepherds' counting systems: British? From: David Carter (UK) Date: 06 Jun 18 - 05:00 PM Sure, but there is older stuff than Vulgate about. Such as Codex Vaticanus, although that is Greek not Hebrew. And Septuagint, and Peshitta. But I am not sure that there are extant Hebrew versions of the Old Testament from earlier. So I am not sure whether Threescore and Ten is a translation of an original Hebrew phrase, or of Vulgate, or whether Wyclif made it up. The problem is that churches get to be theologically possessive about translations. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Shepherds' counting systems: British? From: GUEST,henryp Date: 06 Jun 18 - 06:00 PM What is the oldest record of 'three score' that you have found? If the earliest record of 'three score' is by Wycliffe in 1388, in a translation from the Latin Vulgate, then that suggests it is not a direct translation from the Hebrew. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Shepherds' counting systems: British? From: David Carter (UK) Date: 07 Jun 18 - 02:35 AM What does it say in the Latin Vulgate then? I don't have a copy and I don't read Latin. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Shepherds' counting systems: British? From: Joe Offer Date: 08 Jun 18 - 12:58 AM Here's the Vulgate, in which it's Psalm 89:10:
-Joe, 70 (almost)- |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Shepherds' counting systems: British? From: David Carter (UK) Date: 08 Jun 18 - 02:43 AM Thanks Joe. So the phrase "threescore and ten" is Wyclif's, or otherwise it was in use earlier than his Bible. So I was wrong to cast doubt that it was an English phrase. |
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