BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: KateG
Date: 06 Mar 03 - 07:02 PM

Womanly jiggles....go for it (within reason, of course). After all, fashion designers design clothes for very lean women for two reasons: 1) it's easier, and 2) they prefer women who look like the true objects of their desire...adolescent boys.

Let's face it, most of the clothes designed today would look TERRIBLE on the pin up girls of the WW2 era! And those women were WOMEN!!!

And from the other perspective, I like a man with a bit of padding to snuggle against.

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: beadie
Date: 06 Mar 03 - 12:24 PM

- - - - -    24 ????

If that's the hill, I've been over it twice and I'm getting ready to start up the third time.

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Genie
Date: 06 Mar 03 - 12:15 PM

Congratulations, Hesperis! It's refreshing to know that some young women recognize that you don't have to look like a twig to be beautiful. (Mind you, I think your pic in the 2001 calendar looks great, as you do in your other Mudcat photos, but I can easily imagine another few pounds making you even sexier -- especially if those pounds make you healthier.)

And I second the comment: "Over the hill at 24? No way!"

Genie

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: gnu
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 05:37 PM

Maybe because us Canucks appreciate women that are built for the cold. Or just built the way god intended. Not the way the magazines intended... for selling clothes.... that don't fit real women anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 11:56 AM

Hey hesperis! Good for you!

I stand by what I said about Canadian men. I married one in October, and I feel much more comfortable with my body now than I did with any of the other men I've been with (all from the US).

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Kim C
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 11:38 AM

Late bloomer at 24? I don't think so.

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: beadie
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 10:14 AM

Show me a pretty little number,

When she walks, she rolls like thunder,

Eyes as dark as the deep blue sea.

Round right here and round back there,

Pretty red lips and her very own hair,

Wrap her up, she's the natural girl for me.

- Tom Paxton -

[It's in the Digitrad]

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Sam L
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 10:02 AM

Good for you Hesperis--man I was on a thread-killing spree for a while there!
I've always wondered whether pretty people got to enjoy it, or whether it was really more fun for everyone else, while the bearer still felt more or less like me.

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: hesperis
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 06:28 AM

I totally agree about adolescence... and that often that time is quite wasted in school. People need to start taking charge of their own lives at that age, and so often the school and their parents get in the way. It's really sad.

However, even knowing that, and having the support of my parents, I'm only beginning to hit my stride now, at age 24. Maybe I'm a late bloomer? It's sad though that I still get judged as less experienced or less able to cope with life because of my youth... (I went to the bank to enquire about opening a business bank account, and they told me rather patronizingly that I had to have a business registration form first! I've been living on my own since age 18, and have been studying entrepreneurship and running my own businesses since before then! They probably thought I was 16-17 because I wasn't wearing makeup... but I hate wearing makeup because it makes my skin break out even worse. Then I look younger. Arrrgh.)

Back to the subject of jiggles - I gained weight this year, it doesn't seem to be coming off finally, and I am really happy about it. Only about ten pounds, but I feel like a woman now, not a stick. I was a little too skinny in high school, so everyone thought I looked pretty good, but the skinniness wasn't healthy in my case, and I've always said I'd be that much better with 10-20 more pounds. I look REALLY good now! I'm pretty happy with my figure. Ok, even a little vain, but hey, it's all a part of sexy confidence, right? ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: GUEST,Fred Miller
Date: 13 Aug 02 - 10:01 AM

Well, Genie, I was about to say that it seemed a little late in this particular thread to notice it was getting away from musical concerns, and then I was going to say that I think tossing around these odd topics serves a perfectly good purpose for songwriters--but you make the point better.

The thing that I've found interesting about this is that it's harder to say something that isn't a current recieved idea--you can subscribe to it or counter it, but still the discussion is framed by a prevailing set of perceptions. (I mistook what Blackcatter had to say for something else that I've often heard--I heard what I think some people think.)

It's probably a weakness in my original songs that I like too many specifics and details, want songs to be more like short-stories than they can be, and the main ideas can get lost in the mix. I have a recent song called My Fat Friend that I've been thinking about in regard to this thread. May post it soon to see what comes across.

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Genie
Date: 11 Aug 02 - 03:35 PM

Maryrrf, ("...that's what drugs like speed or cocaine do...") -- Come to think of it, that's what alcohol does (not only makes the drinker feel more confident but makes everyone else look good, too!)

Fred, yeah, we could do a whole nuther coupla three threads on the concepts of childhood & adolescence, child labor laws, etc. [a subset of my area of specialization in a former life], but Ye Olde Mudcat Café is supposed to be dedicated to folk music and blues, so out of respect for Max I'll forego doing that.

Just to bring this thread back to the folk music/blues realm, here's an extra verse I made up to sing to "Skillet Good And Greasy":

Well, I'm goin' down town,
Gonna buy me a sack of candy,
Bring it home to Sandy,
Keep 'im good, plump, and squeezy all the time, time, time,
Good, plump, and squeezy,
Good, plump, and squeezy,
Good and plump and squeezy all the time.
 

Genie

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: GUEST,Fred Miller
Date: 11 Aug 02 - 02:11 PM

Blackcatter, I'm very glad you understood it was an apology--after I sent it I worried my goofiness about it might have muddled that.

But I think the Venus of W., more so than many other figures, had to be observed from life. I don't think it much affects your point, and you make another good point that we have to take such representations not necesarily as observed norms--just as with the case today. But in that one piece I feel the knees, the ankles... it just has that quality of observation. The same way one feels a degree of random specificity in a movie intones something of a memoir source. But that's just my feeling.

Apart from the historical reasons you outlined I think there's probably a lot to the implication--I think Genie suggested it--that the cultural obsession with thinness has a backlash effect on us.

I once decided to try to get rid of a bit of belly, just to know I was able, and I exercised, paid attention to what I ate, for the 1rst time. And nothing happened. I got to be able to do many many exercise reps, but that wasn't something I much cared to do. Then, finally, what happened was, my belly began to develop like a bicep muscle bulge--again, not something I hoped for. So I quit all that, and months later, the bit of belly was gone. For a while.

My conclusion is either (a.) chocolate doughnuts and french fries are the most effective way for me to slim down, or (b.) the exercise had strengthened my muscles so that I came to rely on them more, after I quit the exercise, just in the way I did things, the way I'd stand, etc., and that the effect is sort of indirect-- rather like Shaw's aesthetic idea that literary beauty is a by-product of other activity. I lost interest in the question beyond that.

There are times when one has more mental energy to percieve different kinds of looks than whatever happens to be fashionable, which is only just the easiest, laziest thing to recognize and appreciate. A more open way of looking is kind of a restorative state of mind, like how a while in the woods puts petty concerns out of one's head, free-floating anxieties dissolve. I've always found nude life-drawing to be a de-tox process, like that, but you have to do it without caring much to make finished pieces, just for it's own sake.

Genie, I think that notion of adolescence is maybe most damaging in education, where young men and women are considered as 'preparing for life' when they are very much alive, and their intense energies just can't be bottled in some existential formaldehyde. The sad thing about child-labor laws is that it's good if kids can have healthy little jobs. Enough time in schools is disengaged waste motion anyway, or was for me. I'm sure lots of people had better experiences, though.

There's something about this topic that seems to bring up everything else.

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Maryrrf
Date: 11 Aug 02 - 11:19 AM

Genie, Yes, I think you have it right about confidence. But conversely, there are people who objectively speaking are very attractive by any standards, normal weight, etc. but who have a poor self image and THEY don't think they're attractive. It usually stems from being overweight or having some other appearance problem in childhood or adolescence. Those people tend to have the same problems as "unattractive" people when it comes to getting dates or finding a partner. I remember a letter once to Ann Landers (may she RIP) from a woman who freely admitted that she was very overweight. But, she said she dressed stylishly, making no effort to hide her figure, was outgoing and friendly, and had no problem getting boyfriends. As a matter of fact she said she'd just been on a European vacation with her (slim) boyfriend and was hit on by several other men, much to his chagrin. Her final comment "I feel attractive, act like I'm attractive, and I'm treated as such!" By the way if you find a way to bottle that confidence formula I'll be your first customer! (Actually, that's probably what drugs like speed or cocaine do - so maybe I'll pass, now that I think about it!). This has been an interesting thread!

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 11 Aug 02 - 07:43 AM

Fred wrote "There was a time in Russian literature when a beautiful heroine's eyes were always black. If you wrote something else you were apparently not a very good writer. I don't know if most Russians then much preferred black eyes, but some probably came around, on at least some superficial level, to sort of go along with it as a general preference. Maybe it was nice to be seen courting a black-eyed girl. "

There is exactly the same cultural preference in Glasgow. Except normally the woman has only one black eye.

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Genie
Date: 11 Aug 02 - 03:55 AM

Jeri, I think you're right about the attractiveness of people who exude self-acceptance and self-confidence.  Unfortunately, a major source of one's self-image is the reactions of others (especially during the "formative" years).  If you grow up constantly bombarded with information that says that (a) appearance is very important, and (b) your appearance is not attractive, it is a lot harder to have that kind of self-confidence than if one or both of those messages were less pronounced.  I have known people of both sexes who were, in an "objective" sense, not much to look at but who were extremely comfortable in their own skins and conveyed a great sense of confidence in their own sexual attractiveness.  If I knew how you get that kind of confidence, I'd bottle it and make a fortune!

Blackcatter, I don't think you and I disagree much on the issue of culturally accepted shapes.

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 11 Aug 02 - 12:11 AM

Hi Fred - thanks for the apology, I appreciated it. We were talking at corss purposes - I didn't make myself clear in the initial post. All I was saying was that it took fairly modern history to make obesity really possible. I wasn't talking about skinny - but definately more like the average shape of men and women athletes today - not the extremes, of course, but healthy without a lot of fat.

As for the Venus of Willendorf and other early goddess figures, there's plent with row after row or breasts, ones without any recognizable facial features, without realistic limbs, etc. The common opinion is that they weren't based on real women, but were exagerated to focus on the aspects of fertility. The same way many god figurines have phalluses as long as their arms (insert joke here).

I am bothered by the thinness issue in the U.S. today. My girlfriend is 5'6" and weighs 110lbs. She occasionally talks about how she should try to loose a bit of weight. On the other hand, I'm 6'2" and weight 215 - and even with a bit of a belly, I'm totally comfortable with my size.

pax yall

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Jeri
Date: 10 Aug 02 - 09:24 PM

Genie wrote "Jeri, I think one reason guys aren't bothered by cracks (no pun intented) about their physiques is that they are far less likely to be rejected by the opposite sex because of them than women are."

I don't think we're anywhere near as likely to be rejected as we believe we are. Men can buy into the media image of "the ideal woman" but the real problem is we women buy into it and constantly compare ourselves to it. Most of my life I wanted to be pretty and skinny. It wasn't gonna happen (not without a whole lot of surgery) because it just wasn't ME. I don't believe anyone is very attractive, at least not for long, if they can't be happy in their own bodies.

I agree with Fred Miller. The most attractive people are the ones who seem at home in their own skin. That grace borne of a quiet confidence is the biggest aphrodesiac.

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Aug 02 - 08:34 PM

Amergin - is that a note of desperaration? Did LTS not make it across the pond to you?

G

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Genie
Date: 10 Aug 02 - 08:29 PM

Fred, I completely agree about historical concepts of childhood and adulthood. The concept of "adolescence," in fact, is considered by social scientists to be pretty much a modern phenomenon that wasn't recognized until after child labor laws and public education became widespread.

As an aside, the in-some-ways distorted nature of our concept of "adolescence" is reflected in the misuse of the term "pedophile" to refer to adults who molest under(legal)age "children." While molesting anyone is and should be a crime, as is an adult taking advantage of the inexperience and lack of judgment of adolescents, it is not a "perversion" or a "psychosexual disorder" to be sexually attracted to pubescent teenagers (especially when they dress and move like Britney Spears). Such attraction is part of our biological programming.

Back to the point of the thread: I agree about "art" and "nature," too. I'm not sure Rubens's ladies were any more typical of real women of their era than Twiggy was of the women of hers. But I don't think there have been many cultures/populations in the history of humankind where the average, healthy, properly nourished female, after bearing a child or two, was shaped much like today's top models are.

Genie

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: GUEST,Fred Miller
Date: 10 Aug 02 - 08:06 PM

Genie, I think you're right about the statistics of life-expectancy, but I do think also that younger people were considered mature in terms of responsibility, compared to today. Today behavior is still excused as "youthful" until quite into adulthood. Some think this was sometimes reflected in past depictions of children proportioned simply as miniature adults. The art that most resonated with people and is in the history books sometimes gives an impression that it was simply the way people painted back then, but often more naturalistic but less stylistically interesting work was being done at the same time, less notably.

I've heard that Japanese has nine words for particular kinds of beauty. I don't know what they are, but I like the general implications of it.

I have a theory that being very particular about what one likes and doesn't is a sign of desperation. Look at the spec lists in personals ads. It doesn't seem logical that desperation would make one more picky, but so it goes.

In guys I've always liked the swimmer's build, good tone, but not too much of that puffy bodybuilder muscle. I'm not really attracted to guys but have a notion of which ones I think are attractive. I've always kind of liked the long hair. The most appealing thing in guys, jiggly or not, is that ease with themselves, of not having anything to prove. I think you can see that in a person's physicality, and you often find it in combat vets, and in public performers--'modern' dancers almost invariably seem to have it.

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Amergin
Date: 10 Aug 02 - 02:32 PM

sigh...why don't some of you girls just jiggle your way out to oregon? ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: SINSULL
Date: 10 Aug 02 - 02:03 PM

SINSULL lives to jiggle another day. After two weeks of being poked, prodded, squeezed into inch thick layers, and slimed with ultrasound jelly, I have been pronounced cancer-free. False alarms like this make me wonder about the wisdom of an annual mammogram. The stress has shortened my life by at least three months and turned a dozen more hairs gray...but I slept thorough the night last night. And made contact with a doctor who can cut these babies down to size, quite literally, if I decide to go that route voluntarily.

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Genie
Date: 10 Aug 02 - 02:06 AM

A few responses to posts earlier in the thread:

¥  Stilly, are you sure Marilyn Monroe wore "what today is size 14?"  I'm considerably plumper than she was and within a couple of inches of her height (I don't think she was over 5'6"), and I wear a 12 in most things ( a 10 in some).  (Marilyn may have been more amply endowed in the bosom than I am, but she definitely was not in the waist and hips.)  The clothing manufacturers have in effect "shrunk" the sizes, no doubt to make us women feel thinner.  E.g., when I was a teenager, I never heard of a "size 2," and a size 6 was considered quite teensy.  Also, I think they've increased the sizing on bras.  I can remember when a B cup was a pretty substantial size; now it seems like "C" is kind of average.
Mae West, of course, was a siren of different proportions.  (My early adolescent form would've been a big hit in the late 19th C.!)

¥  Carol C., you said it!  Why is it that guys can look like Danny DeVito, Marlon Brando (the older version), or Jerry Richards ("Kramer" on "Seinfeld") and still "get the girl" (in the movie and in real life) yet women are continually berated as "too skinny" (e.g., Calista Flockhart) or "too fat" (e.g.,Oprah Winfrey)?  [BTW, I can't believe you're 46!

¥  Jeri, I think one reason guys aren't bothered by cracks (no pun intented) about their physiques is that they are far less likely to be rejected by the opposite sex because of them than women are.

¥   Mousethief, ("Thank God for sexual reproduction!")  How about "Thank God for sex without reproduction!"?  *G*

¥  What Kim C,and MMario said, Spaw!  ( I think ya got the makin's of a heart-rending country love song there.)  (I mean the posts about yer missiz, not the posts about the NYCFTTS.)
 

Back to the main point of the thread.  OTBE, I'd rather cuddle with a guy who has a thin layer of subcutaneous fat than one with little or none.  That kind of fat makes you cuddlier (but it doesn't necessarily make you jiggle).  But when it comes to individual men, I've been "smitten" with skinny ones, beer-bellied ones, and various shapes in between.
 

Blackcatter, I'd hardly call your points BS, but I do disagree on several of your conclusions.  In non-technological societies, among people who do physical labor of some sort all their lives, there seems always to have been a range of body types, and women have tended to become more pear-shaped as they have borne and nursed children.  The "healthiest" shape, in fact, in some respects is the pear shape for women (statistically speaking).  (Not talking extremes here, just talking about women who have more padding around the hips and abdomen than a similarly healthy man would.)  Our current western society seems to favor women whose bodies are not representative of a healthy, fertile female --except for the boobs.  We glorify women with slender hips, very flat abdomens, and tiny butts, who are wider at the shoulder than the hips -- and who often have to resort to implants to have a large bosom in conjunction with those traits.
[As for our ancestors being "old" at 40, that concept is in large part the same kind of misconception as the idea that the "average couple has 2.3 children.  The average life expectancy used to be quite low largely because of infant mortality, because of women dying in childbirth, and because of people at all ages dying of infectuous diseases and complications from injuries.  If you made it to 40, you very well might have had more wrinkles than today's westerners do (because of more exposure to the sun), but you probably had not lived a sedentary life and would probably not have been as out of shape as an awful lot of middle-aged people are in industrialized societies.  The relevant question is not "What were your chances, at birth, of living to age 80 ?"  but "What were your chances of living to age 80, given that you made it to adulthood and, if female, through the childbearing years?"]
 

Genie

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 09 Aug 02 - 12:13 PM

Rubens had it right. Happy and zaftig are good. Uncomfortable is bad. Take it from there.

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: GUEST,Fred
Date: 09 Aug 02 - 11:24 AM

Well, I think we're talking about different things. By calling your idea b.s I meant only to disagree with you as much as I like, not to insult you in any way. No offense intended--this is, after all, a b.s. thread. But are you saying that if I am an expert, I can therefore feel free to insult you? What would that mean? I was talking about skinny or a bit of jiggles, by contemporary standards, and trying to say that that I think there's shadings, stylistic intonations, complexity in our perceptions of fashionable idealization--what I disagree with most is that it's simple. I didn't exactly say today's models are too skinny, I don't know which of them are simply skinny, or trying too hard to be skinny--just that it doesn't represent a model of health for everyone. Skinny can be as attractive as anything else, I think, and some people are skinny. I don't know about their menstrual cycles and don't think it's any of my damn business--that's what gets me. This Health b.s., everyone is everyone else's damn Doctor. I think it's come to be a commonplace pretext for gross rudeness. You seem to be talking about obesity vs a generally healthy range, which may vary from person to person, and from time to time, so I'll defer to your expertise, despite the Venus of Willendorf, ca. 25,000 b.c., and those fertility goddesses scattered about 5 and 6,000 bc, etc. They may have been observed from royalty, as you say. But, really--you introduced this in a discussion of "jiggles" and then link it in some evolutionary way to health, which sounded like a pseudo-logical support for those models who you find too skinny, as instead, a healthy ideal. I see that's not what you meant, but people often say things like that, and it's silly, it's out of proportion to the question. Don't you think? I took the question to be aesthetic, and historically, ideals of women have mostly tended to be jiggly. There was a time in Russian literature when a beautiful heroine's eyes were always black. If you wrote something else you were apparently not a very good writer. I don't know if most Russians then much preferred black eyes, but some probably came around, on at least some superficial level, to sort of go along with it as a general preference. Maybe it was nice to be seen courting a black-eyed girl. That's the kind of thing I was talking about, and I suppose I misunderstood you as trying to ramify today's idealization as a simple and sensible preference. I'm not even sure it really is a general preference, except in that reified sense. I meant no offence, really. Fred

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 09 Aug 02 - 10:07 AM

OK, what about manly jiggles???? I don't like my men to be too skinny. I like something to grab hold of when I want a hug!!!

Cat

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: GUEST,maryrrf
Date: 09 Aug 02 - 10:04 AM

Well, I think moderation in all things is the key here - but the "ideal" that is usually held up for women by the media is not average or moderate but skinny. A couple of days ago I saw an advertisement for a weight loss product with a headline of "I went from a size 12 to a size 6!". My question - WHAT'S WRONG WITH A SIZE 12??? That's not huge, it's probably pretty near average. As an American I find it puzzling that from every side we are bombarded with the need to be thin and fit - just look at the magazine covers when you're standing in line at the supermarket - "10 days to flat abs" "Excercises to trim your butt" "Easy low fat recipes" "Drop two sizes in two weeks" - I'd venture that there isn't a woman's magazine on the shelf at any given point that doesn't contain advice on weight loss. The fact remains that even with all this hype and emphasis on thinness, there are a lot of overweight people in the US. Maybe we just need to stop obsessing, because it certainly isn't doing any good! I would classify myself as averagely jiggly and okay with it!

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 09 Aug 02 - 02:03 AM

A few points

1) I didn't mean to imply "skinny" - just slender. - I agree most models today are too skinny - the fact that many of them do not menstruate is proof enough about their over-all health.

2) If you study anthropology you will find that people thousands of years ago rarely had a chance to eat to excess. They also had to work hard to get the food they needed, which meant they burned a lot of calories.

3) Looking at remote communities in Africa, South America and Asia, one sees people who are a great deal more physically fit that you average American or European. While these people are not exactly living the way our ancestors did 300 years ago, they are similar in many ways. They rarely have an abundance of food and usually have to work hard to get it.

4) look at the animals - especially the primates - with the exception of the gorilla few of them have a high body-fat to muscle ratio.

5) You are right - there are body types, but those body types have little to do with the extremes of today's weights. Pot bellies, huge rear-ends and rolls of fat everywhere on the body have little to do with body types. Show me examples of art over 1500 years old that depicts "fat" people with the exception of some royalty.

6) Today, we accept that the tradional roles of our ancestors - women as care givers and collectors and men as protectors and hunters still have very strong echos in 2002. What people are looking for in a partner is unwittingly, vey similar to what our ancestors looked for 2000, 5000, 10,000, 50,000 years ago. To ignore millions of years (including our pre-human ancestors) of behavior is foolish. We look for someone who can take care of themselves, potentially take care of us and children. We take into account intelligence, wits, adaptability, health, and strength. Health includes having a fit body. We are visual creatures and without knowing it, we judge everyone we meet of the opposite (or same) sex as a potential mate.

Unless you are an expert on the subject, I think you should refrain from calling my ideas B.S. - disagree with me all you like, but do not insult me in that way. I have an M.A. in Folklore which is a dicipline of anthropology and have studied the field of early cultures for 15 years.

pax yall

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: GUEST,fred
Date: 08 Aug 02 - 06:02 PM

Blackcatter, I think none of what you just said is true, why do you think it's so? I really think that's a very pop-culture conventional and not very well-informed take. Lots of people have had extra weight throughout history--or at least, to judge by depictions we make of ourselves. most people today have less leisure time than ever, historically speaking. History suggests that a range of physical types is and has always been the norm. Remember that mesomorph, endomorph, ectomorph, stuff? Where did this lost race of trim people come up with that crazy notion? I don't mean to be rude, but I think you might want to re-think your idea of today's conventions of attractiveness, because your health and history opinion is b.s. and I think there's more wrong with it than what you mean by it. The question really isn't simple, the flat-bellied slim look is only 'natural' for some people, and for most of those, usually when youngish. And I hate it when people keep throwing in 'fit' and 'healthy', as if not looking like a skinny supermodel was a frigging scabrous disease. The whole health imperative, the new old-testament morality of the Self, seems to me a very thoughtless and conventional platform for incredible rudeness and flat-out cruelty. The whole fitness and exercise business is puzzling to me, (not that I haven't indulged in it)--but isn't there anything left worth actually doing? If only we could harness the energy of our narcissism toward some useful purpose. Sorry again for my rambling opinions, but I'm a figurative artist, and I've thought about, and feel strongly about the way people look, and look at each other. I don't think it's so simple.

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: GUEST,Fred
Date: 08 Aug 02 - 02:38 PM

um, didn't mean to post that twice, or to drift. What I was trying to say is that part of the difference is not between looks and feel, but what is generally appreciated vs. what is generally considered, accepted, tolerated as fashionable. I don't think fashion is arrived at by a general consensus. Fashion leaders aren't mainly in the business of appreciating women.

And the mystery of women's clothing, why nothing seems made to fit, is probably just because they aren't made to fit. They're made to sell. A study of the A.M.A. as a system of health services looks like chaos, but a study of it as a money-making system looks like a fine-tuned, well-oiled machine. I suspect there's something about prodding people's insecurities that taps the impulse to buy, to buy not only clothes and appearance-products, but all sorts of things. This is my theory about it, and I don't think it's a brilliant conspiracy, just what evolves when people are trying like crazy to sell stuff.

In military training there's sometimes a mind-game trick of issuing recruits ill-fitting uniforms, then giving them better ones at the completion of training, as though they've arrived at a new self. So I think it's better for sales to present a difficult, almost impossible ideal, keep people feling uneasy, if you can.

So people keep saying fuller-figures are coming back in style, and nothing happens. J. Garofalo keeps masquerading as an unattractive woman (and as a non-celebrity) and it's conventionally, but not actually, credible. I think the root is the difference between producing things for use, or for sale, and fashion unconsciously finds the expression of that aspect of the culture. Hope that was more to the point of the original question.

extra posting deleted by a
joeclone

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 08 Aug 02 - 02:18 PM

I don't particularly like a jiggle - wiggles, yes - like belly or hula dancers.

Why to we at least like to look at slender women and men? Simple - slender & fit is natural - extra weight is not - until we humans were able to get to the point where work and food allowed us to add on those extra pounds, nearly everyone was slender and fit - at least until their 40s which was the beginning "old age" back then.

pax yall

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: GUEST,Fred Miller
Date: 08 Aug 02 - 11:37 AM

I know a liittle about this stuff. One theory is that busts follow the market--in prosperous times small is fashionable and in depressed the big bust is favored. I don't know, fashion is different from any real collective preference, except that it influences some people. There are fairly talented people who work hard to make celebrities look good, then that look becomes a recognisible sort of style thing and people recognise it, respond to it. The general big bust preference is like that--not so many people really prefer it, I think, but it does have a way of bringing the subject up.

Straight males generally have always liked jiggly women, as part of the the whole liking-women deal, and still do, and no amount of stylish fashion really changes that. But we have managed to create social diseases by attacking people's insecurities with diabolical ads. Same with ads about cars or whatever, how successful you are, or appear to be. I drew nude models a lot in college, and am really very easily attracted by people's looks, in all sorts of ways. I think it would be a good thing if drawing were still considered a basic part of education instead of a flaky gift. It's just a kind of literacy, just work like anything else. Then people might be better able to culture their eyes, instead of being so susceptible to influences. My own preference has always been mostly in the timeless range of mature-looking normality--by which I mean more or less average body types, with lots of room for variation. The only place to find average, mature- looking photos of nudes, when I was a kid, was books about witchcraft. Odd, now that I think of it.

I've been with one woman about 22 years, since I was seventeen. One attractive woman I know is as weirdly voluptuous as a hindu stone carving, looks exotically sexy, very unusual, probably not a fashionable sort of look, is my point, but still as sexy as sexy gets. I don't think I judge people by their looks, much, but I enjoy the way people look, and like to flirt and have fun.

One thing I find unattractive in women is when they get all high-minded, ethical, and principled, when it suits them, but forget that principle the rest of the time. It seems so masculine, like a woman having a big beard.

Given that the look goes with other things, one thing I find especially sexy in general, is the ability to act. Bad acting is horribly unsexy, no matter what someone looks like. But in women in particular, the ability to do that look in the eye, that face--like Nala in the cartoon The Lion King. To do that, on cue, convincingly--that's amazing. I was watching with my kids, and Simba and Nala roll down a hill, then she looks at him with that face that women get at a certain point in the development of intimacy that says Fuck me. Yikes. Is that where women learn it? From Disney? How did they do that? It's kind of a mona lisa smile, and the eyes narrow just perceptibly. If a real actress did that in a movie it would be my pick for an oscar, but this was a cartoon of a damn lioness. People talked about the word Sex being drawn in the clouds, subliminally--what about that liminal thing where Nala does the Ok-fuck-me face?

Another theory is that smell is a very good indicator of biological mate-compatibility. I heard that somewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Kim C
Date: 08 Aug 02 - 10:52 AM

Alterations are sometimes worth the trouble, sometimes not - jeans in particular are hard to work with unless you have an industrial-strength sewing machine. The beauty of it is, though, there are lots of jeans out there, so if you try on enough pairs, you're sure to find one that fits!

I bought my first-ever pair of hip=huggers, that FIT, at Old Navy, whose jeans I have NEVER been able to wear. :-)

I would say, never let a jiggle (or a lack thereof) impede what could be a wonderful relationship.

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 08 Aug 02 - 10:52 AM

If she's playing dead, you are not providing enough stimulation.

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: wilco
Date: 08 Aug 02 - 10:48 AM

After thirty three years of marriage, I imagine that having a bed-mate who could juggle would be interesting. But, what could she juggle in bed? Maybe our bifocals and dentures. As it is, we get along like two old dogs. I sit-up in bed and beg, and she rolls over and plays dead.

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Gamine
Date: 08 Aug 02 - 01:16 AM

YEEEEEE-HAWWWWWWWW!

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: GUEST,DW at work
Date: 28 Jun 02 - 06:42 PM

So I guess the verdict is we like 'em jiggly. Men and women.

DW

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 28 Jun 02 - 12:05 PM

By the bye, as Valentine Michael Smith put it "Snuggling is a goodness."

Also, as far as clothing goes, why not alter the jeans with a needle and thread? If the hips fit properly, bring in the waist. The tailored look is better, anyway.

The whole point is to appreciate what is there rather than lamenting what is not.

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 28 Jun 02 - 11:58 AM

I wish I came within a hundred pounds of what I weighed in High school.

I was at the Mermaid Parade in Coney Island this past weekend. Attendance, both in the parade and in the audience, was equally divided between male and female. As I wandered around I heard many variations on the same comment--It's real nice to see people who are comfortable in their skins. This referred to people young and old, fat and thin. Happy people don't judge others on their appearance; they get to know them and them put out a slam. I didn't see an ugly person there [except maybe for a few of the polizei].

As I mentioned above, it would be unreasonable to judge others by a criterion I am not willing to make the effort to meet. I have found that a relaxed attitude toward others' appearance is much more rewarding toward my own involvements.

Although I keep telling myself that I prefer small breasted women, others seem to come my way and it would be ungallant not to at least hug hello.

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Kim C
Date: 27 Jun 02 - 04:23 PM

Personally, I have always preferred tall skinny men. And I married one. Almost 47 years old and weighs the same as he did in high school. Don't let him fool you, though, he's pretty wiry and brawny in spite of himself. I dared him he couldn't carry me up the stairs, but he sure did.

However, he is lax in the butt department. (I'm not saying anything I haven't said to him.) One of our friends calls this condition "leg tops" - as in, you don't have a butt, you have leg tops. :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 27 Jun 02 - 03:40 PM

Well I like a bit of a jiggle... skinny blokes are all bones in the wrong places..... a good bit of padding is nicest, and it looks good too. Mind you, too much is just as bad..... don't want to be squashed to bits do we?

There you go, female point of view, now all you skinny blokes can up and shout at me.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 27 Jun 02 - 11:27 AM

Me thinks that was a conversation stopper!

Of course if you drink my lemonade you won't put on a pot.

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 19 Jun 02 - 12:10 PM

My beer is more likely to make me pee in one !

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 19 Jun 02 - 11:12 AM

Do chaps have a jiggley tummy because of the ale? I met a man at my counter the other day who said he could drink all the ale he liked and never seemed to put any weight on at all. I said the breweries ought to use him in some way to GM their beer! Just imagine, a beer that won't make you put on a pot!

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: gnu
Date: 19 Jun 02 - 06:35 AM

Yup. Officially not responsible. Made a pot of tea twenty minutes ago... forgot the tea bags.

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: gnu
Date: 19 Jun 02 - 06:25 AM

Jiggle low ?

There once was a gigolo who was fat, So he couldn't quite get to where it's at, When faced with disgrace, He graced with his face, And now he's well paid for that.

Sorry. I don't know how that happened. Haven't had my tea yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: open mike
Date: 19 Jun 02 - 05:06 AM

I CAN'T BELIEVE THERE ARE SO MANY POSTS ON THIS TOPIC-- I ALSO CAN'T BELIEVE MINE IS ONE OF THEM-- BUT MY MAIN THOUGHT, AS A FEMALE READER HERE-- IS WHO CARES IF A PERSON DOES JIGGLE HIGH OR JIGGLE LOW?

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 07:24 PM

The NYCFTTS hass been around for almost 4 years now and admission is free if you're a 'Catter. Virtually everyone here has spent some time there. It was originally funded by the CIA as a cover for a base training insane tiple squads for world overthrow. The CIA had found that assasination wasn't working out for them.

Cletus was one of the earlier patients there back in the Clinton days which caused some concern from Paw and the Reg Boys.. During this time, Cletus was being de-toxed from his hamsterdance addiction by playing tapes of Enya interspersed with a collection of witty remarks by Strom Thurmond. Knowing thru Katlaughing that the Young Center is a CIA front and training center for CIA world takeover through the use of crazed tiple bands instead of killing squads, you would expect the treatment to be effective and state of the art. Indeed it was, as Cletus was rehearsing with his own tiple band within a week. They were sent to Washington DC to embarass and discredit Libby Dole by making Bob Dole an embarassment to her. The idea was for this crazed tiple band to play the Oscar Mayer Wiener ditty within earshot of Bob and it would cure his Erectile Dysfunction but leave him screaming through Rock Creek Park, in his flapping boxers, shouting,"I got WOOD! It's a WOODY!!" This plan did not come to fruition as at the last moment, fate reared it's head.

Cletus found a place for the band to rehearse for a last time before making a tiple assault on Bob Dole. It was a gardenlike setting in the midst of hundreds of rosebushes which, even dormant, Cletus had always loved. They reminded him of his 5 former wives, all of whom had died in exactly the same way. It seems there lungs had been filled with Sevin dust while using the same defective sprayer. Oddly enough, all of them had recently taken out life insurance with Cletus as the sole beneficiary. After the death of the first, the local sheriff immediately suspected Cletus, but when it came to light that the insurance was for only $500.00, he decided that even ol' Clete wasn't that stupid. Of course, he was new in town then and didn't really KNOW Cletus. With each wife's death, he became more suspicious, but in every case the cheapo life insurance turned him away from Clete. Yeah, it's true, the sheriff ain't exactly J.Edgar Hoover...'course he doesn't cross dress either. But to continue our story, the band began rehearsing the Oscar Mayer tune. They didn't know they were in the Rose Garden of the White House. Even worse, with a mildness to the weather, several windows had been left open a crack to let in the spring breeze.

Inside the Oval office, Bill Clinton, now without both Hilary and Monica was meeting with a few top advisors and close friends and discussing world affairs. Maybe it was the springtime air or maybe the nerve jangling sound of a crazed tiple band...maybe it was both. Suddenly Wild Bill began to hold himself and revert to his Arkansas dialect. Pacing about he shouted, "Shee-yet! Suhbitch I jes' gotta' far offn' a biggun'." An aide trying to restore the conversation said something about Yugoslavia to which Bill responded, "Not only Yes, but Hail Yes!!! I gotta' shooter 'ats 'bout to EX-plode. Yugoslavia, Schmugoslavia, I got some blastin' tuh do!! Fuckin'-A right Bubba!" Hence once again a bungled CIA operation led to changes in history that may not have occured otherwise. The band was immediately sent back to the Young Center in Montana. For most of the way they were secreted away in the trunk of a car belonging to a Joe somebody who left the DC area last weekend heading west.

Meanwhile, Paw's pacing had been halted by the appearance of three strangers, somewhat goofy looking guys who had stopped here to inquire about Paw's whereabouts. I sent them on down to the wastewater plant and they immediately struck some kind of chord within Paw. This was unusual since they were what Paw always refers to as "Furriners." They introduced themselves as Rick Fielding's brothers...Reg, Reg, and Reg. Turns out that they'd been hoping to strike a deal with Paw and Cletus to combine for a North and South operation to fleece the unsuspecting of their goods. Paw and Cletus through deer hunting "accidents" and Reg, Reg and Reg through ice fishing "slips." Paw must have thought this was what their previously failed business needed and off they went to retrieve Cletus from the Young Center. It was my fear then that these dimbulbs would become CIA recruits for a crazed tiple band and I put out an alert for all points west to watch out for them. Now here I shoulda' known better. I hesitate to call them a band of half-wits since between them they have less than half a wit. Anyway, this half-wit band left town without a word to anyone. You'd think the sun or the roadsigns would have clued them in, but they were actually heading east. I guess they were just walking along and planning how to spend their future riches. They were passing through Wheaton, Maryland, just outside of Washington, DC, when they asked for directions at the home of a guy named Bill carrying an autoharp. This guy seemed to be appalled at the sight of these four and not only told them that Montana was 2000 miles the other way, but what usually happened to assholes like them 300 years ago...and to get the hell off his property NOW!!!

So west they headed and of course they were tryin to lay blame on each other. Reg said it was Paw at fault, but Reg said it wasn't and then Reg said just to leave Paw out of it, but Paw says to Reg that he didn't know either and Reg says that Reg is an idiot and Reg says that Reg is an idiot and Paw says that Reg is right but Reg says Paw is full of it and Reg says that Reg............Well I guess this kinda' thing went on to about Frederick. At that point they all suggested that the others didn't have the sense to pour piss out of a boot with the instructions written on the heel. Whereupon they all sat down on a railroad track and took their boots off only to discover that NONE of them had instructions. This lightened things up and they began to talk about the best way to pour piss out of a boot. So they decided to try out their ideas and they all stood up and began whizzing into their boots. Their aim was helped by the illumination from the headlight of a Norfolk-Southern freight bearing down upon them. It was then that a local TV news van happened upon this scene of four guys pissing in their boots with a fast freight coming at them and began filming the spectacle. Also a police car arrived and the officer screamed for them to move, which thankfully they did...but their boots were carried off by the diesel. They were placed under arrest for indecent exposure and criminal stupidity. I got a call from the police and figured since they had no money and no boots I could go pick them up before they did anymore harm to themselves. But the TV station paid their bail and bought them each a new pair of boots and sent them on their way. The TV people figured they were in for several major awards with the footage they'd shot so money for bail and boots was a pittance.

That was a long time ago and a lot has happened since but as you can see, the treatment does work as long as it's the right treatment.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Gamine
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 06:39 PM

*grin* Spaw, I will be right over: But I must warn you, along with being terminally screwed, I have an INSANE passion for noseflutes! Can I bring my own, or do I have to use yours? ;-)

CarolC: good point, about it being a local thing. Could be true. Before I lived in Ca (which is very recently, timewise) I grew up in Michigan, lived for almost ten years in Kansas, and spent more summers than I care to count in all parts of Canada (my dad is from there) - windsor, london, edmonton, saubo, all along superior, athabasca (anyone heard of *that* place?), toronto... I don't remember a GREAT difference between places I've been/lived. True, here in CA people tend to be pretty body focused, though I would say more down south (LA) than up here.

And, like we talked about before, I don't have a problem with any of this - it just fascinates me and I wondered if it fascinated anyone else. From the size of this thread in such a short time, I am guessing that I am not alone.

Spaw, given that, you may have more visitors to your institution than you care for!

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: mousethief
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 05:07 PM

NOSEFLUTES?! Man, obviously I left too soon. When did you start giving out noseflutes? Can I come back?

PS the tiple there is lousy.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 04:16 PM

WE have a room for you Gamine at the Neil Young Center for the Terminally Screwed where Dr. Cajones can help you through your problems. Tiples and Noseflutes are provided as well as gowns, towels, shampoo, and sedation. So just get aboard the Insanevac chopper when it arrives and you'll be getting past the 4th and 5th tier thinking in no time!

Spaw, CEO
NYCFTTS

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 03:30 PM

Gamine, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that I think the problem is more because of where you live than it is a general societal problem.

You live in California, right? I bet if you went to a bar in the Canadian maritimes (and quite likely any number of other places in Canada), you would get an entirely different response than what you've been getting there where you are. I know several men from/in the Canadian maritimes, like our fine friend gnu here, and they seem to prefer women to be much more rounded than what is seen as the ideal in California. I think those values really differ from place to place.

Here in the US, I have spent my whole life feeling a little too jiggly. When I was in Canada visiting friends a little over a year ago, I felt too skinny for the first time in my life. And was I suprised. I had never expected I would experience being considered too skinny.

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: mousethief
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 03:16 PM

TOO heavy. Not "TO" but "TOO."

Always prufreed.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: mousethief
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 03:14 PM

I think we should start a new thread. This one is getting waaaaaay to heavy, so to speak.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 02:34 PM

I've been watching this thread with interest (and a whole lot of laughs), so here's a "deep" bit.

My wife used to jiggle quite nicely but has been anorexic now for many years, thin as a rake and weak as hell. Whenever I hear anyone (male or female) complaining about their weight, size, shape, whatever, I always say something like - be what you are and enjoy it, if you like yourself everyone else will like you for yourself.

Keep smiling and keep on jiggling!

Pete

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Gamine
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 02:04 PM

DW: You stated: "If you don't want personal opinions, don't ask the question"

And I just wanted you to know that *I* posted the original question and I *don't* have any problem with any opinions thus far, including yours.

((I also see/saw Carol's point,too, though.)) God, I feel like a politician! :-)

Someone earlier suggested that I restate the original question, which still hasn't fully been answered to my satisfaction, mostly cause I did a shitty job asking for what I was *really* after the first time around [go figure a woman having a hard time doing that!] it was this:

"Here's the question: Do men (and women for that matter) have a 'jiggle' preference? I mean, I have heard my male friends say (and I think it is stolen from Pulp Fiction? or some movie like that): It is a shame that what looks good to the eyes does not always feel good to the touch."

I then went on to clarify further(since most people answered that question pretty well):

"I am interested in the WHY's of these discrepencies (we, collectively in society, saying one thing, but most of us really preferring to BE with something very different)...is there some sort of mechanism for our desires and preferences? Is there some sort of evolutionary trend? Is it all just what society throws at us?"

Here's the point, people. I think most of us, myself included, go through life on autopilot and we rarely spend time thinking about WHY we think, do, feel, act the ways that we do. *WHY* do most people prefer to be with others that are slightly jiggly in the long run, but would tend to *not* necessarily drool over that same person if they saw them (sight unseen) at a bar or grocery store? Look, I understand that we develop love over time, and get to know the person underneath the jiggles, etc. I get that. What I don't get is if we all get that then how come nothing is changing overall in society on the whole? If 100, or 600, or 1,000 of us began a little society and we all talked about this subject, our little society would probably have very different 'rules' of LOOKING/HAVING than this one does, and if that is true for a small community (like this one even) then how come we don't see a change in our big community? How come I still see every man's (and woman's) eyes follow a super slim attractive woman as she enters a room, whereas the jiggly woman (not FAT, just average jiggly) is promptly ignored? Ditto for when a man walks into a room...

*WHY?*

And I am NOT saying we shouldn't LOOK, or that it is wrong that we do (I do it all the time). I am just trying to raise the level of consciousness a bithere. Most of the responses to this thread have been GREAT and INFORMATIVE...I just wish we could get a bit deeper and ask the harder question. I want to throw out a bit of healthy doubt. Where are the big strokes, or are the little strokes just too little still.

Question Everything!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Bullfrog Jones
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 12:59 PM

Ah well Carol, but I can dream can't I?

BJ

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: gnu
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 07:12 AM

Talk about creep ! The original post addresses, "... I have surmised that most of them prefer (to sleep with, cuddle with, be with) women with a bit of meat on their bones, and by that I mean 'jiggly', even though most of those same male friends prefer (on their arm in public, in magazines, walking by on the street) to LOOK at women who do not jiggle, or jiggle very little."

I'll say it again. Anna Kournikova - no. Jennifer Capriotti - yes. Lindsay Davenport - yes. Martina Hingas - yes, oh gosh yes.

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 12:54 AM

I don't have a problem with you DW. The quotes of yours that I used were not the only ones that illustrated what I was trying to say. But I felt that they did illustrate what I wanted to say the most clearly.

You're certainly entitled to have your opinions about whom you find yourself attracted to (or don't). And I certainly can't prevent you from posting offensive or hurtful comments to illustrate what you want to say about your opinions.

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: GUEST,DW at work
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 12:44 AM

Sorry, didn't realise I'd upset people in giving my personal opinions which is what the original posting asked for.

If you don't want personal opinions, don't ask the question.

CarolC, if you have a problem with me, or my opinions which are the only ones you've quoted, why not just up and say it.

I'm just a normal guy with maybe few too many pounds on board for some people's taste. I do have a butt, I spend quite a lot of my working life on it, with no chance to change. I don't like making love with skinny women, and I don't like doing it with grossly overweight women. If you look at some websites, there are people out there who would screw the Michelin Man if they could. The question asked for my opinion and I'm sorry if you don't like it. If you have such a big problem with it, maybe my bud Beardyman can help.

DW

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 08:14 PM

Well, I just found out that the link to my butt is no more. PhotoLoft has closed for business. Sorry Bullfrog. Bummer, eh?

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Jeri
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 08:13 PM

Carol, yeah, I missed the important distinction. Your example is the only comment I saw as cruel, but it sounded like you were talking about a bunch of comments so I thought you were talking about the "I don't like __________ physical feature(s) because __________" comments as being the cruel ones. My mistake.

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: kendall
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 08:09 PM

I don't care for extremes in either direction. Personality, sense of humor, wittiness and a pleasant speaking voice are so much more important.

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 07:09 PM

I think you're probably missing an important distinction about what I'm saying Jeri. I don't see any harm in people stating their preferences. And I don't think I have said anything in any of my posts to this thread that would indicate otherwise. I am talking specifically about people saying cruel things about the body types they don't prefer. Here's an example of what I'm talking about...

I'm not into the gross flaps of flesh that some people crave. I like to be able to get my arms around at least 2/3s of a woman, and I don't want to have to be digging around for ages trying to find the target.

This sort of thing seems unnecessarily hurtful to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Jeri
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 06:58 PM

CarolC said "I wonder how the guys would feel if we talked about their appearances in the same kinds of terms that some of them are using here in this thread. I'm guessing they wouldn't love it."

I think this is a BIG reason why some guys are talking about not liking certain body shapes without guilt: guys don't really think it's that big a deal. They don't see why women can get upset because they wouldn't. There are guys who run Mudcat and are named Max who have absolutely no butt whatsoever. When told he had no butt, he batted his eyelashes and smiled. I suspect it doesn't bother him much that some women like butts on men. Hell, guys with beer guts and boobs walk around without shirts, and they're happy. Guys show off scars, they don't try to hide them. You tell a guy his butt crack is showing, and he's likely to either 1) pull up his pants, or 2) say something like "oh," and NOT pull up his pants. (There's probably a 3rd, where they guy drops trou and says something like "Well, there's my entire ass - anything else you're interested in?" Too frightening to think about - expecially if you're in church or at a restaurant when it happens.) Tell me the same thing, and I'll faint from embarrassment. Well, I would have a few years ago, but I'm learning.

We're all attracted to different sorts of physical features (often simply because they're attached to a great person), and expecting all of mine appeal to every guy out there and not actually turn some completely off is unrealistic. I'm preparing my self esteem to deal with aging. Everything eventually falls apart, and I'd just as soon not have the inevitable sags, jiggles, wrinkles, etc, be MY problem. I'm getting them, but I don't have to obsess about them.

A person may dislilke like skinny butts on prospective love interests. They might dislike red hair, big feet, the way someone walks, their vertical or horizontal size - all sorts of things. Other people will be attracted to those same features. And personally, none of those things matter one bit in someone I'd simply like to get to know.

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Kim C
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 05:42 PM

Speaking of jiggles and blowing and south ends, reminds me of a story.

My friend's brother is a high school teacher in Mississippi. One day he was teaching class, and at an appropriate point, asked if there were any questions. One student raised her hand.

"Mr. Craddock," she said, "when you poot, do your cheeks clap?"

Now, I have never heard this story anywhere else, so I don't think it's an urban myth. But maybe it ought to be!

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 03:13 PM

Hey Gamine. Congratulations on your pictures winning prizes. Just goes to show we don't have to take getting older lying down! (Or whatever ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: mousethief
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 02:41 PM

Spaw is ALWAYS blowing something out his south end.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: MMario
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 02:26 PM

*sniff,sniff* dang it 'spaw - you made me leak 'round the eyeballs!

If you've ever seen those two together - you would know 'spaw ain't blowin anything out his south end on this either -

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Kim C
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 02:05 PM

Careful there, Spaw, yer showin yer sweet human side again. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 02:00 PM

Ya' know, there have been a lot of chances for jokes in this thread, but I ain't really into it......Maybe I'm just gettin' old or something, but I honestly could give a shit less to be quite truthful. I really dunno' when it was that I quit paying much attention to anything regarding looks, but it was a long time back.

Karen has gone from 150 to 230 to 135 to 250 and in all of it, I really don't see her in any of those ways. I still "see" the woman who fascinated me by her conversation (even though she says she's a lousy conversationalist and was nervous), the girl I wanted to marry fom the moment we met. After years of being together, when I think of "Karen" in my mind, I see the eyes and hear the voice of those many nights together in happiness and also those nights in hospitals where all I had to latch onto was the sound of her voice and I could read the situation by the look in those eyes. She's the greatest thing that ever happened to me and if she's wearing whatever it is at whatever weight it is, she still looks fine to me.

Sorry to interrupt....carry on.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: mousethief
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 01:57 PM

Bottom line: Thank God for sexual reproduction! Yeee-haw!

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Bullfrog Jones
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 01:42 PM

I'm built for comfort, I ain't built for speed -- and the Beloved and I do so enjoy jigglin' the night away! Two points -- I'm really pissed off, 'cos I can't access CarolC's butt. I just get a message telling me to try again in a few minutes (I guess it's just getting too many hits). Secondly I've never come across (oo-er) any of them new-fangled plastic boobs, and I wouldn't want to 'cos they don't jiggle -- and where's the fun in that? All power to you ladies -- you jiggle yours and I'll jiggle mine...

BJ

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Kim C
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 10:00 AM

Alex, weasels wiggle but they don't fall down.

Gamine, see my previous post about the ice-blue velvet jeans.

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Gamine
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 06:54 AM

creed = creep

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Gamine
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 06:52 AM

Thread Creed Alert, sorta

CarolC: Already do the nude picture thing...I work with a pretty prominent photographer who was actually one of Ansel Adam's friends before he passed away...A couple of my pictures have won a few prizes in some photo contests -whoo hoo. And it *did* help with the 'older' thing.

I don't generally hang in bars either...but I find this particular one good to study in (off all things). There is just enough activity and noise to keep part of my (ADD)brain busy while the other part is focused on strange diseases and physiological mechanistic processess, all of which I will forget after August 24th.

To get back to jiggles, though...an interesting observation from my night out: there were young women who definitely didn't jiggle, or if they did it was 'cute' jiggles and then there were much older (than I) women, who DID jiggle, who were out there whooping it up (sometimes with the much younger guys - although it was in a 'oh-how-cute-is-that-grandma-lady-dancing-with-my-boyfriend-let-me-take-a-picture' kind of way), but there was nothing in-between, and in-between jiggle wise too, (like ME age). Am I in some sort of 2nd 13 year old adolescence, only I know a LOT more now?

Where are all the in-betweeners hanging out?

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 05:54 AM

Sure Dave. Get in line ;-)

Gamine, I don't generally hang out in bars (too many desperate people... too depressing) so I can't really comment on what goes on in them. What I did to deal with the getting older issue was to have my picture in the Mudcat nearly nude calendar this year and last year. I'm 46 years old. I figured, what better way to thumb my nose at getting older than to pose naked with just my accordion in a calendar for a folk music website. And I was right. It's been great fun so far.

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: GUEST,Gamine
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 05:19 AM

CarolC: Again, point well taken...I hadn't thought of that enough to make it to actual consciousness, but I am sure it rambled around in my subconciousness for awhile, or else I wouldn't have known it struck such a cord.

Never thought of it that way (consciously): that we target the extremes with our sarcasm and our comments (one way or another). I suppose in light of that I should be happy that I am somewhere in the middle...but then, how come it still doesn't feel right?

I just got back from the bar down the street (I was sorta celebrating cause it was my last day of work-work) where I used to go with relative obscurity and sing....but I walked in tonight, after a six month absence or so, to find things had CHANGED! The bartendar is now my estranged best male friends brother whom he doesn't talk to anymore and the place was crowded with "youngsters". I looked around and thought, "These people are NO WAY old enough to drink!" and realized 1) I could no longer be obscure and 2) no one was looking at me anymore....(ok, no one besides Cliff, the red-shirted, khaki wearing, white cowboy-hatted, 55 year old (god, or somebody, bless him) man that wanted to talk to me about NPR all night, that is (and I *did* talk!).

What an eye opener.

What a sobering night...even though the beer flows heavily through my veins (pardon the typos tonight!)

Here is what I noticed in my six month absence from the "bar scene" (and not a very trendy one at that - at least it didn't used to be):

1. Women's (ok, little girl's) tops have plunged into DEEP v's. (which I actually like, cause all of us look good in V necks, even those of us with not very big boobs)

2. The low low low rider pants are in in in. I mean, these pants are sexy! I heard one gal say tonight, "These are not sitting pants; they are only standing pants!" Cause if you sit in them, your buttcrack, and/or undies show(but dang, are they sexy!). They come about an inch above your pubes...about four or so inches below your belly button....oh my!

3. Two words: Tank Tops.

4. Okay, four words: Lace pastel tank tops.

5. I have a new perspective on men/women (especially young ones) after having read this thread (see below)

So here's the new perspective:

The young guys were very caught up in the young girls (as it should be, I guess), but what they REALLY wanted (though sadly, they don't know it yet) was the older gals, the ones that knew what they were doing.

And the young gals were very caught up in the young guys (again, as it should be I guess) but what they REALLY wanted was the older guys, the ones that knew what they were doing....

Hmmmm

What do you think? Too much beer for me tonight, or do I have something here?

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 05:05 AM

CarolC - If I say that there's nothing wrong with your butt, does that disqualify me from joining the queue (probably a couple of miles long by now) of all the fellows waiting to kiss it ?

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 02:35 AM

And when people ask why women are so self conscious about their looks, I would just point to comments like this one...

Doing IT with Allie McBeal would be like sleeping with a stick. I'd be afraid she'd snap in half!

Pretty much all of the cruel comments about appearances on this thread are about women. And they are about women who are thin and women who are large. Is it any wonder when we face this kind of focus on our appearance every day of our lives by so many people, that we tend to focus a lot on this issue ourselves?

I wonder how the guys would feel if we talked about their appearances in the same kinds of terms that some of them are using here in this thread. I'm guessing they wouldn't love it.

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 01:55 AM

*G* Thanks Gamine. I actually like my butt quite a lot, and those who don't like it can just kiss it!! (Just kidding. Sort of ;-)

I find that there is so much beauty in people of all shapes and sizes. What a sad place the world would be if everyone looked the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Gamine
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 01:14 AM

Point taken, CarolC (and I *still* think you have an a-ok butt!)

JohnInKansas: You mean they actually let you men see naked women before you wed nowadays?!! (just kidding...I lived there for almost ten years [was married there, too and come to think of it, I really may have been my husband's (ex now) first nudie (is *that* why the marriage didn't last?)]

Wow has this thread become a life of its own!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: GUEST,DW at work
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 01:14 AM

Doing IT with Allie McBeal would be like sleeping with a stick. I'd be afraid she'd snap in half!

Give me some bounce any day.

DW

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 01:12 AM

Marilyn Monroe wore what today is size 14. I haven't read about anyone complaining about her jiggles or looks! And Mae West was voluptuous, quite attractive but rather pear-shaped by today's standards. Her self-esteem was in great shape.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 09:27 PM

Somehow I have the feeling that some of the wily feminine responses in this thread are going to make some poor male forget years of training and once again blurt out the wrong reply to that perenial question "Does this make me look fat?"

I imagine that some of my posts to this thread could look this way. And while I really appreciate all of the kind things that people have been saying about my ass and stuff (thanks for the compliments, those of you who have given them), what I was really trying to do is just to ask people if they could state their preferences without cutting anyone down in the process, since people of all body types are reading this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 08:25 PM

If you check out the "how to" books in the photography section of any good book store, you will find specialty "technique" items on a number of categories.

You will find "how to Photograph nudes," becaue it's "artistic" and therefor permissible. (Including male nudes has only recently become truly permissible.) You will not find much of anything in these books about how to choose your model by body type - because if you can handle (not intending any pun) the subject properly - it doesn't really matter.

You will rarely find much of anything on "cheesecake" photography, possibly, although debatably, the only category where the model is as important as the "rendering."

You should find a number of guides to "glamour photography," all of which will make ONE key point - that a good glamour photograph must appeal to women. That's the whole lesson plan in a nutshell.

Fashion models are generally "slender" often to the point of anorexia, because the target "audience" is female. They must be "attractive enough" to be "not distracting," and may even be "sexy" to a point - if that's the kind of stuff they're showing; but they must not be sensual in any sense of the word.

If you look at old-timey female stars of the legitimate movie trade, the majority of them were, in fact, quite "sensual;" (and often quite jiggly?) so that they played a real tight-rope game of being non-threatening by virtue of "having great character" - or were limited to roles where they suffered great tragedies. Think Doris Day, Kim Novak, Debbie Reynolds in the first category, and maybe Anna Magnani in the other.

With the trend in more current movies and TV toward "action" plots where "the girl does everything" (she may have a conscience, but that's not quite the same thing as character) the trend is back to the skinny, non-sensual actress. The extreme example might be Ally McBeal, which would have been nothing but high-dollar smut pornography if Ally had a figure. An "attraction" to one of the "unjigglies" probably is as much "star cult" as sensual.

If what you're really interested in is what attracts guys, it's basically what's inside - especially if what's inside is visible, believable, pure unbridled, single minded lust for your guy. Feed him enough of aphrodesiac ego and he'll want you - no matter what you look like within reason (but cuddly is nice too).

(Visibly lusting for someone else's guy will often make a whole lot of people "not like you," usually - eventually - including the guy.)

Of course - your mileage may vary.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 08:01 PM

"In the jiggle jaggle mornin' I'll come followin' you..."

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 07:57 PM

The cogent point in my discussion of jeans and how they fit is that if I pick up enough pairs I eventually find some that fit nicely. I am very careful to avoid the type that aren't long enough from waist to crotch so they ride up. Nothing like an involuntary wedgie to make your day an uncomfortable one!

Okay, since people are linking to online images of themselves, I have one that I'm particularly fond of from my library web pages. Scroll down to the images and I'm on the left.

And some friends have posted some old photos, from the late 1970's, in preparation for a reunion of park rangers at Ellis Island. I'm in several, but am most easily identified in the Peter Boyden collection. I'm standing next to Peter, who is wearing three stetsons simultaneously. No more long blonde hair (I like it much better short, it has some body, but that's a different thread. . . ) but I still weigh about the same, perhaps a bit less. It takes a while for this page to load, but the friend who set up the web page will be ecstatic if his counter shows a few more hits!

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Bert
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 07:13 PM

...She was round in the counter and bluff in the bow
Way hey blow the man down....

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: mousethief
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 06:51 PM

Do weasels wiggle?

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 06:42 PM

Morti, I didn't buy those jeans. I couldn't afford feeding the ferrets, and I decided if I wanted weasels in my jeans, I wasn't going to buy them off the rack.

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Morticia
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 06:30 PM

Jeri, I thought you'd given up the ferrets?? It'll only get you talked about, you know!

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 06:03 PM

Strangers don't tell strangers they have attractive jiggles because they risk getting slapped or responded to with the phrase "Geez - what a dork!" It's a bit too personal. I HAVE walked up to complete strangers and complimented their clothing, hair, tattoos - that sort of thing, but those are all artistic things they had control over.

Friends don't tell friends they have attractive jiggles because of the possibility one or the other might take it a bit too seriously. I've had close male friends for most of my life, and I can't recall any of them ever commenting on my physical attributes seriously. I feel like we're lapsing into a Seinfeld episode...

Jeans DO come in different sizes:
Juniors: Can't squish my legs into them - forget the rest.
Misses: Butt fits great, but the waist cuts off my circulation.
Womens: Can find a waist that's big enough, but there's enough room for my butt, a friend's butt, and a couple of ferrets per thigh.

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 05:04 PM

Number 100 is "Simply cause we likes it."

Steve

Da Big Bopper was right

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Kim C
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 04:23 PM

Personally, I don't judge a person by their jiggles. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: mousethief
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 04:11 PM

If you get asked that question, you're already in deep doo-doo. You should be making your lady feel so loved and appreciated that she never starts feeling fat and thus never has to ask.

A sensitive, new-age guy

"A giggle in her talk and a wiggle in her walk
Makes the world go 'round"
--the Big Bopper

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 04:05 PM

Somehow I have the feeling that some of the wily feminine responses in this thread are going to make some poor male forget years of training and once again blurt out the wrong reply to that perenial question "Does this make me look fat?"

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 03:21 PM

I asked Blind DRunk to comment on this matter, but his answer was so crude that I will not post it...

Even Spaw would have been offended.

Damn good thing the library is no longer allowing him on their computer!

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 02:40 PM

Jiggles literally REEK of womanhood - and all that implies! Sensuality, softness, warmth, comfort, a molding to the body, arghhhhh - Where's me Partner! Dang work anyway!!

"Beauty is much more elusive than only physical structure. It's attitude, movement, mystery, confidence, and using the shape you have. If you do all that, it doesn't matter what your shape is."

Yep - womanhood.

And I've met CarolC - she is a lovely young lady - inside and out.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Gamine
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 01:58 PM

Wow, has thread grown and taken some mighty twisty turns! I guess that threads have a mind of their own, huh? :-)

CarolC: I think your butt is just BEAUTI-OUS! And I bet the gal behind the butt is fantastic as well.

Treewind: I love that exercise. Will try it!

Jed: You bring up an interesting point. Why do we keep what we really appreciate to ourselves? I can't think of any woman that I know that wouldn't want to hear a man, a stranger even, show (by way of telling) that her jiggles were just fine with them. Obviously, I am not talking about the creepy guys who do this on a daily basis...but some regular guy coming over and saying, "Hey,I'm not a weirdo or a prevert, I don't want to get in yer pants,I don't want your number or your email, and I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but I just thought you should know that you are fantastic looking! Have a great day!" (smile smile). I know that has been done to me, and I have done it to others and it is just...cool feeling. Most of us are told we look good by our spouse's, boy/girlfriends, people who KNOW us. Most of us don't get objectivity anymore. Maybe that is why those silly girls go on Howard Stern and ask to be judged? Anyway, point is, maybe we should all lighten up a bit, take a deep breath and just say it like it is?

gnu: 'This thread has grown so as to make an answer to the original question almost impossible without restating it'

True. True.

But the Anna thing...really? Your guys friends don't think she is sexy? My guys friends have convulsions at the mere mention of her name! Weird.

Beauty is much more elusive than all those things, Hesperis. And I agree wholeheartedly.

But what about jiggles? Right off the bat, not talking to, or really knowing a person, what about jiggles? How do you react to them - before the talking and the knowing comes into play, and more importantly, why do you think you react the way you do?

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Kim C
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 01:03 PM

Ditto.

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 12:46 PM

"Beauty is much more elusive than only physical structure. It's attitude, movement, mystery, confidence, and using the shape you have. If you do all that, it doesn't matter what your shape is."

...amen!....I should have said that myself....

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: hesperis
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 12:36 PM

This reminds me of a conversation we had in math class in high school. We got into the whole discussion of what is attractive. Turned out that a lot of the other girls were jealous of me because I was so skinny. (Almost anorexic-looking at the time, I've thankfully put on a wee bit more since then!)

I argued that I'd look better with at *least* twenty more pounds. Everyone said I looked fine, including the guys. Then I turned to the guys and said, ok, add a little more padding overall, add just a little definition in the muscles of my arms and legs, and add a little more on the hips. Almost all the guys in the room practically fell over and started drooling. Proved my point pretty well.

My theory is that it isn't the actual physical shape of the models that is attractive, it's the attitude in the poses (which are designed for a certain effect on the viewer), the certainty and confidence that they are attractive, and the blankness of the model which allows us to project our fantasies on them. But we get all that confused with their actual looks.

Beauty is much more elusive than only physical structure. It's attitude, movement, mystery, confidence, and using the shape you have. If you do all that, it doesn't matter what your shape is.

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: gnu
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 12:01 PM

This thread has grown so as to make an answer to the original question almost impossible without restating it. However, I feel complelled to comment on one post by the original poser... "...why do we stress out so much about looking like that beautiful tennis gal Anna Kournikova, or model Cindy Crawford...". Anna ? Anna ?! Why the hell would anyone stress out over not looking like Anna ? Yes, she is atheletic and almost the opposite of Jiggly, but, disregarding the "Cracker Postulate", I don't find her atrractive at all. And anyone who "stresses out" over that look just doesn't believe men when thay say she's not very attractive.... but it's true. (Don't anyone get their nickers in a twist over crackers or I'll start talking snakes.)

Now, Cindy, well, let's just say that Cindy has displayed certain "talents" in her earlier "artistic" films which preclude any male from judging her solely upon her physical appearance. Of course, if you haven't seen any of her earlier screen "plays", I highly recommend that you do. She is a LOVEly girl. While I agree with CC that the smile and the sparkle in the eyes are the first physical attractions, Cindy is at her best with her eyes closed. Of course, she could stand to put on a few pounds.

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: JedMarum
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 10:08 AM

Jiggle is nice. I've always found that whatever turns the head first doesn't matter much for the second look ... I've also noticed that the few (female) Mudcatters I've met in real life have nice jiggles and I appreciated those - though I kept my thoughts to myself!

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Kim C
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 10:07 AM

Stilly, it's been my experience that even misses' cuts don't always have hips. I think what the manufacturers like to do is make a bunch of the same item and just put different size tags in them, and different makers' names. Thus, the size 8 jeans you try on at the Gap may be the size 7 hanging on the rack at another store.

Gamine, perhaps we are simply addressing the concept of each person being his/her own worst critic.

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: mousethief
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 09:52 AM

Carol, there is nothing weird about your figure. It is a fine figure. And your hair is lovely too.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: treewind
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 07:36 AM

[mousethief]:
"I think we must distinguish between what advertising portrays (and I lump all television shows and movies into "advertising") and what people really do in their real lives.

Another interesting distinction is between our opinions based on how people look and how they feel. I've heard a story of a therapy group subjected to this exercise:
Phase 1: look around you at all the other people in the room and note your mental judgements about who you find attractive

Phase 2: go round the room blindfold and explore people by touch and feel (gently, no groping..!)

When you find you are with someone you feel good and comfortable with, take off the blindfold.

Result: lots of surprises!

The "feel" (and possibly unconscious sense of smell) is a better indicator of how you are likely to get on with someone than external appearance. Possibly because our visual judgement has been so corrupted by the media?

Anahata

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Tweed
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 07:23 AM

That ain't a skinny butt, that's a fine lookin' butt you got there CarolC ;~) ( by the way, I generally don't go around sayin' that to women I've never met, but it's Mudcat land....)

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 07:06 AM

Well, here I am. Skinny butt, and shoulders wider than my hips. I guess I'm just a freak of nature. Not much I can do about it. It's just the way I'm built.

My skinny arse

I just wonder if it's possible for people to state their preferences without actually cutting down the ones they don't prefer. Us freaky looking ladies are reading these posts you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 06:45 AM

I'm glad that a couple of you did get the funny side of my previous posting.

"Les B" when you get to my age, it's more a question of a girls with hips bigger than their waist - and often the ladies who've dieted and lost most of the weight off their bottoms are the worst offenders !

Why is it that some girls are so worried that their bums look might look big ? - Big and jiggly is much better than Skinny (and often dangly).

Whwn I first introduced Linda (Essex Girl) to John Heydon (Herga / Dragon Records) he said "She's got a great Bum" and she (and I) took it as a compliment.

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 02:15 AM

I don't experience that sort of dichotomy. Mostly. The most attractive feature on a man whom I find attractive is the expression on his face. If the expression on his face has a spark that indicates a good and subtle sense of humor, I find that very attractive. And if he's got that and the expression on his face shows kindness, well, that's when I go all wobbly in the knees.

None of the rest of it becomes all that attractive to me until I'm in a loving intimate relationship with him. And then, I find him attractive whatever he looks like.

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Gamine
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 02:06 AM

SRS -- I'd be interested in that book title if you get the chance to get around to it....

And, alas, some ideas about WHY! Yeah, I had thought of (read about) that, too, the whole sex for the carrying on of genes and the food thing (tweed and DW). Sounds plausible, for sure.

But then, why do most of us prefer to LOOK at those that don't jiggle as much? I get the whole thing about it not mattering once you love someone, and it is what is on the inside, and someone to BE with is different than someone to LOOK at, or someone just for a one nighter....

Why the discrepency? Any suggestions out there?

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: leprechaun
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 01:44 AM

What difference does it make as long as she's devoted and worships me and stuff?

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 01:32 AM

Actually, DW, that isn't the case about humans being the only ones who participate in recreational sex. Once the folks who study these sorts of things started looking at all behavior, and not just looking for certain types of behavior, especially in primates but by no means exclusive to them, they found a lot of recreational sex. And a lot of same-gender sex. A book came out a few years ago dealing with this topic; I can't locate the title right now.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: GUEST,DW at work
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 01:00 AM

Does anyone know if there is something similiar going on with the jiggly controversy? I have some ideas about child bearing/life expectancy etc...

Yeah. There was something on Discovery ages back about cleavege and the success of the 'Wonderbra'. The theory is that a good pair of "ta tas" squished up into a nice wobbly pair, looks like a butt. When we went round on all fours, we looked at butts. See a nice butt with a pair of rosy "lips" all ready for the taking - what the hell, go jump it, she's ready! The bigger the butt, the more likely she was to have an easy birth (yeah, I know, it means nothing) so she's more likely to have a surviving baby to carry your genes over, and hey, that's what sex is. A means to procreate and spread your genes (we can't get away from genes can we?), after all, humans are one of the very few species that do it for fun. Every other species it's purely for procreation or dominance.

And yes. I like jiggles. They make me feel safe and comfortable. Something that has a bit of give to it is really sexy, but I'm not into the gross flaps of flesh that some people crave. I like to be able to get my arms around at least 2/3s of a woman, and I don't want to have to be digging around for ages trying to find the target.

I'm not jiggly, but I do have a few squishy bits. Girl who just left me - OK, her name is Jan - says she has an hourglass figure, it just the sand has settled at the wrong end.

DW

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 12:41 AM

What a jumble of stuff going on in this thread!

Pants: they come in various sub-sets in the U.S. Some of them: juniors, misses, womens, petite, and up into the X-sizes, etc. Juniors have no hips, Misses have waists and hips, women's have fuller cut butts and hips and still some waist, and so it goes. I still wear Misses most of the time, but depending on the style and such, will occasionally buy a pair in the Women's range. The even sizes tend to denote the misses, the odd sizes the juniors and women's. I think. Don't quote me. I don't have trouble buying pants that fit, as long as I try on enough pairs. Sometimes I take them home and hem them. I wear a lot of belts. If you sew, a lot of options are available, and it is possible to make jeans and slacks that look just like the ones that come from the department store.

Bras: One name--Victoria's Secret. They make wonderful bras of all sorts. Personally, I like the non-padded demi kind that still let nipples show (believe it or not, American women DO have nipples). I enjoy being of a relatively smaller size (36B); nursing two children reduced my size some. You can buy thongs and slinky stuff in Victoria's Secret and the clerks don't bat an eye. Those garments don't stop at the small sizes, they are also made for the more robust shapes. Their models may be slim with incredible busts, but they understand that most women aren't shaped like that.

Our level of fitness determines how much we jiggle, and our cultures are such that prolonged physical labor is a rarity for a lot of people, so some of us jiggle more than we would given different amounts of labor. It seems silly to go to the gym to work out if one has a load of firewood to split and stack. Me, I lately get my exercise by carrying around 50-pound bags of thinset, 35-pound cases of tile, cans of paint, furniture, etc., and when I don't feel like staying indoors, I have a half acre of yard to tend. I don't have time for the gym, but I'm also in the best shape I've been in since my mountain climbing and park rangering days ceased 15 years ago. I don't jiggle much, but I have begun to realize that the traffic sometimes slows in the street out front when I'm bent over working in the garden. . . not bad as I breeze past my middle-40's.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 11:44 PM

This strictly my opinion and I am not speaking for all men. Just me.

I think it's because I(we) secretly wished or hoped or am glad I(we) am/are causing the other to jiggle.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Tweed
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 11:37 PM

....Back to the jiggles....I still haven't read anything from anyone with presumptions of why most of us find relative jiggling ok, even sexy... wrote Mz.Gamine

Mebbe we still have a memory from a long while ago when big kneed gals were considered fertile, healthy, and well fed (and therefore from a family or clan with food, a big plus back when we lived in stick huts and painted ourselves blue.) Earth goddessess mebbe.

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: MAG
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 10:52 PM

Oboy, this gives me a chance to chime in on one of my pet peeves, which is that the bra manufacturers don't seem to understand that we women are not all shaped the same way. We can get some variation with different styles, but it is really difficult for most everyone (female) I know to get a decent fit.

NONE of us want to clog dance or ride a horse bra-less. Anymore.

Someone in this neck of the woods has a song called "Flying Bras at Sunset" about the joy of getting home and flinging it off.

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Gamine
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 10:51 PM

Gray D: that is *just* the thing I am trying to get at...well one of the things. Why *is* that?! Beyond obvious answers, is there anything deeper?

Jeri: Yeah, belts work, sorta...but, well, you have the opposite thing (and I bet that sucks just as much!), it is so hard to explain why the belt thing doesn't always do the trick, even though logically it should. I'll try to explain: The butt fits, but then the waist, well, it usually fits in the front pretty well and the sides, too, but in the back, right at the small of my back, it just GAPES! Several inches of denim just in that spot, right above my jiggly butt. So I put a belt on and then I have these bundles of denim poking me in the back - very uncomfortable. It isn't like the waist is big all the way around so that the bundles of denim spread out; it is just in that one spot. And it looks darn ridiculous, let me tell you! And wear a shirt that is tucked in, or god forbid, one that rides a bit high to show off my stomach a bit: no way, not with that unsightly gathering of denim above my backside!

I have a pretty small waist and it's pretty flat for the most part, but I was a heptathalete in college so I have round buns and bigger than average thighs from all the jumping and hurdling and running I did. That combination just DOES NOT work when looking for jeans.

I would almost prefer to have no butt and have the waist fit...isn't that funny? Like having straight hair but wanting curly? Maybe we all just want what we can't have?

I dunno.

Back to the jiggles....I still haven't read anything from anyone with presumptions of why most of us find relative jiggling ok, even sexy...

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Anahootz
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 09:27 PM

Gimme Rubenesque any day.

CarolC- In regards to your A) Large bow, narrow stern or B) small bow, big stern...

C) all of the above

Is my final answer

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 09:16 PM

So I'm feeling like I must be weird...
If I get jeans so the waist fits, the butt's all saggy. Bought a pair of men's jeans and the butt fits, but the waist's too big. (Did I hear somebody say "belt?")

I personally don't care about jiggling anymore - I'm more concerned with all-out flopping. It can go beyond 'unattractive' and into the realm of 'dangerous'. And if I'm attracted to any physical feature on a man, it's their face - not how 'pretty' it is, but how it moves when they talk, laugh, etc. I've never been attracted to a particular body shape.

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 08:58 PM

jiggles?? well, I have known very large women who do not 'jiggle', and smallish ones who do (in the bust)...preferences?...yes, I have certain preferences...and I'll bet they are close to what 'most' women would choose for themselves if they had a magic button.

nothing to excess, able to move, bend, run and exercise without discomfort....shaped to fit clothes without serious alterations.... and healthy % body fat.

I do NOT care for very large breasts...nor for totally flat ones...(but would prefer smaller to larger)

...so, all that being said...so what?....I have never chosen my friends or lovers on any of those criteria--it just don't work that way. If someone I care about seems to be dangerously over or under-weight, I would encourage them to try to do something about it...but otherwise, if a person IS comfortable with themself, then it is none of my business.

.....for purely looking and fantasy?...well, hmmm....I absolutely HATE the Pamela Anderson type..*grin*....but mostly slender and shapely, I guess, if that makes sense.

oh...if she can sing, she's allowed almost ANY deviations...*smile*

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 08:28 PM

Hey Micca! Thanks! You're a sweety.

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Tweed
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 08:03 PM

Tommy Johnson said it...

Big Fat Mama, meat shake on her bone...

Big Fat Mama,..meat shake on her bone.

Ever'time she shake it another mama's out her home.

I've noticed that the older I get, the more I can find attractive about any woman. You're all just fine with me!

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Amergin
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 07:50 PM

hey...hes...come on over! just as soon as I meet LTS in the middle of the ocean....

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: hesperis
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 07:47 PM

I hate the jeans problem!!!! I am a size 6, and I get that too, the waist is huge if it fits the hips.

Wish they would make clothing for people with a womanly figure. If women have boyish hips, they can buy men's jeans, sheesh.

And why do jeans makers always make it so you can't actually PUT anything in the pockets unless you go to a larger size? Sheesh.

About the bras - some companies size their bras larger to make large women feel smaller, and some size them smaller to make small women feel larger. Seriously. (Yes, it's silly.)

I definitely prefer men with some flesh on them. When you're kinda skinny, you don't want to hug bony people, you get too many bruises that way. *g*

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Gray D
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 07:44 PM

Hmmm, let's try turning a corner here. My missus has always been curvy and jiggly. Sometimes more curvy and jiggly than others. However curvy and jiggly she's been, she's never liked her shape and I've always loved it. We started listening to other couple's comments about the issue and realised that we weren't the only ones to have this experience. This would seem to be a common phenomenon. With couples, the woman worries about her shape, the man enjoys it.

Why would that be, then?

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Chicken Charlie
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 07:43 PM

I can't believe I'm departing from the New Age Sensitive Male code long enough to answer this question, but maybe we have transcended that.

My two all-time personal preference-type ladies were way, way down on jiggle-meter readings. They were both trim, and healthily athletic without getting into 'butch.' Bottom line is that I spent years trying to convince them that they were no less seductive, foxy, erotic or American without bodacious ta-ta's [Officer & Gentleman], they refused to believe it and number two is researching enhancements so she can be the "woman" she always wanted to be. Or thinks everybody else thinks she should be.

I remain wedded [only figuratively, however] to the proposition [don't go there :)] that less is more, but I realize that I do not think as the world thinks. But I want to be like Spaw when I grow up, so I must not let that last thing bother me. Much.

Chicken Charlie

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 07:40 PM

Oh yes, some jiggle is nice...

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 07:08 PM

My honey says he likes a shapely woman. Not so overweight that she is in danger of ill health (both psyche and physical), and not so skinny that she looks like a 12 year old boy. Apparently, I am nearly just right (cuz there aint no "perfect" this side of heaven). And isn't that what *really* matters? Finding someone you love who fits?

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Greg B
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 07:06 PM

It makes, at very least, an excuse to sing:

'I spied a pretty fair maid with her tops'l's all a quiver' now doesn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 07:02 PM

Gamine

Sorry, I would have just PM'd you but you'd mainly posted as a guest so I wasn't bright enough to spot that I could have anguished more privately.

Kitty

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: artbrooks
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 06:58 PM

Well, I met herself when she was 17, and we've been together for 34 years now. I think she's gone from a man's Levi size 28-30 to a 32-30, but she claims she's too fat and is trying to loose weight...looks damn good to me. I'm afraid that my personal preference is for women who look just she does, and she doesn't jiggle much and isn't particularly top-heavy.

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Gamine
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 06:33 PM

Oh no! I was so misunderstood!! Herga Kitty, please believe me that I sympathize with you (though it doesn't seem I did a very good job with it). The "UGH!" above was an UGH of the "I know what you mean" variety of ughs. I, too, have that problem buying jeans, I too did not wear jeans for a long time and if I did they were several sizes too big for me and then "cinched". And I did not necessarily want to advertise Levi's either. My husband hears me lament so much about not being able to find jeans that fit me right, (sounds like fit ANY woman right, regardless of size), that he found the Levi's link for me.... oh,oh, oh how I sink inside when I think my voice has been heard in any other tone than I meant it to be. If you only knew how BIG my husband was when I met him you would know why his old jeans fit me now (just a hint: he's 6'5"!!!! and not thin)

I really *did* start this thread to see what the big deal was about jiggles...I really really really did.

I am sooo sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 06:01 PM

My body is not a temple - it is a bouncy castle!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 06:00 PM

Okay...

The verdict is in: a little bit of jiggle is cute and appealing...specially on the right person!

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 05:54 PM

Gamine

It's not "a whole thing". It's me as a person, the shape I am. And it's a problem which meant I didn't buy any jeans at all, for years. I have enough problems finding clothes that fit short curvy women without gratuitous UGHs. I thought you started this thread to find out how people really felt about body shapes - great to know that you think mine isn't valid. Or did you just start the thread so you could advertise Levi's?

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Kim C
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 05:54 PM

Gloredhel, even us size 6 gals have the same problem. Hard for me to find jeans that fit - they are either too tight in the bum or too big in the waist. And I'm not at all shaped funny. I actually do have hips! But I've found, personally, that a good many things that should fit me, are Too Big in the bust. And I'm not really that small-busted for my size.

I went into a trendy shop one time, enticed by a pair of ice-blue velvet jeans I saw in the window. Figured they wouldn't fit but I didn't have anything to lose by trying. You've heard of hip-huggers, right? Low-rise jeans? Well, these were beyond low-rise. These were Don't Bend Over or Your Whole Ass Will Show jeans. And not only that.... they fit in the bum.... but you guessed it. Too big in what was supposed to be the waist. They looked downright ridiculous.

I came out of the fitting room, exasperated. The salesperson said, Did those work okay?

I said, Lemme ask you this. What kind of person do these jeans actually FIT?

Oh, she said, they're kind of low, aren't they?

Yeah. Kind of low. Ha!

Twelve years ago, I wore a size 4 wedding dress. It had to be shortened and taken up in the bust.

It would be nice if women's clothing used the same measurements as men's - if you could buy a pair of jeans that were your waist and inseam, but cut in a womanly fashion. I guess that makes too much sense, though, huh? But I've noticed that even in brassieres, 34 doesn't always mean 34. Sometimes 34 is 32, other times it's 36. And sometimes 36 is 34. Why can't 34 just bloody be 34 fercryinoutloud?

I never felt any pressure to look like a magazine model as a teenager. I can't speak for anyone else.

Back to the jiggles.... you know, there are flattering fashions for all body types. That is, of course, when you can find something that fits! But seriously, every woman can be beautiful and sexy regardless of her size. That's where attitude comes in. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 05:53 PM

I love watching my partner move. And she jiggles a bit - so do I. But what I love best? Is when she turns and sees I'm looking at her and smiles that smile - Ah Yes - That is heaven.

We try to exercise and watch our diet for one reason - we figure it will extend the amount of time we will be able to share together on this earth. That is barring accidents and such.

And I don't know much about the "Whys" of it all. There are lots of studies out there that will attempt to define it. But nothing ever will. What makes the chemistry work is what people see - and I'm not sure it is about the physiology so much - as it is the subtle things that indicate a similarity of world view. A way of being I guess. Pretty existential I guess - but I can not for the life of me figure out why my Sweetie chose me.

I am a good partner - but how could she have known that? I knew because of what I could sense about her. And I am not even sure what it was I sensed about her! Awesome stuff this love.

Give me gentle jiggles everytime.

Give me a gentle jiggle
When I lie with you my dear
Give me a gentle jiggle
When we share our hearts
Give me a gentle jiggle
When the fun all starts
Give me a gentle jiggle
In all of your lovely parts.
Share with me your softness
As I've enough of the hard

Ode to my Partner

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 05:52 PM

Hmmmm....

Well, I prefer rather smaller and more slender types, but not anorexic, that's for sure. Actually there are so many different kinds of attractiveness, it really depends on the individual.

I'll say this...if anyone, male or female, can readily do all the basic yoga postures...then you can pretty well guarantee that they will have a lithe and attractive form. A body that works really well generally looks good too.

The opposite to this is the Homer Simpson approach to life...quite common in this town.

Which reminds me...Boy am I tired of seeing prematurely middle-aged looking women (some in their 30's, their 20's or even their teens!) with short UGLY men's haircuts and absolutely dumpy clothing! Do they have no pride or initiative at all?

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Mr Red
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 05:45 PM

was never more appropriate

"Different strokes for different folks"
**BG**

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 05:40 PM

Huggin' and a-chalkin'

and check the 'DT' for "If I Cold Shimmy Like My Sister Kate"

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Gamine
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 05:36 PM

Thread creep

UGH! I hate that whole: if the jeans actually fit my hips and ass they are HUGE around the waist. Strangely enough, my husbands old jeans do the trick just great, though don't ask me how.

Just so you gals out there know, Levi's offers a tailor made to order jean! I am serious. It is called the Personal Pair. You go to a Levi's outlet and get your measurements taken, pick your style and they send it off to cyberland to be made for you. It is about 10-20 bucks more expensive, but may be worth it! Just a suggestion.

Sorry about the creep, folks.

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: mousethief
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 05:36 PM

Who wants to be trendy?

"Fashion is rich people waving at the door"
--Paul Simon

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Gloredhel
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 05:33 PM

I'm ok with not being a size 6 (American sizes), but even the size 12 clothes seem to be made to fit the size 6 body type! (i.e. no hips, small bust) Makes it hard to be trendy. I am convinced that most clothing designers have no contact with real women.

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: DougR
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 05:21 PM

Yep, Sinsull, I caught it, and thought to myself, damn clever!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 05:05 PM

Over the years I've always had an hour-glass figure while progressing (?) from 34DD to 30HH, so dancing Cotswold Morris has always been out of the question, for aesthetic and centre of gravity reasons. Not being able to buy underwear at M&S, and having to trek to Oxford Street (Selfridges etc)is actually a real nuisance. So is finding that bras that defy gravity aren't compatible with sleeveless blouses, decollete dresses, or even T-shirts. (Strapless dresses, no way).

Plus, jeans that fit round the hips are too big round the waist.

Still, we weren't born to fit the clothes, they are supposed to be made to fit us.

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 04:06 PM

According to Taj Mahal "Big Legged Mamas Are back In Style Again".

However given Carols' choices, I'd have to say that I would take door number 1.

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Midchuck
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 04:01 PM

Say I got a fat rear end, that's just what I like
Say I got a fat rear end, that's just what I like
You can't use a tackhammer to drive a railroad spike!

- Dick McCormack

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: rangeroger
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 03:51 PM

All I can say is that I'm built for comfort not for speed.

rr

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Gamine
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 03:30 PM

ahh yes...thanks for clearing up the syncretism bit! And yes, I would say it was!!! :-)

Neat info. on the college study. Interesting stuff. Our minds are so wonderfully weird. The way we process self image is strange and fascinating..and scary, especially if you are a parent.

I wonder: Do parent's of boys have to do the same with their kids as parent's of girls. Is it the same but different? I imagine that boys have just as much of a need for affirmation (Read REAL BOYS,the male version of SURVIVING OPHELIA), but maybe in different ways? hmmmm

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: mousethief
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 03:19 PM

Blending belief systems: a hairy buddha.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: mousethief
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 03:19 PM

I think we must distinguish between what advertising portrays (and I lump all television shows and movies into "advertising") and what people really do in their real lives. I just read about a survey done with college women who were first measured for self-esteem (however one does that) and then looked at pictures either of models or pictures of colleagues and then were again asked questions designed to guage their self-esteem.

The ones who looked at svelte models showed no decrease in self-esteem; the ones who looked at svelte colleagues did.

Not sure what this proves, but it is suggestive that some people (some college women, anyway) are able to distinguish between advertising and reality.

Now if there were some way to make people happy with themselves and not compare themselves to others, I would surely force-feed it to my daughter. Alas, there doesn't seem to be a quick and easy cure. So one continues the slow process of affirming her whenever and wherever one can.

Being a parent isn't for wimps.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Gamine
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 03:17 PM

I MAY BE THREAD CREEPING HERE....

Mousethief:

Is what syncretism?

The definition as it pertains to blending language or the definition as it pertains to blending belief systems....

Hate those pesky misplaced modifiers!

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Gamine
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 03:12 PM

Right on, Amergin!

Hey SINSULL: yeah, I caught it, too (Dave's "in between" comment) Pretty funny stuff! It is worth a back look for those of you who missed it the first time.

---------------------------------------------------------

I am interested in the WHY's of these discrepencies (society saying one thing, but most of us really preferring to BE with something very different)...is there some sort of mechanism for our desires and preferences? Is there some sort of evolutionary trend? Is it all just what society throws at us?

I read once that men prefer woman with ruby lips - the face kind - because at one time (if you believe that at one time we may have been on all fours, and obviously naked)the color of our (please take no offense, it really was a scientific article) OTHER lips was what men most noticed (are you getting the anatomical picture/position right in your head?), the hue of which deepen in color when we were/are, shall I say, ready? And now, the synthetically ruby lips on our faces provide a distant lingering shock to a man's old brain - a sign to him that we are 'ready'. (even if you don't believe any of the claims to old brain, etc. it is fun to think about and speculate)

Does anyone know if there is something similiar going on with the jiggly controversy? I have some ideas about child bearing/life expectancy etc...

Anyone want to comment on what they think the mechanism may be as it pertains to jiggly vs. non-jiggly, evolutionarily or otherwise? Like I said before, I am really interested in the WHY's of this.

(and hey, if we can develop it enought to find a way to fit it into a bottle or jam it into a pill we will all make millions!)

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: mousethief
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 03:10 PM

Is that syncretism?

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 03:06 PM

A hairy Buddha? OOoooohhhh Amergin, start swimming now, meet you half way......

LTS

(nurse, the screens!!)

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Amergin
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 02:51 PM

well...I like women of all shapes and sizes....since I am look a bit like a hairy buddha myself...how can I expect others to starve themselves for me? I look inside....to the very soul....

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Morticia
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 02:31 PM

It's much more insidious than that....young girls are literally dying to look like that.....anorexia and bulimia are taking their toll on the young kids who believe all this crap and will never believe they can be liked for more than their looks...because all the tv and magazines reinforce the "be a size 6 or don't bother going out" mentality....bloody criminal, IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Kim C
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 01:35 PM

For me it is more about ME being happy with the way I look. At one time I had put on 16-20 pounds, and I wasn't happy. My clothes didn't fit and I didn't like the way I looked in my knickers. Mister, he couldn't have cared less.

However I wanted to go into middle age fit and in shape, so I lost the weight and have been exercising regularly ever since. At first it was a chore but now it's fun, and Mister and I both enjoy the benefits. It's okay if I never look like Anna Kournikova, but I would like to be as fit as I personally can be. Which means that I might always have a round belly, even if there's a potential 6-pack underneath. But hey, I guess that's all right for belly dancing, huh? ;-)

One thing I think young people may not recognize is that most models, and of course athletes, have to WORK at looking like they do.

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: SINSULL
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 01:26 PM

From Dave Bryant:
Did anyone read that besides me? Nicely turned, David.

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 01:14 PM

I do the jiggling and leave the juggling to Geoff!! And yes there is a £2 coin, Lynn.

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: GUEST,Lynn
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 12:48 PM

Liz - a two-pound coin??? Is there such a thing, or is that a bit of Brit slang that I missed??

Lynn

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: GUEST,gamine
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 12:44 PM

I had a feeling I would read all of you this way. What an honest fantastic bunch!

Here's the rub: if we all feel this way, why do we stress out so much about looking like that beautiful tennis gal Anna Kournikova, or model Cindy Crawford, or their male counterparts (funny, but it is a lot harder for me to come up with examples for the guy side). Obviously I think we all agree that to just let oneself GO completely is unhealthy and probably out of the question (though there may be something said for living a hedonistic lifestyle in all ways: food, drink, sex, to the excess [but that may be another thread]), but to obsess about being perfectly supple here, and perfectly plump down there, and perfectly flat right in the middle like the young girls I teach do, or my sister's at the pub do, or my wonderfully diverse size-wise male friends do...what are we thinking? Who are we trying to impress? Eachother? Ourselves? Some fashion phantom?

What a quandary!

Thanks to Nathan in Texas for keeping me honest and thanks to Skipjack K8 for the nice "language" comment!

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Micca
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 12:34 PM

Carol, of course not, you may be "pocket sized" in some respects but there is No Doubt you are ALL WOMAN!!!!!!!, and lovely with it!!! I should know , I have hugged you!!
but your Inner strength and self would make you very special in anyones world!!! and I am very happy you are a friend.

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 12:33 PM

I don't care so much about what jiggles, as long as her hips are broader than her shoulders !

On a slightly different point about cultural differences -- I once filmed a tribe in central Africa who thought the ultimate in feminine beauty was to have their two front teeth knocked out. Boy, when they grinned at you it was like a dentist's wet dream.

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: mousethief
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 12:09 PM

More and more I find that the women who attract me the most are those who most look like my wife, whom I rather fell in love with sight unseen (it was a cyberromance). (pic: click.

Prior to meeting her I was attracted to skinny redheads, largely (no pun intended) because of my first girlfriend in high school.

"I married her just because she looks like you."
--Lyle Lovett

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Kim C
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 11:17 AM

From what my guy friends tell me.... they find slender, shapely women attractive BUT when they find someone they really like, it don't matter all that much.

I mean, I really dig The Rock, to look at... but Mister, well, he's 6'2" and about 170. Weighs the same he did in high school at the age of 46. He don't have Rock-like muscles but he is lean and wiry.

I tend to prefer the tall, skinny types, but before I was married, I dated guys who weren't necessarily either one. Dave was large, bordering on fat, and I was absolutely crazy about him. I had a muscular boyfriend too, and he was ever so fine to look at - but I was crazy about him as well, and it really wouldn't have mattered. I would have followed him to the ends of the earth - but sadly, when he did go to the ends of the earth, I wasn't in a position to follow. C'est la vie. But I would have!!! ;-)In all, though, I think I got the better deal.

Looks may attract you to someome, but it ain't the thing that keeps you.

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 09:57 AM

Micca, your reply reminds me of that joke: "Why is it called a waist?" "Cos you could fit another pair of breasts on there".

Skipjack, you nailed it on the head! "As to lurve-making, the bisection of look and feel (if you leave the lights on!) is fulfilling in love, and ultimately repellant (from my male perspective, anyway) in 'casual' sex."

Hmmm, from this woman's perspective, it's preferable if the bloke's arse isn't smaller than mine, as usually seems to be the case (not that my arse is sizeable, just that I seem to keep sharing beds with kipper-hipped men).

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 09:49 AM

They can...

And do

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 09:48 AM

Why o why can't women go without bras in the USA?

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 09:17 AM

Does that mean it's all over between us Micca?

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 09:10 AM

Option A, without doubt

Find big fat bums a huge turnoff

But we're all different I guess...

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Nathan in Texas
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 09:09 AM

In the interest of keeping this a folk music forum, I submit the following opinion from Leadbelly.

KEEP YOUR HANDS OFF HER
(Huddie Ledbetter)

Keep your hands off, keep your hands off her,
Keep your hands off her, keep your hands off her,
Keep your hands off her, you know what I said,
You know she don't belong to you.

She's a heavy-hipped mama, she's got the great big legs.
She's a heavy-hipped mama, she's got the great big legs.
She's a heavy-hipped mama, she's got the great big legs.
Walking like she walkin' on soft boiled eggs.

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Micca
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 09:03 AM

CarolC, it HAS to be option B, on the principle that (in the bust dept) anything you cant get in your mouth is wasted*******BG***** and it is Horrible to snuggle up to a bony skinny bottom!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: AliUK
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 08:12 AM

As a male-jiggler myself I find that my preference is for women that don´t jiggle as much as I do, Especially when it comes to ´joggling´, but that doesn´t mean to say that I don´t like women who jiggle a little, as long as they don´t jangle as it plays havoc with the silk sheets.

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 07:26 AM

*G*

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 07:25 AM

You over the pear, Cags!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: gnu
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 07:23 AM

Of course it's what's inside and of course most people prefer middle-of-road and certainly we aren't discussing obviously unhealthy extremes. But, if you ask me, and you did, all men I know prefer plump to thin.

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 07:21 AM

Ok. Here's what I'd like to know. Here's your choice, guys...

A woman with a larger than average bust, and a small butt and narrow hips, or a woman with a sizable but and small bust?

Or is it six of one and half dozen of the other?

(And no, you can't have both. At least not in this question.)

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Mr Red
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 07:05 AM

speeking personally - it's what's inside (ignoring the obvious reference). Shape is not a prime consideration unless it impedes life!
Historically I have always had active partners - active enough for dancing anyway (vert & horiz).
the world pre-occupation with big boobs bemuses me, it seems to be a fantasy falshood.

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 05:03 AM

Carol, you are so footsure that I actually had the dictionary out to look apholstery up! Always scroll down.

Good point, Gammy, 'bout the look and the feel not connecting. My reply is that love is blind, and hurrah for that.

But talking of sexy, I have a colleague who purchases a low brow UK paper called the Daily Star, which is keenly ogled in the office, especially the Bot of the Day. I can reveal that the arses are getting bigger, and hurrah for that too.

As to lurve-making, the bisection of look and feel (if you leave the lights on!) is fulfilling in love, and ultimately repellant (from my male perspective, anyway) in 'casual' sex.

Your use of language is right-on jiggly, Gammy!!

Skipjack

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 05:01 AM

Well, "Essex Girl" isn't exactly sylph-like and I find her a very satisfying cuddle at night.

when they did a survey to find out whether men preferred ladies with skinny thighs or plump thighs, the results showed that what turned most men on was something in between !

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: fogie
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 04:41 AM

And heres me desperately trying to resume an athletic figure, like I had when I ran and cycled more. I blame playing instruments, I prefer practicing to back-jarring and boring excercises, the only sport I really like is squash, and I'm not at all sure that it isnt the visit to the pup afterwards that keeps me going. I noticed my figure took a turn for the worst quite suddenly around the 50 mark. My old mate Al who smoked like a chimney became a born again long distance runner at 50 and thinks nothing of spending all day running across Wales, and he's as lithe as a ferret. There's no justice in the world Its great to know that after a certain age what matters more is not necessarily entirely visual.

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 01:57 AM

(ahem... upholstery)

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 01:56 AM

I think a little bit of apholstery on a man can be a very nice thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 01:19 AM

From "She weighs 16 stone"

If you've seen more meat on a greasy spoon,
She won't keep you warm get rid of her soon....

The popularity of this song with male and female alike (depending on who is singing it) has proved the point to me over and over again.

And yes, I do like a bum that moves. Having said that, the ones you could bounce a £2 coin off are pretty nice too.

I believe the correct term is "something to grab hold of" - after all, who wants to keep sliding off??????

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 01:15 AM

'Show me a pretty little number,

Whenb she walks, she rolls like thunder,

Eyes as deep and dark as the deep blue sea,

Round right here and round right there,

Pretty red lips and her very own hair,

Wrap her up, she's the narural girl for me."

I find Janeane Garafolo every bit as sexy as I do Mag Helgenberger or my real Sweetie.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 01:03 AM

All you need to know is, The Man Show (on cableTV, USA) closes with the same item each week: "Girls on Trampolines."

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: GUEST,ozmacca
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 12:49 AM

I can do more than quote from one of the ultimate sages of the modern age, to whom we all turn in our moment of need for comfort and elucidation.

"Join the jigglers....."

(To those who don't know, it's an ad on the infernal box for tea-bags, and also refers to danglers...... hmmmmmm.)

Subject: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
From: GUEST,Gamine - who's 'in between' jiggly
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 12:28 AM

I got the idea for this post from reading another thread (can't remember which one, but I think KimC said something about pantyhose and jiggling, and Troll answered something funny and it got me thinking)

Here's the question: Do men (and women for that matter) have a 'jiggle' preference? I mean, I have heard my male friends say (and I think it is stolen from Pulp Fiction? or some movie like that): It is a shame that what looks good to the eyes does not always feel good to the touch.

I have discussed this at length with many of my male friends and I have surmised that most of them prefer (to sleep with, cuddle with, be with) women with a bit of meat on their bones, and by that I mean 'jiggly', even though most of those same male friends prefer (on their arm in public, in magazines, walking by on the street) to LOOK at women who do not jiggle, or jiggle very little.

I am not convinced this is a gender difference only, or a preference depicted solely by our society (though I am sure that greatly impacts our preceptions)...could it be a global preference, outside the realms of gender, outside the realms of societies rules?

I know I LOOK with MUCH appreciation at both jiggle-less men and jiggle-less women, but I know I actually LIKE a man with a bit of 'give', shall we say?, in his stomach and chest and arms when I am in bed with him (much more comfortable!) and I assume I would prefer that for a woman as well, if I were to ever sleep with one.

I know there is a lot to say here, as this topic undoubtably begs for:

witty comments (Who cares if they jiggle or not as long as they are naked and in bed with me!?) moral justifications (Who cares if they jiggle or not as long as they are a good person on the inside? Jeez, how superficial can you be, Gamine?)

agism-laced shots (Gamine, you must be past your prime and starting to jiggle and now you are getting worried. Or: Gamine, only one so young would be so concerned with that which is so NOT important in the grand scheme of things.)

feminism-laced absurdities (We will never be truly empowered until we embrace that which makes us jiggle! Jiggling women of the world UNITE! Who cares what those stinking men think anyway?)[by the by, I am definitely using BROAD and GROSS generalizations of 'feminism' here to illustrate a point and try really really really hard to be witty]

and I am sure a barrage of other perspectives, all of which I am looking forward to reading!

Peace to all, jiggly and non-jiggly alike, and let the games begin!