Help: Meaning od Siobhan???

Subject: Meaning od Siobhan???
From: GUEST,Garydon
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 05:30 PM

The name Siobhan was mentioned to me. It had a Celtic reference. I would like to know the phonetic pronunciation and the meaning.

Thanks for any help

Gary®

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning od Siobhan???
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 05:39 PM

According to a Website of Irish names:

SIOBHAN f Irish Gaelic form of Jehanne, the Norman form of JANE.

As far as pronunciation is concerned, it is more of less Shiv-vaun, (or at least that's how Siobhan O'Neill at school pronounced it!)

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning od Siobhan???
From: GUEST,firínne
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 06:24 PM

Siobhan is usually translated as Joan, Sinéad is Jane. Shee-vawn is the way most people say pronounce it.

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning od Siobhan???
From: mousethief
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 06:56 PM

I don't know what "od Siobhan" means but I'm just certain it's pronounced "osh."

Alex

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning od Siobhan???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 08:07 PM

Sinéad is Jane Janet really.

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning od Siobhan???
From: GUEST,firínne
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 08:21 PM

That's splitting hairs, McGrath. Ask Sinéad O'Connor!!!

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning od Siobhan???
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 08:59 PM

Yesterday in some thread I mentioned that I made the mistake of naming my youngest daughter Siobhan, which here in western Canada gets pronounced Sy-o-bun. Thankfully, she thinks it's funny, so she hasn't clocked my dial.

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning od Siobhan???
From: little john cameron
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 09:11 PM

Mah pals dochter is caed Grainne. Grawn-ya.Imagine whit she got at school.ljc

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning od Siobhan???
From: Fiolar
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 09:22 AM

Always amazes me when "experts" in languages would never dream of pronouncing a word wrong in say French, German, Spanish or Italian. Yet when it come to Irish (or Celtic) make a right balls out of the pronounciation. I am not just talking the average professor either. I shall never forget watching a film from one of the respected Hollywood studios some years ago. It was a horror film and one of the characters in it was explaining to some others about the dangers of black magic. "Sam Hain" she explained was one of the times when the dead could walk. I nearly fell off my chair. "At least", I yelled, "get the bloody thing pronounced right." She meant "Samhain" pronounced "Sow-In." "Sow" as in a female pig by the way not as "to sow corn."

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning od Siobhan???
From: Declan
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 09:42 AM

Where I come from Siobhan is pronouced like Shove on as in Knock Knock Whos there ? Siobhan Siobhan who ? Shove on your knickers, you're mothers coming.

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning od Siobhan???
From: mousethief
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 11:51 AM

I have always wondered, since I learned of the word Samhain, if this is the origin of the phrase "Sam Hell" (as in, "What in the Sam Hell are you talking about?").

I was taught to pronounce it, "SAW-win."

Alex

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning od Siobhan???
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 12:07 PM

Fiolar, are you sure Sam Hain isn't Peter's evil brother?

One of the problems with suggesting Irish pronunciations is to get an "English" transcription which works on both sides of the Atlantic (and which is sensitive to the fact that there's more than one "American accent"). Another is variations between dialects of Irish.

For Siobhán, having learnt Munster Irish throughout my schooling, I would suggest "Shove-AWN".

But a Donegal person would probably suggest something like "SHIV-enn".

One of the things that amuse but also mildly irritate me is the fact that some people in the US go as far as to adopt the spelling Caitlin(n) for their daughters, but then pronounce it as if it were KATE-linn, whereas the Irish pronunciation is almost indistinguishable from the usual English pronunciation of "Kathleen". It almost seems like protesting their Irishness too much.

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning od Siobhan???
From: Mad4Mud
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 12:27 PM

Speaking of Americans not understanding the "foreign" names they've blessed their offspring with (and no, I'm not US-bashing. I'm as American as they come so don't even think of it!) I overheard a woman calling her daughters Shannon and Brittany. I told her wasn't it interesting that both her daughters had geographic names. She looked bewildered. I said, "You know, Brittany in France and Shannon in Ireland." She still looked bewildered. I said, "You know, the province of Brittany in France and the River Shannon in Ireland?" She still looked bewildered so I gave up.

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning od Siobhan???
From: mousethief
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 12:33 PM

You can lead a horse to water....

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning od Siobhan???
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 12:37 PM

OT When I get around to it, I plan to compose a jig which will be called "The spears of Brittany", but I'm afraid that as usual I'll be the only person who gets my own joke.

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning od Siobhan???
From: mousethief
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 12:46 PM

Now if you had said "the spears of broccoli" -- no wait, broccoli comes in florets. The "Spears of Asparagus." But that's too far afield.

Alex

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning od Siobhan???
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 01:09 PM

Most Americans (and Canadians) will insist on pronouncing all foreign words and names according to the most common English phonetics. Naturally, Caitlin becomes Kate-lin, shortened to Katie by her friends (you may find Cat-lin in the south. (Caithness?)
Sean is seen, (see-ann in the south), and is often presumed to be female.
I would guess that 90% of the people with Irish ancestry in North America have no idea how to pronounce Irish words. I am one of them.
APC, it took me awhile to get the joke. Liking dogs, the first thing that came to mind was Brittany spaniels (not a B. S. fan). Guiness is often pronounced Guy-ness. Perhaps because of the cowboy showman and entrepreneur, Texas Guinan. Which makes me wonder, what is the correct pronunciation?

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning od Siobhan???
From: Dorrie
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 02:18 PM

hwello my name is infact SIOBHAN and i say it ssh as in be quite and vaughn as in jonny i have been told it means lots of different thjings. they do call me siobhanyourknickers at college and i genuinly hadnt heard it till i started at wyke!

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning od Siobhan???
From: mousethief
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 02:23 PM

I've been living in these United States for well nigh unto 41 years now, and have NEVER seen a female Sean, nor heard anybody opine that they thought the name feminine.

Further, if you see a word in print, how the hell else are you supposed to pronounce it? There aren't Gaelic-American dictionaries on every streetcorner. If you want me to pronounce it phonetically, then spell the damned thing phonetically.

Alex

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning od Siobhan???
From: Mad4Mud
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 02:27 PM

Alex, you've never heard of the actress Sean Young?

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning od Siobhan???
From: Sorcha
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 02:30 PM

Our Kate's name is Caitlin (with the fada on the birth cert.) We call her Kate, but when the whole name is called for it IS Kathleen! Slightly more of a long a sound than the English ah but Kathleen it is!

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning od Siobhan???
From: mousethief
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 03:02 PM

Nope. But I've heard of Sean Lennon, Sean Connery, and --- well, you get the drift.

Alex

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning od Siobhan???
From: Mad4Mud
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 03:04 PM

Don't worry, Alex. I still think Ashley and Taylor should be just men's names!

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning od Siobhan???
From: mousethief
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 03:12 PM

Girls will be boys and boys will be girls. --Ray Davies

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning od Siobhan???
From: dorareever
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 03:52 PM

Thinking about how Americans or any other English speaking people would pronounce my name is scary!*lol* My name is Chiara BTW,is Italian-is pronounced key-ah-rah or kee-ah-rah maybe.So now you know. Oh and I pronounce Siobhan shee-vaun.And Caitlin Kate-lyn,even though I know that the right way is Kat-lyn.Sometimes I use Kate-lyn for the American Caitlins and Kat-lyn for the Irish Caitlins.

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning od Siobhan???
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 05:18 PM

A woman next door is named Shauna (Irish ancestry). How would that be spelled in Ireland? Shawn or Shaun are not uncommon spellings of Sean.

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning od Siobhan???
From: weepiper
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 05:44 PM

Sean ('shawn') is an Irish form of John, Sian ('shan') is a Welsh form of Jane. That might be where the confusion arose. I've never heard either pronounced 'seen' though. By the way, these names are spelt phonetically... just in a different language.

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning od Siobhan???
From: mousethief
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 05:50 PM

Pedant.

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning od Siobhan???
From: GUEST,firínne
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 05:53 PM

As far as I am aware the name Shauna is fairly modern. I assume it was adopted as a feminine form of Sean. So therefore there would be no correct or incorrect way of spelling it. As a matter of fact, it would be the equivalent of Joanna.

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning od Siobhan???
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 06:38 PM

Thanks, weepiper and firínne. Sean is usually pronounced Shawn here in western Canada, but in the states my son, Sean, has been called Seen when he registers or cashes travelers checks there. The names Siobhan and Sean are almost unknown in some areas, particularly the south.

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of Siobhan???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 07:30 PM

"Further, if you see a word in print, how the hell else are you supposed to pronounce it?"

Well the most interesting way is to ask on the Mudcat, of course. Or for those who are shy, spend five minutes with a search engine and you'll always come up with the goods.

Before the internet, of course, there have been dictionaries which provide pretty good information on that kind of thing.

It seems to me that, when you learn a name from someone who has that name, you accept their pronunciation, even if it's different from the way other people might say it -it's a folk variant. But when you learn it from print, I think there's a duty to make some effort to find out how it's pronounced in the community it comes from. Good manners.

Especially if you are giving it as name to a child who is going to have to live with it, and who might find themselves really brought down say on a trip to Ireland when they find the way they think their "Irish" name sounds is nothing like the way anyone in Ireland would pronounce it.

One lad whose name always sets me wondering is the Yorkshire born actor Sean Bean (Boromir). What were his parents thinking of? And how did they pronounce those names?

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning od Siobhan???
From: GUEST,firínne
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 07:50 PM

I don't know about the Boromir bit, but I can't find anything wromg with Sean Bean's name. Think Behan, it's pronounced the same. [We all know how Sean is pronounced!]

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning od Siobhan???
From: michaelr
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 08:04 PM

Doesn't "sean bean" somehow mean "old woman"? I seem to remember that there's a song with those words.

Michael

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning od Siobhan???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 08:09 PM

The problem is that the name when you look at it rather invites people to jokingly rhyme the two. If those were the names he carried at school in Sheffield it might have been difficult. Of course that might have been the idea, "Boy named Sue" style. "We all know how Sean is pronounced!" - there are a fair number of people who don't, or won't.

Boromir? Well, Sean was the guy who played him in the movie Lord of the Rings.

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning od Siobhan???
From: little john cameron
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 08:14 PM

I just finished reading"Parzival" by Wolfram von Eschenbach.Try pronouncing the names in there.
Farjelastis,Ipopotiticon,Conwinamura.
I realise these are pronounced phonetically,but it is hard to get the tongue round them.ljc

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning od Siobhan???
From: Fiolar
Date: 15 Jun 02 - 05:36 AM

An Pluimeir Ceolmhar: Funny that you should pronounce Siobhan in the way you mentioned. I was also brought in Muunster (Cork to be exact) and we always pronounced Siobhan as "Shiv-Awn." Goes to show. Incidentally regarding children's names, there was a hoot in the recent series of "Auf Widersehn Pet." Moxie is telling Kevin about his nephew and calls him "Gooey." "Gooey", says Kevin, "How is it spelt?" "G.U.Y.", replies Moxie. Yes, parents are to blame for a great deal in regard to naming their offspring.

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning od Siobhan???
From: Fiolar
Date: 15 Jun 02 - 05:46 AM

Mousethief: Actually the phrase is "What in the Sam Hill." And yes he was a real person. Try the following site for info.
www.livinggoldpress.com/samhill.htm

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning od Siobhan???
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Jun 02 - 11:21 AM

Guy is pronounced Ghee in much of Canada. The French population.

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning od Siobhan???
From: GUEST,An Pluiméir Ceolmhar at home
Date: 15 Jun 02 - 11:30 AM

... and freshly defragged.

Fiolar, I'm sure you'd agree that when we're talking about an unstressed syllable, giving a phonetic representation that's valid from Vancouver to Germany is a tricky business. Maybe the difference between our respective pronunciations isn't as acute as it might seem in writing, or maybe it's because my most influential Irish teacher was a Kerryman. But I would certainly proniµounce "ionad" as "UN-nad", not "INN-ad", and I would colour the neutral or centre vowel of Siobhán with an "a" rather than an "i".

Dicho, I know they say Guinness doesn't travel well, but I'm appalled at what you tell us people are apparently doing to the name. The first syllable is stressed, and sounds like the "gin" in "begin". The second syllable is unstressed and has a "neutral" vowel. You could say "Begin us" and then just leave out the "be".

Seana and Seona are, as far as I know, modern attempts (my guess is late 1970s) at a feminine version of Seán - or else they may come from Scotland.

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning od Siobhan???
From: Big Mick
Date: 15 Jun 02 - 11:40 AM

Isn't it funny that when our Irish born cousins pronounce one of these names differently (even within the same language form as in the case of Fiolar and An Pluimeir Ceolmhar), then it is somehow different than when Americans have different pronounciations? As I recall, around the end of the nineteenth century and the beginning of the twentieth century, there was more Irish spoken in the area around Chicago, probably in New York as well, than there was in Ireland outside of the Gaeltacht areas. Please understand my context here, I am not being difficult or argumentative, just raising it as a question. It seems to me that within the dialects that exist within Ireland there are different pronounciations, as well as within districts inside of those dialects. So it shouldn't be surprising that there would be different pronounciations in the States.

With regard to Americans that don't even know what the name means, yeah, I suppose there is merit to that. I know a woman here whose first name is "Ciaran". And the Uncle who named her was a prominent Irish born Priest. Never did figure out that one. My own daughter is named "Ciara" and she is constantly correcting those that want to pronounce it "See-era" like the mountains. And I went to school with a woman whose name was "Shawn Hage".

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning od Siobhan???
From: GUEST,Pluiméir
Date: 15 Jun 02 - 12:12 PM

Mick, it's a bit like the difference between learning a tune from a book and learning from the living tradition. One might be the ideal solution, but that doesn't rule out the other as totally invalid.

I don't think anyone expects Americans to reproduce perfectly the sounds of any precise dialect of Irish, but I imagine many would like to be able to construct an approximate equivalent from the range of sounds that they can comfortably use.

Hence, guidance on major distinctions like whether a C is pronounced K or S is useful, as your daughter will be aware. It's particularly useful for parents contemplating a choice of name for their offspring.

When anyone on Mudcat or Chiff and Fipple asks for advice on Irish pronunciation, I try to give the most foolproof advice I can, but am conscious that the same attempted "phonetic transcription" may be picked up differently by people in differnet parts of the world whose accents in English may vary considerably. I'm also aware that there are several people who have much better Irish than I have, but they may not always open the threads where these questions arise. I mentioned the two possible pronunciations of Siobhán as an illustration of that there are variations in pronunciation (OK, maybe I was asbestos-coating myself against a flame from someone who learnt a different pronunciation).

And by the way, I shouldn't have limited myself to the Vancouver-Germany region, I unthinkingly overlooked several Mudcat stars from the other side of the globe (they know how they are!).

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning od Siobhan???
From: Big Mick
Date: 15 Jun 02 - 12:32 PM

I suppose, Pluiméir, but what do you do with those in the States for whom it was a living tradition. Spoken in the homes, that sort of thing. In the Grand Rapids area there was a bit of an anomaly. Let me explain. Larger cities, like Chicago, literally had neighborhoods of folks from specific regions of a country. It wasn't only an Irish neighborhood, but it was a Cork neighborhood, etc. In fact, the oldest neighborhood in Detroit is called Corktown. In towns like Grand Rapids (secondary in size to cities like Detroit, Chicago, New York) the immigrant families from a country grouped by country of origin. So it wasn't unusual to hear several of the dialects in the same conversation. Those that learned the language from these elders often would have the influences of several forms mixed in. The group of second and third generation learners/speakers is admittedly small but often the language was affected by distance.

Interesting stuff, eh?

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning od Siobhan???
From: ard mhacha
Date: 15 Jun 02 - 05:21 PM

Fiolar, Prounced the same way up north here in Armagh, shiv-ann. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning od Siobhan???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jun 02 - 05:46 PM

I think the point Big Mick is making ties in with the distinction I made between a name you learn from somone who has lived with it, and one you get out of a book. The way words and names are pronounced changes, otherwise most people in Western Europe would still be speaking Latin. Respecting living tradition means respecting changes.

But that's a very diffeent thing from picking a name out of print and not having the curiosity of manners to find out what it sounds like where it's in common use.

The business of men's names being taken over by women is another issue entirely. Names like Joyce, Shirley, Evelyn and even Robin. Myself, I don't like it, but it's been going on long enough, and there's not much to be done about it. I know a Ciaran who on occasion has found that at an interview it turns out they'd been expecting a woman along. (It never seems to happen the other way round, with women's names becoming men's names.)

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning od Siobhan???
From: hobbitwoman
Date: 15 Jun 02 - 06:47 PM

An Irish name which is becoming quite popular in these parts is Aislin, which I think is actually spelled Aisling. But it doesn't matter, because while I've heard it's pronounced Ashleen or Ashlyn, people around here pronounce it the way it's spelled - A-slynn, long "a". Which makes me a little bit crazy but then I was a little bit crazy to begin with! :o) Not nearly so as my non-Irish husband was, though, when I told him I wanted to name our child Siobhan Aislin. Fortunately for him, we had a boy and called him Cory Michael (he was born 26 years ago today) which went well with our German sounding last name but my father assumed Cory was short for Cornelius because after all there is no St. Cory!

Annie

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning od Siobhan???
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Jun 02 - 07:43 PM

One problem is the commoner vowels. In most languages, a, e, i, o, u is ah, ay, ee, oh and oo (ignoring those calling for umlauts, etc.) while English usually calls for ay, ee, ai (aye), oh and yew.
Among the consonants, c gives trouble because it may be hard (k) or soft (see). In Italian, ce is che, ci is cha, ch is k, and co, cu, ca etc. are k. Irish words transcribed into English, e. g., Sean, Siobhan (Sioban) must have similar rules, but we have no handy reference unless some Irish individual tells us- otherwise we apply the English rules. It would be nice to know the general guidelines.
Ciaran would be a complete mystery to most over here. At a guess- Karen? Sharon?

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning od Siobhan???
From: GUEST,firínne
Date: 15 Jun 02 - 08:04 PM

Maybe there was more Irish spoken in America at the beginning of the 20th century than there was in Ireland, but the language wouldn't have stayed pure for very long. It would become a travesty of what it was. It is nothing to do with dialect. The same thing happened to the English language in America. The English-speaking Irish, of which I am one, would probably have the correct vowel sounds for to speak Irish more so than the Americans would. By the way, Aisling is pronounced ash (as in the ash tree) - ling (rhymes with sing). The ng at the end is soft and runs together. Dropping the g from the name corrupts it completely. It's no longer a vision!

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning od Siobhan???
From: GUEST,firínne
Date: 15 Jun 02 - 08:14 PM

All C's in Irish are hard.......there is no such thing as a soft C ! My daughter's been reading through the most recent posts and says that if English rules had been applied in America in the first place, they wouldn't have half as much trouble with the English language as they have now.

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning od Siobhan???
From: Gray D
Date: 15 Jun 02 - 08:22 PM

My, my! You boys and girls are taking part in quite an historic debate here (but it is a folk site, after all).

As a tip, try checking out Irish fellah George Bernard Shaw's introduction to "Pygmalion". See if you agree.

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning od Siobhan???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jun 02 - 08:22 PM

All makes me think of the bit in Harry Enfield's show where Wayne and Waynetta Slob are discussing what to call their new baby, and "Ashtray" is suggested. "Naah, that's a boy's name" says Waynetta.

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning od Siobhan???
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Jun 02 - 08:32 PM

firínne, what you say is true. A great grandfather of mine came and signed in the Union Army. Any Irish he knew would be quickly superceded. He married an American of English stock. Their daughter, my grandmother, learned no Irish. I think this was true in many cases. Men came over, went west, married, and the children were raised in an American environment.
Irish that remained in cities like Boston or Chicago would have Irish neighborhoods for a generation, but except for names, their descendents rapidly lost their Irish roots.

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning od Siobhan???
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 15 Jun 02 - 08:35 PM

Siobhan is pronounced shivAWN or shuh VAWN in some parts of Ireland and shoowawn (with equal stress on the syllables) in others.

Samhain (pronounced SOWunn) is one of the festivals of turning seasons; it's the one celebrated on the date when Christians celebrate Hallowe'en (All Hallows' Eve). It has nothing to do with the name Siobhan.

I don't know of any meaning for the name Siobhan, though there may be one.

Aisling is pronounced ASHling, and means a dream, or a vision, really; there's an eighteenth-century poetic form called the Aisling poem which celebrates Ireland as a beautiful young woman waiting for Bonnie Prince Charlie, under various guises, to come and rescue her; some hope, he was off burying himself in a keg of whiskey somewhere.

Ashtray is a very nice name for a child. Maybe with Gauloise and Sobranie as middle names?

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning od Siobhan???
From: Big Mick
Date: 15 Jun 02 - 09:34 PM

Ciaran in English would be Kevin.

firinne, I am not sure what you are getting at with the word "travesty". Did you mean it to sound demeaning or am I reading into it? If so, I most sincerely apologize. If not, then I need to know what you base such a comment on?   

Mick

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of Siobhan???
From: GUEST,Brían
Date: 15 Jun 02 - 09:54 PM

The native speakers I talk to are from Galway, and they usually pronounce Siobhán Shoo-awn. I get in arguments with my brother's wife when I pronounce their daughter's name that way. Of course her people are from Kerry and are pronouncing the name it would sound in Munster. I was told Shawna is a corruption of Siobhan. BTW, the pronounciation of Kate-lin for Cáitlín is one of my pet peeves, but I rarely engage in that battle with other Americans. :-)

Brían

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning od Siobhan???
From: firínne
Date: 15 Jun 02 - 10:14 PM

Mick I'm not too sure there is an English form of Ciaran. Caoimhín is Kevin. I used the word travesty for want of a better word. What I meant was that people cannot hold on to their own language when they emigrate. It only degenerates. No offence meant.

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning od Siobhan???
From: Big Mick
Date: 15 Jun 02 - 10:42 PM

Thanks for the quick response. I figured that is what you meant, and I hope you don't mind me asking. And I agree that it deteriorates, as I am the proof of that.

And thanks for the correction on Ciaran (where are the damn fada's when I need them.........LOL). Not sure what I was thinking about, but you are correct on this. Ciaran (and the more modern feminine form - Ciara) refer to the dark one. I have always taken this to mean dark in the sense that the old ones would use it, meaning something on the order of a deep thinker or ponderer. Not dark in terms of color or complexion which would be dorcha, yes? It has been so long.......................

Mick

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning od Siobhan???
From: Hrothgar
Date: 16 Jun 02 - 05:17 AM

Given the problems that North Americans have with English, you can understand why the poor bastards don't really have a hope with Gaelic.

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning od Siobhan???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Jun 02 - 02:37 PM

Ciaran in English would be Kevin.

It certainly isn't - as has been pointed out Kevin is the Engkish way of writing the name that can be written in all kinds of impressive ways in Irish, Caoimhín being one of the simpler ways.

In a sense Ciaran is already a partially anglicised form of a name more correctly spelt Ciarán in Irish. A more fully anglicised version is Kieran (since there's no K in Irish.) (And in both spellings they are starting to be quite widely used in England by people without any Irish background, the same as happened to Kevin in a previous generation.)

Neither name has an English or wider European equivalent in the sense that a name like Siobhan or Sean has. Those were names common to other countries in Europe, with the Irish names being translations of them; Ciaran and Kevin, it seems, were Irish names to start with.

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning od Siobhan???
From: Big Mick
Date: 16 Jun 02 - 02:49 PM

McGrath, if you read my first sentence of my last post you will see that I know it needed a fada, but I just couldn't make the damn thing work for some reason. I have never accepted using the K for it.

Mick

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning od Siobhan???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Jun 02 - 08:32 PM

K does have the advantage of stopping people pronouncing it as if it began with S or Ch.

I've stuck with the Engish version for my own name Kevin rather than Caiomhen or Caiomhghen or any of the others, because life is too short to try explaining why that spells Kevin.

But Ciaran rather than Kieran any time, with or without the fada. (Fada forgive me...)