BS: PBS 'In Search of Ancient Ireland'

Subject: RE: BS: PBS 'In Search of Ancient Ireland'
From: PeteBoom
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 11:18 AM

I saw the first episode last night. Seemed not bad at all. Rather flies in the face of the faith-an-begorrah/shamrock crowd, but so much the better. Parts of what they said reminded me of Simon James' "Atlantic Celts" book that caused such a scuffle a few years ago.

Pooka, the videos were something like $24.95 plus shipping - so figure $30 roughly.

Greg Stephens - you're absolutely right with the 'spurious label "Celtic"' bit. Spot on. I've seen no reliable academic (or other) reference that could show ANY evidence that the "Celtic" peoples thought of themselves as anything other than members of a given tribal affilition or as being NOT "them" - whoever "them" might be.

Malcolm, your point on the "Celtic Twilighters" is also a good one - with one caveat. Folklore tends to have its roots in something. What that something IS can be argued over. Where I was in Ireland when there (early 80's at the last), there were old folks who swore that Lady Greogry got some of the bits wrong, and would go on to explain why.

Anyway - off to work...

Pete

Subject: RE: BS: PBS 'In Search of Ancient Ireland'
From: The Pooka
Date: 19 Jun 02 - 10:05 PM

I'll vote for the Men of the Bags over the Man from the Piltdown, any day. But my first-preference ballot goes to Men of the Deeps. (Up Cape Breton!)

Haw yersel' ljc, ye gud aul' Newfie Scot! Thank ye for the Blue Tootie! (Forgive flawed dialect; I'm workin' on it. :)

Subject: RE: BS: PBS 'In Search of Ancient Ireland'
From: little john cameron
Date: 19 Jun 02 - 09:54 PM

Haw there Pooky auld freen.Here's a site a postit a while ago tae day wi' auld whistles an' stuff the ARCHEOLOGISTS dug up in Ireland.YE CAN HEAR THEM TAE.Toot here

Subject: RE: BS: PBS 'In Search of Ancient Ireland'
From: firínne
Date: 19 Jun 02 - 09:41 PM

Let's just say the archaeologists don't always get it right either. Remember the 'Piltown man'?? {I assume it was me you were warning!]

Subject: RE: BS: PBS 'In Search of Ancient Ireland'
From: The Pooka
Date: 19 Jun 02 - 09:36 PM

Firinne - bagmen?? Goodness.

Videotape of the series can be ordered via phone [phone]. That's a USA tollfree number of course, but I presume it can be reached from elsewhere if desired. (?) Something like $24 US, I think it said. Twenty-something. (Jaysus ye'd t'ink I was gettin' a commission from Tourism Ireland, corporate sponsor of the series.)(Hmm..!! *saaaay*, now.....)

Subject: RE: BS: PBS 'In Search of Ancient Ireland'
From: greg stephens
Date: 19 Jun 02 - 09:36 PM

The 17th century chappie: I'm afraidI cant remember his name at the minute but its too lateto look him up. he was the very clever amateur scholar who first noticed the linguistic connections between the two families(Manx,Irish and Scottish gaelic on the one hand, and Breton, Cornish and Welsh on the other) and decided to call them "Celtic" languages), He used that name because Caesar referred to some of the inhabitants of Gaul as "Celtae", and the Greeks referred to some people in the north as Keltoi.(I am simplifying a bit here, but that's basically it).From that time on, "Celt" gradually became used as a name for people from the relevant regions, and the use of the name hugely influenced the interpration of historica and archaeologocal data.This was given an enormous boost by the rise of local nationalism in 19th century Europe ,and also coloured by some unfortunate aspects of Indo-European/Aryan theories about populatiopn movements My point isthat modern research is rapidly adding to, and changing, these concepts, and perhaps the attachment of a spurious label "Celtic"(never used by the people themselves so far as we know)) was a mistake we should eventually acknowledge. Personally I find it increasingly meaningless and divisive in the research I do into regional musical styles,.(If this is a little rambling it may be put down to the late hour and a certain amount of vino).. ,, .

Subject: RE: BS: PBS 'In Search of Ancient Ireland'
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 19 Jun 02 - 09:31 PM

My last was in reply to ljc, incidentally; I'd warn fir&iacte;nne that it's risky taking "history" largely invented a thousand or so years later on trust! Listen to the archaeologists rather than the monks or the "Celtic Twilighters", and you'll get a less romantic, but more reliable view.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS 'In Search of Ancient Ireland'
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 19 Jun 02 - 09:26 PM

Well, I certainly wouldn't argue with that. I look forward to seeing the programmes in the UK at some point; I expect we'll get them eventually.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS 'In Search of Ancient Ireland'
From: firínne
Date: 19 Jun 02 - 09:24 PM

I don't know anything about 'neo-pagans' or coffee tables, but I do know that the Fomorians were wiped out by a plague and many were buried in Tallaght, which as every schoolboy knows, means the plague-grave. I, for one, don't regard that as being fanciful. And furthermore, Greg Stephens, the Firbolgs were descendants of the Nemedians, who originated in Scythia. Their name means literally 'men of the bags'.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS 'In Search of Ancient Ireland'
From: little john cameron
Date: 19 Jun 02 - 09:19 PM

Aye Malcolm,ye're probably richt.Mah point is that it goes waaaay back.ljc

Subject: RE: BS: PBS 'In Search of Ancient Ireland'
From: The Pooka
Date: 19 Jun 02 - 09:16 PM

Well, having just watched Part 2 ("Saints") and been utterly charmed by it, this old sinner is ready for his barefoot climb up Croagh Patrick. / Better quick go say a Rosary, for this fit of pilgrim zeal to pass. :)

But wow: that Skellig Michael! Like to go see that.

OK Mudcat scholars (and you are many & learned): what say you of this religion-centered episode? Any little bit of "spin" to it?

(Hey there, ljc. How ya doin'?)

Subject: RE: BS: PBS 'In Search of Ancient Ireland'
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 19 Jun 02 - 09:00 PM

Unfortunately, that site is full of fanciful theories long-since discredited, though still regularly promulgated by wishful thinkers. It's not insignificant that many of the bibliographic references are to modern works of the "neo pagan" coffee-table variety, and to "pulp" children's fantasy fiction.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS 'In Search of Ancient Ireland'
From: little john cameron
Date: 19 Jun 02 - 09:00 PM

Right.!!!

Subject: RE: BS: PBS 'In Search of Ancient Ireland'
From: firínne
Date: 19 Jun 02 - 08:58 PM

What about Partholan, the Formorians and the Nemedians? They inhabited Ireland long before the Firbolgs or the De Danaan!

Subject: RE: BS: PBS 'In Search of Ancient Ireland'
From: little john cameron
Date: 19 Jun 02 - 08:51 PM

I am afraid I am not familiar with this 17th century chappie.It would seem to me that this thread concerns Celtic origins of the Irish people.However,rather than blabber on I suggest reading this.All documented with bibliographic notes.celts

Subject: RE: BS: PBS 'In Search of Ancient Ireland'
From: greg stephens
Date: 19 Jun 02 - 08:25 PM

I played a gig in Stoke yesterday, in the band were people from England Wales Ghana Liberia Afghanistan Iraq Nigeria Armenia, all with mixed ancestry(blood and cultural).Probably the odd bit of Milesian in there.So it goes on. So it went on.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS 'In Search of Ancient Ireland'
From: greg stephens
Date: 19 Jun 02 - 08:16 PM

Well, maybe,ljc, but how come nobody had ever heard of this great Celtic family until a 17th century antiquary invented it? (from, admittedly, the very real similarities between Cornish, Welsh, Breton, and Irish Scottish and Manx Gaelic).All of which places lie next to each other.And to the other places with "Celtic"language relics(Scandinavia, France, Belgium, Germany, holland etc). And those Firbolgs sound suspiciously like the Vir Belgae.Our identity and history isnt threatened by modern research, its just changing and becoming more enriched and interesting. And in another 200 years it will change again. But we wont.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS 'In Search of Ancient Ireland'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Jun 02 - 08:13 PM

(And of course I should have put the Scots in there as well.)

Subject: RE: BS: PBS 'In Search of Ancient Ireland'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Jun 02 - 08:12 PM

And then came the Danes and the Normans and the English and the Dutch; and it's still going on, thank God.

Celtic is a linguistic and cultural term. It's got nothing whatsoever to do with any particular "race", any more than Roman had by the time they were through. (Or American for that matter.)

Subject: RE: BS: PBS 'In Search of Ancient Ireland'
From: little john cameron
Date: 19 Jun 02 - 08:02 PM

I just noticed this thread.Yes,the Irish people are well aware of their history and mythology. The Irish race of today is popularly known as the Milesian Race, because the genuine Irish (Celtic) people were supposed to be descended from Milesius of Spain, whose sons, say the legendary accounts, invaded and possessed themselves of Ireland a thousand years before Christ.

The races that occupied the land when the so-called Milesians came, chiefly the Firbolg and the Tuatha De Danann, were certainly not exterminated by the conquering Milesians. Those two peoples formed the basis of the future population, which was dominated and guided, and had its characteristics moulded, by the far less numerous but more powerful Milesian aristocracy and soldiery.
All three of these races, however, were different tribes of the great Celtic family, who, long ages before, had separated from the main stem, and in course of later centuries blended again into one tribe of Gaels - three derivatives of one stream, which, after winding their several ways across Europe from the East, in Ireland turbulently met, and after eddying, and surging tumultuously, finally blended in amity, and flowed onward in one great Gaelic stream.

ljc

Subject: RE: BS: PBS 'In Search of Ancient Ireland'
From: greg stephens
Date: 19 Jun 02 - 07:55 PM

Us Celts had a good run for our money from the 19th century, conquering all in the west with our bright new iron swords, moving out of our homeland in Austria, singing as we went, bodhrans in hand. But alas, with modern archaeology and linguistics we seem to be vanishing by the minute. We are turning into north-west europeans, or Atlantic culture people.And maybe we just invented our languages where we lived. Not before time.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS 'In Search of Ancient Ireland'
From: artbrooks
Date: 19 Jun 02 - 07:45 PM

Regrettably, it appears that the PBS station in Albuquerque has decided not to carry it. Bummer!

Subject: RE: BS: PBS 'In Search of Ancient Ireland'
From: The Pooka
Date: 19 Jun 02 - 06:26 PM

Reminder to all interested: Part II, tonight (Wed. June 19), PBS, 8 pm Eastern Time.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS 'In Search of Ancient Ireland'
From:
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 04:45 PM

Cool, Fibula! I studied anthropology at Indiana University myself. Didn't finish though, and I was very much into early man and not quite as much into the "modern" stuff!

Has anyone looked for evidence of habitation along the ancient coastline, that which is now a couple of hundred metres under the sea? They found evidence that people were boating to the Americas along the Siberia-Alaska route by dredging or doing cores on ancient islands and bringing up tools. I would bet that people did hang out in some spots even when Ireland was glaciated, but they'd have stuck mainly to the margins.

Wouldn't I love to talk to you! You're my kind of geek - and it takes one to know one!

tiaridh,

ciarili

Subject: RE: BS: PBS 'In Search of Ancient Ireland'
From: GUEST,Cu Chulainn from the North
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 11:18 AM

The story of how St.Patrick came to Ireland is pretty well known, he was kidnapped by Irish raiders, from that he got free and went back to Ireland bringing Christianity.

The Celtic way of life may well have been introduced to Ireland in the same manner.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS 'In Search of Ancient Ireland'
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 09:45 AM

Hiya uncle metal-detector. I have an e-mail to send to you - I hope me mammy gave me the right address! Did you have a good weekend away singing?
Yup, the archaeology stuff sticks in my head much longer than the computer stuff...

Subject: RE: BS: PBS 'In Search of Ancient Ireland'
From: GUEST,yum yum
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 09:22 AM

jeezas - fibula, do you keep all this information in yer head? You tell 'im girl. Uncle metal-detector is proud of ye!

Subject: RE: BS: PBS 'In Search of Ancient Ireland'
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 07:04 AM

ciarili - at a guess it was around 1159 BC, the time of the Hekla III eruption in Iceland. This could well have been what led to a dust cloud which covered the northern hemisphere and was recorded as far away as China.

By any chance, was the dendrochronolgist Mike Bailie (a palaeoecologist from Queen's University, Belfast)? Big on comet theories? He has us all panicking in a lecture one day when he talked about super volcanoes and the fact that if the whole of the earth is wrapped in a dust cloud, then there's only enough food to last something like 42 days if evenly distributed, as food production isn't possible under such conditions. He described the scenario in scary, vivid detail, and then finished by saying "now that's what they don't teach you about volcanoes in school".

As an aside, there is scant evidence to date for palaeolithic (old stone age) settlement of Ireland with the exception of a worked flint which was probably carried there by glaciation. The nice thing about archaeology, however, is that our view of the past is only temporary, and changes when new information comes to light.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS 'In Search of Ancient Ireland'
From: Mudlark
Date: 17 Jun 02 - 08:50 PM

I, too, found the dendrochronology aspect very interesting, with tie-ins around the world, and want to know more.

Lone voice, here, I'm sure, but I found most of the program a little dull, despite being half Irish and with a high interest in the subject at hand, and actually fell asleep toward the end (granted, it had been a long day and it aired here in CA at 11pm). I was also curious about all the references to circles, mounds, etc. as being religious in nature, w/o giving any real material to back up those claims. Makes me wonder what people 4K yrs from now will think of what's left of our culture, if not turned to dust by nuclear winter. I can hear them now, theorizing on the religious significance of the Eiffel Tower, Empire State Bldg, or the faces of the presidents carved on Mt. Rushmore, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS 'In Search of Ancient Ireland'
From: paddymac
Date: 17 Jun 02 - 08:15 PM

The Ceidie (sp?) Fields in northern County Mayo pretty well established that farming people of presumptively Indo-European origin were present in Ireland at least 5,000 years BP. Most evidence of Celtic arrivals looks to about 2,300 - 2,600 BP. Quarternary geology suggests that Ireland broke off from the continent about 48,000 BP.

If it is reasonable to assume that what today is called Ireland was populated before the Wurm Glaciation (ended about 10,00 years ago, but I don't recall when it began), the really interestin question would be whether those peoples survived the glaciation. Ireland was incompletely covered with its own glacier(s) and not by the mammoth continental glaciers. As I recal, the Dingle, Iveagh and Beare peninsulas in SE Ireland were not glaciated. Perhaps some additional southern coastal areas remained ice-free as well.

Perhaps more to the point, it borders on absurd to think that a small island easliy seen and reached by coastal sailing peoples wasn't visted and "seeded" frequently.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS 'In Search of Ancient Ireland'
From: Naemanson
Date: 17 Jun 02 - 05:59 PM

I don't believe there was a Celtic migration at all. There's ahardly any news of the Irish playing basketball...

Get it? giggle, snort, guffaw...

Subject: RE: BS: PBS 'In Search of Ancient Ireland'
From:
Date: 17 Jun 02 - 04:19 PM

I haven't watched it yet, but I taped it. I'm fascinated to read that bit about the dendrochronology! I'll have to get back to you guys when I hear what time span that was and do a little research. Did they mention any reason for this meteorological wackiness? A volcano, perhaps?

The last time a supervolcano popped off was 74,000 years ago. Incidentally, human beings experienced a genetic bottleneck right at that time, getting down to less than 10,000 people. Our resident supervolcano here in the US, Yellowstone, is showing suspicious signs of blowing its top, which gives me the screaming willies! No one in the world is prepared for the years of darkness and the devestation to plant and animal life. Imagine 5 years of no crops....

ciarili

Subject: RE: BS: PBS 'In Search of Ancient Ireland'
From: Pied Piper
Date: 17 Jun 02 - 01:45 PM

Guest "this is an international forum". Please use a name so we don't confuse you with the decent folks who Guest here. Might I suggest "Wanker". All the best PP

Subject: RE: BS: PBS 'In Search of Ancient Ireland'
From: CapriUni
Date: 17 Jun 02 - 11:16 AM

I caught the midnight repeat of it last night/this morning, and I was fascinated, especially the bit by the (What was the word -- Dendo-something-ist?) expert who figured out the weather of different years by looking at tree rings of fossilized trees. The idea of the sun not shining for 19 years sent shivers down my spine, and I live in an age of electric lights...

If that evidence of trees not growing for that long is interpreted correctly (and I have no reason to say it's not), I'm not surprised that people turned violent.

I was also heartened by the idea of Celtic language and culture spreading through ideas and trade, rather than through physical invasion. I've long believed that it's culture that matters, more than genetics.

I'm looking forward to part two, and maybe some more reasons for why those monks put together the stories that they did...

Subject: RE: BS: PBS 'In Search of Ancient Ireland'
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 17 Jun 02 - 09:46 AM

I think I mentioned this in a thread before, but the idea that people known as "the Celts" migrated to Ireland is by no means provable. What there is evidence for is a movement and spread of language, craft and culture - that doesn't necessarily mean an influx of people.

History/archaeology is political, and The Pooka is correct in mentioning the Celtic Revival being promoted for reasons of political identity. Indeed, does that matter? My own thinking is that the social uses of archaeology today are as interesting as the actual archaeology which tells us so much about society in the past.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS 'In Search of Ancient Ireland'
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Jun 02 - 12:16 AM

If you are going to malign me at least get it right. I said,

I don't know enough to comment on the veracity of it, but it did sound as though the theories might not go down well with a lot of folks.

But what the fuck do I know...
kat

Subject: RE: BS: PBS 'In Search of Ancient Ireland'
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 02 - 10:08 PM

I would also add, re: the Celts bullshit being bandied about here, that Irish schools also teach that the ancestries of the earliest settlers in Ireland are unknown. It is also taught that the date of the earliest Celtic settlements are contested by both historians and archaeologists, but are believed to be in the transitional period between the Bronze and Iron Ages, but that they were definitely present in Ireland by 1500 BCE.

Why that shouldn't "go down well with a lot of folks" is utterly beyond me.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS 'In Search of Ancient Ireland'
From: The Pooka
Date: 16 Jun 02 - 10:01 PM

Thanks Guest! Great. On the first PBS program they had folks playing some replicas of the Bronze Age horns. Remarkable. (Tin whistles, they weren't. :)

Subject: RE: BS: PBS 'In Search of Ancient Ireland'
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 02 - 09:51 PM

People interested in this subject might like a look at this website, the Irish archaeology site on prehistoric music in Ireland:

http://homepage.eircom.net/~bronzeagehorns/prehistoric/bronze/music.html

Subject: RE: BS: PBS 'In Search of Ancient Ireland'
From: The Pooka
Date: 16 Jun 02 - 09:34 PM

Whoa! So it's on tonight in Maine?! Cool, Captain. Enjoy, indeed. And, congrats & best wishes as you rebound from them danged treatments.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS 'In Search of Ancient Ireland'
From: kendall
Date: 16 Jun 02 - 08:57 PM

I'm watching it now. Being a sucker for anything historical, I enjoy this very much.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS 'In Search of Ancient Ireland'
From: The Pooka
Date: 16 Jun 02 - 01:01 PM

Goodness gracious. Guest, let us not snipe, OK? No need.

The program airs on PBS at 8pm U.S. Eastern Time Wednesdays June 12, 19, and 26.

The June 12 episode started WAAAY back, long before the Vikings & Normans. We talkin' Neolithic, then Bronze, ages here. (Yes, I remember them well...:) One aspect, if I got it right, was that archaeological evidence indicates the displacement of earlier peoples (the legendary Tuatha de Danaan? Firbolg?) was not largely by Celts from Europe; and that during the centuries of Celtic in-migration, Celts still remained a minority in the overall population. It was also, briefly and gently, suggested that the concept of a Celtic Nation was a 19th-century doctrine promulgated & promoted for nationalist/political reasons.

I have no problem with that btw. Sadly but truly, all nations *need* their mythologies. The Celtic Revival movement was an important step toward Irish nationhood. So what if it's not fully historically accurate or complete? Mythologies never are. Up Cu Chulainn anyway! (There was great footage of costumed paraders acting out scenes from the Tain, btw.)

I just think the series is very interesting. (Oh--full disclosure--it has corporate sponsorship from Tourism Ireland. Hey--why not?:) Here's the blurb from the website's main page (blue clickie in first posting above):

"Ancient Ireland is the land of Celtic mysticism, mythical heroes, shamrocks, and St. Patrick. But what is truth and what is legend?

"To find out, IN SEARCH OF ANCIENT IRELAND journeys across the centuries to explore fabled Erin's remarkable past and uncover the real story behind the island nation's rich global legacy.

"This Web companion reveals the truth behind many of Ireland's myths and examines the enduring impact the country has had on Western civilization."

Subject: RE: BS: PBS 'In Search of Ancient Ireland'
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 16 Jun 02 - 12:12 PM

Or I could ask the folks here, as I like to dialogue with them. I like to hear what they have to say, and sometimes something as simple as asking a shtoopid question that I could easily find the answer to elsewhere sparks an entirely delightful conversation. Sometimes it makes for still more information on the persons *experience* of the subject so that I can get to know the individual in all their uniqueness and character as well as the thing they are talking about, and not just learn that a cool show is happening on PBS, and the times it might be playing in certain USA timezones.

I like all that, myself. It's why I am here to begin with.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS 'In Search of Ancient Ireland'
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 02 - 11:26 AM

Or you could look it up in your local listings.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS 'In Search of Ancient Ireland'
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 16 Jun 02 - 11:14 AM

Actually, as the originator of this thread *specifically* listed "USA", I would say that assuming that I mean times here in the States is implied. If I can get a time (to include an EST, CST, MST, or PST, I can most likely figure it out from there. Which is why I asked.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS 'In Search of Ancient Ireland'
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 02 - 11:03 AM

Celtic Soul, this is an international forum. You didn't post where you reside, and also seem to be presuming that people here would know the local time for your station to air the program.

I think this is one of those instances where it is appropriate for you to check your local listings, wherever you are.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS 'In Search of Ancient Ireland'
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 16 Jun 02 - 10:46 AM

Sounds cool! What time is it being aired?

Subject: RE: BS: PBS 'In Search of Ancient Ireland'
From: artbrooks
Date: 16 Jun 02 - 10:42 AM

I missed it, since I normally ignore the TV, but I'll try to catch the second episode. It sounds interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS 'In Search of Ancient Ireland'
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 02 - 10:36 AM

Might not go down well with what folks? Irish folks?

Let me give you a heads up people. It isn't the Irish who promulgated use of the word "Celtic". It is a term that is never used in Ireland by the Irish to describe themselves or their ancestors. Irish people are well aware of the Viking and Norman history of the island, as well as the Celtic. It is taught to every one of them in school.

So who, katlaughing, are you suggesting will this knowledge "not go down well with"? You say it will be true of "alot of folks"--just who will these hordes of folks be?

Subject: RE: BS: PBS 'In Search of Ancient Ireland'
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Jun 02 - 02:01 AM

I missed the last half. What I saw in the beginning of it, I enjoyed. I don't know enough to comment on the veracity of it, but it did sound as though the theories might not go down well with a lot of folks.