BS: World Cup: USA v. Mexico

Subject: World Cup: USA v. Mexico
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 17 Jun 02 - 04:41 AM

If you haven't seen the game yet, STOP reading now!

What an amazing game! Two picture-perfect goals, tenacious and far from passive defense, magical goalkeeping by Friedel, and an edge-of-the-seat finish. And yes, we lucked out when the referee must have sneezed and missed a hand ball in the penalty area...but it was not a lucky win. I imagine 'Spaw was part of the crowd at Columbus Crew stadium in the middle of the night, watching their hometown boy Brian McBride score another one. And good show to England and condolences to Ireland...that was a heartbreaker.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: World Cup: USA v. Mexico
From: GUEST,Jim Jones
Date: 17 Jun 02 - 04:58 AM

Great stuff, USA!

You really deserved the win.

My predictions in the Who will win the World Cup? thread fall at the first hurdle... LOL

Looking forward to your Germany game

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: World Cup: USA v. Mexico
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 17 Jun 02 - 05:33 AM

Thanks, Jim. Now maybe in honor of the US's first ever quarterfinal appearance, someone will teach the ESPN commentator the words "goal line", "touch line", "penalty area", and "goal area", instead of "end line", "sideline", "18-yard box", and "6-yard box". Or am I being too pedantic?

Speaking of which, there seems to be a huge difference in style between American commentators, who tend to give a play-by-play description of every touch, a la hockey, and European (well, at least English) commentators, who let the match run and occasionally make a comment or two, that may or may not have to do with the present match. I'm not sure which I prefer, actually.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: World Cup: USA v. Mexico
From: GUEST,bradfordian
Date: 17 Jun 02 - 05:49 AM

Congrats USA, McBRIDE, DONOVAN, great stuff, now do the same to the krauts. bradfordian (at work)

Subject: RE: BS: World Cup: USA v. Mexico
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 17 Jun 02 - 05:51 AM

Well done the USA, it's nice to be able to support them as underdogs in something!

Obviously the names of the two US goal-scorers haven't gone unnoticed in a small island off the northwest of Europe. We're out now, but we had an enjoyable ride on the roller-coaster, and Mick McCarthy can close the Roy Keane chapter which was so out of keeping with the whole Irish squad spirit. I can now serenely share out my support among Spain (so that we can claim that only the champions beat us, and that only on penalties), the rising-star US, post-Northern-Ireland-peace-process-and-hooligan-supporter-free England, Belgium where I currently live and Senegal, the former colony which carries the hopes of Africa. Oh, and anybody else who just plays good football.

Mark, the British Guardian newspaper has picked up the US use of 'inappropriate terminology' in soccer commentaries and its on-line commentary (to be read from the bottom up) for people who can't watch the games live on TV covered today's game in a hilarious pastiche of this style.

The British style of commentary, apart from obvious national stereotypes, is probably appropriate for people who know the game inside out. The US style, corresponding to an equally obvious stereotype, is probably equally appropriate for a US viewership, particularly at this stage of development of the game in the US.

Subject: RE: BS: World Cup: USA v. Mexico
From: Gervase
Date: 17 Jun 02 - 06:18 AM

I thought it was aterrific game with some truly impressive play by McBride, Donovan, Friedel and Jones - and some truly dreadful fouls on Jones (Marquez didn't just deserve being red-carded - he should have been arrested for that flying kidney kick and head-butt). USA v Germany will be a game to watch!
What chance an England v USA final now?

Subject: RE: BS: World Cup: USA v. Mexico
From: Escamillo
Date: 17 Jun 02 - 06:55 AM

Congratulations to USA ! Soccer seems to have a great future in the US. At least I will know what you are doing, not as in baseball, where I can't understand what happens, everything is quiet, players only spit on the field, then suddenly there's a big fluttering and everybody leaves.

Un abrazo - Andrés (for whom a bat is an instrument for going banking)

Subject: RE: BS: World Cup: USA v. Mexico
From: GUEST,Ard Mhacha
Date: 17 Jun 02 - 07:06 AM

A great World Cup for the US they were brilliant against a Mexican team who were determinied to get their pound of flesh when they knew the game was up. The Mexican Captain should be thrown out of football, on all my years of watching the game his foul on Jones ranks with the worst I have ever seen. Just back from a walk and still laughing at a Protestant friends remark, he thought that the US had the best defender in the Cup, but remarked that he could never play for his team when he stated,"I can never imagine Glagow Rangers fans cheering a Pope". And in a half hour Brazil v Belgium, this World Cup has not seen the last of it`s many surprises. Look out Brazil. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: World Cup: USA v. Mexico
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jun 02 - 07:21 AM

Well, that's a turn-up for the books. And I was glad the game was won before the referee sent off one of the Mexicans, because that would have been used as a way of downgrading the victory.

The Mexicans were seen as likely finalists too, on the basis of the way they'd been playing till then. Now to do it all on Friday to Germany. It's strange to have the USA going along as the underdog - and that'll mean you'll have the crowd on your side.

I've noticed on soccer matches in America (they turn up occasionally on strange satellite channels at strange times) that the TV crew overing them sometimes seem to have a strange way of covering them, focussing pretty well all the time on individual players, which makes it completely impossible to make sense of what is going on; that would presumably be because the people controlling the broadcasts don't undersatnd the game too well themselves. I was wondering if that kind of thing is one reason why Americans tend not to like watching it on TV.

Donovan, McBride and O'Brien - the nearest thing to an Irish side still in the competition.

Subject: RE: BS: World Cup: USA v. Mexico
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Jun 02 - 07:55 AM

Great game! Not entirely unexpected though because the US team really believed they were going to win this one, that Mexico was "beatable" based on the past records between the two. I was worried because Mexico was playing better now than in the last few years....but it all came out well!!!!

Sorry Mark, I watch at home on ESPN. I have been tempted to go to the stadium but that would mean about no sleep at all.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: World Cup: USA v. Mexico
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Jun 02 - 09:24 AM

There were four passengers on a small plane, crossing the Atlantic. An Englishman, A Frenchman, A Texan, and a Mexican.
Following bad weather, the pilot's voice comes on the intercom to explain that the plane cannot complete the journey, and will be lost with 'all hands' unless some weight reduction is seen.
After jetisonning seats, tables, and any loose goods the plane gains height. But the pilot comes back on explaining that this is a temporary reprieve.
As the plane loses height, the Englishman steps to the door and says "My only regret is that I have but one life to give in the service of others. Rule Britannia!" and jumps out.
The plane again gains height, but 15 minutes later the pilot repeats his message of doom.
The Frenchman stands and says "I cannot see the Englishman being alone in his sacrifice, I too will jump, Vive La France! " and jumps out.
The plane again climbs, and the pilot says that they might now make it to safety, due to the decreased mass.
Unfortunately, as the plane approaches the coast, the pilot announces that, without a further reduction in weight they will crash into the White Cliffs of Dover.
At this, the Texan stands up, and moves to the door, He grabs the Mexican, and with a shout of "Remember The Alamo!" throws him from the plane.

Subject: RE: BS: World Cup: USA v. Mexico
From: ard mhacha
Date: 17 Jun 02 - 01:49 PM

McGrath, Did you see the game, Marquez the Mecican Captain was sent off for a foul on Jones which [have a look at Gervase`s note] which was of the GBH variety. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: World Cup: USA v. Mexico
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 05:19 AM

Kevin, I think you've hit it precisely. I noticed it especially during tonight's Japan-Turkey match. The ESPN commentator (I don't know his name, though he sounds a lot like Marv Albert) basically named each player who touched the ball, and described each individual move "A carries the ball up wide but it's tackled away by B who loses it to C." It's clearly a style that's based on the "play-by-play" of American football and baseball broadcasting. In their defense, they do make some comments about the general flow of the game and the strategy, but mostly it's "X steals the ball from Y and is called for the foul". I've gotten more and more annoyed with it as the tournament progresses.

It's too bad: this would be a perfect opportunity to teach us ignorant Yanks (and I include myself) some of the fine points of the game, including the laws, positional play, strategy and tactics, etc. They could have a message box that periodically appears at the bottom, maybe titled "IT'S THE LAW!" that would say something like: "The goalkeeper may not touch the ball with his hands if it's kicked to him by a teammate, but may if it's headed to him." Or review the offside law, or explain what's happening on a free kick or corner kick. More importantly, they could have a commentator who knows the game well, who could give an insightful analysis of what was going on that was aimed at people who know something about the game but are not experts. Oh, well, dream on....

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: World Cup: USA v. Mexico
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 05:36 AM

Yes, Ard Macha, he deserved to be sent off all right. My point was that I was glad that it happened right at the end - if it had happened earlier and the Mexicans had been playing ten men only, you can be sure there'd have people saying that they only lost because of that.

Explaining the finer points of the rules during play would be an uphill sruggle. Maybe a sort of tutorial during a pre-match discussion might be better - though with all these kids playing soccer I imagine that they'd be the main source of information. But having people running the show and doing the commentating who understood the game would be the main thing, and I can't see where there'd be any grat problem in finding them. for camera angles and so forth import them from Latin America. For commentators use retired players with thebngift of the gab.

Subject: RE: BS: World Cup: USA v. Mexico
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 05:48 AM

Mark: for a full breakdown of the offside law (which is confusing) see Laws of the game Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: World Cup: USA v. Mexico
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 05:49 AM

Sorry, lost a clicky, try again Laws of the game

Subject: RE: BS: World Cup: USA v. Mexico
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 07:25 AM

Nigel, That site would also be of benefit for some of the World Cup officals. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: World Cup: USA v. Mexico
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 08:42 AM

Thanks, Nigel. Actually I do know the offside law...I'm a referee! For the youth league (AYSO) to be sure, but the laws are the same. And I do think some of the World Cup A.R.'s should have read Law 11 before taking the field. Especially the part that says ...at the moment the ball touches or is played by one of his team... I can't count the number of flags that have gone up when they should have stayed down because the player moved into an offside position after the ball was played. I'll admit, though, that it's probably the most difficult call to make accurately, since the law requires you to look in two different directions at the same "moment". Our instructions as A.R.'s are explicit, and I think they came from FIFA: if you're not certain of the call, keep your flag down.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: World Cup: USA v. Mexico
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 08:58 AM

By the way, Nigel, that looks like an excellent site, and I plan to look through it more thoroughly at another time. It's aimed more at coaches than referees but has lots of good information. I did notice one slight error in an otherwise excellent discussion of offside: it says a player is not in an offside position "as long as there are two or more defenders between him and the goal." It should say "the goal line" -- otherwise the officials would have the even more impossible task of estimating the linear distance between each player and the goal itself!

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: World Cup: USA v. Mexico
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 09:12 AM

Mark, have you seen the "Soccer 101" section of the ESPN site. It's really kinda' neat......Scroll down on this page and look for the green section on the right labeled Soccer 101.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: World Cup: USA v. Mexico
From: JedMarum
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 09:48 AM

It was a great game. I thought the US played very well against a very good team. I don't understand the apparent personal animosity aimed at Coby Jones. The one nasty foul that got the Mexican player sent off was certainly ugly - but prior to that Jones had been the target of a couple of hard fouls that seemed to have no purpose except to hurt him. What was that all about? If it was just frustration, why take it out only on Jones?

I am not so concerned about the missed hand ball - it was almost incidental (it would have bounced off one of the heads if not the hand - and Freidel was right behind anyway). There was a missed foul or two, and gamesmanship fouls that were called - so one more didn't make much difference. Even if the call had been made a PK awarded, and the PK scored - the result would have been the same.

Subject: RE: BS: World Cup: USA v. Mexico
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 01:35 PM

I agree Jed, Jones was a target for some terrible tackles, this may have been a throwback to the qualifying games, when the US played Mexico. The US were cool and disiplined and deserving winners. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: World Cup: USA v. Mexico
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 11:18 PM

Yes, 'Spaw, that Soccer 101 feature is cute and fairly informative. Though there are some errors there as well. Seems like the people who put these together would have done well to have them proofread by someone who knows the game well. Just like it would be good to have a well-informed primary commentator on ESPN. Ah, well, it's all "For the Good of the Game"...And Jed, I completely agree with your analysis of the missed hand ball. I've actually been surprised at least once when a hand ball was called when the ball clearly ricocheted off a player's arm and he made no movement of the arm at all. The law says the foul is to be called when a player "intentionally plays the ball" with his hand or arm. But that's show business....

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: World Cup: USA v. Mexico
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Jun 02 - 04:20 AM

Mark: another point from that site is the statement that you cannot be ofside when receiving the ball dirctly from a free kick, goal kick or corner.
As a ref, does this mean that from a very long goal kick, a single player can take on the opposing goalie?
Also it seems unneccesary to mention a corner, as the ball is being kicked from an onside position, on the goal line. It would be impossible to be ofside and play the ball!

Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: World Cup: USA v. Mexico
From: JedMarum
Date: 19 Jun 02 - 09:21 AM

by the way - I don;t have cable now, so I haven't seen/heard their coverage (been watching the Spanish language stations) - but ESPN uses an excellent "color" guy for their broadcasts, from time-to-time named Glenn Davis. Glenn is a long time pro player (NASL) with some National experience. I've caught a few of the broadcasts he did for local TV when the Dallas Burn were playing out-of-town games. He's knowledgeable and laid back - but provides excellent analysis. Some of the guys they've matched him with on the broadcast team leave a bit to be desired, though.

Subject: RE: BS: World Cup: USA v. Mexico
From: JedMarum
Date: 19 Jun 02 - 09:32 AM

I know the hand ball call is supposed to be made based upon intent and advantage - but I've seen a lot of US college games and it seems to me it is almost always presumed intentional. Maybe that's wise (when in doubt presume it's intentional). But I saw one free kick (just outside the box) where the ball hit a player's hand which was covering his privates - and the ref ruled a hand ball. Seemed a poor call - no particular advantage was won, and the player was clearly standing with his hand over his crotch before the ball was kicked ... I think this was just a bad call. College officiating, on the whole was pretty good, though. As was the club soccer my son played in Dallas - High School, on the other hand was quite poor. Of course the club teams in North Texas are far better then the high school programs.

Subject: RE: BS: World Cup: USA v. Mexico
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 01:53 AM

Nigel: Yes, if a goal kick is long enough, you can receive the ball while standing all by your lonesome in front of the keeper, and not be called for offside. On a similar note, the laws were changed recently (it might have been with the major rewrite in 1997, or maybe later) to allow a goal to be scored directly from a kickoff. I don't know if it's ever been done in a major match since it became legal.

As for your corner kick question: On a corner kick, the ball is placed within the corner arc. Since the corner arc has a radius of 1 yard, the ball can be as much as a yard away from the goal line when the kick is taken. It is possible, then, for a player to be ahead of the ball at the moment it is played by his teammate (the one taking the corner kick). But he won't be called offside, even if he's past the second-to-last defender. Now here's a tricky bit that we're taught to watch for: if a "short" corner kick is played, and the ball is quickly passed back to the one who originally took the corner, he can be called for offside, if he's still closer to the goal line than the ball and the second-to-last defender!

And I agree with Jed--many officials don't understand the letter or the spirit of the law regarding hand balls. Just to be sure, I looked up Law 12, and it's very succinct in its description of the foul: handles the ball deliberately (except for the goalkeeper within his own penalty area). If "the ball plays the hand", no foul should be called.

Aloha,
Mark