Is this man killing folk music?

Subject: Is this man killing folk music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 Jun 02 - 02:10 PM

The headline news of the BBC Radio 2 Folk and Acoustic website.

Is this man killing folk music?... br>

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio2/folk/news/index.shtml

For more details, comment and information, click on the following thread.

/thread.cfm?threadid=48650

Subject: RE: Is this man killing folk music?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 19 Jun 02 - 02:12 PM

We can hope eh...

What was it Billy Conolly said once...

"If I had a hammer?? Ha... If I had a hammer, there'd be no more feckin' folk-singers!"

;-)

Subject: RE: Is this man killing folk music?
From: AliUK
Date: 19 Jun 02 - 02:21 PM

Thank God I live in Brazil...here there´s no such thing as a PEL. There´re numbers of bars where people just drop by, set up your guitar and away you go. This Labour governmebnt is full of fucking jerks. ( Sorry for the bad language.)

Subject: RE: Is this man killing folk music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 Jun 02 - 03:12 PM

Will it be such a good place for you to be, come Friday's result? Which ever way it goes........

Subject: RE: Is this man killing folk music?
From: GUEST,Just Amy
Date: 19 Jun 02 - 04:50 PM

I live in Los Angeles but I just sent several questions to Mike Harding as per the blue clicky above. Everyone should send questions.

Subject: RE: Is this man killing folk music?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jun 02 - 06:13 PM

The entire idea of one man being able to 'kill' folk music is ridiculous.

It'll be around long after all of us are dead

Subject: RE: Is this man killing folk music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 Jun 02 - 07:41 PM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/entertainment/music/newsid_1694000/1694054.stm

Not new this link, but it does show that one man can give folk music a jolly good kicking.

Subject: RE: Is this man killing folk music?
From: Percustard
Date: 19 Jun 02 - 08:02 PM

Probably best to see this sort of comment as wake up call to me!

Subject: RE: Is this man killing folk music?
From: AliUK
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 09:46 AM

Shambles:
I have already received death threats from my neighbours if England win...but I just point out to them that there are roughly 200,000 brazilians living ileagally in London who will cheer for Brazil, whilst I am amongst a select few who are living here legally and I damn well cheer for who I want ( taking the appropriate imperialistc tone)...that's when the normally start throwing stones at me.

Subject: RE: Is this man killing folk music?
From: GUEST,maryrrf
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 02:48 PM

He may not manage to kill folk music but he sounds like a nasty mean spirited man. I don't get what the problem is with having sessions in a pub if the pub owner and guests agree and enjoy. I can see having to have an entertainment license or something of the sort if you have paid performers up on a stage, but a group of friends gathering together to make music and share some songs? Good lord, where's the harm in that? He's really doing a disservice to England, as is anybody who insists on these rules.

Subject: RE: Is this man killing folk music?
From: GUEST,yum yum
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 02:59 PM

Sure if he kills folk music, we can always start an under-ground movement.

Subject: RE: Is this man killing folk music?
From: GUEST,maryrrf
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 03:23 PM

Well, that might be just what folk music needs. Then we'd be rebels with a cause. Outlawed, and you can only here us sing and play at illegal gatherings in remote pubs - all instruments have to be hidden away if the cops show up. (I live in the US, by the way, and there aren't any sessions here in Richmond for miles around, that I know of).

Subject: RE: Is this man killing folk music?
From: Melani
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 03:33 PM

Sounds like the guy has a bad case of Foot-In-Mouth. Every time I start to think that the British government has gotten civilized since the American Revolution, they do something to remind me why we rebelled in the first place. Good luck to you guys.

Subject: RE: Is this man killing folk music?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 05:14 PM

But the trouble is it's not the singers and musicians who are under threat here, it is the people who run the establishments where we might be welcome to play, they are the ones who face the fines.

No it's not nasty and mean-spirited - it's unflexible, unimaginative and arrogant. Which is probably even harder to deal with.

To sum up the situation (since though we've been yammering on about it for months, mostly the indefatigable Shambles, I'm sure there are lots of people who still might be unclear about what is involved here):

What's happened here is that there is a stupid and badly thought out law is in existence in England and Wales, and has been for some years. If it was enforced it would virtually wipe out informal music making.

In practice it has been largely ignored, which is what tends to happen with many stupid and badly thought out laws in this country, rather than abolishing them. The law has given rise to injustice in a number of cases, and it is possible that this is happening more frequently in recent times (though it may just be that we are more aware of it because of improved communications, such as the Internet.)

Now it is proposed to reform the law. However, because the people who have been lumbered with the job of drafting the new legislation know bugger all about it, and the people they have been consulting on it have their own agenda (which does not take account of our way of making music,it is likely that the new law will be quite a bit worse, by abolishing a loophole (the two-in-a-bar exemption).

Our best hope that by making a fuss we can get the legislators - the MPs - to bring about amendments which will sort things out properly. Letters from people in England and Wales to their MPs might help nag them into paying some attention. There are probably other things we could do as well.

And letters from people outside the UK to tourist boards and so forth are also very badly needed, because the people in charge really care about that stuff, and about the idea that tourists are going to go elsewhere instead. So please please tell them that that is what you are thinking of doing.

(Mind, you can get a legal drink here when you are 18 - the repressiveness isn't just on one side of the ocean, Melani.)

Subject: RE: Is this man killing folk music?
From: songsearch
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 06:58 PM

There is a hidden agenda here. By requiring the licencing rules to be administered by the local authority instead of the magistrates as they are at the moment they can charge the publicans for overseeing the licence application. The sky is the limit!

Subject: RE: Is this man killing folk music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 07:50 PM

Yes indeed. The level of the liquor licence fee is very low (like £30 for three years). Some of the locally set PELs are very high, the lowest £150 per year. Some of the higher charging local authorities are very much higher, receiving vast amounts from PEL revenue.

By combining PELs and liquor into the premises licence and setting (and increasing) the level centrally, all this revenue is going direct to the treasury.

I would not mind this too much if all premises paying this fee, could provide small-scale music making, but this is to be optional, the exact nature of the music having to be specified well in advance if the licencee requires this.

These premises will have to be further inspected and approval or conditions obtained from the local authority. the main reason why only 5% of liquor licensed premises have taken up the current PEL.

The resulting (first) higher charge and increased control is unlikely to be good news to conventional entertainment, and a disaster for participatory folk events, in the smaller establishments.

http://www.culture.gov.uk/new_responsibilities/liclaw.html. For the details The White Paper.

Subject: RE: Is this man killing folk music?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 08:08 PM

And is there any infotmatyion at all about the situation as regards places, such as coffee bars, which don't have or wish a liquor licence but might be willing to have a bit of music from time to time? How much are they expected to pay?

Everything I have seen about this from official sources completely ignores this aspect. And this is in what is allegedly a multi-cultural society, where there are, for example, sizable Muslim communities with musical traditions of their own who do not in general see pubs as as their kind of places.

Subject: RE: Is this man killing folk music?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 08:48 PM

So where does the "killing folk music" bit come in?

I'm a little confused. This appears to be about playing in bars.

Subject: RE: Is this man killing folk music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Jun 02 - 02:14 AM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio2/folk/