BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jun 02 - 07:35 PM

I don't know McGrath. I still hold to the idea that we are all human beings. Even the GUESTS. That's how I choose to treat them, anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jun 02 - 07:27 PM

No point in arguing with a shadow. No point in even reading what a shadow writes on a wall.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jun 02 - 05:44 PM

I don't know what would make you think I support al Qaeda. I thought we were discussing Israelis and Palestinians.

You don't hurt me with your hate, GUEST. You only hurt yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jun 02 - 05:38 PM

Here Carol. Your friends are calling you. Run along now.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jun 02 - 05:18 PM

Why so much hate, GUEST? What do you hope to accomplish with that? Who and what do you think you are serving with that? Clearly you don't know or understand anything about me if you would project those kinds of motives onto me. I think you are just using me as a mirror of yourself. You are projecting your own hate onto me and seeing it reflected back to you. But it's not my hate you're seeing. It is your own.

You won't be able to move forward as long as you are projecting your stuff onto other people. You can't fight your demons by trying to make me into one of them. These are not my demons. They are yours.

And chasing me off of an internet forum, or inciting hatred against me, or even making me feel bad, will not free you of your demons. Because they live within you. You can't run away from them, and you can't assign them to someone else. They are yours. You have to do the work of letting them go yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jun 02 - 04:56 PM

No it is people like you and your revisionist theories of lies masquerading as truth, that are in denial. I guess 6 million wasn't enough for you and that defending ones sovereign territory consititutes terrorism. You've got it all so ass backwards it boggles the mind. You'd make an excellent recruite for Al Quada. You obviously have a very bendable, impressionable and corruptable mind.

I guess when the next attack happens on our soil, you'll consider the FBI, CIA, Homeland Security, Police and Firefighters' collective responses - terrorists as well - by your definitions.

Subject: RE: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jun 02 - 04:33 PM

I'm sorry you feel that way GUEST. I don't know why you and so many other people want to make this about me though. Are you so afraid of dialogue and of having your position challenged that you need to silence and/or demonize everyone who disagrees with you?

That kind of thing suggests to me a profound fear of the truth. People who aren't trying to hide from something can handle disagreement.

You would probably say that dissent costs the lives of Israelis. And I would answer that it is a lack of dissent that is costing Israeli lives, and Palestinians lives as well.

But ultimately, we all will have to take responsibility for the decisions we make. I'm prepared to take responsibility for mine.

Subject: RE: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jun 02 - 04:20 PM

Carol,
I'll gladly pay your air fare to Gaza or the West Bank, if it gets you the hell off of this forum. I'll even provide the final videographer for your taped deposition, and provide coordinates to a nice crowded area of civilians where you can detonate yourself and take a few Israelis with you. (Sounds like the type of contribution you'd like to make if only you could. Let me help you.)

You are a disgrace as an American and a human being. You naivete is laughable if only it weren't so pathetic. You disgust me and many other members of this forum.

Subject: RE: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jun 02 - 03:51 PM

katlaughing, I don't know if you've been paying attention or not, but I'm not the one who is instigating this stuff. What I am doing is trying to get clear of it.

And I find this coming from you to be rather ironic to say the least...

Go do something musical!

Subject: RE: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Jun 02 - 03:15 PM

Neither one of you are helping the Mudcat, either, Carol.

Subject: RE: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST,Phoebe
Date: 23 Jun 02 - 02:19 PM

Uri Avnery

15.9.01

THE DAY BARAK'S BUBBLE BURST

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Lengthy copy-paste article deleted. Click to find this article
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST,kiki
Date: 23 Jun 02 - 01:39 PM

Alone Among My Peers at My Yeshiva University High School Reunion
by Ronald Bleier

The following article, my political autobiography, explaining how I changed from a Zionist to an anti-Zionist, was printed (with minor changes) in the Nov. '92 edition of The Washington Report on Middle East Affairs under their "Seeing the Light" column.

In the spring of 1990 I was one of some forty men and a handful of spouses who attended the 30th reunion of the 75-man graduation class of Yeshiva University High School of Brooklyn.

---

Lengthy copy-paste article deleted. Click to find this article.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST,Barbara
Date: 23 Jun 02 - 01:21 PM

The often used "fact", that the Jews simply came and took the land away from the poor Palestinians is a red herring. It is simply not true.

There has always been a significant presence of Jews in the Middle East. Including, and especially around Jerusalem. And until the Jews decided to formally re-settle Israel, there were very few Arabs in that part of the Middle East, other than in Jerusalem. But; as Jews developed the land, Arabs immigrated to this area in large numbers. Finally there was work.

Another facetious "fact", is one of borders. Until the Europeans and Americans "imposed" borders in the Middle East, just after the Second World War; there were none. Present-day Middle Eastern countries with definable borders such as: Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia and others, were created.

And before the Europeans and Americans decided to carve up the Middle East, these were regions mostly ruled by Sheiks, war lords and the such.

As a matter of "fact", the original King of Jordan, King Abdullah, was an Arabian who was handed Trans Jordan by the British for his past service to the Crown. In "fact", the vast majority of the people living within Jordan (70%) are Palestinian, while the ruling minority are Hashemite.

So why don't we hear the Palestinians demanding Jordan as their state? Another "fact": they did. In September of 1970, Yasser Arafat and his PLO attempted to overthrow the Jordanian government. And for his troubles, Arafat was exiled from Jordan along with tens of thousands of other Palestinians. At least the ones which were not massacred by the Jordanians.

As a result of the attempted coup by Arafat, Syria became involved as an opportunist. The final body count after all the fighting was done, included: 5,000 Jordanians, 2,000 PLO and 3,000 Syrians. In all, more than 10,000 people lost their lives due to Yasser Arafat.

And from Jordan, Arafat and his Syrian buddies did the same thing to the Lebanese. But this time, with far more dire consequences. It took Israeli troops to get them out, finally driving Arafat into exile away from the Middle East. The Israelis would have done him in at that point. But like always, the world community saved his sorry ass.

This is a "fact" Arafat and the rest of the world seem to prefer to forget. This failed coup led to the formation of one of the most vicious terrorist groups ever. Black September; responsible for multiple airplane highjackings, assassinations, and the 1972 Munich Olympic slaughter of Israeli athletes.

The "Balfour Declaration" also guaranteed Jews, through the British Parliament in 1917, a State with recognizable borders. Here is the letter sent to Lord Rothschild from Lord Balfour confirming this:

Foreign Office November 2nd, 1917 Dear Lord Rothschild,

I have much pleasure in conveying to you, on behalf of His Majesty's Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet.

His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation.

Yours sincerely,

Arthur James Balfour

It must be noted as a matter of history, that not only did the British not fulfill their promise, they in fact did whatever they could to renege. And more than that, they put in place all form of roadblocks to the realization of the Zionist dream.

From 1901, more than a century past, the JNF (Jewish National Fund) purchased virtually all the land that is currently pre 1967 Israel. At that time, the land was useless rock, dust and weeds. Once developed however, the land became quite valuable.

With this new reality, some of the Arabs who sold, were infuriated and felt cheated. But not all Arabs sold. And as a result, there are more than 1 million Israeli Arabs who prosper with the same rights enjoyed by Israeli Jews.

For those who chose to sell. Tough luck. For those who deserted their land at the behest of the Arab League in 1948, to languish in Arab refugee camps of their own making. Tough luck.

Imagine selling a dilapidated home to your neighbor, believing that its only value is in firewood; when all of a sudden, your neighbor transforms it into a magnificent property by investing an enormous amount of time, effort and money. How would you feel? Well that's how the Arabs feel. But unlike you, they want it back.

For those who suggest that the Jews do not belong in Israel, specifically in Jerusalem and the West Bank, try this on for size as a Christian.

If that argument is right, then Christ was a fraud, the bible is a fantasy and Christianity is a hoax.

Christ lived in and around the city of Jerusalem, some 600 years before the advent of Islam. However; Christ was NOT a Christian, since Christianity followed in his footsteps. Christ was a Jew, and not just any Jew. He was a practicing Rabbi.

As a matter of "fact", Leonardo Da Vinci's painting of the Last Supper, was a depiction of Christ and his Apostles at a Passover Seder, just before Judas' treachery did him in. This was about 2,000 years ago.

Prior to Christ; King Herod constructed the Second Temple upon which the Islamic Dome Of The Rock, and the Al Aqsa Mosque were built more than 600 and 700 years later; respectfully. This is at least 600 years AFTER the Romans destroyed the Second Temple in 70 AD.

Prior to King Herod's Second Temple; the First Temple was built by King Solomon, son of King David in 1000 BC. That is 3,000 years ago. And prior to that, King David, the Jews' first King, made his capital in Hebron, which is part of the West Bank, and will be part of the "eventual" Palestinian State.

Therefore; the argument that Jews have no historical right to the "Holy Land" is both false and specious. Jews have been in the Middle East, specifically in and around Jerusalem far longer than the Christians and the Moslems combined. Three times longer.

As another matter of fact, in keeping with the concept that the group who has the longest continuos history in the land is the legitimate occupant, at least according to the UN when this comparison is convenient, the Moslems come in third after the Christians, and well after the Jews.

But that is not what this argument is all about. As an Atheist, albeit a Jewish Atheist, I find the significance of this history fascinating, not on a religious basis, but more-so on a basis which reflects the movement of world history. What happened in Israel (Middle East) during and before this period, has had an enormous impact on how we live our lives today, thousands of miles away in the 21st century.

Back to reality, and away from religious significance. The Jews were there for almost 6,000 years. They have a right to be there now. The Palestinians have been there for about 50 years; solely as a result of European and American tampering.

I kid you not. The Palestinians, are more or less a creation of the politically correct. In essence, Palestinians are Arabs, the same as the Jordanians, Syrians and Lebanese. But these Arabs want to convince the world that their national credibility exists in history. But in reality, this "history" is nothing more than smoke and mirrors.

There never was a country of Palestine, nor a Palestinian people. At least not before Europe and the USA created one.

After Roman Emperor Titus Flavius Sabinus Vespasianus destroyed the Second Temple in 70 AD, and had his Roman Legion crush the Jewish Zealots at Masada, he named the REGION Philistine, in honor of the Jew's most hated enemy, the Philistines. Remember little David and the giant Goliath? This is the REGION which the world has condensed into the territory we presently refer to as Palestine.

Ask yourself this question. Who was the last king, emperor, president, prime minister, governor; or any leader of PALESTINE before Yasser Arafat? Biblical or current? And if you can not answer; then how can there be Palestinians, and how can Palestine claim to have been stolen by the Jews?

Israel is an unbelievably successful Western Style Democracy that pisses off all the failed tyrannies in the Middle East. The success of the Israelis also seems to bother anti-Semitic Europe as well. It's not as if European anti-Semitism started with Adolf Hitler and died in his bunker.

The fact that so many European countries, including the USA, are so dependent for their energy and enormous wealth earned from the vast amounts of oil in the Middle East, is by and large the reason the world shows so much sympathy to an entire people they would otherwise never care less about.

After-all, the Middle East is the antithesis to everything the West has strived to become, in terms of multi-culturalism, modernity and democracy; where the rights of the individual are considered to be sacrosanct; especially in the USA.

Ehud Barak, Israel's Prime Minister prior to Ariel Sharon, offered Arafat the deal of a lifetime in terms of settling the debate over Palestine, and not only did Arafat turn it down, he never even attempted to make a counter offer. Arafat and the Palestinians, including the rest of the Arab "street", do not want a deal with Israel. They just don't want Israel.

As far as I am concerned, Israel should continue to build its massive security wall, keep the Palestinians out of Israel proper, and leave the Palestinian problem for the Arabs to work out. And if the Palestinians still want to continue murdering Jews, then let the Jews respond with all due prejudice.

And if the Palestinian Arabs finally decide to join the civilized and democratized 21st century, they will find no better friend and ally than Israel. The choice is; and has always been theirs.

Subject: RE: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jun 02 - 11:53 AM

Ok, Warren. If you say so.

Subject: RE: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST,Warren Webber
Date: 23 Jun 02 - 11:49 AM

In Part 112, CarolC was responsible for 26/68 posts or almost 37%.

So far in Part 114, CarolC has made 50% of the posts.

BTW CarolC, I don't know why you think my statistical observations have anything to do with "doing any favors for Israel."

I have not made any personal attacks on you. I have merely pointed out easily verifiable Mudcat statistics.

Subject: RE: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jun 02 - 11:39 AM

And I'll make a deal with you, kat. I won't tell you what to do, and you don't tell me what to do. Deal?

Subject: RE: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jun 02 - 11:37 AM

katlaughing, you're not helping.

Subject: RE: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Jun 02 - 11:35 AM

Why don't you both stop! Go do something musical!

Subject: RE: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jun 02 - 11:33 AM

Good morning Warren. How are you today? Are we going to have an attack campaign on CarolC now? I don't think you're doing Israel any favors with this sort of thing. Kind of makes them look bad by association, if you know what I mean. At least if you were speaking for me, I think I would probably ask you to stop. But it's up to you.

Subject: Who are the Terrorists? Part 114
From: GUEST,Warren Webber
Date: 23 Jun 02 - 11:10 AM

Part 113 is up to 110 posts. Time for part 114.

In part 113, 32/110 or more than 29%, are from one person: CarolC.

Warren Webber in Milwaukee