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Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???

DigiTrad:
DIRTY OLD TOWN


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In Mudcat MIDIs:
Dirty Old Town


Mrrzy 15 Oct 19 - 01:41 PM
GUEST,Ian 15 Oct 19 - 01:07 PM
GUEST,Jack Campin 15 Oct 19 - 09:25 AM
Vincent Jones 15 Oct 19 - 08:21 AM
GUEST,Some bloke 20 Mar 19 - 02:31 PM
FreddyHeadey 20 Mar 19 - 02:12 PM
GUEST,Polly 22 Oct 18 - 07:27 AM
GUEST,Polly 22 Oct 18 - 07:26 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Oct 18 - 06:43 AM
Dave the Gnome 22 Oct 18 - 03:38 AM
Joe_F 21 Oct 18 - 10:01 PM
meself 21 Oct 18 - 09:32 PM
Big Al Whittle 21 Oct 18 - 09:29 PM
GUEST,Polly 21 Oct 18 - 08:13 PM
ollaimh 28 Mar 13 - 07:43 PM
Dave the Gnome 28 Mar 13 - 02:11 PM
Weasel 28 Mar 13 - 12:28 PM
MGM·Lion 28 Mar 13 - 09:41 AM
Doug Chadwick 28 Mar 13 - 09:31 AM
Doug Chadwick 28 Mar 13 - 09:16 AM
GUEST 28 Mar 13 - 09:06 AM
MGM·Lion 28 Mar 13 - 08:43 AM
MGM·Lion 28 Mar 13 - 07:34 AM
MGM·Lion 28 Mar 13 - 07:26 AM
Doug Chadwick 28 Mar 13 - 05:39 AM
janemick 28 Mar 13 - 04:20 AM
MGM·Lion 28 Mar 13 - 03:45 AM
Leadfingers 27 Mar 13 - 09:38 PM
Tattie Bogle 27 Mar 13 - 08:36 PM
MGM·Lion 27 Mar 13 - 06:51 PM
MGM·Lion 27 Mar 13 - 06:47 PM
Uncle Tone 27 Mar 13 - 05:58 PM
MGM·Lion 27 Mar 13 - 05:09 PM
Uncle Tone 27 Mar 13 - 05:00 PM
MGM·Lion 27 Mar 13 - 04:24 PM
MGM·Lion 27 Mar 13 - 04:00 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Mar 13 - 03:59 PM
MGM·Lion 27 Mar 13 - 03:53 PM
GUEST 27 Mar 13 - 03:01 PM
MGM·Lion 27 Mar 13 - 01:35 PM
GUEST 27 Mar 13 - 12:53 PM
MGM·Lion 27 Mar 13 - 12:00 PM
MGM·Lion 27 Mar 13 - 11:55 AM
John Routledge 27 Mar 13 - 11:11 AM
C Stuart Cook 27 Mar 13 - 09:54 AM
Les in Chorlton 27 Mar 13 - 06:13 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Mar 13 - 05:05 AM
GUEST 27 Mar 13 - 04:39 AM
MGM·Lion 27 Mar 13 - 04:05 AM
GUEST 27 Mar 13 - 03:48 AM
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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 01:41 PM

This and Old Triangle, oh and the cobblrr, were the only Clancy Brothers songs eorth getting up off the couch to skip on vinyl.

There is great imagery in this song but it's ugly, urban imagery. Not images I enjoy. I like pretty.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: GUEST,Ian
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 01:07 PM

Jack, having heard An Alarc'h on a regular basis as a Bretton dance tune I think it is more akin to the scots song Twa Corbies.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 09:25 AM

In Morlaix I heard a Breton shanty whose tune was very close to Dirty Old Town - maybe that's why it's popular in Brittany. Wish I could remember its name.

Come to think of it, the Breton historical ballad "An Alarc'h" (The Swan) does use a similar tune, at least similar in overall contour.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: Vincent Jones
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 08:21 AM

Heyup, this is one of the most interesting threads I've ever read, and there are some pretty good 'uns on Mudcat's pages. I was just doing a search for 'Salford' as I'm still recovering from being at Salford's solid (but sadly unsuccessful) performance in the rugby league Grand Final. But I ended up reading nearly 18 years of thread.

So now I'm here there's few things I'd like to add:

'Dirty Old Town' gets played at Salford's home matches. A few years ago we'd hear a great version by The Dirges, not at all folky but definitely the sort of tune to get you in the mood for rugby league. You ought to give that one a listen, if you're interested.

Jonathan Kelly has a song called 'Rainy Town', which unsurprisingly made me think it's about Manchester, but as he's a Drogheda lad I think it probably isn't. Nevertheless, I tried writing an extra verse about Manchester after that little tit blew himself up at the Ariane Grande concert (I won't inflict it on you, I'm no MacColl-Miller/Kelly- Ledingham/Dylan-Zimmerman), so I can hardly object to anyone thinking of 'Dirty Old Town' as being about their town. Similarly with the dark satanic mills of 'Jerusalem': I thought these may be about factories in the north of England, but I understand that Blake was thinking of the mills of Shepton Mallet.

My missus, a theatre academic, was quite possibly the last person to whom Joan Littlewood gave an interview; Littlewood expressed a great fondness for her time in Salford (during which she was married to MacColl).

In Morlaix I heard a Breton shanty whose tune was very close to Dirty Old Town - maybe that's why it's popular in Brittany. Wish I could remember its name.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: GUEST,Some bloke
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 02:31 PM

Just scanned through some of the early posts here.

I suppose many are comparing a complete song with music that forms part of a narrative in a larger experience.

It was MacColl’s lyrics in theatre workshop productions such as Landscape with Chimneys (1949) that made him of interest to Charles Parker when he wanted songs to carry on the narrative in interviews, capturing the themes. Hence the BBC Radio Ballads.

How do you tell a long term folkie from a Johnny Come Lately getting words off the Internet?

The Oirish lyrics that come up in Internet searches mix the middle verses around as per Pogues.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 02:12 PM

"Just what folk song does Ewan McColl's "Dirty Old Town" sound like?"
Ewan adapted the tune from Isla Cameron's 'Waters of Tyne' - the two were working together on the play the song was written for when it was composed
MacColl's technique was to choose a tune and spend hours humming it through, making changes until he was satisfied with it.

Jim Carroll. thread.cfm?threadid=165660&page=19#3983129


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: GUEST,Polly
Date: 22 Oct 18 - 07:27 AM

Sorry make that Shirley Collins.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: GUEST,Polly
Date: 22 Oct 18 - 07:26 AM

Goodness me. People are still listening :)
I can't help thinking that Clinton knew exactly what he was doing. He picked up a stick and prodded a sleeping dragon. It may have produced a bit of fire and brimstone but a lot of interesting reminiscences too.
Ewan MacColl remains a great hero of mine and Dirty OT a favourite despite it being (so I'm reliably informed) sung at Man. U games. I still like to sing "croft" and "Salford Wind".
I love hearing everyone's take on the folk scene back then and about the men and women who wrote and sang these lovely songs. Out of interest does anyone else share my love of Sirley Collins' version of "Foggy foggy dew"?
Pints all round,
Polly


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Oct 18 - 06:43 AM

I've just been listening to (and very much enjoying) the Alan Lomax recordings - now fully accessible on line)
Most interesting for me personally were the 1950s recordings of Ewan (and occasionally his first wife, Joan Littlewood and his mother, Betsy)
THey are full of information on Ewan when he was more of a 'Salford Lad' than he was later and they certainly give the lie to many of the myths that have sprung up about him
Lomax's contribution to our understanding of Irish and Scots is also well worth a listen
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Oct 18 - 03:38 AM

I enjoyed re-reading it too. It was like meeting an old friend :-)


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: Joe_F
Date: 21 Oct 18 - 10:01 PM

Thank you for reviving this thread, which I had not been aware of. The proportion of good manners in it is astonishing.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: meself
Date: 21 Oct 18 - 09:32 PM

Somehow never saw this thread before now ....

And to go back to its origin: the person that started it lived, and perhaps still does live, in Windsor, Ontario - perhaps he didn't spend his formative years there, and perhaps he lived out in the (rich) suburbs, but the idea of anyone in Windsor not getting this song is bewildering to me. I grew up there, about three blocks from the Chrysler plant, and even though we didn't have canals and crofts, when I first heard Dirty Old Town, I knew immediately what it was all about, and the images it evoked were from my own memory. What I find particularly ironic, is that the pub this person apparently played in regularly - the Kildare House - was right across the street from a foundry that was a vision of hell, in my younger days. We had to pass it walking to and from high school - behind a rusted chain-link fence, there were partial
walls and roofs of old sheet metal, big industrial ovens and boilers; heat, grit and smoke drifted out, and we could see dark, scowling men working, their sweaty bodies gleaming from the flames around them. Once in a while, a passing student would receive a burn from an airborne cinder. Like the warnings of some fire-and-brimstone preacher, it seemed to be there as a threat of what awaited if we didn't stay in school ....

All of which is to say, I suppose, that the OP's perception of Dirty Old Town says much more about him than about it.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Oct 18 - 09:29 PM

enjoyed hearing all those voices Mike GM and Scrump.

Jim as always in fine irascible form.

its almost a work of art really.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: GUEST,Polly
Date: 21 Oct 18 - 08:13 PM

This is amazing, a thread that was started in 2002! I think Clinton did a huge favour to fans of this song and its writer. It's given many people the opportunity to chew the fat and relive their youths, to talk about folk songs, music, plays and history.
Long live the art of discussion and folk music everywhere??
After 3 years ( last posting 2013) I wonder if anyone is still listening?


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: ollaimh
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 07:43 PM

maybe it was origionally dirty old clown, and really about a certain folk musician


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 02:11 PM

He sent you the wrong way! From the cathedral the best chippy is next to the tattoo parlour and charity shop...

:D


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: Weasel
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 12:28 PM

I was playing in Salford Cathedral this morning.   The Bishop gave the congregation directions to the refreshments - "Past the bookies' and turn left at the abandoned car opposite the burnt out pub."

Ah, Salford!


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 09:41 AM

I take your point, Doug. But these are recognised, standard abbreviations, generally accepted for online discourse; so I don't think it unreasonable to expect the meaning to be known clearly to anyone using an online forum I would suggest that they are, once learnt, convenient communication-enhancers. All language is conventional, after all. As well object to the use of a word you might not know, rather than taking the obvious recourse of consulting a dictionary so that you will recognise it next time.

Thank you for affording me that 'typo' get-out!

LoL

~M~


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 09:31 AM

"A typographical error (often shortened to typo) …………... The term includes errors due to mechanical failure or slips of the hand or finger…"

… acknowledge a mistake [NOT a 'typo'] in above and the post it refs to. Can't imagine why I put FYO, when it should have been FYI …



As 'O' is next to 'I' on a qwerty keyboard, a slip of the finger is easily done so it probably was a 'typo'.


DC


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 09:16 AM

Standard abbrevs which I am sure could be found by googling if at a loss

Yes, I could look them up on Google – but why should I have to. It should be on the part of the writer, not the reader, to make communication clear and unambiguous.

DC


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 09:06 AM

@janemick

I guess the ultimate comment on the songs origins are here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Wj7xZf8xm8

Tone


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 08:43 AM

http://www.webopedia.com/quick_ref/textmessageabbreviations.asp#M

is a useful online guide to such standard web abbreviations. Many, such as lol ['laugh out loud' or 'lots of love'], btw ['by the way'], 2MI ['too much information'] have got out and become mainstream, so you will find journos using them in features and expecting to be understood. They can, iirc ['if I remember correctly'] and SFAICS ['so far as I can see'] be typed in upper or lower case.

HTH ['hope this helps']

~M~


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 07:34 AM

Sorry ~~ acknowledge a mistake [NOT a 'typo'] in above and the post it refs to. Can't imagine why I put FYO, when it should have been FYI = For your information.

Profound apologies* for culpable and erroneous carelessness.

~M~

*How about some of the same from u-no-hoo for his repeated 'McColl'? In my dreams, I much fear! Actually, on recollection I think he did offer such; but in tones of profound irony, IIRC [= If I remember correctly!] Most of these abbreviations can be found on Mudcat html, I think, can't they?


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 07:26 AM

TYFYI [= Thank you for your inquiry], Doug Chadwick
.,,.

MYOB meanwhile, …………………………………………: it is, FYmuch•neededO,
.,,.
Standard abbrevs which I am sure could be found by googling if at a loss

MYOB = Mind your own business

FYO = For your information

as I rendered this above = For your much-needed information.

Hope all now clear

~M~


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 05:39 AM

As I said earlier, way up in this thread, I don't have any problem with the meaning of the song. What I do have a problem understanding is:

MYOB meanwhile, …………………………………………: it is, FYmuch•neededO, ……………………..

I really have tried to work it out but I give up. What does it mean in English please, Michael?


DC


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: janemick
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 04:20 AM

Dirty old town as sea song in Brittany:

MtheGM - I have no idea why they think this is a sea song, but I agree with Jim I, it is a great favourite with our breton friends.

Tattie Bogle's idea about the ship canal is all I can think of (nice predictive text!)

However, if you want to please an audience of Bretons, sing this song!


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 03:45 AM

Tattie & Leadfgrs ~~ do you really expect me voluntarily to accept abusive anonymous private correspondence & respond rationally to it? Would you? Don't be silly.

Regards

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: Leadfingers
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 09:38 PM

I have always maintained that IF you want a slanging match with another member , do it by PM and DONT foul up another thread !


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 08:36 PM

A real thread-killer, all this personal animosity: why don't you just PM each other your insults or arrange pistols at dawn somewhere?
Ewan would be turning in his grave.

Trish Santer


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 06:51 PM

But perhaps a more apposite Peanuts quote ~~~ Marcie to Peppermint Patty ~~

You're weird, Sir...


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 06:47 PM

OK. Right. Fine ~~ do what you like ~~ go & sulk namelessly in your corner ~~ exercise your rights and entitlements. But remember with what pejorative tone & accusatory animus you denounced me for posting "anonymously" at 0301 PM. Another instance of your ignorance; coupled, it now appears with an astonishing degree of sauce4goose hypocrisy on your part. My, what a piece of work you are, to be sure, Mr Whoever-you-are. "Be aware of what personal information you decide to share within the forum" is it now? Why, what a deadly secret you must be hiding. Not Lord Lucan, are you? Or one of the still-to-be-caught-up-with Nazi war criminals? Or Prince Harry having a giggle, maybe?

I feel like Lucy van Pelt draped over Schroeder's piano ~~ "You fascinate me!"

Well just an itsy-bitsy bit.

~M~


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 05:58 PM

Anonymity and Guest Posting are permitted.

You are free to be anything you want EXCEPT unkind, impolite, argumentative, snooty, or either FOR or AGAINST that of-what-we-do-not-speak.

Be aware of what personal information you decide to share within the forum.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 05:09 PM

Well, now you know. Sorry for your disappointment. I'm nearly 81, but not particularly bitter that I am aware of. Just have always run on the watchword, then & now, that "accuracy matters"; and can you really not see that you were repetitiously inaccurate, & then tried evasive tactics to try & fudge the fact ~ 'typo' forsooth!.

Now, come clean. Who are you, hiding under cloak of anonymity? Who is 'canal wheeler' then? and why?

Tone Tone Tone ~~ OUT OUT OUT!

~M~


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 05:00 PM

@ Jim Quote: "Mike Grosvenor Myer - columnist from way back to various folk magazines, notably 'Folk Review'"

Is that who he is? I'm quite shocked. I had a lot of respect for him, until I read his posts here. He's obviously now a very bitter old man, but I can understand why.

Tone


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 04:24 PM

As for my non-achievement 'in real terms'. Well, far be it from me... but as you have brought up the subject.. Thanks, Jim, for starting the ball rolling. Also Theatre & Folk critic for The Guardian for over quarter-century; Book critic, esp Folk, for The Times... &c &c &c.

You obviously think of yourself as some sort of 'achiever', Tone. So let's hear it, eh. What your claims to fame 'in real terms'?

Come on ~~ don't be shy.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 04:00 PM

And it isn't a matter of "different views", you fool. I don't give a piggipoo for your opinion of anything; but to try to pass off a piece of unmannerly repetitious misspelling of someone's name as a 'typo' is a piece of disgusting ignorant evasive deceit of which you should be thoroughly ashamed; but I am sure you won't be, because you have the shamelessness on the little, 76" tall or not. No need to 'try to belittle' you; you manage to do a grand job of that all by your little self.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 03:59 PM

Mike Grosvenor Myer - columnist from way back to various folk magazines, notably 'Folk Review'
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 03:53 PM

What do you mean, anonymously? My identity is known to pretty well everybody on this forum; but who Tone the Canal Wheeler [whatever that is supposed to mean] may be is an entire mystery.

~Michael Grosvenor Myer~


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 03:01 PM

Y'know. I feel very sorry for you. To go to such extremes, anonymously, to try to belittle another poster who holds different views to you, shows huge inadequacy in every other aspect of life. You are obviously a non-achiever in real terms, so "plonk". You're gone.

Tone


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 01:35 PM

"if you're going into personal attack mode you've run out of logical argument".
.,,.
A facile and pathetic argument, typical of a figuratively little mind whatever the actual dimensions of the body in which it happens to be housed, which would only carry any conviction if the argument had not been further developed, which it was [or was it too much effort for him to read further?]. This was merely in response to the impertinent injunction to 'get a life', the extent to which I choose to conform with which is a matter for my judgment, not that of any impudent interloper who appears to think that an above-average stature affords him some right of interfering in others' existential options.

The argument was then developed by demonstrating, with the aid of an authoritative reference source, that it is a gross, deceitful, evasive misnomer to call an unmannerly and ignorant mistake a 'typo', which word applies to another sort of inadvertent error entirely.

~M~


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 12:53 PM

@ MtheGM Quote: "impertinent little man". Well, if you're going into personal attack mode you've run out of logical argument. But eyeball to eyeball, unless you are over 6ft 4ins, you'll be looking up to me, literally!

@Jim. Quote: "It wasn't his 'stage name' - he had it changed by deed-poll"

Agreed. That piece was probably written by a cub BBC online reporter who knows nothing about folk song. I only gave the reference out of interest, just to keep the thread boiling, as it were. It's been fun.

Tone


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 12:00 PM

To help in your efforts, note following from wikipedia

"A typographical error (often shortened to typo) is a mistake made in the typing process (such as spelling) of printed material... The term includes errors due to mechanical failure or slips of the hand or finger, but excludes errors of ignorance, such as spelling errors.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 11:55 AM

"Oh, my profuse apology for a typo*. Get a life! Tone"
.,,.
I'll get as much life as I like when I choose, you impertinent little man.   MYOB meanwhile, & try to learn what a '*typo' actually is, ignoramus: it is, FYmuch·neededO, not at all the same thing as a repeated impolite error.


~M~


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: John Routledge
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 11:11 AM

Thanks Stuart - If your last paragraph had been the first post there would have been little debate :0)


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: C Stuart Cook
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 09:54 AM

I think all forums have a distinct pattern, whatever the subject.

Innocent/genuine comment or question
Some honest answers or comments
Someone takes exception or pontificates.
Someone defends or defines with a degree of knowledge.
Others who sit around waiting for an explotable situation wade in.
Others continue to try to keep the conversation sensible.
Final flattening off as tit for tat becomes tedious.

I always find Jim's replies interesting and informative whether in answer to someone, defending the truth or in exasperation and annoyance.

I made my own contribution in respect of attempting to shed light on a period that seems a bit grey in the overall history of the song. I firmly beleive in a cycle of life of about 5 or 6 years. That always seems to me when I look back on my own life, that over that period of time things tend to change and develop. By the time the 5 years have gone I'm on a diferent path and direction. Between the end of the war and say an arbitrary date of 1956 (tow cycles), when the Folk side of things really kicked in, for at least a part of it Ewan (by now) lived in a place vastly different from the town of Salford that he is more usually associated with. He was living almost on top of the artists Harry Rutherford and L S Lowry, in open countryside at the centre of one of the most important historical areas of the early, water powered Industrial Revolution.

Politically he was on top of the area that contributed more than most to the Chartist Movement, the early ancestor of the socialist movement.The fields of Peterloo were poulated by the inhabitants of the surrounding towns. His father by this time was in Stockport just a short distance away.He could see Kinder Scout to the south and Bleaklow's "frozen sea" to the east. Then, as now, the skies were populated by Skylarks and Lapwings.

You might have guessed I'm passionate about this bit of a hill. I simply cannot imagine that Ewan didn't live here without it being an essential part of everything he became, wrote and sang.

To the original posters who wondered what Dirty Old Town was about, you need to stand on Werneth Low and look about you and on the mighty towns that made up the North West of England, that powered the Indutrial Revolution and subsequently the world. You'll understand it all then(and a lot more).


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 06:13 AM

Apparantley their are songs called folk songs. Some are very old and some are not. No clear definition seems to have been agreed by a maojority of the people who either sing or enjoy them.

At the end of the 19C lots of old songs of a particular kind were collected by song collectors and many were published. They are often called folk or traditional songs. This is now known as the first folk revival.

From the 1950s onwards a second revival began. More collecting occured and songs were learned from the books of the first revival.People wrote songs aswell. Thousands and thousands of folks clubs operated in the next whatever years. Thousands and thousands of people sang played and went to folk clubs.

Ewan MacColl with Peggy Seeger contibuted massively to that process. I would be hard pushed to list people who contrubuted more.

Why people bother to post on this global website to comment on the personality etc. of EMc is beyond me.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 05:05 AM

Your BBC link is headed 'Ewan MacColl' - the Miller bit indicates his birth given name (Christian name wouldn't have applied to Ewan).
It wasn't his 'stage name' - he had it changed by deed-poll, the reasons for him doing so had nothing to do with his being a performer - all covered in Harker's book.
MacColl can be called Robert Zimmermann if anybody takes it into their head to do so, though why anybody should is beyond me.
My objection is that his name change and the constant drawing of attention to it is a diversion; a deliberate attempt to somehow belittle his work and his ideas and to suggest that - how did you put it - he was "not what he claimed to be", or "faking it for effect" (thank you for those two excellent examples, by the way).
It is a rather nasty device used by performers throughout the folk scene against a fellow artist for 'cutting somebody down to size'. It may happen in other fields of art, though I've never come across it elsewhere, not to this extent and certainly not thirty years after their death - do people really still feel that threatened by the man?
As I said earlier, it acts as a barrier against discussing the work we did with the Critics Group, maybe of no consequence - we'll never know until we examine it with others.
After the break-up of the Critics, Pat and I approached Ewan and asked would he be prepared to be interviewed on his ideas on singing; he agreed and over a period of six months we filled twenty tapes of opinions and ideas of him talking on traditional songs and ballads, singing techniques, politics and song, making new songs.... magic!
I've now reached an age that I realise they will end up on an archive shelf somewhere for future generations to make use of (if they are still singing folk songs). That fact is down to garbage heaps such as this one - sad.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 04:39 AM

Oh, my profuse apology for a typo. Get a life!

Tone


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 04:05 AM

I fear you might have missed the point, Tony my duckling, that you rendered MacColl as McColl ~~ which was careless and rude. You are the one being silly.

If you didn't, then I have no idea what you are on about whatsoever; but please don't trouble to expound.

~M~


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 03:48 AM

Don't be silly.

Tell that to the BBC:

James Henry Miller (25 January 1915 – 22 October 1989), better known by his stage name Ewan MacColl,

Jimmie Miller

Tone


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