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Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? (MacColl)

DigiTrad:
DIRTY OLD TOWN


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In Mudcat MIDIs:
Dirty Old Town


Dave the Gnome 06 Feb 23 - 11:18 AM
meself 06 Feb 23 - 11:12 AM
Dave the Gnome 06 Feb 23 - 02:59 AM
meself 05 Feb 23 - 07:33 PM
GUEST,Master McGrath 05 Feb 23 - 06:49 PM
Stanron 05 Feb 23 - 06:22 PM
Dave the Gnome 05 Feb 23 - 05:19 PM
meself 05 Feb 23 - 03:13 PM
Dave the Gnome 05 Feb 23 - 02:11 PM
Dave the Gnome 05 Feb 23 - 02:03 PM
Dave the Gnome 05 Feb 23 - 01:58 PM
meself 05 Feb 23 - 01:51 PM
Dave the Gnome 05 Feb 23 - 12:50 PM
GUEST,Master McGrath 05 Feb 23 - 12:49 PM
Dave the Gnome 05 Feb 23 - 12:48 PM
meself 05 Feb 23 - 12:12 PM
GUEST, Sunny Jim 05 Feb 23 - 11:39 AM
Dave the Gnome 05 Feb 23 - 09:05 AM
MaJoC the Filk 05 Feb 23 - 08:29 AM
Dave the Gnome 05 Feb 23 - 05:33 AM
Dave the Gnome 05 Feb 23 - 05:31 AM
GUEST,Robin Charlton 05 Feb 23 - 05:03 AM
Dave the Gnome 05 Feb 23 - 04:55 AM
Bonzo3legs 05 Feb 23 - 04:39 AM
GUEST,Robin Charlton 05 Feb 23 - 04:28 AM
Dave the Gnome 05 Feb 23 - 04:09 AM
meself 04 Feb 23 - 06:21 PM
Dave the Gnome 04 Feb 23 - 06:20 PM
meself 04 Feb 23 - 05:57 PM
GUEST,Beckenham and Penge 04 Feb 23 - 04:11 PM
Dave the Gnome 04 Feb 23 - 03:18 PM
meself 04 Feb 23 - 12:47 PM
Brock 04 Feb 23 - 12:29 PM
Mrrzy 15 Oct 19 - 01:41 PM
GUEST,Ian 15 Oct 19 - 01:07 PM
GUEST,Jack Campin 15 Oct 19 - 09:25 AM
Vincent Jones 15 Oct 19 - 08:21 AM
GUEST,Some bloke 20 Mar 19 - 02:31 PM
FreddyHeadey 20 Mar 19 - 02:12 PM
GUEST,Polly 22 Oct 18 - 07:27 AM
GUEST,Polly 22 Oct 18 - 07:26 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Oct 18 - 06:43 AM
Dave the Gnome 22 Oct 18 - 03:38 AM
Joe_F 21 Oct 18 - 10:01 PM
meself 21 Oct 18 - 09:32 PM
Big Al Whittle 21 Oct 18 - 09:29 PM
GUEST,Polly 21 Oct 18 - 08:13 PM
ollaimh 28 Mar 13 - 07:43 PM
Dave the Gnome 28 Mar 13 - 02:11 PM
Weasel 28 Mar 13 - 12:28 PM
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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? (MacColl)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Feb 23 - 11:18 AM

I'm sure they would, meself. I am also sure that they would tell you that prostitutes don't take time off on the dark winter nights.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? (MacColl)
From: meself
Date: 06 Feb 23 - 11:12 AM

If you were to take the phrase "a girl in the streets at night" out of the song, and ask a random selection of people over a certain age what the implication is, five'll get you ten that most would say, in so many words, 'prostitution'. This has been a conceit as long as there have been cities. I can't believe that someone with the poetic sense of EM would not have been conscious of what he was suggesting.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? (MacColl)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Feb 23 - 02:59 AM

Ding dong merrily on high is really about mutual masturbation while on drugs :-D


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? (MacColl)
From: meself
Date: 05 Feb 23 - 07:33 PM

Stanron: It's a 'personal interpretation' in the sense that I didn't get it from someone else, yes. I happen to think it's a reasonable interpretation - you don't, I take it, which is your prerogative, of course.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? (MacColl)
From: GUEST,Master McGrath
Date: 05 Feb 23 - 06:49 PM

Was not the song written quickly?
Just because Ewan was a member of the Communist party at the time, it does not necessarily follow that the song or the phrase was an attack on Capitalism.
Songs can be interpreted in different ways by different people
Dylan is a prime example of a songwriter whose songs are on occasions deliberately Enigmatic, example.. Farewell Angelina or Quinn the Eskimo.
And his fans are often looking for a deeper meaning.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? (MacColl)
From: Stanron
Date: 05 Feb 23 - 06:22 PM

Hi meself

It's either a personal interpretation or a wind up. A personal interpretation is OK. As to a wind up, as long as it is a left wing wind up, that's OK too.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? (MacColl)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Feb 23 - 05:19 PM

Like I have said before. Feel free to stick to your interpretation. No skin off my nose.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? (MacColl)
From: meself
Date: 05 Feb 23 - 03:13 PM

"He wants to put an axe to the corruption of capitalism." And you find the idea of a streetwalker being associated with spring inconsistent with the idea of "the corruption of capitalism"? Unless the dirty old town itself is an emblematic product of the capitalism he wants to destroy, the song doesn't make much sense.

It's not a matter of what I "believe" - it's a matter of interpretation: I prefer my interpretation because it's more consistent with the tenor of the lyrics and, as I take it, the meaning of the song, being decidedly more biting than a bit of nostalgia concerning girls out taking the air. Is it so utterly unrealistic in relation to Salford that EM never would have intended that interpretation? Obviously, you would hold that that is the case, and I've never been to Salford - although I did grown up in another dirty old town ....

I suppose it's possible that EM wrote the first three verses as pure nostalgia, and then, uncomfortable with that, tacked on an attack on capitalism to redeem himself, but I would like to think of it as a more cohesive work.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? (MacColl)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Feb 23 - 02:11 PM

BTW I was born and bred in Salford and lived there for 60 years before I moved to the countryside. Dirty Old Town was the first song I performed in public at the age of 14. We studied it at school. I have known and sung it most of my life. I am still active in the Dirty Old Town Facebook group that tried to save the gasworks. I would never class myself as an expert on it but I do believe I know it better than most.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? (MacColl)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Feb 23 - 02:03 PM

"When the third verse arrives, the mood shifts: “I’m going to make a good sharp axe/ Shining steel, tempered in the fire/ We’ll chop you down/ Like an old dead tree.” The axe represented the Communist Party. The dirty old town was capitalism, which the singer wanted felled.'

That makes sense because MacColl was an active Communist

"prostitutes who would start appearing the streets when weather permitted" does not make sense because prostitutes needed money regardless of the weather.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? (MacColl)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Feb 23 - 01:58 PM

Read the analysis meself


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? (MacColl)
From: meself
Date: 05 Feb 23 - 01:51 PM

"He wants to put an axe to the corruption of capitalism." So he doesn't want to put an axe to the 'dirty old town'; that last verse has no connection with the rest of the song or the refrain (need I remind you: "I'll chop you down, like an old dead tree,/Dirty Old Town, Dirty Old Town")?


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? (MacColl)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Feb 23 - 12:50 PM

Correct. Written very quickly too.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? (MacColl)
From: GUEST,Master McGrath
Date: 05 Feb 23 - 12:49 PM

A friend of his told me the song was written for a scene change and
the line in question is simply a poetic image.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? (MacColl)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Feb 23 - 12:48 PM

He wants to put an axe to the corruption of capitalism. The town was dirty with soot and grime, not what you have in mind. Besides, I have been to Salford docks on a dark winters night and I can assure you that the prostitutes there did not take any winter holidays.

But, honestly, feel free to continue believing that they did.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? (MacColl)
From: meself
Date: 05 Feb 23 - 12:12 PM

DtheG: There's nothing about the line in question in there. You may be right about it, but I don't see how the delights of seeing innocent girls in the evening streets is consistent with all the dark satanic imagery of a 'dirty old town' that the speaker wants to put to the axe.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? (MacColl)
From: GUEST, Sunny Jim
Date: 05 Feb 23 - 11:39 AM

What a fine songwriter he was, and how the UK revival could do with his leadership now.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? (MacColl)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Feb 23 - 09:05 AM

In case you cannot get at the FT site - Here is the article in full

In 1949, Salford was the smoky heartland of England’s industrial north, not the shiny modern metropolis it is today (the BBC and ITV are located canalside, as are many other glossy media companies). Its pollution levels may have dropped even more dramatically since Covid-19 quietened its thoroughfares, but Ewan MacColl’s “Dirty Old Town” wasn’t just about the smog of his hometown. It was also about the romance of working-class life, and the desperation to escape it.

One of British folk music’s central figures, MacColl was born James Henry Miller in Broughton, a suburb of Salford, in 1915. His parents were socialists, and their son threw himself into communism in his youth (MI5 had a file on him when he was only 17).

Initially a street singer, MacColl married pioneering theatre director Joan Littlewood in 1934. Some of his most famous songs were written to bridge scenes in plays: these include “The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face” (written for a show that Peggy Seeger was planning in Los Angeles) as well as “Dirty Old Town”. The latter was written to fill a few minutes during a particularly awkward set change in one of MacColl’s own dramatic works, 1949’s “Landscape With Chimneys”.

The song begins tenderly, although Salford’s imposing features loom over it: “I found my love on the gasworks croft/ Dreamed a dream by the old canal/ I kissed my girl by the factory wall.” It also conjures up a certain cinematic charge: a train sets “the night on fire”, a siren blares from the docks. Spring is also smelled “on the Salford wind”, although MacColl later changed “Salford” to “smoky” at the request of the local council (some bands retain the original lyrics today).

When the third verse arrives, the mood shifts: “I’m going to make a good sharp axe/ Shining steel, tempered in the fire/ We’ll chop you down/ Like an old dead tree.” The axe represented the Communist Party. The dirty old town was capitalism, which the singer wanted felled.

Originally released as a single in 1952, the song bubbled through the burgeoning folk club scene, which often attracted leftwing firebrands. Folklorist Alan Lomax recorded another version in 1956, with MacColl singing it alongside Shirley Collins and his soon-to-be third wife, Peggy Seeger. By the early 1960s it was becoming a standard internationally, thanks to its rousing tune and air of romance. Beautiful early versions include those by early Bob Dylan associate, the American/Puerto Rican folk singer Jackie Washington, and Israeli singer Esther Ofarim, who also recorded versions in French and German. It was included on British folk-pop duo Chad & Jeremy’s debut album, Yesterday’s Gone, which was a hit in the British invasion of the US, and on Rod Stewart’s debut solo LP.

The Dubliners’ huge hit version in Ireland in 1968 forever connected the song to that country, however. The Pogues also recorded it for their 1985 album Rum, Sodomy and the Lash, and the song became so closely associated with the band that it later became the title of their greatest hits album. (The Pogues’ biggest hit, “Fairytale of New York”, featured the voice of Ewan MacColl’s daughter, Kirsty.)

“Dirty Old Town” remains a popular song on football terraces, a tradition that was ignited by Simple Minds’ 2004 version of the song featuring Celtic FC soccer legend Jimmy Johnstone (in their version it’s Johnstone, not a train, who sets the night on fire). In 2018, Liverpool fans also changed its words to celebrate the signing of the club’s new Dutch defender, Virgil Van Dijk (“He can pass the ball/Calm as you like”).

Nevertheless, the song remains closely connected to Salford, especially just across the canal at Manchester United FC.

In 2005, it was chosen as a song for Old Trafford’s capacity crowd of 68,000 to sing, as an attempt to break a world record. (The Guinness team sadly pulled out, saying that it would be impossible to monitor if everyone was taking part; nevertheless, the Manchester Evening News reported that the noise “raised the roof”.)

There was even a campaign to save MacColl’s gasworks croft from demolition in 2017, although it was finally knocked down in 2019. This was not, as MacColl may have hoped, because capitalism had been destroyed. Times have changed in other ways since 1949. Nevertheless, one senses that the smoky whiff of “Dirty Old Town” will linger on in Salford.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? (MacColl)
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 05 Feb 23 - 08:29 AM

MaJoC's €0.02: I agree with DtG, with one slight addition: You can tell it's spring in [slum town of choice] when pretty lasses are a-bloom in pretty dresses. Confusion about this is mainly fallout from poetic compression.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? (MacColl)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Feb 23 - 05:33 AM

Yosn is local dialect for town :-) Use proper English in your search


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? (MacColl)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Feb 23 - 05:31 AM

Indeed Robin. Occam's razor suggests that the simplest of explanations is the most likely. Given that Salford in the 1940s and 50s was a dark, dirty place (I was born there in the early 50s and remember "Hanky Park" well), seeing a girl on the streets would indicate lighter nights. Prostitutes would be seen at the docks, and some other places, in all seasons at all times of day and night.

Meself, please feel free to think what you will. I really am not arguing.

Here is an interesting analysis from an unusual source. It may take you to a subscribe page. If it does, Google Financial Times Dirty Old Yosn


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? (MacColl)
From: GUEST,Robin Charlton
Date: 05 Feb 23 - 05:03 AM

I think the most likely explanation is that Spring is a time when people go outside a little more at night, he possibly used the word girl to fit the meter of the song, but I would not be didactic about it.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? (MacColl)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Feb 23 - 04:55 AM

Yep, it's true, Bonzo. I don't have to work to make ends meet so I have lots of leisure time to do with as I will. Unlike you. I wouldn't say I know it all but I do know considerably more than some :-)


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? (MacColl)
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Feb 23 - 04:39 AM

Dave the gnome has got nothing to do but be irritating, argue, and know it all.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? (MacColl)
From: GUEST,Robin Charlton
Date: 05 Feb 23 - 04:28 AM

I met and knew both of them. I do not know the answer to the question. You appear to be arguing.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? (MacColl)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Feb 23 - 04:09 AM

I never got to meet Ewan but I have met with both Peggy and Calum. No need to ask about husband or dad bringing prostitution into Dirty Old Town though because he obviously didn't. I am not arguing. Just explaining that you are wrong.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? (MacColl)
From: meself
Date: 04 Feb 23 - 06:21 PM

So ... had a chat with Ewan on the subject?


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? (MacColl)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Feb 23 - 06:20 PM

I do!


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? (MacColl)
From: meself
Date: 04 Feb 23 - 05:57 PM

'but that ain't one of 'em.' You say that with some confidence ... ?


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? (MacColl)
From: GUEST,Beckenham and Penge
Date: 04 Feb 23 - 04:11 PM

How about contqcting Peggy Seeger?


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? (MacColl)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Feb 23 - 03:18 PM

Sorry myself but that interpretation is yours alone! Springs a girl in the street at night has multiple meanings but that ain't one of 'em.

Brock - the jazzy/bluesy version with a quiet snare beat and a clarinet done by Ewan and Peggy is one of my favourites


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: meself
Date: 04 Feb 23 - 12:47 PM

I always took "Spring's a girl in the streets at night" to refer to prostitutes who would start appearing the streets when weather permitted, an indication of the corruption of the 'dirty old town'. I know, I'm a real romantic ....


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: Brock
Date: 04 Feb 23 - 12:29 PM

I've just read through this whole thread -and learnt so much -as I'm fairly new to folk.
I'm going to do this at our Folk Club having learnt it from the jazzy/bluesy version. I like to try and understand what I'm singing. (I have nothing 'industrial' in my background) I agree with the theory that both mentions of 'spring' are the season of the year; 'smelled the spring on the smoky wind' being ironic and 'Spring's a girl..' meaning there may not be the sweet smell of blossom in the town but there is still your sweetheart to meet 'in the street at night'. And if I'm wrong -well no one will know -except you mudcatters!

Cheers
Paul B


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 01:41 PM

This and Old Triangle, oh and the cobblrr, were the only Clancy Brothers songs eorth getting up off the couch to skip on vinyl.

There is great imagery in this song but it's ugly, urban imagery. Not images I enjoy. I like pretty.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: GUEST,Ian
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 01:07 PM

Jack, having heard An Alarc'h on a regular basis as a Bretton dance tune I think it is more akin to the scots song Twa Corbies.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 09:25 AM

In Morlaix I heard a Breton shanty whose tune was very close to Dirty Old Town - maybe that's why it's popular in Brittany. Wish I could remember its name.

Come to think of it, the Breton historical ballad "An Alarc'h" (The Swan) does use a similar tune, at least similar in overall contour.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: Vincent Jones
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 08:21 AM

Heyup, this is one of the most interesting threads I've ever read, and there are some pretty good 'uns on Mudcat's pages. I was just doing a search for 'Salford' as I'm still recovering from being at Salford's solid (but sadly unsuccessful) performance in the rugby league Grand Final. But I ended up reading nearly 18 years of thread.

So now I'm here there's few things I'd like to add:

'Dirty Old Town' gets played at Salford's home matches. A few years ago we'd hear a great version by The Dirges, not at all folky but definitely the sort of tune to get you in the mood for rugby league. You ought to give that one a listen, if you're interested.

Jonathan Kelly has a song called 'Rainy Town', which unsurprisingly made me think it's about Manchester, but as he's a Drogheda lad I think it probably isn't. Nevertheless, I tried writing an extra verse about Manchester after that little tit blew himself up at the Ariane Grande concert (I won't inflict it on you, I'm no MacColl-Miller/Kelly- Ledingham/Dylan-Zimmerman), so I can hardly object to anyone thinking of 'Dirty Old Town' as being about their town. Similarly with the dark satanic mills of 'Jerusalem': I thought these may be about factories in the north of England, but I understand that Blake was thinking of the mills of Shepton Mallet.

My missus, a theatre academic, was quite possibly the last person to whom Joan Littlewood gave an interview; Littlewood expressed a great fondness for her time in Salford (during which she was married to MacColl).

In Morlaix I heard a Breton shanty whose tune was very close to Dirty Old Town - maybe that's why it's popular in Brittany. Wish I could remember its name.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: GUEST,Some bloke
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 02:31 PM

Just scanned through some of the early posts here.

I suppose many are comparing a complete song with music that forms part of a narrative in a larger experience.

It was MacColl’s lyrics in theatre workshop productions such as Landscape with Chimneys (1949) that made him of interest to Charles Parker when he wanted songs to carry on the narrative in interviews, capturing the themes. Hence the BBC Radio Ballads.

How do you tell a long term folkie from a Johnny Come Lately getting words off the Internet?

The Oirish lyrics that come up in Internet searches mix the middle verses around as per Pogues.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 02:12 PM

"Just what folk song does Ewan McColl's "Dirty Old Town" sound like?"
Ewan adapted the tune from Isla Cameron's 'Waters of Tyne' - the two were working together on the play the song was written for when it was composed
MacColl's technique was to choose a tune and spend hours humming it through, making changes until he was satisfied with it.

Jim Carroll. thread.cfm?threadid=165660&page=19#3983129


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: GUEST,Polly
Date: 22 Oct 18 - 07:27 AM

Sorry make that Shirley Collins.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: GUEST,Polly
Date: 22 Oct 18 - 07:26 AM

Goodness me. People are still listening :)
I can't help thinking that Clinton knew exactly what he was doing. He picked up a stick and prodded a sleeping dragon. It may have produced a bit of fire and brimstone but a lot of interesting reminiscences too.
Ewan MacColl remains a great hero of mine and Dirty OT a favourite despite it being (so I'm reliably informed) sung at Man. U games. I still like to sing "croft" and "Salford Wind".
I love hearing everyone's take on the folk scene back then and about the men and women who wrote and sang these lovely songs. Out of interest does anyone else share my love of Sirley Collins' version of "Foggy foggy dew"?
Pints all round,
Polly


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Oct 18 - 06:43 AM

I've just been listening to (and very much enjoying) the Alan Lomax recordings - now fully accessible on line)
Most interesting for me personally were the 1950s recordings of Ewan (and occasionally his first wife, Joan Littlewood and his mother, Betsy)
THey are full of information on Ewan when he was more of a 'Salford Lad' than he was later and they certainly give the lie to many of the myths that have sprung up about him
Lomax's contribution to our understanding of Irish and Scots is also well worth a listen
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Oct 18 - 03:38 AM

I enjoyed re-reading it too. It was like meeting an old friend :-)


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: Joe_F
Date: 21 Oct 18 - 10:01 PM

Thank you for reviving this thread, which I had not been aware of. The proportion of good manners in it is astonishing.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: meself
Date: 21 Oct 18 - 09:32 PM

Somehow never saw this thread before now ....

And to go back to its origin: the person that started it lived, and perhaps still does live, in Windsor, Ontario - perhaps he didn't spend his formative years there, and perhaps he lived out in the (rich) suburbs, but the idea of anyone in Windsor not getting this song is bewildering to me. I grew up there, about three blocks from the Chrysler plant, and even though we didn't have canals and crofts, when I first heard Dirty Old Town, I knew immediately what it was all about, and the images it evoked were from my own memory. What I find particularly ironic, is that the pub this person apparently played in regularly - the Kildare House - was right across the street from a foundry that was a vision of hell, in my younger days. We had to pass it walking to and from high school - behind a rusted chain-link fence, there were partial
walls and roofs of old sheet metal, big industrial ovens and boilers; heat, grit and smoke drifted out, and we could see dark, scowling men working, their sweaty bodies gleaming from the flames around them. Once in a while, a passing student would receive a burn from an airborne cinder. Like the warnings of some fire-and-brimstone preacher, it seemed to be there as a threat of what awaited if we didn't stay in school ....

All of which is to say, I suppose, that the OP's perception of Dirty Old Town says much more about him than about it.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Oct 18 - 09:29 PM

enjoyed hearing all those voices Mike GM and Scrump.

Jim as always in fine irascible form.

its almost a work of art really.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: GUEST,Polly
Date: 21 Oct 18 - 08:13 PM

This is amazing, a thread that was started in 2002! I think Clinton did a huge favour to fans of this song and its writer. It's given many people the opportunity to chew the fat and relive their youths, to talk about folk songs, music, plays and history.
Long live the art of discussion and folk music everywhere??
After 3 years ( last posting 2013) I wonder if anyone is still listening?


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: ollaimh
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 07:43 PM

maybe it was origionally dirty old clown, and really about a certain folk musician


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 02:11 PM

He sent you the wrong way! From the cathedral the best chippy is next to the tattoo parlour and charity shop...

:D


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Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: Weasel
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 12:28 PM

I was playing in Salford Cathedral this morning.   The Bishop gave the congregation directions to the refreshments - "Past the bookies' and turn left at the abandoned car opposite the burnt out pub."

Ah, Salford!


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