BS: Switching Genders

Subject: Switching Genders
From: Mrrzy
Date: 10 Jul 02 - 12:37 PM

...Tweeter was a BOY scout 'fore SHE went to Viet Nam...

...Girls will be boys and boys will be girls, it's a mixed up, muddled up, shook up world, except for Lola...

Just wondering... anybody else change genders in midlife? I seem to be going from "straight-but-not-narrow" to bi, now that I've turned *0... seeking songs or stories, either one.

Weirdness is afoot, as a friend of mine once said.

Subject: RE: BS: Switching Genders
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 10 Jul 02 - 12:46 PM

Sexes, surely, not genders - isn't gender purely grammatical?

Oh something something
Something something
And the boys all called her na-ha-hames
Till she found out
Medicinal compound
Now he joins in all the games

Subject: RE: BS: Switching Genders
From: Noreen
Date: 10 Jul 02 - 01:23 PM

Sounds like you mean changing sexuality, Mrrz, rather than changing sex or gender (unless you feel that you are becoming/wish to become a man?)

Don't have any songs/stories, sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Switching Genders
From: Mrrzy
Date: 10 Jul 02 - 01:44 PM

Gender = type, akin to species. The existing genders as I understand these things are straight male, gay male, bi male, straight female, lesbian (the only one with a one-word word), bi female. Sex is biological, Male-Female. I'm not changing sex, like some fishes and amphibians do... that I know of!

Subject: RE: BS: Switching Genders
From: UB Ed
Date: 10 Jul 02 - 02:18 PM

Goodness Mrrzy! A hot summer in old C'Ville? What are you getting into chile?

Holly flew into Miami, FLA
Hitchiked her way accross the USA
Plucked her eyebrows along the wy
Shaved her legs and then he was a she
And said "Hey Babe"
Take a walk on the wild side...

Ed

Subject: RE: BS: Switching Genders
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Jul 02 - 04:42 PM

Not sure if you were one of the ones who does or does not mind when someone lists an old thread, so here it is, anyway: Historical lesbigay songs, as relevant to your question, but not as a direct answer. In other words, meaning no offence.:-) If you put "lesbian" in the filter and set the age back 2-3 years, there's another long thread which comes up, too.

I've known I was bi since my early thirties. I think a lot of it, in centre-aged wimmin, has to do with experiences with men, raising children, etc. I've had many tell me when they are done, divorced, widowed, or whatever, IF they ever live with another person, including sexual intimacy or not, they would choose a woman for compatibility, friendship, etc. And, it is not because they hate men or anything exclusive like that, just that it feels as though it would be right for them. Personally, I think bi is a balanced way of life, in all things, not just sex.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Switching Genders
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 10 Jul 02 - 05:03 PM

Jan said to the Monkey Man
I'm not fooled by Tweeters curls
I knew him long before
He ever became a Jersey girl

.-)

Subject: RE: BS: Switching Genders
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jul 02 - 06:31 PM

My dictionary (Concise Oxford) gives the grammatical meaning as primary, mascauline/femine.neuter; the definition as "sex" is classed as "jocular".

And that's in a dictionary printed 1968. I think the more general use of "gender" in place of "sex" is fairly recent. Seems oddly prudish. Maybe it's from oficial forms, as an attempt to stop those people who fill in the bit that asks "sex?" with the response "yes please".

Subject: RE: BS: Switching Genders
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 10 Jul 02 - 06:42 PM

I said it before on a previous thread on Mudcat, and I will say it again: Sexuality is not a binary go/no-go thing.

It is a continuum which ranges all the way from some who are (or choose to be) totally heterosexual all the way to some who are (or choose to be ) totally homosexual.

At some point along the line is where most people find themselves. Leastways those who are capable of being honest with themselves.

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Switching Genders
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jul 02 - 06:53 PM

A bit like folk music that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Switching Genders
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 10 Jul 02 - 06:54 PM

"Welcome to the 21st Century... Gay... Straight... It's all the same... Sure, I'll take a shot in the mouth, if it'll get me a couple hundred miles down the road... Don't be so suburban."

-Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back-

Subject: RE: BS: Switching Genders
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jul 02 - 07:25 PM

"from either sex at either end" as the famous Roman poet whose name escapes me said.Welcome to the world of confusion,which may or not lead to certainty. From a Mudcatter whose cookie is twmporarily crumbled, and is perhaps not sufficiently American to do full-on sexuality discussions online.I will say it's fine from both directions. Think Ma Rainey and Bessie Smith(but don't hang your elbow out of the car window)

Subject: RE: BS: Switching Genders
From: Snuffy
Date: 10 Jul 02 - 07:28 PM

JTT -

Jennifer Eccles
Had terrible freckles

WassaiL! V

Subject: RE: BS: Switching Genders
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 10 Jul 02 - 07:33 PM

"Twas either you or I betrayed
The handsome cabin boy"

Subject: RE: BS: Switching Genders
From: harpgirl
Date: 10 Jul 02 - 07:36 PM

geez, Mrrzy...if I didn't know it was you I would have though this was a troll...had a long discussion with someone the other day about whether people choose or are consigned to their sexual behavior. I maintain that whatever it is you should not feel like you have no other choices!! like not be a victim of your sexuality or your sexual preference or your sexual choices, thoughts feelings or whatever....I don't believe we really know "the" reasons for our sexual behavior, thoughts and feelings... hg

Subject: RE: BS: Switching Genders
From: Robin2
Date: 10 Jul 02 - 09:07 PM

I think the song "Rufus And Beverly", by Mark Graham, is perfect for this post!

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Switching Genders
From: Noreen
Date: 10 Jul 02 - 09:22 PM

Well, Mrrzy, that definition of gender is a new one on me-is that a common usage where you live? Not sure what you mean by 'akin to species'; species has a very specific(!) scientific meaning which is certainly not akin to gender.

Subject: RE: BS: Switching Genders
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Jul 02 - 09:36 PM

well, I knew someone once who actually had surgery....and I know another who is barely short of that...clothes, name, dress..etc.

life is complicated, and there is MUCH we don't understand.

Subject: RE: BS: Switching Genders
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Jul 02 - 11:53 PM

Noreen, I was wondering the same...never heard it used that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Switching Genders
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Jul 02 - 09:54 AM

Species in the sense of "espèce" which means type, kind, etc. Gender to mean what I use it as is in common usage all over the US and with American expatriates too, don't know if the "countries separated by a common language" use it too. More lyrics?

Subject: RE: BS: Switching Genders
From: Grab
Date: 11 Jul 02 - 02:02 PM

Check out the BBC - story today about a British woman who's been to the European courts and got a ruling that says Britain has to give full rights to transsexuals as per their new gender. Including marriage and pensions.

Note though that birth certificates are unchanged, as it should be - that just says that you were born at a certain time and date, so changing that is illogical.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Switching Genders
From: SharonA
Date: 11 Jul 02 - 02:27 PM

Earlier this year, ABC's "20/20" program had a segment about people with "ambiguous genitalia" (hermaphrodites) and the medical controversy about operating on hermaphroditic babies to remove or reduce the enlarged clitoris for "cosmetic purposes". The lesbian and intersexual communities are claiming (rightly so, IMO) that such an operation is genetic mutilation, and that people who have had such an operation have physical and psychological damage as a result. Among the problems are painful sex because of the scar tissue, a feeling of asexuality, and inability to have an orgasm. Here's the article related to the TV program: http://abcnews.go.com/sections/2020/DailyNews/2020_intersex_020419.html

For songs, check out this list of artists and resources from Amazon Country: http://www.xpn.org/amazon/music.html

Subject: RE: BS: Switching Genders
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Jul 02 - 02:38 PM

That was a FASCINATING segment. I also saw a long thing on the same thing on PBS ... those poor folks!

Subject: RE: BS: Switching Genders
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 04:36 AM

I know of at least three fella's on the folk scene who've switched gender (Henry Kipper is now Henrietta). The other two both had voice altering surgery and it seemed to work as they both still sing - one of them has a much better voice than before.

I suppose that it's not so difficult for men - just snip, snip, snip and Bob's your Auntie !

Subject: RE: BS: Switching Genders
From: Naemanson
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 07:58 AM

My daughter left a book for me to read, "Monsieur D'Eon Is A Woman", which is the story of a French Chevalier who, at the age of 40 was ordered by King Louis XVI to assume "her" proper gender. D'Eon then lived for another 40+ years as a woman. S/He died in England, destitute, and sharing apartments with a widow of the wars. As her housemate prepared the body for the funeral she made the startling discovery that Monsieur D'Eon was in actuality a man.

I think this says a lot about the times and the attitudes. Monsieur D'Eon only had to drop his pants to prove his point (if you'll pardon the pun) to his king and his detractors. He never did and nobody asked him to prove his gender.

Let's take this one step farther. Chances are low, even considering the crowded conditions in the Army and aboard ships, that a man would be nude among his companions. I'm guessing there was one garment that was always worn that could hide the gender. And hygene wasn't a big deal back then so there were no gang showers.

My point: It was easy to cross the gender line in the 17th and 18th centuries and people did, probably more often than we can know.

Subject: RE: BS: Switching Genders
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 08:41 AM

There are many songs about Handsome Cabin Boys and female Drummers on the folk scene and there were probably plenty of real examples of these in real life. Dr James Barry rose to the rank of Inspector-General of the British army medical corps at the time of the Crimean War. It was only after his death that "he" was found to be female, and also showed signs of having given birth to a child. Strangely, she greatly disapproved of Florence Nightingale bringing nurses to the army hospitals. See THIS SITE.

There is also the legend of the Pope who proved to be female and was lynched when she gave birth in public. A lot of the stories claim she was British.

Subject: RE: BS: Switching Genders
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 09:27 AM

I'm also thinking of that great book by an American author, a novel, don't remember what it was now, but one character was a hooker with a heart of gold who only did oral things, and after her death was found to have been a man. Rita Mae Brown, maybe?

More lyrics?

Subject: RE: BS: Switching Genders
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 10:46 AM

Mrzzy, I've never heard that in common usage here, the way you meant it. When someone asks "what gender" the common answer is female or male, at least that has been my experience throughout the West and New England, as well as in correspondence with people in other countries. It's when someone starts talking about sexual orientation that the designations of lesbian, gay, straight, etc. are used. Even when one speaks of "gender-bending" it usually means someone who does something which is traditionally not usual for whatever sex they were born as.

Interesting thread.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Switching Genders
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 12:00 PM

I am reminded of a letter of condolences we got after Dad was killed, from a Christine somebody, who said we probably wouldn't remember her as back when she worked for Dad she was a man, named Christopher. At that point we remembered "him" as he'd gotten into trouble for having long hair, and when he said well, my boss (Dad) has long hair, he was told Yes, but HE's in West Africa, and you are in DC, so cut your hair. Forgot all about that, thanks for the mammaries!

Subject: RE: BS: Switching Genders
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 12:33 PM

I'm afraid that if I had a sex change I wouldn't be able to keep my hands out of my pants. Or my shirt, for that matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Switching Genders
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 01:19 PM

I suppose "sexual orientation" leaves it open whether it's a matter of choice or disposition or destiny or whatever, which is probably as well.

The phrase always makes me think of "sexual orienteering", which I think would be a somewhat different phenomenon.

Subject: RE: BS: Switching Genders
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 03:35 PM

Hee hee - drop a bunch of people naked in the woods, see if they bother to find their way home?

Subject: RE: BS: Switching Genders
From: SharonA
Date: 15 Jul 02 - 11:49 AM

Coincidentally, the Montel Williams Show's subject for last Friday's program was intersexed (hermaphroditic) people. Among the guests on the show was a guy who's been married for over 20 years and had fathered a child before his marriage, and yet had only found out last year that he was intersexed. He'd been going through his childhood medical history of multiple operations to "correct" his genitalia, and had found a prescription for a medication to be administered vaginally.

The guy's wife was also on the program, and spoke briefly about her initial shock at the news and about asking her husband if his discovery would mean the end of their marriage. His response had been to say no, that he had promised his self to her for life, not just his body or his gender. For the wife's part, she accepts him for what he is – the person who loves her and is bonded with her – and they are still happily married!

Two of the other guests on the show were quite a contrast: one, a very masculine-looking guy, revels in his co-gender status and jokes that he's never hard up for a date of either sex and that he enjoys "presenting" as a man by putting on the costume; the other, a shy and hesitant person, had presented as a boy and then a man, but finally decided that in today's American society it was easier to succeed socially by presenting as a masculine (relatively big-boned) female than by presenting as an effeminate (in this case, short, high-voiced and wispy-bearded) male. Interesting social statement, IMO.

Yet another guest didn't find the physiological answer to her intersexuality until she learned that she had been an identical twin and that her twin had died in the womb, 8 weeks into the pregnancy. Then there was an all-too-brief statement from a medical professional to the effect that since every embryo starts out as a female and since the male ones "become" male as androgens effect that process, any interruption to the process during the pregnancy (such as the miscarriage of that twin) can result in one degree or another of intersex organs – from an enlarged clitoris to the presence of testicles and ovaries!

Like Mrrzy, I find the subject fascinating. There's lots more information to be found by going to Google.com and doing a search on the keyword "intersex". Among the hits for that search are the Intersex Society of North America and the United Kingdom Intersex Society, as well as an international support group and a support group for intersex survivors of domestic violence, plus other support groups, medical info, international court cases, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Switching Genders
From: SharonA
Date: 15 Jul 02 - 12:09 PM

P.S. – By the way, here's a list of resources (from the Intersex Society of North America site) "for people dealing with gender identity issues": http://www.isna.org/library/tsresources.html

In the introduction to this list, the ISNA draws a contrast between transsexuality and intersexuality, stating: "Some transsexual people and their advocates argue that transsexuality is a form of intersexuality that manifests in the brain, citing preliminary researches suggesting a possible biological 'cause' of transsexuality, or 'gender identity disorder.' However, such claim misses the point that the intersex movement is not about whether or not something is biologically rooted, but about how our bodies are treated by medical authority as we grow up and live. Some transsexual people are in fact also intersexed and some intersex people do transition genders, [while the] majority are not."

Subject: RE: BS: Switching Genders
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Jul 02 - 12:41 PM

Any songs about it yet? I can think of transvestite songs and transsexual songs, but intrasexual ones... ?

Subject: RE: BS: Switching Genders
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Jul 02 - 01:10 PM

When one 'changes' one's gender which box on a form does one click?

Subject: RE: BS: Switching Genders
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 15 Jul 02 - 01:34 PM

Mrzzy I didn't quite understand when I heard Peggy Seger describe how after Ewan McColl died she then went on to live with a woman
She said it as though it were the most natural thing in the world, and maybe it was
I could easily live with people of any sexuality or sex, though if 'live with' infered sexual acts then I have always had one orientation and it would be difficult to produce an interest in any other

Now I am slightly worried though, have you always had these feelings Mrzzy? If not does that mean I could have a similar seismic shift at some point?

Subject: RE: BS: Switching Genders
From: SharonA
Date: 15 Jul 02 - 02:09 PM

I found a few songs on this site: http://transgender.coolfreepages.com/index.htm Go to the Links page there, scroll down to "Gender Music & Bands". As you open these links, be aware that music will play automatically for some. One artist listed there is Christine Cochrane; I pasted the lyrics to a couple of her songs below (RealAudio and mp3 versions of each are at her link). It's a start, anyway...

"Let Me Out of Here (Cheryl's Cry)" by Christine Cochrane

You've recognised this person the whole of your life.
You've listened to the words that she's said.
You've known her all along
because she is there, inside your head.
You've listened to her tell you how she wants to be free,
and how she can fulfill all your dreams.
You know she is right,
but you just don't know what it all means.

(chorus) You've listened to her voice whisper quiet in your ear.
You've listened to her thoughts, so loud and so clear.
"Let me out of here, let me out of here,
I want to feel the sun on my face.
I want to do the things that every woman can do.
I want to take my natural place.
Let me out of here, let me out of here
I've been in here too lonely too long.
I want to show the world what this woman can do.
I want to be out where I belong."
Where I belong.

She's wanted to express all her emotions and thoughts.
She's always tried to put up a fight.
She's torn you both apart,
and that's when you've found yourself crying at night.
You've often sat and pondered on the meaning of life
and whether this is part of a plan.
You know you have the mind of a beautiful girl,
but the shell of a man. (chorus)

You finally decide you will fulfil all your dreams,
and make your mind and body as one.
You know that there are many changes ahead,
but the journey's begun.
You're very glad you listened to the things that she'd said
You listened to her voice in your ear.
And now that you have charted our course straight ahead,
it all seems so clear. (chorus)


"The Little Voice" by Christine Cochrane

You think your life is upside down,
you're sure it's all gone wrong,
you feel the world around you is absurd.
You're convinced your heart is broken,
how long can this go on;
then you stop and hear a little voice
that's crying to be heard.
You'd like to tell your friends that know you
of the way you are.
You'd like them just to see you for yourself.
You're tired of all this misery;
it's really gone too far,
but you know that little voice inside you crying
is yourself, when it says

(chorus) You are a beautiful one,
and you shine like the sun.
You can rise above;
and the little voice inside you
is the one that you should recognise and love.

You've tried your best to compromise;
you've done it for so long.
It's almost second nature, but not quite.
You've gone along with friends who've said
that what you feel is wrong,
but it really starts to hurt you
in the middle of the night.
You've listened to some good advice,
you've listened to some bad.
You've listened to them tugging at your heart.
You've examined all your feelings,
every one you've ever had,
but that little voice inside you says
it's tearing you apart, and it says (chorus)

It's time to listen to your heart,
it's time to get ahead.
It's time to understand the one you are.
To not believe in compromise,
but in yourself instead,
and it's time to put aside all fears
and make a brand new start.
To banish all uncertainty,
to banish all the doubt,
and just believe in all the things you do.
And listen to that little voice
for it will cry out loud
that the only one to make it right
is you: and it says (chorus)


"The Man and The Girl" by Christine Cochrane

She sits at her screen watching her world go by,
alone and unseen yet still in the public eye.
That poor little girl, to the rest of the world, that's all there is.
He sits on his own thinking up things to do.
He sits all alone wondering why or who
is that poor little girl crying out to the world, is that all there is.

(chorus) Words flicker by on her screen and she stops to stare.
Words from the ends of the earth that contain so much truth.
Words from people she'll never see yet who often care.
Words of infinite age or impetuous youth.

He sits at his screen watching his world go by.
But hardly a sound comes from the one inside.
From that poor little girl, crying out to the world, is that all there is.
He looks in his heart wondering why it is
that fate has conspired to play such a trick as this.
On the man and the girl. It's a hard cruel world; that's all there is?

(repeat verse 1) (repeat chorus)

They sit at their screen watching their world go by.
Alone and unseen yet still in the public eye.
Just the man and the girl; to the rest of the world, that's all there is.

Subject: RE: BS: Switching Genders
From: SharonA
Date: 15 Jul 02 - 02:19 PM

Rats! Sorry about not unbolding after the title of the 2nd song (I hate when I do that!). I found the above by doing a Google search on "intersex lyrics" and got lots of other hits also.

But as far as "intrasexual songs" go... I'm not sure what you mean, Mrrzy. If you're talking woman-with-woman, the Amazon link I posted the other day should help. One artist's name that comes to mind is Pat Humphries; if she isn't on the Amazon resource page, she should be.

Subject: RE: BS: Switching Genders
From: Art Thieme
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 12:56 AM

And it was the Captain found out the secret
Of the handsome cabin boy...

Art

Subject: RE: BS: Switching Genders
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 11:30 AM

I meant people who are between sexes, SharonA. But I definitely didn't use the right term.

have you always had these feelings Mrzzy? If not does that mean I could have a similar seismic shift at some point? asks Roger in Sheffield. Well, Roger, I've always liked to LOOK at people of my sex, but I never wanted to DO anything with them. There was always something yucky about the idea. Then the other day, there was nothing yucky... it reminded me of waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back in the day, when I thought the idea of normal, oral sex yucky. Got over that one a while back... maybe it just took me an extra 25 years or so to get past the Yuck of same-sex sex, and I was always kind of bi. I thought that I had a bi EROTIC orientation but a straight SEXUAL orientation, to use the psychological jargon, when come to find my sexual orientation has now caught up with? Merged with? my erotic orientation. So my guess is, anyone who's never had anything bi in their outlook (no MS jokes please) will likely not suddenly have, as you put it, a seismic shift. But you may wake up one day thinking some things just aren't yucky anymore!

Subject: RE: BS: Switching Genders
From: greg stephens
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 11:46 AM

Well,I think I know what you mean Mrrzy. but we'd just adjusted to your odd use of gender, now we've got to figure out the difference between your erotic and sexual orientation. you seem to mean erotic is what you think about, and sexual is what you do. But if you were thinking about it erotically, you wouldnt have been thinking it was yucky, would you? I'm confused again.

Subject: RE: BS: Switching Genders
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 12:05 PM

I have lots of erotic fantasies......
that are great as fantasies.....
I would not want them to happen in real life
Some of them seem quite wonderful in my mind..... yet could be quite yucky in practice.

Subject: RE: BS: Switching Genders
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 03:04 PM

Right - if I look at person X and get horny, that isn't the same as thinking that screwing X would not be yucky.

Words are good. They say good things. Or at least they say things.

Think about a straight-but-not-narrow man, for instance, looking at erotica of men - he may get a hard-on but the person he wants to get rid of it with is a woman. Make sense?

Subject: RE: BS: Switching Genders
From: SharonA
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 03:47 PM

Hmmm... I remember that, a few months ago, Mrrzy started a thread asking for secular songs to use during a religiously-unspecified midwinter gathering (NOT to be confused with a Christmas celebration!). Now she seems on the verge of making a "gender-non-specific" decision about whom to kiss under the mistletoe! *G*

Now there's a song: "I saw Mommy kissing Mrs. Santa Claus..." ;^)

Subject: RE: BS: Switching Genders
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 05:20 PM

Mrrzy I am not sure where the 'yucky' part is from. When I am attracted to someone I imagine that sex with them would be wonderful. Is it the taboo of it being a person of the same sex that makes you think it should/would be yucky? - maybe you should do some research :)
I am not so sure that most men would interested in male erotica either, they might be intimidated or feel superior, but I don't think it would produce a sexual response

Roger