Origins: Sweet Fern

Subject: Sweet Fern origin
From: Gentle Annie
Date: 10 Jul 02 - 07:39 PM

Is "Sweet Fern" a traditional song? An A.P. Carter composition? Really written by Pop Stoneman? I've heard all the above but would like to know its true origin.

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Subject: RE: Help: Sweet Fern origin
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Jul 02 - 08:55 PM

Copyright Southern Music Pub. Co., A. P. Carter. Did he borrow it? No data.

Subject: RE: Help: Sweet Fern origin
From: Art Thieme
Date: 10 Jul 02 - 09:40 PM

Sweet Fern got it's name from the smell when you try to smoke it.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Help: Sweet Fern origin
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Jul 02 - 11:25 PM

It has a sweet odor when crushed. Comptonia perigrina is a native of coniferous forests from the Maritimes and New England to Georgia, and west to the Great Lakes and the Dakotas, in well-drained soils, often around Jack pine. It harbors a blister rust which damages pines.
It belongs to the Myrtle family; it is not a fern although the leaf is fern-like. Good small garden shrub (takes poor sandy soil and doesn't need a lot of water); the tea is supposedly good for dysentary. Bears small nuts (bird food).

Any benefits from smoking it other than sore lungs?

Subject: RE: Help: Sweet Fern origin
From: RangerSteve
Date: 11 Jul 02 - 12:55 AM

AP Carter had a habit of copyrighting songs that were in the public domain. Sometimes he changed a word or two to make it his own. Sweet Fern sounds like a 19th century popular tune.

Subject: Origins: Sweet Fern origin
From: GUEST,Pete Peterson
Date: 11 Jul 02 - 11:06 AM

Charles Wolfe (in the book about the C.F. that accompanies the Bear Family set) says that "Sweet Fern was a song AP found in his collecting trips into the east Tennessee hills; more commonly known as Sweet Bird, it was written and copyrighted in 1876 by Thomas Westendorf and George Persley. It shows up in a number of southern folksonhg collections and had even been recorded the year before (1928) by WV singers Orville Reed and Richard Harold." Good guess, Ranger Steve!

Subject: RE: Help: Sweet Fern origin
From: GUEST,wilco48
Date: 11 Jul 02 - 11:24 AM

I don't know much about the origins of many songs, but here is what I heard from Patsy Stoneman last year. Patsy is the daughter of Pop Stoneman, and she has spent a lifetime in country music. I would estimate that she is around seventy now, and she still performs. I've seen her at several autoharp festivals. Last year, at the Mountain Laurel Autoharp Gathering (www.MLAG) in Newport, PA., Patsy was there, as were Joe and Janette Carter. Joe and Janette are two of A.P. Carter and Sara Daugherty Carter's children. They are in their seventies too. Back when the Carters were real popular, they needed lots of material. A.P. would call around, and Pop Stoneman was a frequent contributor. A.P called Pop, and Pop told him about a song that eventually was recorded as "Sweet Fern." The Carters and Patsy all agreed that the song had another title, and the word "fern" was definitely wrong, that A.P. had a bad phone connection!!!! Patsy lives near McMinville, Tennessee, and she would love to hear from fans. The Carters still operate Carter Fold in Hiltons, VA. The Carters have their big festival in a few weekends 276-386-9480.

Subject: RE: Help: Sweet Fern origin
From: GUEST,Pete Peterson
Date: 11 Jul 02 - 12:38 PM

new book out by Mark Zwonitzer and Chas. Hirshberg-- "Will You Miss Me when I'm Gone: The Carter Family and their Legacy in American Music" p./ 120 talks about Sweet Fern, first giving the Wolfe data and then "meanwhile Gladys (AP and Sara's daughter) always insisted her father authored the song. "I can tell you where Daddy wrote a song ohne time." she said in 1990. "Right over behind the house here. The blackberries were ripe. . . and there's a little old bird up in the tree a-singin' and Daddy was a-throwin berries,and he come back-- Sweet Fern. He got the tune to it from that b ird a-singin' to him and (the berries a-hittin' the bucket. And he come back and said "Sary,I thought up a song, and he wrote it and they made that record." 'the historian and the daughter are probably both right, in a way. Like as not, AP did get some lyrics for Sweet Bird. . . and like as not, he did get the idea for the call-and-response arrangement from his blackberry expedition. And like as not, Sara and Maybelle took AP's notion and remade the melody and instrumentals into something barely suggested by the old sheet music."
with I had something of my own to say instead of quoting others, but I can't think of anything else to add!

Subject: RE: Help: Sweet Fern origin
From: masato sakurai
Date: 11 Jul 02 - 01:22 PM

The Carter Family's "Sweet Fern" can be heard at the Honkingduck site.

~Masato

Subject: RE: Help: Sweet Fern origin
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Jul 02 - 02:05 PM

There's a great message from Carter Nut hidden in another thread. I think it should be posted here. Looks like Carter Nut and Pete Peterson use the same book for reference.
-Joe Offer-

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Thread #10652   Message #78565
Posted By: CarterNut
14-May-99 - 08:45 PM
Thread Name: Songs and Tunes for Autoharp?
Subject: Lyr Add: SWEET FERN^^

Hey guys and gals, here are the Carter Family words to "Sweet Fern". As I am kind of a small scale Carter historian and a large scale Carter music enthusiast, I could only find that A.P. found the song on one of his song hunting trips. This was a common song around that area (Eastern Tennessee/Southwestern Virginia) and was usually called "Sweet Birds". Actually, the song was written and copyrighted under the latter title in 1876 by Thomas Westendorf and George Persley. However, A.P. Carter is given credit for writing the song by Ralph S. Peer- A.P. essentially changed the original wording and perhaps even the tune while adding the yodel after each chorus.

SWEET FERN
Springtime is coming sweet lonesome bird,
Your echo in the woodland I hear;
Down in the meadow so lonesome you're singing,
While the moonlight is shining so clear.

Chorus:
But I know he's away in a far distant land,
A land that's far over the sea;
Go fly to him singing your sweet little song,
And tell him to come back to me.
Sweet Fern, Sweet Fern,
Oh, tell me is my darling still true;
Sweet Fern, Sweet Fern,
I'll be just as happy as you.

Yodel: O-dell-eeho-eeho-layhee, edell-leo-leo-layhee,
Ay-leo-lay-dee-hee-oh-leolayhee.

2. Oh tell me sweet fern is he thinking of me and the promise we made long ago;
He said he'd return from far over the sea oh why do the years go so slow. Chorus/Yodel

3. And upon my finger he placed a small ring on the day he was leaving his home;
I said I would be his own dear little girl and would love him wherever he'd roam. Chorus/Yodel

The Carter Family recorded this song on February 14, 1929 and over the years many of the members have played the song on the autoharp, for instance Mother Maybelle, Sara, Janette(Sara and A.P.'s daughter), as well as Helen, June, and Anita. Each has there distinctive way of playing it.

Hope I have been some help.
John J.

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The UTK Song Index lists "Sweet Birds" in one book, called Alabama Folk Lyric. Can anybody come up with lyrics to "Sweet Birds"?
-Joe Offer-

Subject: ADD: Sweet Birds
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Jul 02 - 02:23 PM

The original was the song known as "Sweet Birds."
The story is the same- the promise made long ago, etc. Brown, North Carolina Folklore, has two versions, with music, coll. ca. 1921-1922. I only have vol. 5, so do not have the texts except for the first verse and chorus.

I would very much like to get the complete lyrics, if anyone has vol. 3.

Lyr. Add: SWEET BIRDS

The birds are returning their sweet notes of spring
O'er meadows and brooklets so dear
'Way down by the dell where they joyfully sing
A message of hope and good cheer,
As I sit in the dream of my slumber so deep
And my darling far over the sea,-
Just ask the sweet birds as they come back to me
And say I've a message for thee.

Chorus:
Sweet birds, sweet birds,
Oh say that my lover is true,
Sweet birds, sweet birds,
And then I'll be as happy as you.

SWEET BIRDS B

Oh, tell me, sweet birds, is he thinking of me
And the promise he made long ago?
If he would return, how happy I'd be!
Oh, why does the years creep so slow?
I'm tired and heartsick of waiting so long
For my lover who's far over the sea.
Go to him and sing him your beautiful song
And tell him to come back to me.

Chorus:
Oh bird, sweet bird
Oh tell me my lover is true!
Oh bird, sweet bird,
And I'll be as happy as you.

pp. 211, 212, vol. 5, The Music of the Folk Songs, Ed. Jan Philip Schinhan. Brown, North Carolina Folklore.

I looked through the sheet music of T. P. Westendorf and Westendorf and G. W. Persley at American Memory and the Levy site, but could not find a song of that approximate title. Westendorf was prolific; probably songs that these sites don't have, or the title is different.

Subject: RE: Help: Sweet Fern origin
From: masato sakurai
Date: 11 Jul 02 - 07:10 PM

I've got a recording of "Sweet Bird" by West Virginia Night Owls (rec. December 19, 1927; Camden, NJ), w2hich is on Old-Time Music of West Virginia - Volume One (County CO-CD-3518). No info on the song is given. It has three verses (1st resembles Dicho's "Sweet Birds"; 2nd Dicho's B). Sound clip is HERE.

~Masato

Subject: RE: Help: Sweet Fern origin
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 03:09 PM

"Sweet Birds" is sung by Patsy Stoneman Murphy on an album of Stoneman Family songs, "Patsy Sings Pop--- Stoneman, That Is!" Stonehouse Music, no number Stoneman

Subject: RE: Help: Sweet Fern origin
From: masato sakurai
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 09:20 PM

"[H]e [Ernest Stoneman] had first recorded 'The Birds Are Returning' (better known as 'Sweet Fern') at the time of his ill-fated session with Fields Ward"; it was released in 1929 (no. is "GE-14878-A"); recorded later again, in 1968 (MGM 4588) (Ivan M. Tribe, The Stonemans, University of Illinois Press, pp. 203, 310, 323).

~Masato

Subject: RE: Help: Sweet Fern origin
From: raredance
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 11:58 PM

Here goes. Sweet Birds "A" from FCBCNCF.

The birds are returning their sweet notes of spring
O'er meadows and brooklets so near
'Way down by the dell where they joyfully sing
A message of hope and good cheer,
As I sit in the dream of my slumber so deep
For my darling far over the sea.
Just ask the sweet birds as they drop off to sleep,
Oh say, does he truly love me?

CH:
Sweet birds, sweet birds,
Oh say that my lover is true,
Sweet birds, sweet birds,
And then I'll be as happy as you.

Oh tell me, sweet birds, is he thinking of me
And the promise he made long ago?
I would gladly give all this world if he'd come back to me.
Oh, why do the years roll so slow?
I'm weary and heart-sick of waiting so long
For my darling far over the sea.
Just go to him singing your beautiful song
And tell him to come back to me.

He said when we parted he loved no one but me.
He called me his darling, his pride;
he said when he came from over the sea
He'd make me his own cherished bride.
But I fear he has found in some far distant land
Some face that is fairer than mine.
I would give all this world for one clasp of his hand
And know that his heart is still mine.

contributed by Wagner A Reese in 1921 or 1922.

rich r

Subject: RE: Help: Sweet Fern origin
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Jul 02 - 12:04 AM

Thanks rich r. It will be interesting to compare the Westendorf-Persley song to see if they really are the same .

Subject: RE: Help: Sweet Fern origin
From: raredance
Date: 13 Jul 02 - 12:13 AM

In the forward to "Folk-Songs du Midi des Etats-Unis" by Josiah Combs, D. Wilgus describes a 1915 outline brochure for a series of 5 lectures by Combs. Lecture 1 item 10 is "Sweet Birds (Traditional)?" so there was already some confusion way back then.

rich r

Subject: RE: Help: Sweet Fern origin
From: raredance
Date: 13 Jul 02 - 12:26 AM

"In the Pine, Selected Kentucky Folksongs" by L Roberts, C Buell Agey & Jan Philip Schinan (1978 Pikeville College Press)has a text that matches the Carter versiion in the DT, i.e. no mention of yodeling. Two minor differences, in verse 1 "the" woodlands (I suspect a typo in the DT) and in the last verse a "gold" ring. That text was collected in 1959, plenty of time to be influenced by recordings.

rich r

Subject: RE: Help: Sweet Fern origin
From: raredance
Date: 13 Jul 02 - 12:37 AM

Version "E" in FCBCNCF is like version "A" except the latter part of the second verse is a bit expanded.

Oh why do the days glide by so slowly
Oh why do the days seem so long?
If he would only come back to me
Oh, then how happy I would be!
I'm weary,heart-sick of waiting so long
For my darling far over the sea.
Just fly to him singing some beautiful song
And tell him to come back to me.

rich r

Subject: RE: Help: Sweet Fern origin
From: raredance
Date: 13 Jul 02 - 12:44 AM

The FCBCNCF text "C" is virtually identical to the Carter version Joe Offer entered above, including the instruction to yodel after the chorus following stanza 2. Very minor differences, years "roll" so slow, and the "gold ring" again. This song was collected in 1930 which would have been a year after the Carter recording.

rich r

Subject: RE: Help: Sweet Fern origin
From: harpgirl
Date: 13 Jul 02 - 12:49 AM

...once again...thanks for the scholarship, rich!!

Subject: RE: Help: Sweet Fern origin
From: raredance
Date: 13 Jul 02 - 01:00 AM

Here's text "B" from FCBCNCF. From a manuscript song book of Juanita Tillett of Wanchese, 1923. Main difference is different order for stanzas

Tell me, sweet bird, is he thinking of me
And the promise he made long ago?
If he would return, how happy I'd be!
Oh, why does the years creep so slow?
I'm tired and heart-sick of waiting so long
For my lover who's far o'er the sea.
Go to him and sing him your beautiful song
And tell him to come back to me.

CH:
O bird, sweet bird
Tell me my lover is true
O bird, sweet bird
I'll be as happy as you.

He told me when parting he loved only me,
He called me his joy and his pride
Said when he returned from over the sea
He'd make me his own happy bride
I fear he has found in some far distant land
A face that is fairer to view
I'd give the whole world for a grasp of his hand
And to know that my lover is true.

When the birds are a-tuning their sweet notes of spring
And the brooks and the meadows I see
Now in the deep they joyously sing
And the silver brooks sparkles so clear
I'll sit myself down in a shadow so deep
For my lover who's far o'er the sea
I'll ask all the birds as they go off to sleep
Do they think that he truly loves me?

Also reported but not printed is a version "D" collected in 1911 that is described as "somewhat reduced, but introduces no new elements". They also say the song is in a Beech Mountain Folk song book from 1936 and reported by Davis in Folk-songs of Virginia.

rich r

Subject: RE: Help: Sweet Fern origin
From: masato sakurai
Date: 13 Jul 02 - 01:22 AM

Rich r, thanks a lot. That would help to "reconstruct" the Westendorf piece (who is the composer of "I'll take you home again, Kathleen").

Sara & Maybelle sing "Sweet Fern" in John Cohen's B/W film Sara and Maybelle, which is available as part 3 of That High Lonesome Sound: Films of American Rural Life and Music (Shan1404).

~Masato

Subject: RE: Help: Sweet Fern origin
From: masato sakurai
Date: 13 Jul 02 - 10:01 AM

"Sweet Fern" (The Carter Family's version; stanzas 1-2 without yodel) sung by Doc and Chickie Williams can be heard at the The Record Lady's All-Time Country Favorites. Click on "Real Country Archives Page 10."

~Masato

Subject: RE: Help: Sweet Fern origin
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Jul 02 - 11:16 AM

George and Mary Williamson sing "Sweet Birds" on 80010, LP, Our Mountain Heritage, which may be available from Old Homestead Records.

Subject: RE: Help: Sweet Fern origin
From: Art Thieme
Date: 13 Jul 02 - 01:56 PM

My post above that mentioned smoking the stuff was A JOKE (I thought). But Mudcatters have made this thread into a really fascinating insightful one that looks into the larger story behind this song and is varients. I'm gonna save it along with many of it's predecessors on so very many topics.

Thanks to you all for showing me the values inherant in something I would've just dismissed as a nice little song if I'd been left to my own resources.

In admiration,

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Help: Sweet Fern origin
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Jul 02 - 02:07 PM

Like Art Thieme, I had no idea about the song (other than the Carter version). I posted a description of the plant for general info. Then the relationship to "Sweet Bird(s)" came out and made the plant references superfluous.
We still lack the Westendorf sheet music, but I expect it will come out. Then go on to look at where Westendorf got the idea? (Origin- folk or Westendorf's fertile brain?).

Subject: RE: Help: Sweet Fern origin
From: masato sakurai
Date: 14 Jul 02 - 01:24 PM

Other recordings.

Sweet Fern (Carter version), sung by Ollie Gilbert, Mountain View, Arkansas on August 27, 1969 (The Max Hunter Collection).

The Carter Family: Beautiful Brown Eyes & Sweet Fern (Live on Border Radio). Minus yodeling this time.

~Masato

Subject: RE: Help: Sweet Fern origin
From: Stewie
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 07:50 PM

According to the Meade, Spottswood and Meade discography 'Country Music Sources', Fred Pendleton and Arville Reed recorded 'Sweet Bird' as a vocal duet under their own names in December 1927 and as The Virginia Night Owls in March 1928. Sid Harkreader and Grady Moore also recorded it in March 1928. Richard Harold recorded it in October 1928 with guitar and fiddle backing, but musicians names were not listed. The Carters issued recordings under the 'Sweet Fern' title in 1929 (twice), 1935 and 1936. Fields Ward and His Grayson County Railsplitters also recorded a version in 1929 under the title 'The Birds Are Returning'. There were several recordings in the 1930s under a variety of titles by Bob Cranford and A.P. Thompson (1931), Sweet Violet Boys (Prairie Ramblers) (1936), Aunt Idy Harper and the Coon Creek Girls (1938) and (Charlie) Monroe's Boys (1939).

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: Help: Sweet Fern origin
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 07:57 PM

Still no Westendorf and Persley lyrics?

Subject: RE: Help: Sweet Fern origin
From: masato sakurai
Date: 17 Jul 02 - 03:17 AM

Stewie, thanks for the info. I'll order that discography.

~Masato

Subject: RE: Help: Sweet Fern origin
From: Stewie
Date: 17 Jul 02 - 04:16 AM

My pleasure, Masato. The 1002-page volume is very expensive, but indispensible for oldtimey enthusiasts. It has been a long wait. The full details for others who might be interested are:

Douglas S. Meade, Dick Spottswood and Guthrie T. Meade Jr 'Country Music Sources: A Biblio-Discography of Commercially Recorded Traditional Music' Published by the Southern Folklife Collection, The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Libraries, in Association with the John Edwards Memorial Forum 2002. It is distributed by University of North Carolina Press.

The definition of 'traditional music' for the purposes of the discography includes 'all those recorded songs that have appeared in published folk song collections as well as those songs copyrighted or appearing in print prior to 1920. As this 1920 cutoff date is somewhat artificial, it is also treated flexibly, as numerous post-1920 compositions in the traditional style are also included in the discography. In this regard, the discography covers around 90% of the recorded repertoires of the early country entertainers, but less than 50% of later performers'.

Given that it is the fruit of decades of labour and meticulous scholarship and that relatively few copies will be sold, it is not expensive. I purchased it as a special order through an Australian bookshop for about $A300. I believe it can be purchased in America for about $US90.

Tony Russell's long-awaited discography, which is to be available next year from Oxford University Press, should complement this very nicely indeed. I understand Russell's volume will also incorporate a western swing discography by Cary Ginell that is currently available.

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: Help: Sweet Fern origin
From: harpgirl
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 09:49 PM

help! I need the chords that Dr. Peterson put in the forum somewhere. Can anyone find them?

Subject: RE: Help: Sweet Fern origin
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 11:26 PM

sh, go to this page clickety and look through the various postings pf Pete's and others. If they are anywhere, they should be in one of those.

Beautiful song!

kat