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Help: nic jones reissue

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SINGER'S REQUEST


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GUEST,james_piercy@hotmail.com 15 Jul 02 - 08:32 AM
GUEST 15 Jul 02 - 08:40 AM
GUEST,pavane 15 Jul 02 - 10:00 AM
GUEST 15 Jul 02 - 10:10 AM
pavane 16 Jul 02 - 02:04 AM
GUEST 16 Jul 02 - 07:49 AM
greg stephens 16 Jul 02 - 07:59 AM
GUEST,pavane 16 Jul 02 - 10:07 AM
Ron Olesko 16 Jul 02 - 10:45 AM
GUEST,SeanN 16 Jul 02 - 11:54 AM
greg stephens 16 Jul 02 - 12:11 PM
GUEST,SeanN 16 Jul 02 - 12:24 PM
GUEST,Nerd 16 Jul 02 - 01:28 PM
GUEST,pavane 16 Jul 02 - 01:58 PM
GUEST,Nerd 16 Jul 02 - 02:21 PM
Ron Olesko 16 Jul 02 - 02:32 PM
GUEST 16 Jul 02 - 03:00 PM
GUEST 16 Jul 02 - 03:00 PM
GUEST,pavane 16 Jul 02 - 03:06 PM
GUEST,pavane 16 Jul 02 - 03:16 PM
GUEST,greg stephens cookieless 16 Jul 02 - 03:18 PM
GUEST 16 Jul 02 - 03:20 PM
GUEST,greg stephens 16 Jul 02 - 03:27 PM
GUEST,SeanN 16 Jul 02 - 03:27 PM
GUEST,pavane 16 Jul 02 - 03:48 PM
Ron Olesko 16 Jul 02 - 03:49 PM
GUEST 16 Jul 02 - 03:54 PM
GUEST 16 Jul 02 - 04:02 PM
GUEST,greg stephens 16 Jul 02 - 04:27 PM
GUEST,SeanN 16 Jul 02 - 04:35 PM
GUEST,greg stephens 16 Jul 02 - 04:41 PM
Ron Olesko 16 Jul 02 - 04:48 PM
Harry Basnett 16 Jul 02 - 04:53 PM
GUEST,SeanN 16 Jul 02 - 04:54 PM
GUEST,greg stephens 16 Jul 02 - 04:54 PM
Ron Olesko 16 Jul 02 - 04:59 PM
GUEST,greg stephens 16 Jul 02 - 05:01 PM
GUEST 16 Jul 02 - 05:01 PM
GUEST 16 Jul 02 - 05:03 PM
GUEST,greg stephens 16 Jul 02 - 05:06 PM
GUEST,SeanN 16 Jul 02 - 05:40 PM
GUEST,SeanN 16 Jul 02 - 05:43 PM
GUEST,Lo and Behold 16 Jul 02 - 09:40 PM
GUEST,Nerd 17 Jul 02 - 01:15 AM
GUEST,greg stephens 17 Jul 02 - 01:33 AM
Fossil 17 Jul 02 - 05:01 AM
Harry Basnett 17 Jul 02 - 01:46 PM
RolyH 17 Jul 02 - 03:48 PM
Ralphie 17 Jul 02 - 04:15 PM
Ralphie 17 Jul 02 - 04:16 PM
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Subject: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST,james_piercy@hotmail.com
Date: 15 Jul 02 - 08:32 AM

I hear that finally Nic's first album "Ballads and songs" has been reissued. LERCD2014. I've been trying for a week and can't find anyone who knows where to get it though. Anybody help? James


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jul 02 - 08:40 AM

See your previous thread


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST,pavane
Date: 15 Jul 02 - 10:00 AM

This is a Celtic Music/Bulmer issue. Please read the Celtic Music threads before trying to purchase.

Would you buy this knowing that Nic will not receive a penny from it? (I will take it back if I am proved wrong)

Would you support any organisation which would knowingly deprive a substantial number of other folk performers of their rightful income?

Would you buy it if it was burned on a home CR writer, not commercially pressed? Better check first!


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jul 02 - 10:10 AM

Yes to 1 and 3 - I want to hear this music. Is that so wrong?

If Nic gets no money from it, I'll send him a cheque for the amount he's being 'ripped off'

Come on, have you never had a friend tape you an album?


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: pavane
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 02:04 AM

See the other Nic Jones reissue thread. CM are ripping off the whole UK folk scene, not just Nic.

In buying, you are contributing to their funds which they could use in defence costs against being sued for outstanding royalties.

And Nic does NOT receive a penny, even though it is due.

But go ahead and be selfish if you must. I will not replace my scratched vinyl just yet.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 07:49 AM

Well Pavane,

Being as you already have the recordings, you have no need to be 'selfish'

I've wanted to hear this stuff for years. I've hunted high and low for vinyl copies but can't find them.

If wanting to hear great music is selfish, then I'll hold my hands up and admit that I am.

As I've already stated, I'd send a cheque off to Mollie Music if I ever found bootleg copies.

How can I better proceed, morally?


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: greg stephens
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 07:59 AM

I'm ignorant of technolgy, what ecactly is the difference between the way commercial quantities of CD's are produced, and the sort of thing you can buy to copy CD's at home. I'd sort of imagined that the point of"digital" was that a copy is an exact copy. Is this not actually the case?


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST,pavane
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 10:07 AM

No, the way a home CD writer 'burns' a CD is totally different, and the copies are thought to be much less reliable, and probably have a shorter life.

It IS an exact copy, but made with different technology

Rather like the difference between a wax cylinder and pressed vinyl.

And yes, guest, I can sympathise. The performances are excellent. But I understand that Nic himself does not want these reissues to be available.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 10:45 AM

Having read the threads about David Bulmer, I'm still confused over the situation. Perhaps being on this side of the Atlantic I'm not aware of the whole story.

Please correct me if my summation is inaccurate. I'm not trying to flame this issue, but I'm honestly trying to understand the situation.

From what I gathered from the threads, David Bulmer PURCHASED the rights to catalogs from several now defunct record labels. He is holding the rights to several Nic Jones recordings and recently has released a few titles. Bulmer had refused in the past to relinquish the rights to these recordings or sell them to Nic Jones.

As a humanitarian and patron of the arts, this David Bulmer will probably not win an award. As a businessman, I don't really see that he has done anything wrong. This whole issue points out a sad fact that artists would sign over rights to their work for a variety of reasons. At the time it seemed like a good career move - maybe selling albums, maybe gaining recognition, or maybe just to make a living. Now in retrospect the deal didn't work out in the artists favor. In this country I know of many artists who signed away the rights to their recordings.

Still, if it weren't for these original "deals", would we have had any of these "national treasures" in the first place? If Jones didn't sign that contract, would we EVER have had the opportunity to hear "Ballads and Songs".

Personally I would opt to buy the "legal" releases - In Search of Nic Jones and Unearthed. However, I do understand our guests interest in wanting to hear these classics. While he may not be helping Nic Jones by purchasing them, he certainly isn't doing anything illegal or immoral for that matter.

This whole situation really points out the fact that an artist needs to be careful before signing their name to the dotted line.

Ron


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST,SeanN
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 11:54 AM

I agree with you Ron. The level of hysteria surrounding Nic Jones's albums owned by Dave Bulmer has really befuddled the actual situation. As I understood the past debates here (and Ralphie's contribution to it in particular), it was my understanding that everyone was after Bulmer to release the albums. Now that he has reissued a LEGAL release of "Ballads and Songs" the Jones camp is screaming at people for buying it.

I found the cover to "Unearthed" to be grossly offensive. I find the Jones camp's attempts to bully the buying public equally offensive. There is an utter lack of integrity in the way both sides have conducted themselves, and neither camp has any moral high ground, IMO.

Nic Jones' work never rose to the level of "national treasure" in my opinion, but I also realize that is a matter of taste. Sometimes we are haunted when we actually get the one thing we said we wanted. I think this is the case with the Jones camp. This latest development demonstrates to me loud and clear what the whole Jones/Bulmer saga has been about--and it isn't about the buying public getting to hear these "national treasures" at all. It is about money. Pure and simple.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: greg stephens
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 12:11 PM

I agree with SeanN, the heat generated by this topic makes it a bit difficult to grasp what is going on. I thought I'd got it figured that this Bulmer guy's crime was not issuing Nic Jones recordings. Now it seems to have turned into issuing Nic Jones recordings. And if his crime used to be not issuing Nic Jones, how was he making money out of it? You have to sell records before you start stealing musicians' royalties dont you? I'm bewildered.
Don't know if Nic Jones is a "national treasure" or not. What nation are we speaking about, I think there may be a confusion between different posters here..


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST,SeanN
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 12:24 PM

The "national treasure" thing came about from a post from Dick Gaughan in, I think, uk.music.folk some time ago. He said that the masters that Celtic Music owned were a national treasure, and that his behavior amounted to cultural theft. Mind, Dick Gaughan has also been ripped off by Celtic Music, so I'm not sure he is the best authority on the subject, as he too has an ax to grind.

So, to answer your question, the nation involved in the "national treasure" argument is Britain. While Dick Gaughan favors more sovereignty for Scotland, he still manages to be conveniently pro-British under these sorts of circumstances. The argument being, it was once thought better that the "national treasures" had been bought by a shady character (Bulmer) who was British, rather than being bought up by (God forbid) an American label like Rounder Records or some similar business interest that buys up old masters.

Ron is right. Musicians lose the rights to their songs because THEY SELL THEM FOR MONEY. I was watching a program about the Beach Boys the other night on the telly. It seems that the Wilson boy's father sold all the rights to their hit music of the 1960s for $700,000. That catalogue is now estimated to be worth $20 million or so.

Now that Mollie Music has generated the publicity to sell Nic's last two CDs by manufacturing the "poor disabled Nic Jones" controversy, the reissue by Bulmer can now threaten their sales. The fact is, Nic's disability never had anything to do with the facts in the circumstance. Nic lost the rights to his songs. It happens to a lot of musicians, many of whom fall on hard times every bit as bad as Nic's. The whole thing just leaves a bad taste.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST,Nerd
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 01:28 PM

People are missing an essential ingredient of Bulmer's conduct on this thread. He is not paying the royalties he owes to the artists when he does release these CDs. He is indeed being both illegal and immoral, and several of his companies have been shut down as a result, but he always rises from the ashes with a new company which is a thinly-disguised version of the old one(s).

Here is the situation as I understand it:

Nic sold the rights to his albums for money--and for an agreement that he would receive royalties.

Bulmer acquired the rights after the original owner (whom Nic trusted) went out of business (and then passed away).

Bulmer sat on the albums for years, falsely claiming that there was a vast stockpile of vinyl copies remaining, and that when that stockpile was exhausted he would reissue on CD.

So far, nothing done by either side is illegal, but you could argue that Bulmer was being pretty mean, which is the argument the so-called "Nic Jones Camp" generally makes.

BUT:

Eventually Bulmer issues cheap CD-R copies, labeled as though they were commercially pressed CDs, and pays no royalties to the artists.

NOW, he has both broken the law (not paying royalties) and engaged in questionable business practices (labeling homemade CD-Rs as CDs).

So in conclusion, Bulmer is in some of his dealings a mean, deceitful, lawbeaker and a swindler. I understand that he's not a monster, that he has friends in the folk world, etc. But at least in some cases he has done very bad things. As a result he faces constant lawsuits and is under several forms of legal censure--all of which is detailed in the Bulmer/Celtic Music threads.

Most people who know the situation think that it is partly because of these legal battles that he issues a CDR every now and then--he needs a quick infusion of cash to defend himself from a lawsuit. So if you buy these CDRs, you are probably adding money to his legal defense fund so that he can continue to avoid paying royalties.

That's the full argument. Whether the "Nic Jones camp" has been disingenuous is another argument, which I'm not prepared to enter. I guess I'd be identified, if not as a NJC member, at least as a sympathizer with their cause. While I would like to see all his albums reissued (which may not be Nic's position--I don't know), I'd like it to be on real factory-pressed CDs, with high-quality reproduction of booklets, etc, and legal so that Nic gets royalties.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST,pavane
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 01:58 PM

As I understand it, Nic would also like a proper commercial reissue, with royalties paid.

It is not even clear if these CD's were recorded from the original masters - it didn't sound like it on the radio.

As far as I am aware, failure to pay royalties is NOT illegal, but a breach of contract, a civil matter, and you have to sue in order to recover them. Remember that Bulmer's partner was a lawyer (struck-off,I believe).

Few folk artists can afford to take this action, as it is costly and may not succeed. That is what CM are relying on. Many singers are caught, but can make new recordings. Nic doesn't have that option.

Some folk singers have been reduced to bootlegging their own records to raise money.

I think Peter Bellamy was also affected, which may have been a factor in his tragic death.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST,Nerd
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 02:21 PM

I'd agree with Pavane, except on the legal definitions. Just because it's not criminal doesn't mean it's not illegal, does it? Isn't breaking a contract illegal? It is a civil matter, but surely a matter of civil LAW, as a contract is a legally-binding document. I think most of us would define a company refusing to pay wages as illegal, even though it's a civil matter of breach of contract rather than one of criminal law.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 02:32 PM

Nerd, that is a very good point if it is true that Bulmer is issuing CD-R's instead of replicated CD's. However that is a different issue as opposed to royalites and issuing of albums.

I am not a lawyer, so please correct me if I am wrong, but I belive payment of royalties would be based on a contract. IF an artist signs away the rights to their recording the contract could also include the right for royalities. I have no idea of what contract Nic Jones signed when he did the original deal, but it is a question that should be asked.

Bulmer may not be a wonderful person to do business with, but the sad fact remains that legally he owns the rights to these recordings and can do what he pleases. Does anyone know what kind of risk Bulmer took when he purchased the rights and how much he paid for them?

None of us like to see art treated in this manner but we are talking about a business deal.

I agree with Nerd that I would love to see the Nic Jones catalog issued on CD with nice booklets and Nic getting the royalties and recognition he deserves. However the business is what the business is. At least Nic has been able to issue two brilliant recordings on his own.

Ron


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 03:00 PM

To put all this in a bit of perspective, folk records like this dont sell very much in the UK.The amounts of money involved would probably be a great deal less than any of us would guess.Not that Nic Jones doesnt deserve whatever income he can get from royalties, but dont imagine there's a comfortable living wage at stake here, from royalties alone.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 03:00 PM

Pavane said:

"I think Peter Bellamy was also affected, which may have been a factor in his tragic death."

These kinds of hysterical statements are wholly baseless. A difficult business man Bulmer may be, but not he, or any other human being, has the kind of power to effect others being attributed to Bulmer in these Celtic Music urban legends.

This is why so many of us have no respect for the Jones camp. They claim Bulmer kicked a cripple when he was down, now are making spurious claims that he bears some responsibility for the death of another folk musician.

What the hell does that have to do with anything? Nic Jones sold his rights. No one here has seen a copy of the contract, and so doesn't know if he lost his right to royalties along with the rights to the songs.

Bulmer obviously has decided to cash in on Nic's current popularity, knowing a lot of people will buy his reissue, in addition to the Mollie Music releases. Prior to the upsurge in interest in Nic, he had no incentive to reissue Nic's material, as Nic was no longer in the business and so couldn't generate sales. That happens all the time, like Ron says--business is business.

OTOH (again), the Jones camp seem to think that Bulmer ought to run Celtic Music as a charity in Nic's case, and just turn over the masters, the rights and the royalties to him because he is no longer able to earn a living as a musician. Of course, that doesn't mean the same thing as he isn't able to earn a living, as we've seen with his resurrection in the music business through Mollie Music.

I don't guess he is getting rich from the release of the two albums, but I'm guessing that the albums are making him some money now. But that still doesn't seem to be enough to satisfy the Jones camp.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST,pavane
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 03:06 PM

The police can't arrest you for breach of contract, can they? I take illegal to mean contrary to criminal law.

As we don't have copies of the contracts, we don't know what rights people may have signed away, but royalties are unlikely to have been one of them!

I still don't understand what kind of business it is to sit on something worth money for so many years. Maybe that's why I'm not rich (look at Centre Point in London).

Over the years, these recordings could have made plenty of money, even if the royalties were paid.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST,pavane
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 03:16 PM

Guest I know that some of Peter Bellamy's recordings were 'bulmerised'. I don't think my statement was hysterical, and you have no provided no evidence that it was baseless.

I met Peter some while before his death, and also know his brother-in-law.

YOU are the one making unsupported claims. No-one has asked for charity, just what is due under a contract. Companies which do not honour contracts are usually run by dishonest people. Unfortunately those who have the deepest pockets tend to win in civil cases.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST,greg stephens cookieless
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 03:18 PM

as Nic Jones discussions are always bedevilled by GUESTS, with or without fictitious personas: I should point out that I made the posting about the amounts of money likely to be involved being pretty small. Didnt notice I wasnt registering as me: Mudcat doesnt seem to remember me for very long at a time today.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 03:20 PM

Pavane--what proof have you, exactly, that Bulmer is responsible for Peter Bellamy's death?


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 03:27 PM

What people should notice is that the shit-stirring in Nic Jones threads is done purely and simply for fun,not to promote a particular viewpoint. A little basic linguistic analysis on related threads will show that one or more persons invariably raise the temperature of the discussion by posting on different sides under different names(or no names).Read and admire the skill, but dont take the arguments seriously. You will notice now how QUEST is skifully goading GUEST Pavane (who is genuinely arguing, but GUEST isnt).


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST,SeanN
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 03:27 PM

Actually Pavane, the contract issue is what is most germane to this discussion. The fact is, Nic Jones sold his rights. Period. End of discussion.

Suggesting that someone other than Peter Bellamy is responsible for his own suicide is a ghastly awful and twisted thing to suggest. Grow up.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST,pavane
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 03:48 PM

I am well aware of the 'goading' of the guest, which I am using for my own purposes (to keep this thread going).

SeanN, are you familiar with the publishing business? As in most fields, people sign contracts which give both sides rights. You don't get published unless you do.

Have you seen a copy of the contact in question? Then don't assume its contents. Recording contracts provide for the artist to receive royalties. Signing one does NOT sign away all your rights, it is there to protect them.

A contract is an agreement between parties as to what rights each has. For one party to renege on this is called 'breach of contract'. Contracts, and the ability to enforce them, are essential to business and society.

(Of course, when the Government doesn't keep its word, that is something different - isn't it?)


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 03:49 PM

There is one thing that just hit me. How much money do you think we are talking about? Maybe it is different in Great Britian, but I don't see many folk musicians driving fancy cars or living in mansions here in the U.S. We aren't talking Britney Spears or Madonna royalties. Folk music is not the field to get rich in - promoter or artist.

Even if Bulmer paid Nic Jones royalties, I would be amazed if the numbers amounted to much.

I could be completely wrong about this in the case of Nic Jones, but here in the U.S. "big" selling CD's might mean 20,000 copies. Re-issues might sell significantly less. So what would royalities be- a couple of thousand at most? Granted in Nic's case that could pay some bills, but the point I'm trying to get at is that nobody is getting rich with this music. Nic Jones and David Bulmer are not in the same league as Michael Jackson and Tommy Motolla.

Ron


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 03:54 PM

Hmmmm. Which greg stephens is behind the curtains a numbr of greg stephens seem to be using in this thread--anonymous GUEST, GUEST,greg stephens, GUEST,greg stephens cookieless, or member greg stephens?

Talk about shit stirring.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 04:02 PM

Pavane, not all of us are idiots. Some of us are actually quite familiar with the UK folk music business, know the facts about Nic Jones & his sale of his rights and royalties. His story is oft repeated as a morality tale on what not to do when approached by business men offering too good to be true deals. There are many sad tales of folk musicians ripping themselves off in this way in an effort to get quick cash. Legend has it some pawn their instruments, live off their girlfriends/wives, and sell their blood, too.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 04:27 PM

Ron O: a couple of grand was my ball park estimate as well...there are posibly big principles at stake here, but tiny bucks.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST,SeanN
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 04:35 PM

I'm curious greg--what are the big principles you think might be at stake?

As to the money--it doesn't take much of it to get people fighting over it, especially among those who don't have a lot of it.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 04:41 PM

I only put "possibly", SeanN.(well actually I put posibly). The principles seem to be big enough to stir a lot of people up, some genuinely.I think they've been pretty well rehearsed already, and I have no personal knowledge to add anything relevant. My only contributions that I think are of any validity are (a) the amount of money involved is probably bugger all (2) 90% of the "arguing" is artificially generated.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 04:48 PM

You are right Greg, there are principles at stake and probably is more important than the money. The only reason I brought it up was to put it in perspective. It isn't fair to give a perception that either party is getting rich off of these recordings in this day and age. Record companies as a whole are suffering. It isn't easy to re-issue an artists work, no matter how good it might be. The record company has to make a relatively significant investment in terms of production of the project which includes printing, manufacturing, distribution, etc. It is rare to hear people complain that a record company loses money when they re-issue a CD of a 1930's jug band. However if the surviving members of that jug band aren't receiving monthly royalty checks people cry that the artist is getting ripped off.

Please don't think that I'm not supporting the artist by my above statement. I do feel that artists need better contracts and opportunities, but I also feel that it is a two way street.

Ron


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: Harry Basnett
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 04:53 PM

I think in these discussions we tend to forget other artists whose material has been "lost"...examples being the late Tony Rose, Pete and Chris Coe, Dave and Toni Arthur as well as recordings by traditional singers such as George Dunn...I don't know Mr. Bulmer but as he is a folk musician himself I cannot understand his reluctance to release these recordings to everyones satisfaction...including his own.

All the best..............Harry Basnett.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST,SeanN
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 04:54 PM

Thanks for the response greg, but you are still invoking "the principles" without enumerating them. I really am curious as to what you think they are, as you aren't expressing any allegiance with those on either side of the argument. Which is quite skillful on your part, of course, and you are to be complimented for it! I'm genuinely interested in what someone who claims neutrality on this subject, sees as the main principles at stake. Some people involved in these discussions seem to be clawing their way to a place they believe is the moral high ground, only to find themselves sinking in quick sand. Your remark about principles piqued my interest. Of course, you are under no obligation to satisfy my curiousity. I'm just hoping you will humor me.

I make no claim of being neutral here--I have been disgusted with both sides (Jones and Bulmer) for quite some time now. Do my strong sentiments of disgust for both sides make me a member of that same Great Center you seem to be trying to occupy as well? ;-)


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 04:54 PM

I brought a record out in the 70's that was modestly influential.It's been described as a collectors item. Fantastic reviews, loads of people talked aboutit, recorded tunes off it, and it helped start a lot of interest in NW English music. It sold perhaps 400 copies. It's about to be reissued on CD. I'll be more than happy if it sells as many again. Look out for the stretch limo.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 04:59 PM

Harry, I don't know David Bulmer or how deeps his pockets are, but issuing CD's cost $$ or perhaps ££ £ is more appropriate in this discussion. There are so many recordings that I wish were available on CD but the reality is the market is very, very, very small.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 05:01 PM

honestly, Sean I have no principles to add that havent been much better expressed. if you want my personal opinion on the rights and wrongs of the case: i dont know the facts, but if what thegeneral flow of what is said is true: Bulmer should have given the whole package to Nic Jones to exploit as best he could. Nic's had big troubles. The rights might have helped him a bit,and their loss wouldnt have done Bulmer much harm. And he could always have reserved a wee slice for himself.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 05:01 PM

Greg,

Would that be 'Beggar Boy of the North'?

Sorry for the thread drift, but do tell us the re-release info, please


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 05:03 PM

Would that be the Celtic Music stretch limo, or the Mollie Music stretch limo? ;-)

Harry, right you are about the reissue of the albums. The thing is, as Ron has pointed out, it does take money to reissue albums. Apparently, Mr. Bulmer is sitting on several out of business UK record label catalogues, with many albums no longer available to the buying public.

As reissuing old folk albums it is not a lucrative business, it does beg the question--why tell people not to buy one of the most sought after of the bunch when it finally gets reissued, especially when you've been whingeing around about wanting it to be reissued in the first place?


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 05:06 PM

My God, a GUEST who knows about the better things in life. Yes I was talking about the Beggar Boy....you see, everyone, people do exist who've heard of it. I haven't got a date yet, we're just talking about it: got to run it past my American lawyers to check the world rights situation, you know the sort of thing. I would hope within 3 months.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST,SeanN
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 05:40 PM

Thanks again for your reply greg. I have to admit, the "bigger principles" have me baffled. I just don't see any "bigger principles" at stake than musicians learning not to sell their rights without consulting a good lawyer.

As to your suggestion that Mr. Bulmer be charitable and just give Nic the masters and rights for his catalog so Nic could put out the "priceless" reissues himself--that sort of reasoning goes a bit too far the other side of sensibility and fairness, IMO. Mr. Bulmer's business interest in hanging on to the masters and rights to the back catalogues he invested in when no one would have anything to do with them, is just as legitimate as Nic's desire to have the masters and rights to music he himself sold for cash of his own free will.

Sometimes it really does pay to let bygones be bygones, and let the sleeping dogs lie, as they say.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST,SeanN
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 05:43 PM

And greg--you should always check with a good American lawyer--it appears all the British solicitors are in bed with the Bulmers of the world.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST,Lo and Behold
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 09:40 PM

Just passing through here, and what do I find but the same sad misinformation being spouted as fact. Again. As always seems to happen anywhere in cyberspace the British folk congregate.

My guess is that this thread started as a knock-on effect of the one which ran until a couple of days ago in uk.music.folk. Same misinformation, presented in much thed same way as we've seen it here.

As has been mentioned in threads here before, the further from England you get, the less rancorous people are about Celtic Music and the less interested they are in the Bulmer/Jones debate. I notice but two posts on this Jones reissue in rec.music.folk--one to stir the pot by Pete Coe, claiming the CD was probably a substandard CDR (it isn't, but is a good quality CD reissue). And a follow up by one Pat Hurley of Dublin, who presents a very different picture of Celtic Music and the CD in question.

So is uk.music.folk's Pete Coe the source of this wrong information being presented as fact in Mudcat?

Nah--I'm sure it is just one of those public relations coincidences, where the Jones camp dutifully marches on in it's jihad against Celtic Music.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST,Nerd
Date: 17 Jul 02 - 01:15 AM

Thanks for sharing, Lo And Behold. I'll take a gander at the new Jones reissue when I see it, but I have my doubts. What I do know is, I have copies of a Ray Fisher reissue and a Robin and Barry Dransfield reissue, both on Celtic Music, both of which are CDRs but not labeled as such. The disc is printed and packaged as a CD, no cheap paper labels, etc, but the record expert who gave them to me analyzed them and told me they were CDRs. So are you quite sure it's a good quality CD reissue? Your home CD player won't tell you, so how did you find out?

Pavane,

Not to split hairs, but if a company "illegally" dumps toxic waste near my house, they can be sued but generally no one will go to jail. This does not mean their actions are legal. Breaking a contract is no more legal--it's just a violation of civil codes rather than criminal ones.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 17 Jul 02 - 01:33 AM

Welcome Lo and Behold, always nice to greet a first time poster...under that name at least. Yet somehow the style seems strangely familiar.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: Fossil
Date: 17 Jul 02 - 05:01 AM

By a strange quirk o' fate, I had "In search of ..." on the player when I started this Mudcat session. I admit to being a Nic Jones fan - have been for years. In amongst all this mudslinging by "guests" of various shapes and sizes, let's not forget the issues which led to this discussion.

Nic Jones is a great musician and a singer. Until his accident, now so many years ago, he was making a living playing and singing. After the accident, he was hospitalised and (apart from a few recent for-fun things), has never worked since. What exists on his back catalogue of recordings represented a resource which could have done a lot to mitigate his family circumstances during the long years of his recovery. The actions of Dave Bulmer and Celtic Music - deliberately undertaken, it seems - deprived Nic of income and the folk world of the opportunity to hear his music. That's the issue. That's the reason for the "jihad". Don't let all this legalistic quibbling distract readers from the basic issues.

Don't buy the reissues. Content yourself with the Jones/Mollie Music issues, which are brilliant. For the rest of it, wait until Bulmer and his sorry crew get their comeuppance and hope that whoever takes over the catalogue does the decent thing.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: Harry Basnett
Date: 17 Jul 02 - 01:46 PM

As a matter of interest cany anyone provide a comprehensive list of the Trailer/Leader, etc., recordings so we may know the full extent of exactly what is at issue here?

Harry Basnett.


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: RolyH
Date: 17 Jul 02 - 03:48 PM

Off the top of me head artists who have "Bulmer" recordings

Nic Jones<
Tony Rose
Andrew Cronshaw
Boys of the Lough
The Taveners
Dick Gaughan
Robin and Barry Dransfield
Mike and Lal Waterson
Roy Bailey
Peter Bellamy
Dave Burland
Ray Fisher
Vin Garbutt
Roger Nicholson Billy Pigg
Charlie Wills
The Coleman Family
Alistair Anderson
THe High Level Ranters
Colin Ross
"Unto Brigg Fair"

Plus a few more that dont come to mind at the moment(feel free to add)


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: Ralphie
Date: 17 Jul 02 - 04:15 PM

Pete and Chris Coe (at least 2 albums, if not all three)

Ralphie


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Subject: RE: Help: nic jones reissue
From: Ralphie
Date: 17 Jul 02 - 04:16 PM

Oh...and Bandoggs of course


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