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Feedback please
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Subject: Lyr Add: You Wouldn't Know It to Look at Me^^ From: Barry Finn Date: 08 May 98 - 10:21 PM I've heard (& it's very true) that having a special needs child is in a sense, like planing all your life to move to a tropical paradise, you've been reading about all your life to find out more, you tell everyone how great this is going to be, your excited to the max, you step on the airplane bringing along your whole world, the plane lands, you get out with a huge smile, you're shocked, you landed in Alaska & was told this where you'll be living from now on, it's a great place, the scenery is beautiful & everyone's so nice, it's not a bad place, it's just not what you've planed. Any way here's the song to the tune of "I'm Awkward As A New Chum", I'll never be able to perform it, I can't even get through reading it to my wife, so I'm looking here for a response, Thanks.
You're not listening to me, are you deaf in both ears
Chorus
Well, school is a tourture, the teasting won't quit
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Subject: RE: Feedback please From: murray@mpce.mq.edu.au Date: 09 May 98 - 06:00 AM Barry, It is hard to give constructive criticism without a frame of reference--that is, what you want to do with it. I don't know the tune you are using so let me just say the lyrics are very powerful and moving. It is good the way you have taken the point of view of the child. Very little literature about the subject does that; but, of course that is part of the point you are making. I think you have created something significant with the words, anyway. Murray |
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Subject: RE: Feedback please From: Ireland O'Reilly Date: 09 May 98 - 07:37 AM murray: I beg to differ. there is quite a bit of good children's literature that takes the point of view of the disabled child, a lot of it by disabled authors, and quite a bit of it very good. maybe as a disabled person, I'm biased on this subject, but as an english scholar i hope that i am not. see, for just two fine examples, books by Jean Little and Sheila Hocken. Barry: I'm not certain of the tune you are using for this song, but as a poem, it is incredibly powerful, not to mention truthful. I don't want to get into "true confessions" but this seems very close to my own school-age experience. sometimes, as a disabled adult "integrated" into society, i and my peers face the same things today. sometimes the only true comfort you find as a disabled person, is from your peers - people who share your "condition" and who know what your struggles are. It is sad, but true, that family - although they love you - do not fully understand you, and cannot fully provide for your emotional needs. This is nothing against parents of disabled children. Mine were very loving, caring and understanding. it's just that abled people, through no fault of their own, cannot possibly have insight into the heart and mind of a disabled person. you have to live it, to fully understand it. But, back to your song... I don't think i have ever heard a song about disabled children that is so accurate. there is one REALLY bad song done by John Allen Cameron about blind people, and Stompin' Tom has one about wheelchair users. the stompin' tom one is really powerful, too, and is from the point of view of the child. can't remember the name of Tom's song right offhand, but if i do, i'll post it, so you might find it and have a listen. in your song, the stanza that really got to my heart's core was: The kids all scorn & laugh at me, I don't have a friend You should feel my heart break, I wonder when this will end The mistreatment & abuse I take, it should be a crime But I'm told to ignore it, it happens all of the time. This is absolutely, terribly, all too real. Like murray, it is hard to give criticism w/out knowing what this song will be used for. I could give my "english lit. expert" critcism of the poem itself, but obviously, since this is a song, and the speaker is a child, grammar, syntax, tone, diction, imagery and meter aren't really an issue. it's teh messge that's important, here. And I think you are telling a very important message w/this song, and telling it well. regards, Ireland O'Reilly |
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Subject: RE: Feedback please From: Helen Date: 09 May 98 - 08:03 AM Hi all Firstly, the tune is PRETTY POLLY PERKINS OF PADDINGTON GREEN, and the tune and lyrics are in the DT database, if you search for [Polly Perkins] The song that Barry referred to is called: One of the Has-beens It's an Australian shearing song, and is from the point of view of an old man who used to be the best shearer in the sheds, i.e. the ringer, but now he is old and has lost most of his shearing prowess. So, it's an appropriate tune to use for Barry's song, I think. I have a friend, a single Mum, who has a 6 year old son with special needs - intellectual challenges which originate from physiological problems, which the specialists say *could* be genetically based, but they really don't know. I can relate to the words Barry has written because it's difficult to say at this stage what sort of life this kid is going to have when he gets older. It's difficult to know what his capabilities will be, and what his *understanding* of his abilities and differences will be. He is a sunny, happy child a lot of the time, but not all the time, but it is a strain for him, his Mum, and his teachers trying to find the best ways to teach him what he needs to know in his daily life. It's a strain on his Mum just keeping up with the visits to the specialists, and especially keeping her balance and cool in negotiating with the professionals and teachers just to give him a fair go in life. When/if you record this song I'd like to get a copy of it and give it to them both, so please keep us posted if you do record it. Helen One of the Has-beens
I'm one of the has beens a shearer I mean
Notes Printed in Stewart and Keesing Old Bush Songs with the note: "From Mrs G.L.Ginns, of Merrylands, NSW". (Written by Robert Stewart) From the singing of A.L.Lloyd, who writes on the notes for Across the Western Plains that he heard it in Cowra, NSW when he was working there in the 1920's. Tune 'Pretty Polly Perkins' |
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Subject: RE: Feedback please From: steve t Date: 10 May 98 - 06:32 AM I couldn't write a good song to save my life, but here are a few points to consider: I don't know what O.C. is. It took me about 10 seconds to figure out A.D.D. These would need to be mentioned in an intro. I love that first verse -- and though initially I thought the adult was speaking, upon re-reading, I think, hmmm, maybe the child IS thinking this AT the adult who is busy ignoring the things the child is struggling to say and that the adult doesn't understand. Alternately, could you end the song with a modified first verse echoing the child's frustration with an adult who doesn't seem to be listening? (though this would clash with the "but I won't hold it against you") Or you could just repeat the first verse unaltered. I wonder if six choruses are a good idea or would a two verse, chorus, pattern work? There are three "alls" in All the love & affection, you hear about all the time I only hear people yell at me, when all I ask is where's mine? The line that goes "you may worst off than me" might need changing to "may be worse off..." It's a difficult idea for most folkies to accept the idea that parents might not even TRY to comfort a child who disappointed them -- when I first read this I thought, Barry's got that line wrong -- it suggests the parents don't comfort the child. I thought the verse should read "nobody can comfort me..." Then I realized the parents DIDN'T try to comfort the child. Tough concept. Ditto for the idea that ALL the aunts and uncles blamed the parents. Great song. I can imagine it in a song circle. Six choruses would work in a song circle. A very tough song to follow. |
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Subject: RE: Feedback please From: murray@mpce.mq.edu.au Date: 10 May 98 - 07:27 AM Actually, Ireland, I wasn't thinking of childrens' literature, I suppose because it is a long time since I was a child and I have none. I was thinking of the literature (in a general sense) that we adults usually see in magazines, newspapers, etc, which takes the point of view of the special needs child as being the problems, rather as an individual who may have problems. That is what impressed me about Barry's approach. Murray |
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Subject: RE: Feedback please From: Barry Finn Date: 10 May 98 - 04:31 PM Thanks Murry, as Helen pointed out, it's tune is also (more) known as "One Of The Has-Beens" & in the DT, if that helps. The chorus melody repeats itself, my chorus is twice as long as the "Has-Beens". As to what I planed on doing with this, not a clue, I only wanted to express myself. Thanks Ireland O'Reilly, I'm in the process of straighting it out (tense,grammer, perspective & etc). I would long for any comments from a scholor of English, probaly my worse (sp. correctly) subject at the Hard Knocks Academy. My son was diagnosed with Tourette's a few years ago, which lead to a different neurological diagnosis for myself, although completely unaware it explained alot. Being recently in a wheelchair for 6 months, gave me an insite into the worlds of the invisible & visibly impaired. The veiw here is from a child of any impairment but mostly from son's, as I'm seeing his world through his eyes. Those with O.C.D. (obsessive Compulsive Disorder, sorry about the missing D above), Manic Depression, A.D.D., Tourette's, Anxiety-Panic Disorder, Post-Trama, or any other neurological or hidden handicap, are frequently misdiagnosed or brushed off suspiciously with the term psyco-babble or criminals trying to take advantage of one system or another. Helen, thanks for pointing out it's "One Of The Has-Beens" it seems I did know that years ago, but one of the guys I sing with recorded it as "Awkward As A New Chum" & I was singing this to myself, the line 'But you may not believe me, for I can't do it now' kept gnawing at me when I began to bring that line to the thoughts of impairments (I was also thinking of my son), the use of the tune was intentional. I don't know if I can even sing it, never mind record it, I can't even get though reading it to my wife. I will copywrite (when I figure out how) it, but you're more welcome to use it when it's finished, with credit. I'll e-mail it to you if you'd like. Again, thanks all for your responses. Barry Finn |
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Subject: RE: Feedback please From: BAZ Date: 10 May 98 - 05:43 PM Barry Thanks for having the courage to post this. I currently work with two young boys who are special needs children, my wife works full time with a young teenager with special needs and we have two more that come to our junior church. This poem or song of yours call it what you will will be printed large on our pinboard so that we see it each day as we leave home. It will remind us when we lose patience or become frustrated of the child's needs ot our own. This may not have been your intention but a big thank you anyway. Regards Baz. |
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Subject: RE: Feedback please From: Animaterra Date: 10 May 98 - 07:13 PM As the mom of a son with Asperger syndome (related to autism) I was very moved by the poem/song, though I agree that it may be a little long. I don't know the tune either and would love to hear this. You speak for many children and parents of "SPED" kids. Thanks! Do you know, "I'm a Little Cookie" by Larry Penn? It's in Rise Up Singing (p. 239). Some love it, some hate it, but it's also from the child's point of view, and has a gentle humor which we all so need!! |
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Subject: RE: Feedback please From: Cuilionn Date: 11 May 98 - 01:36 AM Thank you for offering folks the chance to step closer to such a clearly heartfelt composition. I concur with much of what's already been said...one thought that came to mind was that slightly rough spots in the song can do two things: they can draw people's attention (either negatively or positively) and they can also lend authenticity to the child-narrator's struggle with communication. I'm a grad student with A.D.D. myself, and worked as my (brilliant, non-verbal, autistic) sister's aide for a number of years. While I don't want this to be some maudlin diatribe or testimonial, I will say that my work with my sister has touched great depths of pain and joy. She's 20 yrs old, and most people still treat her as an infant or an animal simply because she can't communicate "normally." With the help of adaptive computer equipment, she has revealed herself as a stunningly good poet. Her favorite slogan is "not being able to talk doesn't mean you have nothing to say." Sorry...too wordy, I know, but what I really mean to say is that your piece of work--even "unsung" in its current printed form--is something all of us NEED. It opens the way, gracefully, to dialogue. It gives folks a framework of reference that allows them to feel less awkward; an entry point for addressing the underlying issues and "isms." Thanks. A h-uile beannachd leibh (every blessing go with you) --Ciulionn |
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Subject: RE: Feedback please From: Jon W. Date: 11 May 98 - 12:13 PM My aunt gave birth to a baby girl with Down's Syndrome in the late 50's. In those days, the conventional wisdom was "put her in an institution, she'll never be anything more than a vegetable, she'll die in a few months anyway." They took her home, loved her, raised her, taught her all they could. They were instrumental in getting programs for the handicapped started in their part of Washington state. Her name was Diane. She lived into her 30's, and was able to talk, read, play, feel, and return all the love anyone ever gave her twice over. She had a great talent for remembering people's names, faces, and their relationship to her. Not to say that her life was all a bed of roses--she had terrible frustration with her own limitations (and the limitations of those attempting to understand her) and severe health problems--but she was a blessing to her family, immediate as well as extended. I guess what I'm trying to say is first, there is no life that is not worth living; and second, progress is being made, both medically and socially. So don't despair, keep fighting for your rights and those of your son. Jon W. |
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Subject: RE: Feedback please From: Sheye Date: 11 May 98 - 01:08 PM Barry: I'm requesting permission to copy this material and pass it to the special education department here. - I'm a finance coordinator for a school division. The intention is to provide teaching assistants with a copy. Please reply. It's always good to give a gentle reminder of the darkness others feel, for whatever reason. It makes us take a step back and remember to be kind, remember to be human. My uncle has Tourette's. He suffered those crueties as a child and to this day has never returned to the town he grew up in. Thank you so much for sharing. Sheye |
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Subject: RE: Feedback please From: murray@mpce.mq.edu.au Date: 11 May 98 - 08:38 PM Barry, Since you are giving blanket permission to use the song with permission, why don't you post the final version here. I don't think I will gain the proficiency to perform professionally in this lifetime, but I would like to see the final result. Murray |
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Subject: RE: Feedback please From: steve t Date: 11 May 98 - 09:28 PM Murray, there's a heck of a gap between not performing and performing professionally. I do hope you're somewhere in between. It's so good to share music with others, and there are a LOT of people who aren't micro-focused on the technical and artistic merit of songs that are shared.
Again, great song Barry. I can't help thinking some teachers might sing: Well, school is a tourture, the teasting won't quit "I could be mildly autistic or react compulsively"? |
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Subject: RE: Feedback please From: Susan from California Date: 12 May 98 - 10:42 AM Barry, I have a 35-year-old brother w/Down Syndrome and I as a kid I was teased because his differences were so visible. I never fully considered the perspective of a child who looked "...as cute as all the other kids" but who "At times I can't work things out". Your words were very, very powerful. If you can sing it it would be great, but I bet some of your talented friends on mudcat will "cover" it for you if you allow them to. |
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Subject: Lyr Add: YOU WOULDN'T KNOW IT TO LOOK AT ME^^ From: Barry Finn Date: 12 May 98 - 06:40 PM Thank you all for your responses, especially those who, like myself are touched (smile), or have been touched directly by others, the comments, complements & critizism coming from you are very heart warming & valuable. I went to a rehearsal last night and tried it out in it's glossed over form, I was able to go through it without flubbing it, so I guess I'll be able to sing it. One of my singing partners is a father to a special needs adult & both are gifted & accomplished songwriters, both were as positive about the song as everyone here has been, thanks. I did give blanket permission to use it, I only hope for credit, at some point I would like to record it, so I would like to be asked first if someone wants to vinylize it. "You Wouldn't Know It To Look At Me" (tune; traditional Australian, "One Of The Has-Beens, words; Barry Finn)
"You're not listening to me are you deaf in both ears
Chorus
Well, school is a torture, the teasing won't quit
The kids scorn & laugh at me, I don't have a friend
I never feel comfort, no shoulder, no hug Thank you everyone "& a merry christmas to everyone, everywhere" , Tiny Tim. Please continue to send comments if you'd like, nothing's cast in stone. Barry |
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Subject: RE: Feedback please From: GUEST,GUESS Date: 29 Jan 00 - 11:52 PM I had the fortune of hearing Barry Finn sing this at Allison's (Animaterra) sendoff for Bill Sables. What a treat to hear this sung by the author! I had to refresh this thread. Good words but they hardly do justice without a powerfully delivered song. Lucius (AKA Bob Jovi) P.S. It was a wonderful way to spend a Saturday evening. Thanks to Allison for opening her house and to Bill and Lorna for popping by.
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Subject: RE: Feedback please From: Lady McMoo Date: 30 Jan 00 - 06:21 PM Barry, I heard you do this when I was over in Boston from Europe last November (don't 'Catters just pop up everywhere!), sitting anonymously (I wasn't well at all that day and not at all up to performing) at the back of the Singers' session marveling at the quality of singers and songs on offer. I thought it was a powerful and moving song. All the very best to you, mcmoo |
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Subject: RE: Feedback please From: GUEST,Barry Finn (on lunch break) Date: 31 Jan 00 - 01:20 PM Hi mcmoo. Thanks for the nice mention. Glad you liked the session. I do remember you, we asked if you'd like to sing & as you were leaving we mentioned to come back again, to which you replyed you were just over & were headed back, have I got you right? Wished you had made yourself know, hopefully you'll be back for a next time. Barry |
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Subject: RE: Feedback please From: Peg Date: 31 Jan 00 - 01:37 PM hi; I also heard Barry sing this once (or a version therof), at the folk singers' club in Boston...at the time I did not know that, a) Barry had writen the lyrics, or that b) it was about his son. He mentioned a few weeks ago this was the case. I do remember hearing the song at the time however and thinking it was very charming, sweet and funny (especially the rhyme scheme in places). You go, Barry! It is a true act of love and courage to put this out there... and your wonderful voice gives it much added gusto and vitality... peg |
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Subject: RE: Feedback please From: Bert Date: 31 Jan 00 - 01:55 PM Powerful song, and yes, hearing Barry singing it is an unforgettable experience. |
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Subject: RE: Feedback please From: AllisonA(Animaterra) Date: 31 Jan 00 - 02:21 PM And let me add that it was a thrill having Barry sing it in his powerful voice in my own living room. His son and mine both have special needs, both got on swimmingly that evening and once again it confirmed for me that the Mudcat is a real community and a great one, with all its ups and downs! I'm looking forward to hearing Barry at NEFFA! |
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Subject: RE: Feedback please From: Jacob B Date: 31 Jan 00 - 05:04 PM The longer I'm involved with special needs issues, the more people I know who tell me that they have special needs kids, and the more I wonder whether there is any such thing as normality. Perhaps everyone has an individual learning style, and the educational system is just now in the early stages of learning how to recognize these differences, and to provide each person with what they need to learn. Lucius, thank you for reviving this thread. Barry, I'll be posting the song to a discussion list for parents of gifted children with special needs. I won't try to critique it, I'll just tell you how much I appreciate it. As I see it, my daughter's problem is that she is trying to learn new things that are very difficult for her and being overwhelmed by frustration - and that's exactly them problem my wife and I have when we try to learn how to deal well with her. Barry, Allison: how old are your kids? My Asperger's daughter is nine and a half. Jacob |
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Subject: RE: Feedback please From: Barry Finn Date: 31 Jan 00 - 11:21 PM Hi Jacob, my son is 10 & Alison's is 14. Jacob I'd be tickled for you to post this song (I only ask to have credit given), I know you'll be at NEFFA, if you'd like to tape it, I'd be more than happy to sing it for you. Thanks for your comments & support. Barry |
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Subject: RE: Feedback please From: AllisonA(Animaterra) Date: 01 Feb 00 - 10:02 AM Jacob, my son has Asperger's as well. Feel free to send me a personal message so we can share info, stories, etc. Dylan is in the 8 th grade and recently scored 99's in a national standardized test. I'll be at NEFFA too- we should try to hook up! |
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