Martin Guitars again!

Subject: Martin Guitars again!
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 21 Jul 02 - 12:15 PM

Got a gift of a new Martin DM which I had tried in a store but could not buy - smae old story -

Later it was presented to me....ummmmm embarrased but in love already

Strange to say I don't normaly select Martins to try but this one - made of Plywood - nailed me to the floor!. I was not paying any attention to what I was trying but having my helper pass boxes to me to try.

Now I have to figure out how to get my fingers to play and not make them sore! Is this a Martin thing or is it me?

Other strange things I don't understand about this make- where or where is the end pin? I mmmean the button on back to attach the shoulder strap to?

Comaparing things - I once had on loan a D 28 which a friend had me play on his gigs - it cost several thousands dollars. I was not that impressed with that in fact I dreaded it since the response was so off the beat. It would not ring for me....

But this Martin DM reminds me of a Washurn repro which I tried many years ago, it kicks butt! At the time I could not afford that one either. Playing it against my all time favorite working box, a Fender Jumbo, it has all the charm three times the volume and is far lighter so easier over a long session.

No papers with it either - is that strange or just an error?

Subject: RE: BS: Martin Guitars again!
From: Jeri
Date: 21 Jul 02 - 12:39 PM

The finger thing: Maybe the action's higher than it is on whatever guitar you've been playing up until now? Maybe it's just because you're playing more than you were and have thin calluses?

I think the end pins might come separately. I would have had to buy one, but I got the display model and they'd stuck an end pin in it. I'd think if it were new, it would have come with papers.

I don't know why some guitars sound better when their made exactly the same way as others. Maybe it just comes down to details like the grain of the wood or something. I have a relatively cheap Guild that I think sounds better than some guitars that cost people a couple thousand dollars.

Subject: RE: BS: Martin Guitars again!
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 21 Jul 02 - 12:52 PM

Odd...I have bought/been given two guitars that were missing endpins. I suspect that they just don't shove them in hard enough at the factories and they come out in transit. The music store employees, being a bunch of stoners, don't realize it. Go back and get one. And get your warranty papers too.

Bruce

Subject: RE: BS: Martin Guitars again!
From: GUEST,Genie
Date: 21 Jul 02 - 01:40 PM

Congratulations, sorefingers! I know what you mean.

I was given a Martin 00018 back in 1960 -- my first guitar -- and I didn't know at the time what a special gift it was. It was 5 years old, and I played it every chance I got, but I didn't have other guitars to compare it with. I got terrible blisters, until I switched to lighter strings. (I now use extra lights, but even light gauge strings are a big help over medium or heavy guage, when it comes to tender fingers.)

A couple of years after I got that guitar, folks started raving about it ("You've got a MARTIN!? Drool, drool.") and trying to buy it from me. Since then, I've tried and owned a lot of different guitars, but I've never found another one with action as fluid as this one or that stays in tune as well -- unless it's another Martin. There may be other great guitar makes out there, but I'm sold on old C. F. Martin.

Genie

Subject: RE: BS: Martin Guitars again!
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Jul 02 - 01:45 PM

Last night I went to a Frank Solivan concert (if you get a chance to hear him, grab it!) and his 16-year old girl cousin flatpicked the bejesus out of a 1934 00. Great heart, tone, clarity. There's just no mistaking a Martin...

Subject: RE: BS: Martin Guitars again!
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 21 Jul 02 - 02:02 PM

Thank you for the help and suggestions! It looks as if the endpin thing is fairly common - apparently the makers put them in an envelope in the packing but this instrument was on display where it hung on a rack so the pin and packing were not there.

Anyway on Monday I am assured that the pin will be found in the back or somewhere they unpack display stuff. It seems that if you find a good sounding guitar in the display area then there may be things not there that would be if it was in another part of the store. I hope this is not confusing...

About different instruments by the same maker; often I find that several models will sound ummm fair to impressive but occasionaly on trying one - does not have to be a new one! - it will sound outstanding.

Well this one is such a box. In fact many a time I would try boxes in the stores and cringe because I could not buy it. A great example I recall was an 'Everett' - hope I spelled that right.

Other thing for me at least is that I used dread Martins in the hands of learners near to me in jams since they would drown me out with bad playing. Now I have to learn to play lightly all the time so as not to be a pain in the neck for others at jams.

This box is very very loud- my mussus, also plays things, says it sounds like it has an amplifier inside of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Martin Guitars again!
From: Midchuck
Date: 21 Jul 02 - 02:18 PM

Many Martins - very likely the majority - come from the factory with the nut slots cut too high. You'd be amazed at the difference if you have a good luthier do a setup. If other guitars don't hurt your fingers, but this does, you should definitely have it done.

If you have bone nut and saddle put in while he's doing it, you can make it even more powerful - if you want to.

If the thing was new from the dealer, you should make a determined effort to find the paperwork and send it in, at least if you're in the US. You want that lifetime warranty.

Other thing for me at least is that I used dread Martins in the hands of learners near to me in jams since they would drown me out with bad playing. Now I have to learn to play lightly all the time so as not to be a pain in the neck for others at jams.

For heaven's sake, why? Sweet revenge! (If you have to force yourself to play lightly with a Martin, don't ever get a Collings!)

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: Martin Guitars again!
From: Genie
Date: 21 Jul 02 - 02:23 PM

Midchuck, don't the new Martins already come with bone nuts and saddles? The old ones did.

I do recommend the Luthier set-up, for any guitar you have where the action seems too high.

Genie

Subject: RE: BS: Martin Guitars again!
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 21 Jul 02 - 03:43 PM

Genie

According to Elderly Instruments' catalog, "Most new Martin guitars come with a Corian nut and a Micarta sadlle". These are just two different plastics. Only the vintage re-issue and limited edition series come with real bone (since the originals that they are copies of had bone). They must have changed sometime in the 80's as my '74 D-35 (sorely missed) definitely had real bone and my '92 DC-28 definitely does not.

Bruce

Subject: RE: BS: Martin Guitars again!
From: kendall
Date: 21 Jul 02 - 04:08 PM

I had a surprise this weekend; I was field picking at a bluegrass festival, and, there is a well known guitar collector who happened by. He played my Taylor, looked up in surprise, and announced, "This is as loud as my D 45 Martin special model for which I payed $12,000" ( I didn't have the heart to tell him, that in my opinion, it sounded just as good too!

Subject: RE: BS: Martin Guitars again!
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 21 Jul 02 - 04:43 PM

Re Makes

Agreed it makes little difference which brand of Guitar excels, only one box out of dozens would be that good anyway - so in my case it could have been any make since I had a helper select the demos from the display. Makes sense where the material - wood - can be so inconsistent in quality.

I recall, way back, buying an Aria and later selling it for far more than I paid. It was a rinky dink ragtime Guitar and it hopped so well I still often regret selling it, again selected from dozens and took several weeks to decide which I wanted; also in this case I remember taking several out of the warehouse from their cardboard boxes and tuning them. At the time we used count the grains per inch in the Table or top of a Guitar to select the best one. It had a higher GPI than anyother.

On this occasion we were shopping for a thumper for me to play along with Fiddle. I had already given away my last box - also gifted me by an oldtimey fiddler - Gibson - because the fretboard was too narrow for my hands so it hurt to play a simple C chord.

Subject: RE: BS: Martin Guitars again!
From: X
Date: 21 Jul 02 - 04:56 PM

The lack of end pins:

When I worked in a music store I noticed that the end pins were included in the "Top 10 things that walked out of the store in the customer's pocket list."

Just write a letter to Martin explaining your predicament and they will sent you a replacment.

Subject: RE: BS: Martin Guitars again!
From: bigchuck
Date: 21 Jul 02 - 05:32 PM

All new Martins that are not Vintage or Limited Ed. come with Corian saddle and nuts AFAIK (I work at a Martin dealership). All the ones I have played in the store need the nut slots deepened a bit and often the saddle shaved, as well as having the bridgepin holes reamed out slightly so they fit properly. Martin ships all their guitars in hardshell cases (included in the price)and the endpin is always in a little manila envelope in the accessory pocket of the case. Also they all have warranty papers which need to be signed off on by the dealer. We always send the paperwork in to Martin for the customer, but you should have gotten a copy of the form to keep. Something's a bit strange here, but I don't know what. Any guitar shop should have an end pin they'll sell you for $1.95 or so. Sandy

Subject: RE: BS: Martin Guitars again!
From: GUEST,Lionel
Date: 21 Jul 02 - 05:38 PM

Martins cost a great deal of money. Is it unreasonable to expect that these instruments shouldn't have to have a separate set-up which the purchaser has to pay for in addition to the cost of the instrument itself? What you want from an instrument - especially at the price of a Martin - is something that you can pick up and play, not something you have to tinker around with fixing this and that. Or have I got it wrong? Over-priced and over-rated. Lets face it, Martin churn these things out in their 100 thousands. And who is going to wait for years for one sound "really good", you wannna be playing it NOW. Guitar making and buyers expecations have moved on. Get on the ball Martin ! We want better instruments and lower prices! And why in hell can't the end-pin be supplied fixed in place? And another thing...

Subject: RE: BS: Martin Guitars again!
From: Mudjack
Date: 21 Jul 02 - 07:22 PM

Having 4 diferent Martins in the past, I thought they were the "best". But I have moved on to real value for the dollar and find that Martins are over priced for what the competition has to offer. I know you can buy a good hand built guitar for less money and they sound better than most Martins. Bottom line is you have to play what is best for you and fits your pocket book. I looked at many new Martins and the factory settings are set high s and usually require a set up from the dealer's repairman. The fingers will improve and you should be very happy playing your Martin.
Mudjack

Subject: RE: BS: Martin Guitars again!
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 21 Jul 02 - 07:32 PM

Thank you. This one does not have a hardshell case but a Guitar Bag with Martin in gold letters on the outside and what I noticed rightaway was that such a large label looks like ....ummm wondering.

Ummm actualy I like tha bag a lot, has shoulder straps for carrying the box around, and this suits the Road models. Presumably the owner would have a top line model back home while they travel between Gigs.

Subject: RE: BS: Martin Guitars again!
From: Greycap
Date: 21 Jul 02 - 07:52 PM

I've read all the other contributions to this thread and, while I respect other opinions, get the back pin, get it set up correctly, and you will not look back. The quality and sound is remembered when the price is long forgotten. I currently own two Martins: a D-28 and a D-18, a Takamine Santa Fe and a Santa Cruz F-128. Buy a Martin or a Santa Cruz!!! I've had Guilds & Gibsons, Levins, Hagstroms and Harmonys. You have a great guitar - go to sleep satisfied, a tweak or two may be necessary, but the basic material is in your hands.

Subject: RE: BS: Martin Guitars again!
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 22 Jul 02 - 02:28 AM

sorefingers might like to have a look at This page , where other owners of Martin DM's wax similarly enthusiastic.

I am afraid I cannot join in on all the acclamation. I bought a Martin DM four or five years ago. At the time I bought it, it sounded loud and bright, but the problem for me is that it has failed to mature over the years, which is obviously due to the laminate back and sides. Having owned a Martin D28-S many years ago I know what a mature Martin should sound like.

I don't think people realize that the DM series is not a "real" Martin, whatever the logo on the headstock says. Look at the label, it says "Made in USA", doesn't say "Made in Nazareth PA".

Still, at the price I paid for it in the Guitar Center($500.00 if I remember correctly right) I can't really complain. I just wish I had waited and saved until I could have afforded a real Martin .....

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Martin Guitars again!
From: Armen Tanzerian
Date: 22 Jul 02 - 02:17 PM

That a Taylor or any other brand could match the sound of a D-45 doesn't surprise me. D-45's are made to look fantastic, but the few newer ones I've played don't sound like much. My brand new D-18CW (Clarence White Special), on the other hand, is the best out-of-the-box guitar I've ever heard -- 90 to 95% of the tone of my '62 D-18. I'm just an old stick-in-the-mud, but I still think Martin makes the best flattops around. (OK, Mr. Collings, your turn.)

Subject: RE: BS: Martin Guitars again!
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 22 Jul 02 - 04:13 PM

As the owner of one of the SPD16-K2 Koa models, I have to say that the tone of most Martins is pretty special, although there are some dogs out there. But Lionels rant about Martins price and set-up costs is, in the very best light, a tad ignorant.

1. Martin builds many levels of guitars which, considering the prices for equivelent models from other makers, (Tylor, Guild, Younameit, etc.) are right in line for the product you get.

2. If you've had any experience playing a guitar, you know that you don't want to have your guitar set up until you've had it for a little while. After some forty years of playing, I do know that I want my Bass E higher than is "normal" and I really do not need a low action, since in doing a three finger jig pick, the trebles will ring off the frets. But as to the exact amount, I want to play it for a while, and even then I go slow in lowering the action, cause you can't really replace the material you've taken when you've gone too low.

3. If I had a nickel for each parlor player who comes to a jam with a "fast" or low action, and was never heard from again, I'd be a rich man.

Subject: RE: BS: Martin Guitars again!
From: Midchuck
Date: 22 Jul 02 - 05:56 PM

I still think Martin makes the best flattops around. (OK, Mr. Collings, your turn.)

Oh, you're quite right. They definitely do. Best around. The Collings are just pale shadows of them. Junk. If you see a Collings on eBay for way below list, don't bid on it, whatever you do. You'd be terribly disappointed if you got it. Really you would. Honestly. Stay away from Collings at all costs. Martins are where it's at. It would be a terrible thing if Collings got to be as much in demand as Martins are and the prices went up, I mean, and a lot of people ended up paying 'way too much. Forget Collings. They aren't worth your attention.

Peter.

...Heh, heh, heh....

Subject: RE: BS: Martin Guitars again!
From: Jeri
Date: 22 Jul 02 - 06:03 PM

And let Midchuck know about it so he can get that vile, nasty guitar right out of everyone's sight!

I suspect Martin just sets the action high because it's easier to go down than up. (Also, as somebody around here once pointed out to me, high action means the frets don't buzz when you try the thing out in the store.) And everybody has their own idea about what "right" is.

Subject: RE: BS: Martin Guitars again!
From: paul0
Date: 22 Jul 02 - 10:47 PM

> 3. If I had a nickel for each parlor player who comes to a jam with a "fast" or low action, and was never heard from again, I'd be a rich man.

As a parlor player with a low action guitar, thinking of joining a jam, I'm curious what's about to happen to me. You wanna fill me in?

Subject: RE: BS: Martin Guitars again!
From: GUEST,sorerfingers
Date: 22 Jul 02 - 11:37 PM

Thankyou folks all for hints and tips. Since I last logged on I broke a string. Guess the store left the same set on for ever, oh well. Replacing strings can be a pain.

The store did not have the exact set recommended but the nearest one - 7 bucks - Marquis Lights would be fine. It is and sounds even better with fatter strings on the bass end. Maker says one can fit any Martin with up to medium gauge. So the unsuited Marquis are no problemo. I don't like the heavier action but the sound is better.

Murray! Thank You for the link and I am sorry that your experience with a DM was not as you expected. As I already said not once but several times I have never played a Martin that I liked untill this one and when I did play it I did not realize it was a Martin till I looked and read the name off the headstock. My experience with them was that I could not get them to sing for me, at least the way I wanted them to. This one does! Also this box reminds me of one of the best sounding acoustic boxes I heard on stage - Everet - of Atlanta Ga.

I do not think that a good Guitar has to be any particular make - but I do know that one can pick up a box and be very very impressed - it does not have to be a famous maker it could be local maker who does not have national exposure.

I do think one can find a great box by any maker if there is lots of time to search and be objective. That is how I got the Fender I used have. It was a rare bird but I bet there are more like it.

Bringing in cash for gigs, it matters not what you do it on. I recall playing a Korean Banjo in a folk band. We got a good following. Folks did not say 'oh look at the Banjo Make' They mostly said 'who's round is it, this is a great night out!'

Subject: RE: BS: Martin Guitars again!
From: Armen Tanzerian
Date: 23 Jul 02 - 12:39 AM

Ooooh, d'ose wascally Collings guys...I nevew know if d'ey're sewious!

Subject: RE: BS: Martin Guitars again!
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 23 Jul 02 - 01:20 AM

As you probably know, for several years, the winner of the National Flatpick Contest in Winfield Kansas has been given his choice of a Collings, a Taylor or a Martin. After the winner makes his choice, the second place finisher gets his pick of the two that are left. Then, the third place finisher gets the Martin. *G*

Bruce

Subject: RE: BS: Martin Guitars again!
From: GUEST,Tim Ausburn
Date: 23 Jul 02 - 01:55 AM

Regardless of the make of guitar you play, I suggest that you try different brands of strings and different gauges of each brand. You'll be surprised how a dull sounding guitar can be improved by different strings. A lot of Martin guitars that I've tried over the years don't sound their best with Martin strings. Tim

Subject: RE: BS: Martin Guitars again!
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 23 Jul 02 - 09:19 AM

paul0, Ref: Parlor players - Newer players tend to want lower (faster) actions to reduce the strain on their fingers, especially if they have come from electric guitars, which can "turn up" their sound. Very few jams have amps; there are a few, mostly bluegrass or blues. Thus, the volume from your instrument, after you get past the size and shape of the box (D, J, 000, 00, jumbo etc)and the charateristics of the wood and design, is the attack on the strings and their set height off the nut/frets as well as their gauge and wrap. That which sounds exquisite in the parlor or with appropriate sound reinforcement, will suck at speed and volume in a jam. Hence the comment...

And I believe that Tim is correct about choice of strings; I violate every Martin rule by sticking a D'Addario 63 gauge bass, and a GHS 50 as an A on my K2, with the rest being medium Martin SP's. My action is high, and strings heavy, but it keeps the children from attempting to play with it...

And Be-dubya-el, the reason that they pick the Martins last, is that is the brand they won with... and they need something for the kids to play with... ;}

Subject: RE: BS: Martin Guitars again!
From: GUEST,guitarfixer
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 12:34 AM

The best builders of guitars have to set the action a little high at the nut in order to ship the guitar cross country and not have a neck change resulting from shipping and climate changes leave the instrument with buzzes and rattles. The Martin Company has made a great effort to change from the old days of mile-high action from the factory to action that is similar to the other top makers when the instruments arrive at the dealer. The big box stores: Sam Ash, Guitar Center and Mars, may have storage facilities that aren't heated or air conditioned, like Public Storage rental spaces. The action and problems that can result to a well-made guitar are not pleasant for the purchaser or the guitar company. Guitars of all brands sold in my town at Sam Ash have gone through this torture and should either be avoided altogether or rushed immediately to a guitar hospital. Martin is offering many special models now with bone nuts and saddles, wood bridge pins, too. This is a major change for them and surely a response to players like ourselves who equate the best materials with quality guitars. Remember when Taylors had Schaller tuners and bone nuts and saddles? Remember how much better they sounded? We just re-tested the "Tusq" saddles from Graph-Tech and they stilll don't compare with high density cow-bone. If you like the thinner, stringier sound of a Taylor you can find a guitar for $350-400 that offers that sound without the price tag. Try a Yamaha "Handcrafted" that comes standard with bone nut and saddle. If you like richness in second and third generation harmonics and a sound that blooms as it rings, Collings, Santa Cruz, Lakewood, Goodall and most Martins will probably please you most. If your factory ax didn't come with a bone saddle and wood pins, do yourself a big favor and try the upgrade. Old strings of any brand aren't worth taking home. Good brands are not so different, but if your dealer bought the strings a year ago to get a good price he's taking your money for nothin'. We recently had a bib store Grand Opening that offered 12 sets for $20. A customer opened the package on the first set to find rusted strings. What a deal!

Subject: RE: BS: Martin Guitars again!
From: GUEST,notsosorefingers
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 02:13 PM

Usefull reminders to check the condition of strings before buying! I once made the error of buying in bulk only later finding the useby date had long elapsed.

Any recommendations for Light Gauge Strings would be appreciated since it is a few years since I last bought strings and have no idea which to try.

The instrument settling down now to my way of playing is beginning to bounce real good. I found myself honking out some old Leadbelly favorites not played in 20 years! This box loves to sing!

Attempting some fiddle tune standards I used ease through on almost anything - including one pig made by Yamaha, on loan - I find that the DM is bigger pushing the forarm out of it's normal attitude, so missing and plain getting lost is a problem. I suppose one gets used to that one. I have slowed down so I can adjust to the new position. For a comparison it feels like Bowing a fiddle from behind another person - if that makes any sense.

The other makers seem to sell the player an easy play but Martin knows best and makes one play properly?

My fingers are adopting now to playing again after several years rest. I am assured the Shop did set up, so my fingers are the real source of that problem.

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: GUEST,Van Lingle
Date: 04 Aug 02 - 05:32 AM

Good points about non-fresh strings. D'Addario seals theirs in plastic and I've never pulled a corroded or a dead one out of their packaging. John Pearse also makes nice strings and I like the pricey Elixirs as well (which some here have described as feeling slimy) both for their feel and their amazing longetivity. vl

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 26 Aug 02 - 11:56 PM

Again thanking everyone for the help and tips, saved me some time and improved my experience with the DM.

It is a few weeks on into playing it and I yesterday managed to slip back into rag fingerpicking, Candyman. I did not expect to complete the tune but sorta happened - capoed up to F3 for the easy singing, some kids that were hanging around. Used a plastic thumb pick and bare fingers, oddly I can't seem to revive my thumb to it's old self. Used rarely have to use a thumbpick!

The box is settling down and opening up some new sounds as it gets played in. Lovely aroma when fingerpicked - strange I never noticed before but sure enough when picked it seems not to respond in the same way. Guess sounding several strings in specific order causes internal rhythms in the structure and that is what is making the wood respond.

The Martin Extralights felt great and I seem to fly through the harder bits of the picking. This box feels very easy when capoed. Noticed the sound thins out in the treble side up the neck with bare fingers. Probably strings, if so I can soon go back to the original set.

Will trade up on the bridge and saddle as suggested. Can't hurt it surely will help soften and refine the notes.

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: Boromir
Date: 27 Aug 02 - 08:31 AM

Claymore

My 15 year old son entered the contest last year. I saw it from beginning to end and I can assure that the 1st place winner didn't have any kids. And when he played his encore, he didn't use the new guitar and his old guitar didn't have a CF on it anywhere.

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From:
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 08:43 PM

Have 3 Martins 1965 D28 1943 0017 and a 2000 DM, for ease of playing tone etc etc, I find it hard to beat little plywood DM. The 0017 is a great little blues axe but I worry bout it to much! I play on the street a lot and worry bout theft. The D28 is out of the question (just to valuable)the D28 is for my grandson someday. But the DM fits my needs just fine so keep on keepin on.

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: Walking Eagle
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 10:18 PM

I have two Martins--a D1R-L and a left handed acoustic /electric bass.

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: Walking Eagle
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 10:30 PM

Shoot, pushed the wrong button again. I've not experienced any action that was too high.

Both of mine came with the end pins, but no neck pins. Martin prefers that you be able to put the neck pin where you want it. When you put in a neck pin, be sure and put a felt washer between your neck and the bottom part of the pin. Are you sure that it wasn't a neck pin you weren't sent rather than an end pin?

Now from here on, it's just me smarting off. I've played many good guitars before and have complimented the owners on the many fine points of their instruments. Believe me, when you're a leftie, you don't have much of a chance to play other good leftie guitars. I never 'dis' another's guitar. Seems to me, the Martin owners on these threads are polite and never 'dis' another guitar. I can't seem to say that about owners of other brands. We all like our guitars for whatever reasons. 'Dissing' is not needed and is uncalled for.

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: GUEST,jeep Man
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 10:46 PM

All new Martin Guitars come with a hard shell case and the end pin is normally in the case. Jim

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: Strupag
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 06:28 PM

About 12 year's ago I had saved up enough to buy a Martin. I went in to Paul's in Dingwall,( the locally trusted shop)
I had settled on one guitar but in the back of my mine I wasn't too happy.
Paul suggested that I tried this other guitar and I did. It was a Takamini and I fell in love with it. I still love it and nowadays I'm more determined than ever to buy a product for it's value rather than it's name.
I reckon Don Williams agrees with me

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From:
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 06:31 AM

I think Ya might have mispoke a little bit there Strupag maybe buy an insturment for it's sound rather than it's name. But if you want value you need the name too. I have a beautiful Takamini Jumbo Natural bought in the eighties for 700dollars value today maybe 500. My 1965 Martin D28 sold for 375 in 1965 value today according to my luthier $5000.00 I'd say that was a pretty good value wouldn't you? Now if your talkin sound there are great guitars that don't have the name but if your talkin value and keeping same ya just can't beat the names Martin, Gibson,Taylor etc etc.

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: Strupag
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 09:06 AM

Definately for sound Jim!

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: GUEST,Roy Shepherd
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 12:54 AM

Help: I just bought a used HD-28 Brazil Rosewood year 1986. Is this a special edition or what - I know that Martin went to Indian Rosewood about 1969 on this model. It is in mint condition and has a beautiful tone.
Thanks, Roy

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: Davetnova
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 06:55 AM

Now I am confused. I've just been browsing about ebay and there's this http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=2385&item=3757231980&rd=1 . It is a dealer but the advert states that there is a full 12months warranty FROM MARTIN on this guitar. When and where do Martins have warranty? Is it a question of luck whether you get one or not? Does anybody know?

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: s&r
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 07:15 AM

See the thread 'Warped Martin'

Stu

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 02:41 PM

New 'cat amazing is selling a Martin if anyone's interested.

Sal

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: s&r
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 07:22 PM

with warranty?......

Stu

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 03:32 PM

Two years ago I sold my Martin HD 28 and bought a new Martin SP000C-16R. In 1986 I paid one thousand dollars for the HD 28. I sold it for fifteen hundred which is what the new one cost. I'm fifty four years old and this is a smaller/easier guitar ro play. It may not have the punch the D28 did but the sound is lovely. However, the guitar I earn my living with is an Alveraz 12 string that I paid $175 for in 1980. I use extra light strings and it stays in tune until the strings are ready for the trash.          DHL

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: Stewart
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 04:41 PM

Martin's overpriced? I bought my D-18 new in 1956 for just $99. Had the neck reset and new frets a few years ago, and it still sounds better than any new Martin. It's a keeper.

Cheers, S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: Lanfranc
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 06:46 PM

I was in Peach Guitars in the wilds of Essex today, and they had one of THESE. Amazing though it seems it didn't play or sound bad at all, but what are Martin up to?

The same store had an electro-acoustic Martin in 000C shape with an aluminium top, composite back and sides, laminate neck and a Bigsby!!! Again, it played and sounded fine, but I can't help but think that Martin either have a totally new agenda ( a bit like Renault with cars ) or they've lost the plot. Which? - time will tell.

Alan

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: Amos
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 12:54 PM

Wild -- what the hell is HPL?Anyone know?It's what they say the thing is made of. High Pressure Laminate, maybe?


A

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: John Hardly
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 01:07 PM

Hockey Puck Laminate

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 01:58 PM

I think HPL is pretty much the same as Pergo flooring.

I got one of those Little Martins because it's a handy size and I figure it's indestructable. The only thing I don'tl ike is the imitation wood finish. It's a good imitation, but it's an imitation. I wish I'd waited a few months till the all-black one came out. Picky, I suppose.

clint

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: CraigS
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 05:39 PM

Martin are successfully diversifying - not a bad thing, and they are getting into the budget market that Kay and Harmony used to carve up between them in the US. Try those top end Kays that were available in the 60s, and you'll find that sound is not a strong point - and the top end Harmony guitars are not much better, although you can sometimes find a good one. If you are careful you will simply realise that you are buying a very good budget guitar with Martins' lower ranges, and that Martin have realised that using their name and building guitars close to home (to control quality) is a better strategy than their previous attempts to build their budget ranges under other names in Europe (they lost a lot of money there) and the Far East. Plywood is not a fair description of laminated back and sides - it does make manufacture quick and easy, but the solid top is still there on all but the cheapest range, and that is where the sound really comes from. At least Martin are still a family concern, and I am sure CF Martin IV still cares what happens in his factory! While I remember to mention it those HD models have shaved braces and should only be used with light strings. And if you want to replace that Corian nut, be aware that it is a risky business to replace any Martin nut - they don't glue them in, they weld them to the wood! If you HAVE to do it, saw away as much as possible with a fine tooth back saw, and remove the remaining material very carefully by paring with a chisel. Don't just stick the chisel in and crack it with the hammer, or you get the end of the fingerboard and part of the head veneer as well!

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 11:07 AM

The Martin DM is probably the best value for money Martin you can buy, but maybe that's not such an endorsement.

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: Midchuck
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 11:36 AM

The Martin DM is probably the best value for money Martin you can buy, but maybe that's not such an endorsement.

Respectfully disagree.

I'd call the 000-15S the best dollar value Martin's now making - and that is an endorsement.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: Mark Ross
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 02:38 PM

I'd have to agree that th OOO15S is the best deal going. Great guitars, if you can handle the extra width on the neck!

Mark Ross

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: Midchuck
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 02:48 PM

What extra width? 1 3/4" at nut is The Minimum Correct Width for a (steel-string) guitar neck. My Collings is 1 13/16 and it works just fine for me. The idea of 1 11/16" being desirable must have been promulgated by some Martin CEO in the past who had little skinny fingers...

Peter.

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: Mark Ross
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 03:52 PM

Peter, It's still just a frog's hair wider than most guitars, and for some it feels awkward. Not to me though. Still my favorite new Martin model.

Mark Ross

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 05:01 PM

I just looked up the 00015-S on the Martin website. Aesteticly a very pleasing instrument.
I'm sure the topic's been beat to death in other threads , but whats the advantage (or disadvantage) of the slotted headstock vs a regular one?

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: Wesley S
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 05:54 PM

Usually the slotted headstocks are 12 fret models - the bridge is located in a more central psition. And most folks will tell you that it improves the tone - a lot.

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: Midchuck
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 06:37 PM

Usually the slotted headstocks are 12 fret models - the bridge is located in a more central psition. And most folks will tell you that it improves the tone - a lot.

Definitely agree. Not only the tone but the power.

There are several theories as to why this is.

1: Wesley's, above. Since the body is longer and the neck shorter on a 12-fret than a 14 fret, given the same scale, the bridge ends up closer to the middle of the body, where the vibration can be picked up better by the top.

2: Simply the fact that a 12-fret body has greater volume than a 14-fret the same "size," even though it may not look any bigger. Thus moving more air, thus making more sound.

3: (This is the only one where the slotted head is directly relevant) The idea that the strings make a sharper angle over the nut on a slothead, putting more "down" pressure on the nut, thus transmitting vibration more effectively from the string to the guitar at that end.

I don't know which is the truth. I suspect they all contribute. But I would swear that, other factors (size, quality of wood, quality of workmanship) being equal, a 12-fret will almost always have a fuller and more powerful tone than a 14.

All IMNSHO, of course.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: Once Famous
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 09:59 PM

I looked at the 000-15S in the Elderly catalog.

Slotted headstocks are a matter of taste. For me, they still look like a classical guitar.

I'm just curious about the volume thing. Seems to me bluegrass players are always looking for volume. Why does it seem you never see a bluegrass player playing a D28S?

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: CraigS
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 10:18 PM

Slotted head was the best way to make tuners work smoothly until someone (Kluson, I think) devised the free-standing post tuner in the 30s, which made it economical to use a solid head. Solid head was traditional (like on flamenco guitars with friction pegs), then came geared tuners needing the bearing surfaces both sides of the slot to stop the shafts from bending over, then some top-line guitars used a solid head with planetary banjo tuners (expensive), then most of the better quality guitars were made with a solid head and the cheapos used the old-style tuners with slots because that was the cheapest solution. Nowadays the cost of making the tuners has dropped, the cost of cutting slots has risen, and the solid head is the cheapest solution! Me, I don't think it affects tone much at all - as far as I can see there's a minimum angle from the nut to the tuner required to prevent buzzing, and once you exceed that angle you get no tonal change.
12 fret neck, as opposed to a 14 fret on the same body design, gives a more balanced sound - not as bass-heavy and a thicker middle. Bridge position is the main factor for the sound difference.
But in the case of the most obvious example - 12 fret slot head Martin 000 guitars (24.9" scale) were not as sought after as Martin OM models (000 size, 25.4" scale, 14 frets), which were (and are) sought after for their tonal difference from the standard 000 models (24.9" scale, 14 frets). The bridge position differs from the standard model by about 0.35" on the OM, and by over an inch on the 12 fret! I do not understand these preferences - if anybody does, please tell!

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: Mark Ross
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 11:12 AM

Actually the 12 fret OOO's are long scale guitars(25.4").

Mark Ross

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: Justa Picker
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 12:06 PM

I have yet to play any Martin slothead that actually stayed in tune for more than 3 minutes of playing.

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: Wesley S
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 01:23 PM

Justa Picker - I have a friend with the Merle Haggard model Martin - a 12 fret slothead with a cutaway - and he hasn't had any trouble keeping it in tune. Your milage may vary of course.

And Martin - You said
"I'm just curious about the volume thing. Seems to me bluegrass players are always looking for volume. Why does it seem you never see a bluegrass player playing a D28S?"

I suspect a lot of it is just tradition. Mandolin players play F-5's because Bill Monroe played one. I suspect bluegrass guitar players do the same thing. "If it was good enough for Lester Flatt it's good enough for me". I also suspect that many of them feel the need to have those extra two frets - even though they may never use them.

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: GLoux
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 01:53 PM

I think changing strings is somewhat more difficult with a slot head, both taking off a string and putting on a new one. Just takes a little more patience. If you tend to frequently break strings while in performance, this could be an issue to consider.

-Greg

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: Mark Ross
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 02:08 PM

Norman Blake has been playing 12 frets lately, OOO and sometimes smaller. With the new amplification technology a Dreadnought isn't necessarily the 1st choice(aside from tradition, of course).

Mark Ross

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: GUEST,Maurice
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 02:41 PM

The start of this thread was about Martins making the fingers sore....A problem I find is that Martin frets are very low, so you need to "squeeze" a bit harder. There is probably a good reason for this but I certainly call it a bad feature. Even very small differences in fret height, neck width, etc. can have a big effect on "playability".

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: GLoux
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 04:49 PM

From Tim O'Brien's web site:

Tim's Guitar - A Collings Dreadnaught

This slotted headstock dreadnaught is made by Collings Guitars in Austin Texas. I've always loved the look and the sound of this type of instrument. The sloping shoulders disguise the fact that the 25 and 3/4 inch scale (from nut to bridge saddle) is the same length as normal dreadnaughts. The fingerboard meets the body at the 12th fret instead of the more normal 14th fret. Sure it's harder to play up past the twelfth fret, but as a lot of country players know, there's not much money past the 5th fret anyway! The advantage to this design is a little more top surface, as well as the increased angle behind the nut that the slotted headstock features. It has a wide fingerboard, which I love for finger style playing. Collings small factory makes some of the finest acoustic guitars you can purchase these days. They are also making some fine mandolins. In fact a Tim O'Brien model is in the works - watch for them to be available in limited production very soon. It will be a black top A-5 mandolin, in the style of my old standby Nugget mandolin, with custom fine tuning and finish by Mike Kemnitzer of Nugget mandolins.

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: GLoux
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 04:51 PM

My point: A slotted headstock played by one of the highest profile bluegrass musicians around. Isn't he the head of the IBMA?

-Greg

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: GUEST,bobdoe99
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 08:14 PM

i bought my new martin guitar today, the D15 model, ive been playing guitars for over 20 years and this is the worst guitar i have ever had, the action of the strings is way too high, the strength of the guitar is very bad, it looks good but thats about it. needless to say im taking it back to the dealer. 660 pounds for a shit guitar....i dont think so. give me back EKO ANYDAY, cheap but excellent guitars

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: nager
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 09:50 PM

That's a shame:

I bought a D15 here in Australia about three years ago and have found it to be excellent. I had it set up correctly by the store's repair man. This meant medium guage strings, action lowered and bone nut and saddle to replace the plastic ones. The tone and quality improved out of this world and just keeps getting better and better with more use.
Most people I have corresponded with on the Net - via the Martin Unofficial Guitar site and other places - sing its praises.
So do other people who hear it and those (few)I allow to play it.
Martin often sets the action high on its guitars but a good guitar shop will fix all this up to suit your needs.
It really is a light guitar to hold, but its strength is fine and volume very high.
But everyone to their own. If you are not hapy with your purchase best thing is to take it back and replace it with something else.

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: Once Famous
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 10:57 PM

Gloux

Name 2-3 others in bluegrass who play a slotted headstock.

'1' is not an example. It is an exception.

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: Steve-o
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 12:43 PM

'One' certainly is "an example". Look it up in your Funk & Wagnalls. Other examples would be Peter Rowan, Tom Sauber, and the previously mentioned Norman Blake. MOST Bluegrassers don't play guitars with slotted headstocks, true, because most Dreadnought bodies feature solid pegheads.

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: Once Famous
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 12:46 PM

Of course. Those mentioned are a few exceptions to MOST.

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: Midchuck
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 01:24 PM

Most traditional bluegrass guitar players play 14-fret dreads because the original bluegrass guitar players played 14-fret dreads, because bluegrass got started in the late '40s and early '50s, and there weren't any 12-fret dreads being made at that time - by Martin, anyway, and a bluegrass guitarist always played a Martin, in that time period. (Run-on sentence? Me?! You jest, of course!)

As a matter of sheer logic, a 12-fret dread would make more sense for traditional bluegrass guitar, which is just bass-chord rhythm with a lot of base runs. But custom and tradition rule in bluegrass, not logic.

Modern bluegrass guitar players often take lead breaks, so they use the whole neck, and need the extra frets.

So both groups use the 14-fretters, for two different reasons.

I think.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: Cluin
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 06:04 PM

This morning on the Fine Living channel, there was a program called The Genuine Article which investigate various renowned product. The topic this morning was fine acoustic guitars, especially Martins. They visited the factory, showing many of the specialized crafts practiced there and gave a good review of what to look for in an acoustic guitar. They dealt with other makes too, but only visited the Martin facility and Mandolin Brothers.

It was a good program to watch over my morning coffee and eggs.

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: Guy Wolff
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 09:48 PM

The Martin Carthy 00018 model has a zerro fret ( something martin was loth to do ) but the guitar is very nice to play !!! . It also came with heaveier strings due to playing in open tunings . ( Carthy plays with the base string down to C) Heaveir strings tuned up are pulled tighter and so are harder to push down . Along those lines<><><><> For the fun of it some time try a set of light strings instead of your ex-light and tune down a whole note to get easeir playing .Also Your are having an easier time at the third fred because you are getting away from the peghead nut . tuned down and capoed at the second fret will also help make the instroment easier to play till you get more used to it .. All the best ,
          Myself I love higher action for concert work . Sounding an instroment takes on another demention when you think of filling a room and connecting with that couple in the back row who are still chatting each other up . All the best , guy

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: GUEST,Joan Holcomb
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 11:31 AM

I own a CEO-5 Martin guitar and I play BLUEGRASS music. The Sound is there when you need it and it has a great sound. I take lead breaks all the time and I have had alot of people tell me how great it sounds and it stays in tune very well, but I don,t try to beat the hell out of it either. It is loud enough so I don"t have too! I have calluses so playing isn't bad for me.I have been playing for years .I'll never play anything but a Martin. Only the tough can play a martin. It's a great instrument. Also, for those that don't know what a CEO-5 is, It's a 12-fret, has a bearclaw spruce top, sapalo back and sides, mother-of-pearl around the soundhole, slotted headstock and herringbone around the body.If you ever see one try it! Keep on Jammin'& Lovin' it.   Joan

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: kendall
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 01:03 PM

I think we should all thank Taylor, Collings, Santa Cruz and Larrivee for forcing Martin to go back to building fine guitars. They got lazy and sloppy in the 70's but now they are hard at work to maintain their reputation. They can no longer take thinking pickers for granted.

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: GUEST,Smitty
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 03:57 PM

Can anyone give me information on a Martin Resonator Guitar

Subject: RE: Martin Guitars again!
From: Wesley S
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 04:06 PM

Smitty - I've never seen one - but that doesn't mean that they don't exist. Have you checked Martin website ? Or the Martin guitar forum ?