Review: Waltzing Matilda

Subject: Waltzing Matilda
From: GUEST,Jim McLean
Date: 24 Jul 02 - 08:01 PM

Has any one considered that Waltzing Matilda was based on a song by Robert Tannahill? Cheers, Jim Mclean

Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: greg stephens
Date: 24 Jul 02 - 08:07 PM

Well, no, Jim. Great start to a thread, though.More, please. I will chuck in the often observed fact that the tune of the chorus is only slightly changed from Mozart, cant remember the name of the piece.

Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: GUEST,Jim McLean
Date: 24 Jul 02 - 08:22 PM

Clue! Thou Bonnie Wood of Craigielea words Robert Tannahill Air James Barr.

Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 24 Jul 02 - 08:38 PM

Mozart? - "Experts disagree on who wrote the music but most believe that it's an arrangement by Thomas Bulch of an old Scottish tune called 'Craigielea'."

Consult - http://www.urbanlegends.com/songs/waltzing_matilda.html

Lots of previous mudcat discussions.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: greg stephens
Date: 24 Jul 02 - 08:45 PM

Well, is there a theory that the tune of Waltzing Matilda is a bit like the tune for Craigielea? From what I recall of the Craigielea tune there's no very obvious connection. But I havent heard the song for a while so I couldnt swear to that, maybe I just never noticed. Did Banjo Paterson say it was to be sung to Craigielea, perhaps? But I guarantee anyone would recognise the connection between W.M. and the Mozart piece, I'm sure whover came up with the tune must have had Mozart in mind, it's too close for coincidence. Tell us more, Jim.

Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: greg stephens
Date: 24 Jul 02 - 08:48 PM

Anyone able to provide blue clickie's to relevant sheet music?

Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: Stewie
Date: 24 Jul 02 - 08:53 PM

As Gargoyle says, there have been previous forum discussions on this. I felt sure there was a fairly recent one, but a forum search failed to unearth it. However, here is a link to a thread a couple of years old with some links to even earlier ones:

Click

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Jul 02 - 08:59 PM

Waltzing Matilda is covered pretty thoroughly in this website from the Australian National University: Matilda
Copies of original score, Ms, the three major variations. The article notes that it is quite a stretch to Barr's "Craigielea." versions and history
There is a thread, several months back, that covers the story in some detail.

Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Jul 02 - 09:10 PM

Thread 46011 has discussion: Waltzing Talk

Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 24 Jul 02 - 09:33 PM

The best discussion was:

Craigielee/Waltzing Matilda

www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=3857

Blue Clickys are for Wusies - learn to cut and paste.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: greg stephens
Date: 24 Jul 02 - 09:39 PM

All very interesting. Like a lot of stories about folksongs (if soemthing as well documentedas this could be called a folksong)thevarious accounts leave unanswerable questions. Christine McPherson's tune is reputedto have been said by her to be what she remembered of the Craigielea tune, as arranged by a man called Bulch, played at a concert some time previously. We dont know how good her memory was, but the fact is that her tune isnt the Craigielea tune. Another fact is she hadnt mastered musical notation, and her manuscript doesnt make sense(in the chorus anyway).Howeer, you can see roughly what shemeant, and it is undoubtedly the basis of the modern tune. I would guess that, whether or not she could or couldnt remember anything of Craigielea, she certainly had a bit of Mozart in her head for the chorus. Or possibly the bloke who reworked her tune was remembering the Mozart, as his version of the tune is closer to Mozart than hers was. A lot of ifs and buts!
However, going back to the original topic, what is undoubtedly 100% certain true is that Robert Tannahill had no hand in Waltzing Matilda, words or music. Well, probably.

Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Jul 02 - 09:40 PM

3857: Craigielea
Born-again Wusie

Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: GUEST,Sheila
Date: 25 Jul 02 - 01:26 AM

What's a "Wusie?"

Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 25 Jul 02 - 02:58 AM

Considering that she played the "tune" on an auto-harp - there is a lot of latitude.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 25 Jul 02 - 10:01 AM

G'day Greg and Gargoyle,

Considering that she was a pianist, attempting to play a tune from memory on someone else's auoharp ... she did bloody well!

In another thread, I mentioned that I have arranged each stage of the tune, from Barr's original to the well-known Marie Cowan arramgement in sequence, in the same key and MIDI voicing) ... and the progression is obvious ... and typical of a tune being moved into new arrangemets &c (Bulch's was a "quick march' arrangement of a miltary band version).

Anyway, if you PM an e-mail address to me, I will send a PDF or GIFF image of the dots and a MIDI file of the notes for you to compare.

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: greg stephens
Date: 25 Jul 02 - 10:08 AM

Bob have you included the bit of Mozart in your medley?

Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 02 - 10:15 AM

Bob, thank you, this sounds interesting your e-mail address is?

Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 25 Jul 02 - 10:36 AM

Greg - you are certainly insistant that she certainly had a bit of Mozart in her head for the chorus.

What is your chapter and verse for this statement AND most importantly, what is the identity of the Mozart piece you believe was purloined? i.e. Don Giovanni Scena 6 Atto II Scena: 1

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: greg stephens
Date: 25 Jul 02 - 11:08 AM

Gargoyle, this is the problem. I had hoped by now someone would have written in and pointed out the name of the piece. I am relying purely on memory, possibly from as long as 40 years ago. My father put this record on and said"Gregor( as I was known in those days) what is that the tune of?" And I said "Waltzing Matilda", as would anyone else who heard it. And he went on and referred to is as a familiar fact/hypothesis in musical circles that this piece must have influenced the composer of Waltzing Matilda. And the trouble is I dont listen to a lot of Mozart, and I've never heard (or heard of) this piece of music since. I would guess it was chamber music, a string quartet or a piano quintet, something of that nature. And Iam damn sure it was the chorus of WM it was like, not the verse.And I'm almost certain it was more like the Cowan than the McPherson version..
I fully appreciate that may have dreamed thewhole incident, which is why I'm hoping for corroboration.I did once dream that the tune"Immortal Invisible" was the original tune for the song "The Princess Royal" so I know these things can happen.

Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Jul 02 - 01:01 PM

I've got Don Giovanni and I will check it. My ear is not the best, but I'll try to catch the tune.

Here are Patterson's original words and a midi of the "Queensland version" on the University of Queensland website: Waltzing Matilda

Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Jul 02 - 01:16 PM

Reread the posts and realized that I mis-read- the Mozart was not identified. Too much Mozart; it would be the needle in the haystack jobbie.

Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Jul 02 - 01:40 PM

The original score of W. M. is shown on the ANU website. Maybe MacPherson's tune is different enough to be considered "original." The score includes the chorus: Original score

Neither website I have linked to mention Mozart in connection with the tune. The one linked here says it is not easy to pick out the relationship to "Cragielea."

Notice the comment about "copyright." The Cowan version is still © in the United States. There is discussion about that in the website (also discussed in one of the previous threads).

Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 25 Jul 02 - 02:08 PM

I have to say that I find it highly curious thatno-one else in the world seems to be familiar with this piece of Mozart.Perhaps my father was taking the piss out of me He was a classical musician, and disapproved of my skiffle/folk obsession). Maybe he had one of those joke recordings, "Fantasia on Waltzing Matilda" in the style of Mozart. But I'm sure I can remember looking at the sleeve: and I'm surethe melody was only like Waltzing Matilda, not variations on Waltzing Matilda. I've had a huge search on Waltzing Matilda/Mozart things and failed to find anything.i dont think I suffer from False Memory Syndrome: surely I'd have come up with something more wild than this.
Unfortunately my father is not immediately available for consultation, though I suppose I could get him to rap out the k-number on the table.

Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: GUEST,Jim Mclean
Date: 25 Jul 02 - 02:20 PM

I'm sorry I started this latest discussion as I didn't know it had been thoroughly researched earlier. I was born just around the corner from Tannahill's cottage in Paisley and our tenement building faced the graveyard where he is buried. We used to hide there after stealing apples from the Minister's garden! My mother was Paisley born and bred and used to sing Thou Bonnie Wood of Craigielea often. I first noticed the connection with Waltzing Matilda over 50 years ago as they both share obvious passages in verse and chorus. Waltzing Matilda is an original tune in its own right but your ears have to be painted on if you can't hear the similarities with Carigielea.

Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Jul 02 - 03:08 PM

Greg, unless you find someone who is very familiar with Mozart's music- an authority, no less- finding the bit of melody again is, as I said, a needle in the haystack search. He wrote so many tuneful melodies and bits of melody (some borrowed from folk song or composed melody and developed into something else). Then again, if the melody is simple, it could just be coincidence. I have quite a bit of Mozart in my cd -lp collection, but it is only a fragment of his output.

Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 26 Jul 02 - 02:33 AM

Jim Mclean - PLEASE do not be "sorry" for starting this thread...it has provided precisely what you asked for "a review" (and a good one at that - easily in the top 20% of all mudcat posted threads IMHO.)

Greg - the good news is....there are now 20 more attentive ears listening for the Mozart phrase....perhaps the source will re-surface over the next three years...I know I will begin listening for the obsure tune blended into an unplayed CD.

PublicBroadcastingServiceRadio (US) airs a weekly series about music (BBS???) about music trivia - this sounds like precisely one of their type questions. Anyone know the name of the classical music radio quiz show?

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: greg stephens
Date: 26 Jul 02 - 03:21 AM

thanks for ideas, Gargoyle. I seriously want to find this, though it feels like chasing a will-o-the-whisp(that doesnt look right, spelling or punctuation). I am writing to the Ned Sherrin Music Quiz on BBC Radio 4.... they must have the listeners who know this sort of thing.

Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 26 Jul 02 - 09:35 AM

G'day Jim McLean, Greg, Garg and GUEST,

Christina wasn't listening to Mozart ... she had heard Bulch's quick march arrangement at Warrnambool races the year before. What she played ... at least what she wrote out for various people (I have examined two or three holograph versions) has either been "mis-remembered" ... or adjusted to the words.

The well-known Waltzing Matilda - the Marie Cowan arrangement is three steps away from Barr's original ... and progressive changes appear at each step. If you can't PM (eg GUEST) send you e-mail address to me at and I'll give you the several steps in whatever form you can comprehend.

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: greg stephens
Date: 26 Jul 02 - 09:42 AM

McPherson or Cowan may well have listened to Mozart.Obviously I dont know that they did, but I dont know that they didnt either.

Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Jul 02 - 01:40 PM

Bob, almost sounds like the citation for the music should be Barr arr. Bulch arr. MacPherson rearranged Cowan for the currently used version- or some such string.

Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 26 Jul 02 - 03:08 PM

This issue of common sounds [not necessarily origins] is the sort of thing that Peter Schikele loves to hunt for.

Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 26 Jul 02 - 08:44 PM

The BBC's Ned Sherrin Music Quiz

That's the one - I think they will love the question, and know the answer.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 27 Jul 02 - 10:29 AM

G'day again Jim McLean,

To get way back to your original post

... the Belfast group/family The McPeakes sang the song that almost beacame the standard last song in folk clubs in the 1960s/'70s Will Ye Go Lassie, Go? ... and it is based on a song from Tannahill's Braes of Balquidder

... and the Republican Irish have a deep and religious respect for the song (written for a Dion Boucicault play) Wearing of the Green - tune borrowed from another setting of a Tannahill poem!

What is it about Tannahill that unites us all?

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: GUEST,Jim McLean
Date: 27 Jul 02 - 12:04 PM

Hi BoB, As a record producer I recorded Nigel Denver singing The Braes O' Balquhither (as Tannahill spelled it) to the original tune suggested by him The Three Carles O Buchanan. The McPeakes version obviously 'went over the water' to the Northern Irish who are sometimes called Ulster Scots. I knew the McPeakes very well, even old Francie who is sadly gone. His son, youg Francie has also passed away leaving another 'young Francie'whom I last saw in my house here in London about 10 years ago. You bring back memories! I also recorded Jimmie Logan, the Scottish comedian, singing the McPeakes' version. I think the connection is immigrant Scottish/Irish travellers(?) in Australia. Cheers, Jim Mclean

Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: greg stephens
Date: 27 Jul 02 - 12:21 PM

Jim. interested in your comment about a tune called the "Three Carles of Buchanan" being Tannahill's chosen tune for Braes of Balquidder". Is this the same tune hat you see "Braes of Balquidder" set to in standard Scottish song books? I ask because that tune(which is also related to the McPekes version) is itself a varaition on a much earlier pre-Tannahill tune also called "The Braes of Balquidder"..earliset version I have seen was spelt "Brays of Bochiter" c1730). So is the "Three Carles of Buchanan an alternative title for this old tune?

Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: GUEST,Jim McLean
Date: 27 Jul 02 - 04:52 PM

Hi Greg, The only other tune I know other than the McPeakes' is the one in Johnson's Musical Museum and supplied by Robert Burns to a song called 'The Braes O Balquidder' but this is unlike the McPeakes' or The three Carles O' Buchanan. The Three Carles ... is the one used for The Braes of Balquhidder in The Songs of Scotland, melodies edited by Colin Brown. I merely extended the song where the final refrain ends ' ..'mang the bonnie bloomin heather' last note Fsharp, I repeat Fsharp, E, D. to the phrase Will ye go. Cheers, Jim

Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 28 Jul 02 - 03:48 AM

G'day again Jim McLean,

You are, of course, right in pointing to the Scots immigration in many new coutries (and we'll stop stirring the Wearing o' the Green pot ...). The early keenness for Craigielea in Australian circles is clearly traceable to Gov. Macquarie ... and more so, to his wife who loved the song/tune and made sure Lachlan supplied the music to the Marine Corps bands.

One problem in Australian folk circles (and we are not on our Pat Malone) is that so many people ... and bands - think the Irish wrote everything and ignore the Scots ... and the English ... and the Welsh ... and the Germans ... and the Poles ... and the Dutch ... and the the rest of European settlement in the this country.

(As for the people who were here for 60,000 years before all this ... who?)

Regard(les)s,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Jul 02 - 09:20 PM

Reminds me of a program I once heard about the Grand Old Opry- the favorite American country-bluegrass venue for many years. Quite a few of the performers or their parents were from eastern Europe, some with changed names. People forget that good fiddle players and other musicians were widespread in Europe outside of those coastal islands we talk about so much.

Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: rich-joy
Date: 29 Jul 02 - 06:39 AM

When Ewan MacColl recorded Tannahill's "The Braes o' Balquhither / Balquither" on "Traditional Songs and Ballads" (with Peggy Seeger - Folkways, FW 8760, 1964), he remarked that it had "passed into the Scots country singer's repertoire" and that the Nthn Ireland's "Wild Mountain Thyme" "appeared to be a version of Tannahill's song". MacColl says he learned it from Betsy Henry of Auchterarder.

The '97 Mudcat posting of "The Braes o' Balquidder" by Bruce O., says that there was a recording on Folk Lyric by Betsy Miller, "Ewan MacColl's mother".

Wolfgang, in a '99 posting, say that it's pronounced "Balwhither" (according to the Tannahill Weavers website).

The "robokopp" folk lyrics site, mentions the melody as "The Three Carls o' Buchanan" when they posted the lyrics ...

Oh Sorry, was this a "Waltzing Matilda" thread???!!!
(now I wasn't the one who started Waltzing Matilda out the door here, you know!!!)
It's just that I've always liked this song - and grew to HATE that old chestnut "Will Ye Go Lassie, Go"!!!

Cheers! R-J

Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: Percustard
Date: 30 Jul 02 - 04:58 AM

I know a band who performs Craigielea and Matilda as a medley (tunes seamlessly joined together). Starts in 4.4 goes to 5.4 then to 12.8 and back to 5.4 (percussion didge cello flute vocals acoustic guitar).

It works very well live. Proof of the pudding and all that!!

Tursacan is the band, by the way.

Keep and ear out for us!

Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: Percustard
Date: 30 Jul 02 - 05:01 AM

By the way Bob...I'd like a copy of your MIDI file.

I will go back to the Mudcat instructions and try and figure out the Personal Message thing again.

Seeya

Mark

Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 30 Jul 02 - 08:27 AM

G'day Percustard,

They're on their way to you ... 5 stages of the tune (but you can ignore the last one!).

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: Percustard
Date: 30 Jul 02 - 08:11 PM

Thanks Bob.

Got 'em.

And, everyone else, I do recommend having a listen to Bobs Midi compilation of the tunes for Waltzing Matilda and its origins.

It is quite interesting to hear and read about 200 years of song evolution in 5 minutes!

I find this kind of thing fascinating.

That last tune Bob, more info please?

Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 30 Jul 02 - 09:49 PM

Bob - Please post your e-mail address to this thread.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: Percustard
Date: 30 Jul 02 - 10:26 PM

I suggest joining Mudcat and using the personal message system.

Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 30 Jul 02 - 11:22 PM

G'damn ... er ... G'day GUESTing gargoyle,

It looks like the address fell off my 26 July posting! Maybe I bracketed it with 'chevron' brackets and left out the safety spaces.

Here is it - free of traps (I hope):
bobbolton@netspace

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 30 Jul 02 - 11:27 PM

Ooops ... except the trap of paying too much attention to the lunchtime yoghurt ... and not enough to typing (and proofreading!

That should have been:
[e-mail]

Regard(les)s,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 31 Jul 02 - 01:34 AM

Thank you

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Percustard - Several years ago I was banished from Max's Mudcatdom and now live in exile...

Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: Percustard
Date: 31 Jul 02 - 10:41 PM

Far be it from me to advise on membership.

I drop in and out of guesthood all the time.

Sometimes I just get too cocky.

seeya

Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Aug 02 - 08:30 AM

Over the years I've bought a number of editions of "The Man from Snowy River and Other Works" by A. B. Paterson. In one of them the tune is stated has being taken from a soldiers marching song from the time of Marlborough.

If that is true it would most likely be from the period 1702 - 1712. Mozart lived between 1756 and 1791.

I have heard Waltzing Matilda sung to three different tunes and do not know the one referred to in the notes mentioned above.