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Subject: The Flower of Scotland From: RonU Date: 11 May 98 - 11:51 PM The Flower of Scotland by Roy Williamson, such a beautiful tune. I'm sure there are interesting stories regarding the use of the song (such as by the Scotland MJ). |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: RonU Date: 12 May 98 - 01:27 PM I hope someone can increase my knowledge about this tune, the writer, the lyrics. |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: Sandro Date: 12 May 98 - 05:20 PM It is on the Corries in Concert Album. A ripping rendition. |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: Art Thieme Date: 13 May 98 - 04:15 PM The national flower here in the US is now the concrete cloverleaf! |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: John Nolan Date: 13 May 98 - 10:05 PM The most moving renditions of this song, for me at least, have always been when it is sung by 50,000+ Scottish football supporters on the terraces of Hampden Park. The worst renditions are when it is played through the tinny loudspeaker systems of Scottish National Party organisers combing the streets in vans on election day. Some would like F.O.S. to be Scotland's national anthem - others, particularly socialists, would prefer Hamish Henderson's Freedom Come All Ye. Almost everyone is agreed that Scotland The Brave stinks as an anthem. |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: RonU Date: 14 May 98 - 12:08 AM I'm looking to purchase "The Corries In Concert" here in the colonies but, so far, no one has a copy in stock. I will be happy to find it in any format though would prefer tape cassette. I'm sure it will turn up if I keep searching. Art, the tranquility of my small hometown is to be shattered by a Super Wal-Mart, and last week's newpaper said a ten-screen movie theatre will be built nearby. I guess we'll be needing a national flower soon to handle all the outlanders. |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: GUEST,Steve Date: 23 Sep 04 - 10:31 AM Can anyone conclusively clarify if The Flower of Scotland is about William Wallace or Robert the Bruce? Have been researching as I am writing a little about the subject but have read conflicting views. Cheers |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: John MacKenzie Date: 23 Sep 04 - 11:00 AM The Battle of Flodden Field was fought under James IV of Scotland on 9th September 1513. The words of the poem have been attributed to Lady Nairne, but were actually written by Jane {Jean} Elliot. I don't know who wrote the tune, but it certainly sends a shiver down my spine, when played on the pipes. Giok |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: Georgiansilver Date: 23 Sep 04 - 11:03 AM Flower of Scotland is very much an anti-English song and there are people who use it to that effect unfortunately...I went to a friends daughters wedding to a Scot, where it almost provoked an incident. Ah well, all turned out well in the end and the couple are still happily married. Best wishes. |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: John MacKenzie Date: 23 Sep 04 - 11:54 AM The battle in Flower of Scotland must be Bannockburn, where the Scots were lead by Robert the Bruce, as it mentions 'proud Edward's army' This was one of the few we won, so we tend to celebrate it a bit. McGonigle's Take Giok |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: Abby Sale Date: 23 Sep 04 - 11:54 AM Whoa, buck. Different Flower. The original thread & I assume GuestSteve's question is re "The Flower of Scotland," by Roy Williamson. See the two links above. Yes, I'm fairly confident that it is re Wallace defeating Edward's I army (Ed wasn't there) a few years earlier on Sept. 11, 1297 at Stirling. 'Bout the only Ed this could be about except my friend Ed who invaded Scotland to sing some folk songs four years ago. He didn't exactly have an army, just a few friends. The ansewers relate to "Floo'ers of the Forest" re Flodden. That was also a Fine Flower, though and I sang that one just this week to commemorate. |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: GUEST,Mingulay Date: 23 Sep 04 - 12:00 PM The Flour of Scotland is McDougalls. |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: John MacKenzie Date: 23 Sep 04 - 12:35 PM Please Mingulay, please resist this urge for rotten puns. We already have lorries from a Scottish flour company driving round with the legend 'The flour of Scotland' written on their cabs. I can't remember their name, but it isn't MacDougalls. Might be Chancelot Mills! Certainly incurs the cringe factor in me. Giok |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: kendall Date: 23 Sep 04 - 12:54 PM When I did my tour of Scotland back in 1990, I led a room full of local singers at the Black Bitch in Linlithgow. It was to be my last song for that night and there wasn't a dry eye in the house. |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: Rabbi-Sol Date: 23 Sep 04 - 02:39 PM I have this song by The WolfeTones. It is track #8 on their album "A Sense Of Freedom" SOL ZELLER |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: GUEST,Mingulay Date: 24 Sep 04 - 06:35 AM Sorry Giok, sometimes the urge overcomes me. |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: Dita Date: 24 Sep 04 - 07:39 AM Not one of my favourites, probably due to the brest bashing, I'm one of the Freedom come all ye, or A man's a man brigade. The Corries recorded this a number of times, (probably every time they changed record label). The very first recording, mid sixties on Fontana, was a lot slower, a lament like take, far different from it's later ranting style. On that recording Roy played some kind of long necked mandolin style instrument, (?bazooki, ?spelling). The whole thing was Incredible String Band like. The Corries recorded a number of ISB member Robin Williamson's (no relation) songs at this time, including October Song. Georgiansilver, while I also am uncomfortable with the anti sentiments of this song, I am even more upset when someone sings, God save the King/Queen. This is an anti Scots song from the Jacobite Rebellion, and well into the 1960s was still printed and sung by some, with the verse urging God to lay the vile Scots low and confound their politics. A number of the Corries albums have been rereleased on CD as twofers The Fonatna, EMI and their own Dara labels. They certainly turn up on ebay uk from time to time. Should be able to get them somewhere online. Dita. |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: GUEST,Mingulay Date: 24 Sep 04 - 09:05 AM It seems to me no wonder that Flower of Scotland contains anti English sentiments. When you consider what we have done to the country and its citizens over the years just so that some Surrey stockbroker can shoot at deer, those sentiments are quite mild. It also strikes me as rather odd that a bunch of German aristo's should latch so avidly on to things Scottish given the words of their recently adopted country's anthem snd the chronological closeness of the events referred to. However, none of this detracts from the song for me and,in fact, I would much rather sing F of S than God Save the Queen. |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: Georgiansilver Date: 24 Sep 04 - 09:33 AM I have a Corries live LP which ends with one of them saying "It is traditional to sing the National Anthem when ending a performance.....but we'll sing you another song anyway" and they sing F of S...much to the pleasure of the Scottish audience. Best wishes. |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: GUEST Date: 24 Sep 04 - 10:55 AM FoS is a great song. A mans A man isn't! This is of course why FoS wins hands down in the Scottish National Anthem stakes. Plus, like any good anthem, most people would be hard pressed to sing more than the first verse of FoS. |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: kendall Date: 24 Sep 04 - 02:59 PM It's a bit militant, but I also like SHEHALLION by Gordon Menzies of the duo, GABERLUNZIE. While painting the walls today it kept going through my mind. |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: Fliss Date: 24 Sep 04 - 06:16 PM http://www.corries.com/ Corries site is run by Gavin Browne, son of Ronnie Browne Site sells all their CDS and song books etc fliss |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: GUEST,Boab Date: 25 Sep 04 - 02:41 AM Just a wee remark--for the benefit of all "anti-nationalists" and those who see "anti-Englishness " in the Flower--try a check on the song which has been long accepted as the National anthem of Scotland---"Scots Wha Hae" by Robert Burns.Now THERE is anti-English sentiment! Not often criticised for it though.... |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: GUEST Date: 05 Dec 04 - 03:36 PM I need free sheet music...Can any1 suggest a link. |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: masato sakurai Date: 05 Dec 04 - 08:19 PM Try Google (Images) Search: flower of scotland. |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: open mike Date: 13 Jan 09 - 10:13 PM try here http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://breizhpartitions.free.fr/tf.php/312_Flower_of_Scotland.gif&imgrefurl=http://breizhpartitions.free.fr/en/download_score.php/160_Flower_of_Scotland&usg=__C045tbpz5EaGECMomBXVFftdtik=&h=438&w=813&sz=11&hl=en&start=2&tbnid=htngsxbM7uKfRM:&tbnh=78&tbnw=144&prev=/images%3Fq%3D%2522flower%2Bof%2Bscotland%2522%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: Bryn Pugh Date: 14 Jan 09 - 04:47 AM Yes, but do you 'google' this or knit it ? |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: GUEST,goatfell Date: 14 Jan 09 - 07:44 AM I got this from a website https://www.theballadeers.com/scots/cor_1990_flower.htm (sleeve notes from the Flower of Scotland album: We were resting between shots of a film I was making with The Corries, when Roy Williamson asked if I'd like to hear his new song Needing no answer to his question he launched the words into the clear air. The song was 'Flower Of Scotland'. The short tune had a fine dirl to it with rising skirls and cadences but also a hint of lamentation and bray of defiance. It was so authentically rooted in Scots tradition that it could have sprung from no other folk culture in the world. We filmed him singing it there and then. Some strange alchemy makes songs popular. As least a dozen ballads, turfed out of one musical or another, went on to become international standards, hymns, pub songs, music hall ditties, sea shanties however unlikely their provenance, they're all part of our musical heritage. If we knew what the magic was we'd all make a million. Sadly, Roy Wiiliamson died in August 1990. Over the years, as The Corries sang 'Flower Of Scotland at folk clubs and on national concert tours, it became their rallying cry and by that powerful osmosis of folk culture, caught the fancy of a nation looking for an anthem. By the time Roy's song started echoing round the football terraces of the world, whose choristers found in it something that their hearts desired, who rejoiced in the lyric's fervent patriotism. 'Flower Of Scotland' had become a phenomenon. It's rendering at Murrayfield, led lustily by every member of the 1990 Grand Slam Squad, probably put the Scots into the game against the English with phantom points already on the scoreboard! I was involved with The Comes from their professional beginnings in many broadcasting and theatrical adventures. It has been too easy over the years to dismiss their stage and television performances as rabble-rousing singsong. They certainly knew how to please the punters, yet every concert and recording session plucked other strings. Familiar ballads set in unfamiliar time, strange tuning on even stranger instruments, new melodies and harmonies seemingly woven into the web of musical antiquity. It was this musicianship, this sensitivity to the folk idiom, Roy's disciplined invention and craft coupled with Ronnie Brownes sweet lyric tenor voice and ebullient personality that set The Corries apart. This celebration of The Conies' contribution to Scottish Folk music is founded on the fame and popularity of 'Flower Of Scotland' but represents the broad sweep of their repertoire and instrumentation. There is a Jacobite song, of course, there are traditionally romantic ballads, a heightened emphasis of contemporary comedy, several sea shanties, a whiff of Scottish nationalism, a sleepy lullaby and Ronnie's powerful rendering of Judy Small's modem anti-war song 'Mothers, Daughters, Wives'. The moods swing from stirring march tempo to soulful pathos, from rousing polemic to social comment with a sting in its tail, from lovelorn longing to Flower Of Scotland's own compulsive mixture of lament and swagger. Throughout, as usual, the response of an audience is often there to remind you how much you should be enjoying yourself. W. Gordon Smith Edinburgh August 1990 |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: maple_leaf_boy Date: 02 Aug 10 - 01:47 PM I taught myself this tune on the pipes. I know the Gaelic lyrics for it, but I've been searching for a recording of someone singing it in Gaelic. Does anyone know who sings it, on youtube? Thanks. |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: Jack Campin Date: 02 Aug 10 - 02:16 PM You can find it on the web in Klingon, will that do? It was so authentically rooted in Scots tradition that it could have sprung from no other folk culture in the world. The tune is a variant of the Chorus of the Hebrew Slaves from Verdi's "Nabucco". It's hard to credit W. Gordon Smith's arselicking over this one when he'd written a much better song himself, "Come by the Hills". |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: BobKnight Date: 02 Aug 10 - 08:01 PM This song gets a bad name as being anti-English - it's NOT. It's pro-Scottish. It is most definitly about the battle of Bannockburn, which took place in 1314. Edward the Second came across the border with a huge English army, and was met by Robert The Bruce and the Scottish army, just outside the town of Stirling. The ground was very boggy, which didn't suit the English with their heavy horses. The Scots were outnumbers 3-4 to one, but because of the ground being so well chosen, the English couldn't bring the entire mass of their army to bear against the Scots. The Scots won, and routed the English. The victory finally re-established Scots independence, although it was quite a few years before the English acknowleged the fact. The meaning of the song is that these men were the flower of Scotland, and established Scottish independence, and as the lyrics say, "When will we see their like again?" It's disliked by the Unionist parties because of that message, so they try to piss on it, but the people of Scotland, generally speaking, love it. |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: GUEST,ActiusAquila Date: 11 Feb 19 - 07:32 PM There's several websites out there that seem to say that while Roy wrote the lyrics to "Flower of Scotland", someone named Peter Dodds McCormick was the song's composer, and that the melody actually existed since 1879 or so. I however can't find a single song that McCormick wrote that sounds like Flower of Scotland and it's often said that Roy wrote AND composed the song. But McCormick WAS a Scot and he did compose Australia's national anthem- not that it sounds like Flower of Scotland, though. Also, he apparently wrote a few Scottish folk songs and if Roy knew about his music I wouldn't be surprised. Can any mudcatters verify/ deny that Roy composed Flower of Scotland? Also, if he didn't write the music (the Corries apparently did not write music, according to Ronnie), what did McCormick call the melody? I can't find anything on the internet and I like to believe that Roy did the composing. |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: goatfell Date: 12 Feb 19 - 05:22 AM Freedom come all ye is about a reply to the Harold McMillian speech about South Africa and the winds of change and has nothing to with Scotland |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: GUEST,kenny Date: 12 Feb 19 - 06:36 AM I have an original copy of the commercially sold sheet music for "Flower Of Scotland" / "The Roses Of Prince Charlie" - I'm looking at it right now. "The Flower Of Scotland" Words AND MUSIC* : Roy Williamson. * [ my emphasis ] "The Roses Of Prince Charlie" : Author : R.G. Browne - Composer : R.G. Browne Th Corries certainly did compose music. I think possibly what Ronnie meant was that they maybe did not "write" music using staff notation - "the dots". |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: GUEST,Alan Date: 12 Feb 19 - 07:49 AM I can now see this information on McCormick several sites. Like Chinese whispers a viral piece with no source and no explanation of what the alleged earlier work is based on. If it is a derivation all fine, at least name they should name the source and alleged tune. Otherwise I find it extraordinary that people keep having to come up with earlier derivations of works, and can't accept that songwriters come up with an original popular tune and lyrics, or sometimes both separately, without it being directly taken from an earlier source. Someone has to have written a tune in the first place. If someone can name the alleged work fine, but otherwise these sites stating this about McCormick, are guilty of slurring the memory of a writer (though I don't actually like the words of 'Flower of Scotland', but you can't fault it for being an 'earworm' melody!) |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: GUEST,Alan Date: 12 Feb 19 - 07:51 AM Sorry, about the gibberish. Reading back, my words don't quite make sense.. but you'll get the gist |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: Dave Hanson Date: 12 Feb 19 - 09:57 AM Bob Knight, it is anti English, Dick Gaughan mentioned this many years ago when Flower Of Scotland was mooted as a possible Scottish National Anthem, he said it was wouldn't be a good choice because of it's anti English and negative sentiments. It is a fine song nonetheless. Dave H |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: GUEST,kenny Date: 12 Feb 19 - 10:09 AM That's Dick Gaughan's opinion, not worth any more than Bob's as far as I'm concerned. As far as I know, Roy Williamson never intended it to be anti-English. |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: GUEST Date: 12 Feb 19 - 10:57 AM I am sure Roy did not intend it to be anti-English. Nevertheless, it celebrates and sentimentalises (“wee bit hill and glen”) a long-ago military victory against England. Many of us pro-Indy Scots are very uncomfortable with that focus, and would rather seek songs that celebrate Scotland in its own right and its traditions of internationalism. It’s quite right to say that The Freedom Come-All-Ye was a response to Macmillan’s Winds of Change speech, but it is also thoroughly - on every line - about Scotland and about Scotland coming to terms with its past and finding a new place in a post-imperial world. |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: GUEST,Dave D Date: 12 Feb 19 - 10:58 AM Oops that last post was me |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: GUEST,kenny Date: 12 Feb 19 - 12:03 PM Nothing you've written there that I'd disagree with, Dave. |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: Dave Hanson Date: 12 Feb 19 - 02:54 PM Don't get wrong I still think it's a great song. Dave H |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: GUEST,Miranda Date: 13 Feb 19 - 09:46 AM Yeah I love Flower of Scotland too; it's the kind of song that makes your hair stand on end. As an anthem it's supposed to be a "this is Scotland, hear us roar" kind of song and it's great at doing that, especially when Ronnie Browne belts it out, but some people don't want it to be and I'm still not to sure why. So is it a lament? Is it a hymn? Is it anti-English? Anyhow, bringing this up because it's still not Scotland's anthem and I have no idea why not. Maybe it could be like Sweden where they agree that "Du Gamla Du Fria" shouldn't be an anthem by law and it's better if it were an anthem by tradition but why not just make Flower of Scotland the anthem already? (I'm sorry if this is a bit of a strange question, I'm not from the UK.) |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: GUEST,Allan Conn Date: 13 Feb 19 - 09:53 AM Miranda it is Scotland's anthem for most things. It is played before both football and rugby matches. The Commonwealth Games uses Scotland The Brave but that is more the exception. |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: GUEST,ActiusAquila Date: 13 Feb 19 - 09:55 AM I recall reading that it was Roy's personal composition and that he hadn't actually wanted to perform it until Ronnie asked him to, but I've forgotten where that was from. Anyway, the Corries were always pro-independence, and they obviously did a lot of the '45 songs- those are almost always anti English (but they are very, very catchy, just look at "Killiecrankie"). Ronnie was in an interview saying that Roy had been trying to antiquate the Flower of Scotland melody to make it sound more like their usual Jacobite repertoire, so if the lyrics were also very Jacobite-ish- aka anti-English- it's not actually surprising. Perhaps Roy half-accidentally-intended to make it anti English? He wanted the song to sound folkish, after all. |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: GUEST,Allan Conn Date: 13 Feb 19 - 12:59 PM I wouldn't say that Jacobite songs are almost always anti-English! Anti Hanovarian yes but that is a different thing. The example you give "Killiecrankie" isn't even not anti-English - it isn't even pro-Jacobite. It is purely descriptive. Lots of other Jacobite songs or supposed Jacobite songs or Jacobite period songs don't or hardly mention "the English" for instance Bonnie Dundee, Sound The Pibroch, Skye Boat Song, Highland Widow's Lament, Ye Jacobites By Name, Cam ye o'er Frae France, etc etc Yes there are some old Scottish songs that refer to conflict with England but that is because that is our history. You can't white wash it. Likewise even FOS is clear the conflict is in the past and should remain in the past. |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: GUEST,DTM Date: 13 Feb 19 - 02:09 PM Re. FoS being anti English. Just for the record, who was invading who? ;-) |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: Dave Hanson Date: 13 Feb 19 - 02:37 PM No one, it's a recently written song. Dave H |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: Tattie Bogle Date: 13 Feb 19 - 04:50 PM It didn't sound anti-English in its original form IMHO: more gentle and reflective, I thought. It has become more martial-sounding in its later reincarnations at big sporting events, perhaps, although you can still sit side by side with the other side's supporters at England v Scotland rugby internationals without anyone getting pugilistic over it. |
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Subject: RE: The Flower of Scotland From: GUEST,Allan Conn Date: 13 Feb 19 - 06:48 PM My better half, who hails from south of the border, once said to me that it shouldn't be sung at the rugby etc because it would offend the Queen and Princess Anne etc. It hadn't ever struck her that they are descended from Robert the Bruce who is celebrated in the song ?? |
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