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The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version

DigiTrad:
GLENCOE


Related threads:
(origins) Origin: Glencoe Massacre (Jim McLean) (62)
Tune Req: Glencoe (15)
(origins) Origins: Snows of Glencoe / Massacre of Glencoe (15)
Lyr Req: The Massacre Of Glencoe (37)
Chords Req: Glencoe (23)
Tune Req: Ballad of Glencoe (10)
(origins) Origins: Ballad of Glencoe / Massacre of Glencoe (39)
History & Present: Glencoe Massacre (46)


GUEST,Nick 26 Jul 02 - 08:29 AM
GUEST,Angus Campbell 26 Jul 02 - 08:37 AM
GUEST,Jim McLean 26 Jul 02 - 08:38 AM
Tiger 28 Jul 02 - 10:02 AM
GUEST,Boab 29 Jul 02 - 04:24 AM
GUEST 23 Mar 04 - 04:20 PM
GUEST,MMario 23 Mar 04 - 04:24 PM
Dave Hanson 24 Mar 04 - 05:16 AM
MC Fat 24 Mar 04 - 05:23 AM
weerover 24 Mar 04 - 05:24 AM
Dave Hanson 24 Mar 04 - 05:32 AM
GUEST,Crystal 24 Mar 04 - 05:48 AM
GUEST,Mary 07 May 04 - 12:22 AM
GUEST,Bonnie Prince Charlie 07 May 04 - 06:32 AM
Jim McLean 07 May 04 - 11:01 AM
GUEST,hanfpiraten@aol.com 07 May 04 - 11:15 PM
GUEST,harris 02 Jan 07 - 06:14 PM
kendall 02 Jan 07 - 07:17 PM
Cluin 02 Jan 07 - 07:23 PM
GUEST,Dale 02 Jan 07 - 07:57 PM
Ned Ludd 03 Jan 07 - 07:11 AM
kendall 03 Jan 07 - 07:51 AM
GUEST,Terry McDonald 03 Jan 07 - 10:47 AM
Scrump 03 Jan 07 - 02:31 PM
Ned Ludd 03 Jan 07 - 07:27 PM
GUEST,Coreyanne 24 Mar 07 - 02:23 AM
robinia 24 Mar 07 - 04:28 AM
kendall 24 Mar 07 - 07:51 AM
Sandy Mc Lean 24 Mar 07 - 08:58 AM
GUEST,meself 24 Mar 07 - 09:54 AM
GUEST,Nig 24 Mar 07 - 11:58 AM
Sandy Mc Lean 24 Mar 07 - 02:21 PM
GUEST,Terry McDonald 24 Mar 07 - 02:31 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 24 Mar 07 - 04:10 PM
Jim Lad 24 Mar 07 - 04:27 PM
GUEST,Terry McDonald 24 Mar 07 - 04:28 PM
Jim Lad 24 Mar 07 - 04:39 PM
Jim Lad 24 Mar 07 - 04:52 PM
GUEST,Terry McDonald 24 Mar 07 - 05:35 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 24 Mar 07 - 05:37 PM
Jim Lad 24 Mar 07 - 06:09 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 24 Mar 07 - 06:10 PM
Jim Lad 24 Mar 07 - 06:19 PM
GUEST,meself 24 Mar 07 - 07:51 PM
Jim Lad 24 Mar 07 - 09:20 PM
GUEST,meself 24 Mar 07 - 09:36 PM
GUEST,Terry McDonald 25 Mar 07 - 03:40 AM
robinia 25 Mar 07 - 09:53 AM
GUEST,meself 25 Mar 07 - 10:28 AM
Jim Lad 25 Mar 07 - 12:15 PM
Alaska Mike 25 Mar 07 - 12:27 PM
GUEST,Terry McDonald 25 Mar 07 - 12:40 PM
Jim Lad 25 Mar 07 - 12:58 PM
GUEST,Terry McDonald 25 Mar 07 - 01:02 PM
Jim Lad 25 Mar 07 - 04:39 PM
GUEST,Terry McDonald 25 Mar 07 - 05:10 PM
Jim McLean 25 Mar 07 - 05:21 PM
GUEST,Terry McDonald 25 Mar 07 - 05:48 PM
Jim Lad 25 Mar 07 - 06:15 PM
GUEST,meself 25 Mar 07 - 06:54 PM
Jim Lad 25 Mar 07 - 06:57 PM
GUEST,Terry McDonald 25 Mar 07 - 07:15 PM
GUEST,Jim McLean 26 Mar 07 - 05:06 AM
Jim Lad 26 Mar 07 - 05:24 AM
Jim McLean 26 Mar 07 - 05:37 AM
jacqui.c 26 Mar 07 - 09:06 AM
GUEST,Terry McDonald 26 Mar 07 - 09:15 AM
guitar 26 Mar 07 - 11:34 AM
Sandy Mc Lean 26 Mar 07 - 11:46 AM
GUEST,Terry McDonald 26 Mar 07 - 11:53 AM
GUEST,meself 26 Mar 07 - 12:10 PM
GUEST,Terry McDonald 26 Mar 07 - 12:27 PM
GUEST,meself 26 Mar 07 - 12:43 PM
GUEST,Terry McDonald 26 Mar 07 - 01:16 PM
Jim Lad 26 Mar 07 - 01:27 PM
Jim McLean 26 Mar 07 - 01:39 PM
GUEST,meself 26 Mar 07 - 01:41 PM
Jim Lad 26 Mar 07 - 01:46 PM
GUEST,Terry McDonald 26 Mar 07 - 02:05 PM
Jim McLean 26 Mar 07 - 03:37 PM
GUEST,Terry McDonald 26 Mar 07 - 04:07 PM
GUEST,meself 26 Mar 07 - 05:18 PM
Jim Lad 26 Mar 07 - 06:06 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 26 Mar 07 - 06:15 PM
Jim Lad 26 Mar 07 - 06:24 PM
GUEST,Bardan 26 Mar 07 - 11:00 PM
GUEST,meself 26 Mar 07 - 11:14 PM
Jim Lad 27 Mar 07 - 12:01 AM
Sandy Mc Lean 27 Mar 07 - 04:57 AM
GUEST,HAMISH A MCDONALD 03 Apr 07 - 05:45 PM
Jim Lad 03 Apr 07 - 05:58 PM
GUEST,meself 03 Apr 07 - 06:03 PM
MystMoonstruck 07 Sep 07 - 02:28 AM
GUEST,legionareuk 29 Feb 08 - 08:20 PM
meself 29 Feb 08 - 09:44 PM
Ross Campbell 01 Mar 08 - 08:44 PM
GUEST 14 Aug 11 - 09:30 AM
Jim McLean 14 Aug 11 - 10:29 AM
ollaimh 14 Aug 11 - 12:48 PM
Leadfingers 14 Aug 11 - 01:18 PM
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Brian May 14 Aug 11 - 04:00 PM
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Subject: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: GUEST,Nick
Date: 26 Jul 02 - 08:29 AM

Now that Jim McLean visits this site...I loved to hear which version is your favorite, Jim. The first version I ever heard was the Corries and its still my favorite. Anyone else?

Nick


Search for "glencoe" threads

Glencoe in the Digital Tradition.


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: GUEST,Angus Campbell
Date: 26 Jul 02 - 08:37 AM

None of them, they are all shite.


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: GUEST,Jim McLean
Date: 26 Jul 02 - 08:38 AM

There are so many versions, Nick, from Tommy Scott, Kenneth McKeller, Moira Anderson, Nigel Denver (the first to record it) but I think my favourite is Alastair McDonald on Scotland in Song, a Nevis LP, produced by myself in 1972! There's also a good pipe version by The Black Watch. Bill Garden's Scottish Orchestra did an instrumental version and the inlay card featured Glencoe on the cover. Inside, however, he chose to copyright it as Glen of Glens!! The PRS boys caught him, though. Cheers, Jim


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: Tiger
Date: 28 Jul 02 - 10:02 AM

John McDermott, from the "Old Friends" album.


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 29 Jul 02 - 04:24 AM

My own---sittin' in the bath-------


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 04:20 PM

can i get the words of the massacre of glencoe song


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 04:24 PM

guest - click on the link above that says "glencoe"


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 05:16 AM

OK Angus Campbell, but you know the old saying ' never trust a Campbell '
eric


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: MC Fat
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 05:23 AM

Sorry Jim but they caught me playing a banjo at the Runswick Bay Fund Raiser and a parody of your fine song is in the MC Fat comes out thread


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: weerover
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 05:24 AM

When Rory MacDonald owned the Clachaig inn in Glencoe there was a sign in the bar reading "No Campbells".

wr.


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 05:32 AM

An old friend of mine once got conned into asking for a ' Glen Campbell ' whisky at the Clachaig Inn, he got a polite refusal.
eric


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: GUEST,Crystal
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 05:48 AM

I know a guy called Campbell...
that is his first name though so maybe he'd be OK!
I like the Corries version of the song to, It is very easy to sing.


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: GUEST,Mary
Date: 07 May 04 - 12:22 AM

The Campbells continue to betray us, here in British Columbia. Gordon Campbell is our premier. He's lied to us on every front. He befriended us at the last election and we took him in - now the massacre is playing out. We have people living on the streets, children tossed out of their foster homes, health services being sold off to the highest bidder, public highways and railroads are threatened with privatization. It's a cruel and heartless government!
Never trust a Campbell.

Mary


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: GUEST,Bonnie Prince Charlie
Date: 07 May 04 - 06:32 AM

Och... Get over it... I'm faer turnin in me grave, dinnae tar all the campbells wi' the same brush.

I'm off tae find ma favourite rendition o' the massacreee of glencoe, I've a grand ole version somewhere in me boat.

Tis surely a nice song!

Most finest regards

Chuckie


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: Jim McLean
Date: 07 May 04 - 11:01 AM

I never wrote the song to be specifically anti Campbell, it's just that they were the final perpetrators of a vile deed, planned in Scotland (not by the Campbells) and sanctioned by King William.


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: GUEST,hanfpiraten@aol.com
Date: 07 May 04 - 11:15 PM

These are the words of the "Ballad of Glencoe":
Ballad of Glencoe
Chorus
Oh, cruel was the snow that sweeps Glencoe
And covers the grave o' Donald.
Oh, cruel was the foe that raped Glencoe
And murdered the house of MacDonald
They came in a blizzard, we offered them heat,
A roof for their heads, dry shoes for their feet.
We wined them and dined them, they ate of our meat
And they slept in the house of MacDonald.
Chorus
They came from Fort William with murder in mind.
The Campbell had orders King William had signed.
"Put all to the sword"- these words underlined,
"And leave none alive called MacDonald."
Chorus
They came in the night when the men were asleep,
This band of Argyles, through snow soft and deep,
Like murdering foxes amongst helpless sheep,
They slaughtered the house of MacDonald.
Chorus
Some died in their beds at the hand of the foe;
Some fled in the night and were lost in the snow;
Some lived to accuse him who struck the first blow;
But gone was the house of MacDonald.
Chorus


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: GUEST,harris
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 06:14 PM

if the words to this don't make you weep, then you can't have a heart,


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: kendall
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 07:17 PM

I was in Glen Coe back in 1988, and I saw a sign on the lawn of a hotel that said "No dogs or Campbells" My wife's maiden name was Campbell.

What Scottish history I know tells me that it was mostly the doing of the Kings man, Dalrymple, who had the knife out for the MacDonalds. He ordered the massacre and the Campbells were only following orders. Where have we heard that before?

Didn't the MacDonalds attack the MacLeods while they were in church?


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: Cluin
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 07:23 PM

Pride of the Campbells.


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: GUEST,Dale
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 07:57 PM

"I had a friend named Campbell, who used to rob, steal and gamble . . . " ~~ Jimmie Rodgers.


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: Ned Ludd
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 07:11 AM

My favourite is the Corries. It brings back memories of a dissolute lifestyle for a few years in Edinburgh. Thanks for the song Jim!


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: kendall
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 07:51 AM

Let's face it, most songs about historical events play fast and loose with the truth.


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 10:47 AM

Jim McLean? I always thought it was written by Alistair MacDonald!

My favourite version? Like other people, my own............though I haven't bothered singing it in years. The tune's a bit twee.


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: Scrump
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 02:31 PM

For my money, the version by Mad Jocks and Englishmen was hard to beat (anyone else remember them?)


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: Ned Ludd
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 07:27 PM

Mad Jocks and Englishmen? Thought I saw them about 2 years ago at Saltburn folk fest, but you talk as if they are long gone. Was this another band of the same name? ( Some of the members were a little mature, but one was an attractive young lady who may have been 'guesting' with them)


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: GUEST,Coreyanne
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 02:23 AM

I just heard this song for the first time on a CD by the St. Thomas Episcopal Pipe Band (from Houston, Texas - the five time Juvenile World Champions.) I really enojyed this version - Some girls singing it through, then violin, then the pipes, then onto "Here come the Campbells" and then a reprise of Glencoe on pipes. It's on their CD called "Impressions." I'm not sure of the legality of sharing a song over the internet, but if you want to hear it, there is a snippet on their website where you can order the CD - part of the Ballad and part of the Campbells are on the short excerpt.


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: robinia
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 04:28 AM

Re "never trust a Campbell."   The longstanding anti-Campbell feeling is conveyed in a funny story about a Scot talking to another Scot (a Campbell) and spitting every time he says his name. When asked why, he explains that it's nothing personal, nothing to do with his friendship for this particular man, but "you spit whenever you say the name Campbell."
It's a nice distinction. Between the name, with its infamous historical baggage, and the man. I make a similar distinction between man and office, and it cuts both ways.   I may revile Mr. Bush, for instance, but I respect the office of president, and in the unlikely event of being invited to the White House would refrain from spitting.


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: kendall
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 07:51 AM

I'd get far more pleasure out of declining the invitation than accepting it.


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 08:58 AM

The MacDonalds did indeed attack and kill MacLeods while they were in church. It was in retaliation for the Eigg Cave Massacre in which about 400 MacDonald men women and children were killed by the MacLeods. Scotland's history runs dark with bloody fueds resulting in events much worse than the Glencoe Massacre. What sets that one aside was the treachery of the enemy posing as friends. There was an unwritten code that was violated and that was considered a greater crime than the killing.
Due to the Highland Clearances many descendants of these people landed on Cape Breton Island, and there is also a place named Glencoe here where both Cambell and MacDonald have live peacefully side by side.
                     Slainte,
                         Sandy


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 09:54 AM

I suppose I have no sense of humour or something, but I find anti-Campbell prejudice no more amusing or justified than prejudice against people on the basis of race, religion, sex, sexual orientation, etc.

(Nothing against the song).


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: GUEST,Nig
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 11:58 AM

Favourite: Jenny Selfe on Like a Bird on the Wing.
I think there's a clip at http://www.pilgrimsall.org/magicalsounds/fr000106list.htm
Nig


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 02:21 PM

Meself makes a point but there is prejudice of some sort in the heart of all of us. My own prejudice is against fat-cat political leaders who rob the poor to help their wealthy friends. I really hate the bastards!
That being said the Campbells were the political power in the Scottish Highlands by appointment of the English king. Their leaders ruling legacy was not one of love for other clans. They were not a downtrodden group being bullied in any way, so goodnatured humour of today among their descendants ( most of whom have common bloodlines, MacDonald, MacLeod, MacLean, Campbell etc.) is not racist.
             Fear eile arson Eachain!
                         Sandy


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 02:31 PM

Would this 'English king' be a member of the Stuart dynasty by any chance?


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 04:10 PM

No, King Billy and his crew but the Stuarts themselves were English after Jame1/6 and sold Scotland out years earlier.


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: Jim Lad
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 04:27 PM

Sandy: Did I drive you to Glendale after a party, one morning?
I have been singing that song for years and got a lot of pleasure out of it. I've been asked to record it, a number of times (one is a number) but have, so far, resisted.
That's a great song, Jim. There could be a future in this business for the likes of yourself!

CRUACHAN!!


Jim


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 04:28 PM

So, if I understand it correctly, the moment James VI became James I he lost his Scottishness, and his son (born in Scotland) and grandson were therefore totally English. And, I gather, William III, a Dutchman, also became English the moment he arrived in Britain.
Funny old world, isn't it? Someday you must tell me about the McLeans - I'd hate to think there might be some English ones.

What would the world do without the English to criticise?


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: Jim Lad
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 04:39 PM

Just by the way.
I have an awful habit of running a whole bunch of songs together, a medley, I suppose. It's a wee trick I learned in a pub one night when a fight broke out.
Anyway, it's a real nightmare for anybody playing along with me but I very often start the third set with; The Massacre of Glencoe then merge into Flower O' Scotland pick it up into Sound the Pibroch and from there I may take it to Maid of Fife, Johnny Lad, Killiecrankie
or any other tunes in "March" depending on how long I can hold onto the plectrum. I think it works really well. I even got asked back to one place but I was out and missed the phone call.
Thanks again, Jim. I've ridden you hard.


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: Jim Lad
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 04:52 PM

Ah Terry: James the sixth took the Crown from Edinburgh to London. One reason for this was that London was and remains a far more robust market centre and therefor a more appropriate setting for the head of state. Another sociological reason, lost to many, is that Edinburgh stunk. Literally! Was absolutely filthy. Raw sewage was thrown from the windows to the shouts of "Gardez Lou" (Edinburgh French) and festered there until the rains washed it down the gutters. It was not fit for a king.
And so, "To the Victor goes the spoils" we took over in London. Scotland won! No matter how many bards have written of the day that Scotland would finally succeed, it is an undeniable fact that we did and we buggered it up.
I think I explained it best when I wrote "A Parcel of Rogues".


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 05:35 PM

As a member of the oppressed majority, I can't argue with that, Jim Lad!


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 05:37 PM

No Jim, you didn't drive me from Glendale. I could make a guess that it was perhaps Sandy MacDonald who lives in that area and is a hell of a lot better guitar player than me.
Sorry Terry but I don't want to enter into a debate. Only trying to put context in the song being discussed.


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: Jim Lad
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 06:09 PM

Terry: The man who wrote the song that we're talking about is here. Why don't we take this opportunity to show a little appreciation for a tremendous piece of art.
You can get us all fired up, another time.
I'll enjoy that too!
Cheers
Jim


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 06:10 PM

http://www.electricscotland.com/books/paterson/glencoe.htm


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: Jim Lad
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 06:19 PM

With regards to King William's hand in this: He had no axe to grind with the MacDonalds and saw no need for the action taken.
He was, at most, indifferent to the plight of those who died and was guilty only of allowing an ambitious underling (whose name escapes me right now) to follow his own twisted agenda. I'm not actually sure that he knew of an intended massacre. Perhaps some of our scholars will set that straight.
Regardless, you're hearing this from one who was certainly not raised to defend the reputation of one Prince William of Orange but there you have it.


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 07:51 PM

I recommend the book Glencoe by John Prebbles.


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: Jim Lad
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 09:20 PM

Who wrote it?
Quiet Saturday night, Meself?
Cheers from the wet coast.


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 09:36 PM

Who wrote it? Um - I believe I heard someone say John Prebbles. He's an Anglo-Canuckian who for some reason became intrigued by Scottish history and wrote a series of non-fiction books on related themes. Very readable, packed with information, and sensible interpretation.

Here's a Wiki entry on him.

Yup, quiet Saturday night here in Pugwash. I've still got this !@#$ cold, so had to pass up an invite for supper and a friend's brother's band playing for the ski-bums in the Wentworth Valley ...

Cheers back atcha!


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 03:40 AM

Morning Jim Lad - I wasn't trying to get anyone 'fired up', just objecting to the inappropriate use of the term 'English.'

Re the song - I don't think it's a tremendous piece of art, but that's just my opinion/taste. I am very well aware of how popular it is/was and used to sing it in the early 70s, for two reasons. The first was that it amused me to sing songs about what people assume must be my ancestors (actually, my surname is Newfoundland-Irish) and the second was that I had a 'hit' on my hands. There are plenty of traditional English songs that I think are wonderful but I suspect audiences don't always share my enthusiasm. The Massacre of Glencoe always received generous applause, particularly when sung to audiences from outside of the folk club world.


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: robinia
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 09:53 AM

Re "anti-Campbell prejudice"   -- The whole point of my story was separation of historical memory from ordinary human relations. In other words, "you spit when you say the name Campbell" DIDN'T mean that the spitting Scot had anything against this particular Campbell or indeed any living Campbell. It didn't mean that he was prejudiced "against Campbells" in the way that "myself" takes it--only, at least as I heard the story (a made up one, I suspect) that he remembered a historic betrayal of hospitality that has indeed clung to the name.

An impossible distinction? How would I like to have MY name reviled?

As a matter of fact, I vividly remember a singaround in a Highland pub where we started singing "The Rape of Glencoe" and a Campbell jumped up and loudly objected. Nobody was going to sing that scurrilous song in his presence. He was quite forceful about it too, rising to victimhood with boisterous theatricality.

Somehow, it was hard to see him as any more oppressed than the people of Banff, who 300 years ago "pit the clock an hour afore and hanged him [MacPherson] tae a tree." THAT's still remembered in scurrilous folksong too, still "held against" the town....


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 10:28 AM

I don't understand your position on this - you seem to be saying that nobody has a prejudice against Campbells, but if they do, it's okay ...

And, sorry, but I have known of Campbells being sneered at on the basis of the Glencoe massacre. I don't think it's right. Let bygones be bygones; let he who has never sinned, etc.


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: Jim Lad
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 12:15 PM

Actually, they never hanged Macpherson at all. The belligerent young man put the noose over his own head and jumped, to deprive them of the pleasure. Had he waited through the pomp and ceremony, as any condemned soul is obliged to do, he may well have received his eleventh hour reprieve. That was the point of the story.
Terry: I hadn't noticed the spelling of your name but I'll bet, I'd have picked up on the pronunciation, had we met.
Good to know that you found the song worthy of your performance.
Good Morning all from the Cool. Sunny Highlands of Vancouver Island.
Cheers
Jim


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: Alaska Mike
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 12:27 PM

Perhaps if my Campbell ancestors had done a more thorough job at Glencoe there would be fewer fast food hamburger joints.

Mike


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 12:40 PM

Jim - I'm English but my father and the five generations before him were Newfoundlanders. I can do a pretty good Newfoundland accent, though - being from Dorset helps! I'm also a Canadianist and was Editor of the British Journal of Canadian Studies for four years.

I actually sang Glencoe a couple of weeks ago, in a pub's open mic session. I think the basic chord sequence (in the verse) appeals to non-folkies.


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: Jim Lad
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 12:58 PM

The pronunciation I was referring to was the "Mc" versus the "Mac".
As for your English accent, no need to apologize.
Grin
Jim


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 01:02 PM

We write it with the 'c' up in the air....


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: Jim Lad
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 04:39 PM

And when we drink our tea, do we hold the pinky up in the air also?
It's a fine song. Come on. You can say it!


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 05:10 PM

Jim....I never expected such a stereotypical response! Hope you wear a check shirt and say 'eh!' at the end of every sentence.....

No - it's not a fine song, but it is a very commercial one and I was (and am) conscious of how popular it is. Doesn't sound like a 'folk song' to me, though. Deliberately learned it all those years ago for the reasons I cited earlier. (I also like playing it - nice chords)


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: Jim McLean
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 05:21 PM

I,ve just seen this thread again and I find it amusing how it has affected some people. I wrote it as I did many other historical songs, based on research and recorded facts.
Jim Lad, Mc and Mac or M' (open quote) are all the same. There is an intersting page in the notes to Johnson's Musical Museum where the name McGibbon is spelled McGibbon, MacGibbon and M (small, underlined c), all, I repeat on the same page. It's purely a matter of spelling in the 18th and 19th century and all would have been pronounced exactly the same.


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 05:48 PM

Jim McLean - nice to hear from the writer! I genuinely thought it had been written by Alistair MacDonald and even said so in a thread about it in 2003. Oops!

My only criticism (or perhaps 'comment) is that it doesn't sound like a 'traditional' or 'folk' song - the chords are just too modern. Everyone likes it, though, and I'm not the only person to sing it at the folk club I go to each Thursday. Interestingly, the other singer, uses just three chords. What sequence did you use when you wrote it?


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: Jim Lad
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 06:15 PM

Jim. You're wrong.
Cheers
Jim


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 06:54 PM

Terry - sounds like your criticism is of a certain recorded version - the Alistair MacDonald one, presumably? - rather than of the song itself (lyrics + melody) - right?

I think this should be made clear if you're talking to the man who wrote the song!


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: Jim Lad
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 06:57 PM

Re The Glencoe Massacre: John Dalrymple, The Master of Stair took charge of the Royal Ordinance that every highland clan chief must abandon his Stuart loyalty. Although I had forgotten his name, I remember the story well because Jim McLean's song prompted me to research this piece of history, many years ago as opposed to accepting the English indoctrination that passes for "History" in our schools. If that doesn't say something about the relevance of this song with regards to the "Folk Process" then I may well be, uncharacteristically, at a loss for words. Thanks again for the song, Jim.
Names: John, Jack, Jock & Johnny may all be John at birth but to deny the difference is to deny the identity of the individual.
I frequently get Hamish, Seamus, James and believe it or not "Jim Lad" from those who know me but when someone calls me "Jimmy", it ticks me right off. Because it's usually from one who thinks he knows me better than he does. I was never called Jimmy in Scotland because that's not my name.
Same goes with Mc & Mac. I can hear, at least where I was raised, a distinct difference between the two.
To Conclude: "The Massacre of Glencoe" is a rer wee folk song.


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 07:15 PM

meself - that's a very fair and interesting point! I've never realised it before but I've only ever heard Alistair MacDonald sing it (and lately Ruth at the Thursday folk club in Wimborne) so, yes, maybe I've missed something. I continually re-work songs that I've known for thirty or more years but can't think of how I would do Glencoe differently. Ummmm.....worrying.......


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: GUEST,Jim McLean
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 05:06 AM

Jim Lad,
A number of years ago (before Google) I began to wonder why my father was an Mc but his brother was an Mac and also why was the small c on the upper line and not on the same 'level' as the ean?
Reading a few 18th and 19th century book showed me that the printers' convention at the time was to use an apostrophe in place of Mac. All MacDonalds, MacLeans, MacGibbons were in fact M'Donald, M'Lean and M'Gibbon. This would explain why it was printed above the line. It would be just as easy to write a small c. On closer examination I found that the apostrophe was in fact an open quote which looks like a small c, the reverse of the apostrophe. And so this was in time seen as a small c on the upper part of the line. In my family's case, it appeared that my grandfather just allowed the registrar to fill in the certificate on both occasions (he was very fond of his whisky). My great grandfather was from Mull and spelled his name Mac! Like you I am called either Jim, James, etcetera but this has no relevance on the Mc V Mac question. I don't see how you can just say I'm wrong.
Regarding the chords to Glencoe, I leave that to the singer/player as I wrote it as a melody line. At the time of writing, about 45 years ago, I lived in a tiny room and composed most of my songs using an English concertina!
Thanks for all your kind comments.


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: Jim Lad
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 05:24 AM

Jim: "I don't see how you can just say I'm wrong."
Not at all! Your opinion is as valid as mine. It was a good natured jab, nothing more.
You clearly have a more forgiving nature than I do when it comes to names though. I was "Brannigan" to the teachers all the way through school and like many Scots was well into adulthood before I ever heard my own handle on a frequent basis.
I'll be looking up your catalogue soon. If this song is a typical example of your work, I want to see more.
Kind Regards
Jim


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: Jim McLean
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 05:37 AM

Thanks Jim.


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: jacqui.c
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 09:06 AM

I first heard this song at a local folk session, sung by a guy from Fort William. He was a little off key but I loved both the words and the melody from the first time I heard them.

The only version I know is the one by the Corries and that was so good!

Jimlad - having listened to some of your other stuff, I would love to hear your take on this one. I bet you could do it real justice.

Jim McLean - many thanks for a beautiful song.


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 09:15 AM

Jim McLean - just found your post of 29 May 05 and the key and chords you cited then are exactly as I play the song. I've been listening to you on the Folk Alley website - you're a much better singer and guitarist than I am!


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: guitar
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 11:34 AM

true story,

a french tourist arrives at Ballauaish near Glencoe and asked a local if there were any McDonald's (they were hungry) and the local said not any more


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 11:46 AM

In regards to Mc/Mac it is very subjective. My parents and grandparents before me used "Mc". When I was born the registar recorded my birth certificate as "Mac" so that is my legal name but I still use "Mc".
Mac in Gaelic means son. MacLean in Gaelic has several spellings, one being "MacGillean". This was shortened in English to McLean and later the "a" was put back in by many people. Cape Breton Island was heavily settled by Gaelic speaking folk from the Clearances and almost all of any clan used "Mc" when writing their name in English. Today most here use "Mac". A tour of any cemetery in Cape Breton containing headstones of these pioneers will quickly give proof to what I say.
                   Slainte,
                   Sandy


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 11:53 AM

Oh well - just listened to the Corries' version, which seems to be most people's favourite. Sorry Jim, but I'm still not enamored with it and it's the tempo (especially on the chorus)rather than the melody. It's just too simple a 3/4 rhythm for my taste. But, as I said earlier, everyone likes it so who am I to deny the public what they want? I'll certainly continue to sing and play it when the venue calls for it.


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 12:10 PM

Terry - why exactly are you going out of your way to tell the man who wrote a very popular song fifty or more years ago that you are not fond of it? (A rhetorical question).


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 12:27 PM

meself - put like that, I don't know!


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 12:43 PM

Okay - now go stand in the corner and think about it awhile!


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 01:16 PM

OK, done that. Now what? I suppose I was simply reiterating what I said 25 March, 03:40 AM. I really wish I could be more enthusiastic but there is just something about it (the tempo, I reckon) that makes me not put it amongst my favourite songs. It'll stay in my repertoire, though.


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: Jim Lad
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 01:27 PM

One of the best songs to come out of Scotland in the twentieth century. Even those who don't like it, sing it.


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: Jim McLean
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 01:39 PM

Just a couple of points. Sandy, I agree with all you have said and I don't think it differs from what I said as a glance at any pre Clearance publication will show.
Terry, you must be a better guitarist and singer than I am as I have never been recorded!


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 01:41 PM

Terry, Terry, Terry ... I feel like Miss Manners here. You come into a room in which some people are discussing a popular song with the man who wrote it. This man has written other songs that have become pub standards on both sides of the Atlantic, and was a compatriot of the Dubliners, Dominic Behan, and Lord knows who else. You proceed to tell this man, along with the rest of the company, that you don't like the song under discussion, but that you do sing this song, reluctantly, because it serves your purposes as an entertainer. You repeat this - how many times? One of the company good-naturedly chides you, and you repeat this statement yet again! I have a mind what kind of treatment that would get you down at the Ship Inn - and it would be more of the MISTER Manners variety (for instance, the phrase "puck in the gob" may come to mind ... ).


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: Jim Lad
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 01:46 PM

I know the exact date and where I was when I learned that song. I don't think I can say that about any other.
Just realized that.
Jim: You certainly gave me food for though, earlier. I'd have to say, we all get pricked by different thorns as we walk our separate paths. That's why He made Blackberries and Gooseberries I suppose.


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 02:05 PM

Jim - Apologies - I put 'Jim McLean' into Google and came up with a Scots singer/songwriter who, when I listened to his recordings, was very good indeed and I assumed I was listening to you. Sorry about that.


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: Jim McLean
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 03:37 PM

Tery, no problems. If you 'Google' me you should include a ong of mine like 'Glencoe' otherwise you might end up with a famouse golfer!
Thanks Jim Lad.


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 04:07 PM

Jim - I'd wondered why it wasn't among those available to listen to!


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 05:18 PM

Don't remember the EXACT date, but I remember the exact place - the living-room couch, when I was a young lad, the old fella sitting there with his arm around me - watching one of those music shows from the Maritimes, and there was this young man in highland regalia (not J'n Allan) standing alone singing ... I can still see it - and hear it. I don't know if it was the MacDonald blood in my veins or what, but the song must have really struck me - it was probably at least fifteen years before I heard the song again, but I never forgot the melody, the story, and the chorus. Like Jim Lad, I can't say that about many songs.

The melody, by the way, became a standard waltz tune in Cape Breton.

Gentlemen, I give you: Jim McLean!


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: Jim Lad
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 06:06 PM

They dance a Waltz to "No Man's Land" in Cape Breton. I swear to God!


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 06:15 PM

It may have been Alasdair Gillies that you heard. Just a guess.


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: Jim Lad
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 06:24 PM

Was never a fan of Alisdair. Bit too "Throaty", I always thought so I can't imagine him doing a nice job of it.


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: GUEST,Bardan
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 11:00 PM

Two comments. Did someone Scottish say they objected to being called Jimmy? Sure the Scots call everyone Jimmy. Including people who's names have no connection whatsoever. I think it's just like mac or mate in other places.

Jim Lad, did you say you'd composed parcel of rogues? If so well done! Great song! Ditto Jim McLean but you've already been congratulated plenty.


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 11:14 PM

I wouldn't put it past Jim Lad - but I think what he said is that he's "partial to rogues" - and I don't think he meant that in the polite sense ...


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: Jim Lad
Date: 27 Mar 07 - 12:01 AM

Naw! That was Burnsy? I wrote something else but nobody liked it.


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 27 Mar 07 - 04:57 AM

Well I know that Jim Lad composed The Hills Of Margaree and that is a fine song by any standard.


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: GUEST,HAMISH A MCDONALD
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 05:45 PM

the best version of the massacre of glencoe was the alexander brothers and what pepole keep forgetting is mcIain was heald in prison for three days or more so he counin't sign in time as the plan had already been put into plan by higher up the ladder and for one wee glen in scotland why should they forget what had happend all these year's ago and why should they forgive a cambell when they murderd there own even his own neice they might have there soups but we have ower McDONALD burgers


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: Jim Lad
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 05:58 PM

Hamish: Put yer teeth in!


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 06:03 PM

He doesn't need them for those "McDONALD burgers". Nor for the "cambell" soup for that matter, should he decide to go over to the dark side, or take a walk on the wild side ...


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: MystMoonstruck
Date: 07 Sep 07 - 02:28 AM

I suppose I have a fondness for Father, Son & Friends' version of the song since they are the first I heard it from. Actually, I heard it on one of their cassettes before I was fortunate to encounter them at Spirit of Vincennes Rendezvous in Indiana. Later, I caught it again at Feast of the Hunter's Moon near Lafayette, Indiana, a performance at which all of us joined in the chorus, quite a solemn group.

I find that, when I play it on my bowed psaltery, it's difficult to stop once I get into the flow of it. It's almost hypnotic to me.


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: GUEST,legionareuk
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 08:20 PM

the cambell had orders,king william had signed,these words under lined..leave none alive called mcdonald,..true as much as to day,as it was then


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: meself
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 09:44 PM

What - you mean they're still slaughtering MacDonalds? Why aren't we hearing more about this?

(Btw - you're not related to HAMISH A MCDONALD by any chance, are you?)


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: Ross Campbell
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 08:44 PM

Jim MacLean
I remember you visited the old Blackpool Folk Club in the early '70s (possibly in town for a conference?) I can't recall if you sang the song, but the late Brian Osborne of resident group the Taverners used to do a fine version. If you ever get back this way, Alan Bell still runs the Fylde Folk Festival, you would be a welcome addition to our song-writers workshop!

As has been mentioned above, many worse massacres took place in Scotland in terms of both numbers and ferocity of execution (and some of those perpetrated by Campbells too).

As to Campbell/MacDonald friction, I have never felt there was anything personal in anything said in my presence. The fact that I have cousins named MacDonald, and some of my parents' best friends were MacDonalds suggests that previous generations managed to get past this terrible event.

I can recommend the little museum in Glencoe. I think there's also a visitor centre which explains the story. Haven't tried the Clachaig Inn. What are my chances?

Ross


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Aug 11 - 09:30 AM

Jim - I could not believe that you said such good things on the mudcat cafe. It was good to understand your ideas on writing songs like Glencoe. My friend Martin had a group called braveheart and one of the songs Glencoe, which he was convinced was written and first performed by the Corries, and I didn't know any better, and Jim, it's great to hear your opinion. It was 1963 I when you wrote it...I also know 'Silver Darlings'. People always laugh when Martin sings it, and ask him what his favourite version is. Even though Braveheart has split, we still do occasional one off reunions, such as before the summer break. I hope you continue to do shows and write songs Jim!


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: Jim McLean
Date: 14 Aug 11 - 10:29 AM

I think I should repeat that there is another Jim McLean, a bit younger, but it is he who performs and gives shows. I don't.


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: ollaimh
Date: 14 Aug 11 - 12:48 PM

being a direct lineal descendant of the youngest son of the last gaelic laird of glencoe(by gaidhlig law) i say stop singing that limp wristed and mournfull piece of crap. at least untill they give us out land back.

sing a proper rebel song, or at least give an introductory talk about aborigional land rights and the injustice of british/americam genocidal imperial warfare.

thqat song is contining the romantic crap from the nineteenth century about the noble savages. being in this case the gaels.(by the way we didn't call ourselves highlanders).

we are the nova scotia branch. i am from a cadet line. my grandfather was the youngest son by a secong wife of the direct line, one of whom became lieutennent of nova scotia. his achieving the viceregal status was viewed by him and many others as an historic avenging of the injustice of the dispossion of the gaelic clans. and he gave many lovely speaches in gaeic.

its an awfull song for the soft headed sentimentalists--SING A REBEL SONG


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: Leadfingers
Date: 14 Aug 11 - 01:18 PM

100


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: Leadfingers
Date: 14 Aug 11 - 03:44 PM

It was DEFINTELY '99' when I posted at 01.19 so NOW 100


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Subject: RE: The Massacre of Glencoe—Favorite Version
From: Brian May
Date: 14 Aug 11 - 04:00 PM

Being an Englishman, any song about murdering Scotsmen is my favourite - especially if it's 'in-house'.

That said, I always thought the Corries was an excellent version.

;o)


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