Origins: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song

Subject: Lady Mary
From: Puffenkinty
Date: 30 Jul 02 - 01:34 PM

Does anybody know the backgound of the song "Lady Mary", the one that begins "He came from his palace grand/ He came to my cottage door."? Joan Baez sings it in one of her early albums, and the liner notes say only that the song is Jacobean in origin.

Was the song derived from a longer ballad? Who is the "Lady Mary, so cold and so strange" mentioned in the song, and who is the un-named man? Any information will be greatly appreciated.

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Lady Mary in the Digital Tradition

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Click for related thread

Subject: RE: Lady Mary
From: GUEST, NOMADman
Date: 30 Jul 02 - 02:47 PM

This song is from the Ozarks. It appears in Vance Randolph's Ozark Folksongs. Randolph titled it "The Sad Song." It was recorded perhaps most recently by Cathy Barton and Dave Para on their album "Ballad of the Boonslick" under the title "Palace Grand" (now available, I believe, only on cassette). I doubt that you will find any actual background on the story. I suspect that it is a product of the original writer's imagination, and the answers to your questions are left to yours.

Regards,

John

Subject: Origins: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Jul 02 - 03:17 PM

There sure isn't much in the Traditional Ballad Index. Here's the entry.
-Joe Offer-

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Lady Mary (The Sad Song)

DESCRIPTION: "He came from his palace grand And he came to my cottage door... But I was nothing to him, Though he was the world to me." She desperately loved him; now he is dead, but she has no excuse for mourning. She wonders if, in heaven, he will still ignore her
AUTHOR: unknown
EARLIEST DATE: 1930 (collected by Sandburg)
KEYWORDS: death love beauty
FOUND IN: US(So)
REFERENCES (3 citations):
Randolph 698, "The Sad Song" (1 text, 1 tune)
Randolph/Cohen, pp. 522-524, "The Sad Song" (1 text, 1 tune -- Randolph's 698)
DT, LADYMARY*
Roud #6358
RECORDINGS:
Bud Skidmore, "The Sad Song" (Columbia 15761-D, 1932)
CROSS-REFERENCES:
cf. "We Met, 'Twas In a Crowd"
ALTERNATE TITLES:
Palace Grand
Notes: This has been quite popular in the folk revival; it appears that most if not all of these versions derive from the May Kennedy McCord collected by Randolph and Hunter; she also gave it to Evelyn Beers. Bush's printing also derives from McCord. Thus although there are a few other versions of the song known (from Owens and Sandburg), if you've heard this song, the version you know almost certainly comes from McCord. - RBW
File: R698

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The Ballad Index Copyright 2007 by Robert B. Waltz and David G. Engle.

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For the sake of comparison, here is the version from the Digital Tradition:

LADY MARY

He came from his palace grand
He came to my cottage door
His words were few but his looks
Will linger for ever more
The look in his sad dark eyes
More tender than words could be
But I was nothing to him
And he was the world to me

There in her garden she stands
All dressed in fine satin and lace
Lady Mary so cold and so strange
Who finds in her heart no place
He knew I would be his bride
With a kiss for a lifetime fee
But I was nothing to him
And he was the world to me

And now in his palace grand
on a flower strewn bed he lies
His beautiful lids are closed
Over his sad dark eyes
And among the mourners who mourn
Why should I a mourner be
When I was nothing to him
And he was the world to me

And how will it be with our souls
When we meet in that spirit land
What the human heart ne'er knows
Will the spirit then understand
Or in some celestial form
Will our sorrows repeated be
Will I still be nothing to him
Though he is the world to me

@love @death
Note: Sandburg, who collected this in Missouri in 1930, always
called it "the Sad Song". RG
recorded by Joan Baez and by Barton & Para. Also, long long ago, by
Sandburg.
filename[ LADYMARY
TUNE FILE: LADYMARY
CLICK TO PLAY
SOF

Subject: ADD Version: Lady Mary
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Jul 02 - 03:20 PM

Here's a version I found at a Seekers Website. I compared it with the Seekers recording, and it seems to me to be an exact transcription.
-Joe Offer-

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Lady Mary

He came from his palace grand,
He came to my cottage door.
His words were few, but his look
Will linger for evermore.
The look in his sad dark eyes,
More tender than words could be.
But I was nothing to him,
And he was the world to me.

There in her garden she stands,
All dressed in fine satin and lace,
Lady Mary so cold and so strange,
In his heart she could find no place.
He knew I would be his bride,
With a kiss for a lifetime fee.
But I was nothing to him,
And he was the world to me.

Now in his palace grand,
On a flower-strewn bed he lies.
His beautiful lids are closed
On his sad dark beautiful eyes.
And among the mourners who mourn,
Why should I a mourner be?
For I was nothing to him,
And he was the world to me.

For I was nothing to him,
And he was the world to me.

Subject: RE: Lady Mary
From: MMario
Date: 30 Jul 02 - 03:38 PM

The way I see it, from the lyrics, is the un-named man is the lover (or possibly love - but not lover)of the singer - the "Lady Mary" is his wife. Other implications of the lyrics are that the singer was a lower class and/or poorer woman, that Lady Mary had the requisite wealth and/or title needed for a "good" marriage. The man dies - and the singer is asking herself why should she mourn.

Subject: ADD Version: The Sad Song
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Jul 02 - 03:52 PM

Vance Randolph included this song in his Ozark Folksongs, vol. 4, p. 153-154, no. 698, with music, as "The Sad Song."
No Lady Mary is mentioned, either in the song or in Randolph's notes.
Randolph says "This piece has no local title, but Carl Sandburg, who heard it at Springfield, MO, in 1930, always called it "The Sad Song." "Sung by Mrs. May Kennedy McCord, Springfield, MO, May 14, 1934. Mrs. McCord learned it near Galena, MO, about 1900."
Here are the words in Randolph:

THE SAD SONG

He came from his palace grand,
And he came to my cottage door,
His words were few, but his looks will linger forevermore.
The smile in his sad dark eyes
More tender than words could be,
But I was nothing to him,
Though he was the world to me,
But I was nothing to him,
Though he was the world to me.

And there in his garden strolled,
All robed in satins and lace,
A lady so strange and cold
Who held in his heart no place.
For I would be his bride
With a kiss for a lifetime fee,
But I am nothing to him,
Though he is the world to me,
But I am nothing to him
Though he is the world to me.

Today in his palace grand
On a flower-strewn bier he lies,
With the beautiful lids fast closed
O'er the beautiful sad dark eyes.
Among the mourners who mourn
Why should I a mourner be?
For I was nothing to him
Though he was the world to me,
For I was nothing to him
Though he was the world to me.

How will it be with our souls
When we meet in that spirit land?
What the mortal heart ne'er knows
Will the spirit then understand?
Or in some celestial form
Will our sorrows repeated be?
Will I still be nothing to him,
Though he be the world to me?
Will I still be nothing to him,
Though he be the world to me?

Sandburg also called it "The Sad Song." Who added the Lady Mary?? For an unexplained reason, this has become the primary title in The Traditional Ballad Index (cufresno). Where did the DT version come from? Is it the Baez recording?

Subject: RE: Lady Mary
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Jul 02 - 03:56 PM

Here is the version in the abridged edition of Ozark Folksongs (Vance Randolph, 1982). I think it's identical to what Dicho posted - I think he has the four-volume set of Ozark Folksongs. I've posted it next to the Digital Tradition lyrics for comparison. I wonder where the DT lyrics come from.

THE SAD SONG He came from his palace grand, And he came to my cottage door; His words were few, but his looks Will linger forevermore. The smile in his sad dark eyes, More tender than words could be; But I was nothing to him, Though he was the world to me; But I was nothing to him, Though he was the world to me. And there in his garden strolled, All robed in satins and lace, A lady so strange and cold, Who held in his heart no place. For I would be his bride With a kiss for a lifetime fee; But I am nothing to him, Though he is the world to me; But I am nothing to him, Though he is the world to me. Today in his palace grand On a flower-strewn bier he lies, With the beautiful lids fast closed O'er the beautiful sad dark eyes. Among the mourners who mourn Why should I a mourner be? For I was nothing to him, Though he was the world to me; For I was nothing to him, Though he was the world to me. How will it be with our souls When we meet in that spirit land? What the mortal heart ne'er knows Will the spirit then understand? Or in some celestial form Will our sorrows repeated be? Will I still be nothing to him, Though he is the world to me? Will I still be nothing to him, Though he is the world to me?

LADY MARY (DT version) He came from his palace grand He came to my cottage door His words were few but his looks Will linger for ever more The look in his sad dark eyes More tender than words could be But I was nothing to him And he was the world to me There in her garden she stands All dressed in fine satin and lace Lady Mary so cold and so strange Who finds in her heart no place He knew I would be his bride With a kiss for a lifetime fee But I was nothing to him And he was the world to me And now in his palace grand on a flower strewn bed he lies His beautiful lids are closed Over his sad dark eyes And among the mourners who mourn Why should I a mourner be When I was nothing to him And he was the world to me And how will it be with our souls When we meet in that spirit land What the human heart ne'er knows Will the spirit then understand Or in some celestial form Will our sorrows repeated be Will I still be nothing to him Though he is the world to me CLICK TO PLAY

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Randolph's notes:

This piece has no local title, but Carl Sandburg, who heard it at Springfield, Mo., in 1930, always called it "The Sad Song."
The origins of this song have not been traced, but it would appear to be a sheet-music composition of the 1880s or 1890s. Evelyn Beers learned it from May Kennedy McCord and has sung it frequently; her version is in Bush (1970), 77—79. Joan Baez also recorded the piece; she learned it from Randolph's text.
When Randolph recorded Mrs. McCord singing this in 1941 (AFS 5297 B3), she titled it "Lady Mary." Max Hunter, who also recorded her rendition of the song (MPH 549), used the title by which his mother had sung it—"Palace Grand."
The above version was sung by May Kennedy McCord, Springfield, Missouri, May 14, 1934. Mrs. McCord learned it near Galena, Missouri, about 1900.

Subject: RE: Lady Mary
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Jul 02 - 04:00 PM

This thread popped up today without mention of the earlier one, 27260: The Sad Song
Who named it Lady Mary? Not Randolph, not Sandburg. Who added the words "Lady Mary", not in the song as collected? See previous thread for the Randolph version and more information.

Subject: RE: Lady Mary
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Jul 02 - 04:29 PM

Dicho, I think the majority ruled against combining threads in most circumstances, so I'm doing it only in limited situations. Let's keep the current discussion in this one thread.

The abridged version of Randolph gives three titles for the song, "The Sad Song," "Lady Mary," and "Palace Grand." Randolph says Carl Sandburg collected the song in 1930 - I'm wondering if Sandburg published it in a book. Sandburg's American Songbag was published in 1927.
Barry Taylor's transcription of the tune is at The Contemplator website.
You can hear a recording of May Kennedy McCord singing "Palace Grand" at the Max Hunter Folk Song Collection.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Lady Mary
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 30 Jul 02 - 04:30 PM

This is number 6358 in the Roud Folk Song Index. The only traditional set noted there which (apparently) does not derive from the McCord version appeared in William A. Owens' Texas Folk Songs (1950), and was noted by Owens from an unidentified source as Lady Mary.

The set recorded and published by Sandburg came from Mrs. McCord, according to Roud.

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I now have th eOwens book. Owens says he first heard the song when May Kennedy McCord sang it at the Texas Centennial in 1936. Since then it was sung for him in Oklahoma and Texas.
The version in the Owens book is substantially the same as others posted here.
-Joe Offer, January, 2008-

Subject: RE: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Jul 02 - 04:43 PM

Here are the lyrics from the Max Hunter site. Note that they're very similar to the version in the Digital Tradition.
-Joe Offer-

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PALACE GRAND
As sung by May Kennedy McCord, Springfield, Missouri on October 21, 1960

VERSE 1
He came to his palace grand
An' he came t' my cottage door
His words were few but his lock
They will linger forever more
Th' smile an' his sad dark eyes
More tender than words could be
But I was nothing to him
Tho' he was th world to me

VERSE 2
An' there in his garden strolled
All robed in his satins an' lace
Lady Mary so strange 'n cold
Who held in his heart no place
Fer I would've been his bride
With a kiss for lifetime fee
But I was nothing to him
Tho' he was th world to me

VERSE 3
Today in his palace grand
On a flower strewn bed he lies
With 'is beautiful lips fast closed
O, his beautiful sad dark eyes
Among th mours who mourned
Why should I a mourner be
For I was nothing to him
Tho' he was th world to me

VERSE 4
How will it be with our souls
When we meet in that spirit land
What th mortal heart n'er knows
To th spirit then understand
Or in some celestial form
Will our sorrows repeated be
Will I still be nothing to him
Though he is th world to me

OTHER COLLECTIONS:
Randolph: IV-698 The Sad Song

Subject: RE: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Jul 02 - 05:40 PM

Apparently Mrs. McCord herself added the "Lady Mary" in later renditions of the song (including Max Hunter recording, 1960). The version I posted is from the 4-vol. set.
I would guess that the comment about it possibly being from a sheet music song of the 1880s or 1890s was added to the abridged version by the editor, Norm Cohen; it is not in the 4 vol. set.
Not important, but after listening to the Max Hunter recording of Mrs. McCord, I think "flower-strewn bed" probably was there from the start rather that "flower-strewn bier." The lyrics to the Max Hunter recording have two errors; line 1 should be "came from" and in line 3 "his look" ends the sentence.

We have not found out where Sandburg published the song (see Malcolm's post). He published a great deal, so a reference is needed.

Subject: RE: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: Susan of DT
Date: 30 Jul 02 - 05:52 PM

I entered the version in the DT (SOF is me). I learned the song from a Joan Baez record in the 60s and entered her version and the title from her songbook, altho I think of it as "Palace Grand". I added the soul verse later, since I had not heard it at that time.

Subject: RE: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Jul 02 - 06:08 PM

Thanks, Susan - Susan's version in the Digital Tradition is an exact transcription of the words in the Joan Baez Songbook, except that the Baez book doesn't have the last "with our souls" verse. Here are the notes from the Baez book:

The text of this song has an Elizabethan ring to it, but it comes from the Ozark Mountains where Vance Randolph collected it from May Kennedy McCord. One would think that such an exquisite text and tune would be found more widely in tradition, but to date no other version of this lyric has turned up on either side of the Atlantic.

Subject: RE: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 30 Jul 02 - 07:53 PM

Sandburg: New American Songbag (1950) pp.56-57. I had assumed from the reference in the DT file that the text there was from Sandburg, but evidently this is not the case.

Interesting that Baez' comment that the song "has an Elizabethan ring" turns into someone's else's belief that she said that "the song is Jacobean in origin". Sounds and reads like a Victorian parlour ballad to me.

Subject: RE: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: Puffenkinty
Date: 31 Jul 02 - 11:13 AM

The reason I had alluded to a possible Jacobean origin for the song "Lady Mary" was because I found the tune and words through a Google search, and it was listed as a Scottish song from the 19th century about the Jacobite struggle. The site is www.contemplator.com/scotland.

Are the authors of this site full of it?

Thanks to all who wrote.

Subject: RE: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: MMario
Date: 31 Jul 02 - 11:21 AM

19th century would be Victorian. "About the Jocobites" is certainly not equivilant to "Jacobean origin"

Subject: RE: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 Jul 02 - 04:26 PM

Puffinkinty- Leslie Nelson at Contemplator lists Lady Mary as a Scottish folksong of the 19th century, possibly in error, but no claims are made for it being Jacobite music. It is not on the list of Jacobite music (it is stated most were written long after the uprisings anyway). Leslie's stated source is good old Mudcat Digital Tradition.

Subject: RE: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: GUEST,Dale
Date: 31 Jul 02 - 05:39 PM

Leslie used to post quite a bit here, but I haven't seen posts from Leslie lately.

The notes to the Complete Seekers say, "For her solo tracks, Judith settled on . . . her arrangement of 'Lady Mary', an English ballad which was adopted by America's early settlers . . ."

My own opinion is that I will stick with the May Kennedy McCord source until I am shown differently. Here is a short biography and a nice picture of her. The ThinkQuest site may ask you to "click here to view this site", but it is a safe site, so don't worry about that. They just like for you to know where the article came from ~~ a student project in Taney County, Missouri. May Kennedy McCord is much revered in the Ozarks, and rightly so. For a good while I have been considering a discussion of her work here at Mudcat. Someday I may actually do it.

Here is a dialogue lifted from A Seekerology, a good source of information about The Seekers and their music, by the way. I especially enjoyed their discussion of "The Bush Girl" when I was reading up on it some time ago, but that is another topic altogether.

"Lady Mary" did not cause listmembers any headaches of understanding the words. But the actual meaning of the song was a major bone of contention.

It is fair to say that this song was one of the forgotten songs of the Seekers repertoire. When the first poll of favorite songs was made, the song only made one or two appearances. But by same token, it is also fair to say that the analysis probably made more people appreciative of this song's merits. Some people even thought it was a new song, but it was in fact recorded in 1964.

Gordon Weir kicked it off with this analysis:

A while ago in my "Top 25" listing, I alluded to the struggle I was having trying to follow the story line of "Lady Mary". Recently, Patrick Jervis echoed similar sentiments. Well, for what it may be worth, this is my best take on the song. If any of you have other insights I (and I am sure, Patrick as well) be MORE than appreciative if you would share them with the List.

Dramatis Personae:
The singer, apparently a peasant girl
A royal Prince
Lady Mary, another member of the royalty

Story:
The Prince, perhaps to rest and water the horses after a fox hunt, happens to stop by at the house of the peasant girl . She sees him and falls in love with him (and possibly vice versa), but since he is royalty and she but a commoner, no romantic future is possible for them.

Meanwhile, since royalty is expected to court royalty, the Prince is "matched" with Lady Mary, whom he really doesn't love ("In his heart she could find no place"), while being denied to the peasant girl who he knows does love him ("He knew I would be his bride")

Later, the Prince dies and is lying in state. The girl, for whom the Prince had not forsaken Lady Mary in his life, wonders whether she should now attend as one of the mourners.

Keith Swift countered with his views:

This interpretation doesn't quite work. The "singer" says, in part:

"He knew I would be his bride, with a kiss for a lifetime fee. But I WAS NOTHING to him, (emphasis mine) and he was the world to me." I have dropped the complete lyrics in below. It appears to me that the "singer" is Lady Mary herself, not royalty, but married perhaps into nobility. This would not necessarily mean a palatial residence for her. There seems, to me to be only one, unfortunate female in the song, telling her life story so far, from the cottage, to the palace gardens, to the bed-side where he lays dead. At this point, she ponders on the irony of her mourning. I wonder what inspired this song - whether there is a historic character here.

Lady Mary

He came from his palace grand,
He came to my cottage door.
His words were few, but his look
Will linger for evermore.

The look in his sad dark eyes,
More tender than words could be.
But I was nothing to him,
And he was the world to me.

There in her garden she stands,
All dressed in fine satin and lace,
Lady Mary so cold and so strange,
In his heart she could find no place.

He knew I would be his bride,
With a kiss for a lifetime fee.
But I was nothing to him,
And he was the world to me.

Now in his palace grand,
On a flower-strewn bed he lies.
His beautiful lids are closed
On his sad dark beautiful eyes.

And among the mourners who mourn,
Why should I a mourner be,
For I was nothing to him,
And he was the world to me.

For I was nothing to him,
And he was the world to me.

Next up was Gary Padgett who was

somewhat baffled too, although I tend to think there was one lady, and for a couple of lines the narrative changes from the first person to the third person. One thought occurred to me. The inlay material notes from the 5-CD set classify that song as an old English ballad that was brought to America by the early settlers. Oftentimes those old folksongs had many verses, far too many for a typical recording. It just might be that there are some omitted verses which might help to clarify the story line further. Does anyone perhaps have any collection of old ballads and/or folksongs which might contain this song?

For the time being the debate rests, but is open to other interpretations.

Subject: RE: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: kendall
Date: 31 Jul 02 - 07:15 PM

Actually, the most recent recording of this jewel is on my cd, BEGINNERS LUCK. It has also been said that Lady Mary is the virgin Mary. Who knows?

Subject: RE: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 Jul 02 - 09:49 PM

Confusion easily arises if one word or one line has been altered along the line of passage. We may end with an interpretation that is far different from the author's intent. The only information we have is Mrs. McCord's; we will have to go with it unless something new turns up.
Listening to Mrs. McCord sing the song in the Max Hunter Collection, I have a recollection of having heard the tune before. Now it will haunt me for a while. (The Contemplator midi is somewhat flat and characterless).

Subject: RE: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 31 Jul 02 - 10:08 PM

So far, we have only assumptions made by revival performers about this song; not an atom of evidence for its existence before the early 20th century in America. It may well be older; though, from the language, probably not much. I hadn't realised that someone might confuse "Jacobean" with "Jacobite", of course; we can, after all, only try to answer the questions that are asked.

Subject: RE: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 Jul 02 - 10:21 PM

Just pulled Kendall's "Beginner's Luck" off the shelf. Sure enough, there is "Palace Grand." And the "recollection" that was haunting me is undoubtedly of Kendall singing this "jewel" - I agree, a jewel it is.
("Sounds and reads like a Victorian parlor ballad to me." Early post above. No, I don't think so).

Subject: RE: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 31 Jul 02 - 10:27 PM

What would you say it was, then?

Subject: RE: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 Jul 02 - 10:37 PM

A gem of the genre, it is, it is. Irish, of course! (He, he, he)

Subject: RE: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: Ferrara
Date: 01 Aug 02 - 12:11 AM

Joe,

Carl Sandburg published an Addendum or Appendix to The American Songbag. Joe Hickerson told me the specific title once but as usual I have forgotten it.

I must have found it at the library (early 60's), because I more-or-less learned about three songs from it, then never could find it again. This was one of the three songs. The others I remember are A Horse Named Bill, and I Don't Want to be Buried in the Storm.

The year must have been about 1962, I remember doing a painting based on the "Buried in the Storm" song because my grandfather died a month or two after I learned it and it was on my mind.

Not terribly helpful I guess, but there you are....

Rita

Subject: RE: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: Amos
Date: 01 Aug 02 - 04:33 PM

If indeed it was "Appalachian" in orogin then it could easily have pre-17th c. roots in Irish or Scottish songs and the theme is certainly not unlike many of those; but I do not recall hearing anything I could identify as an antecedent in tune.

Kendall's rendition is beautiful.

To my mind there is no question that there were two women, one of whom is ineligible for the affections of the gentleman in question, but who loves him dearly from afar -- and the other of whom gets the man but who is cold. This is the kind of tale that fired the Romantic era, I imagine. Anyway, it seems straightforward to me.

A

Subject: RE: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Aug 02 - 08:44 PM

Sandburg's addenum, "New American Songbag," was printed in hardcover in 1950 but quickly came out in a spiral bound paperback. It is only 110 pp. Other paperbacks came out in the 60s and later. I just ordered one, so looked up what editions are available.
Amos, I agree with your interpretation. It is the one Kendall Morse used, and the only one that makes sense to me.

Subject: RE: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 01 Aug 02 - 09:46 PM

"pre-17th c. roots in Irish or Scottish songs": with respect, no way. If anyone can come up with even a 19th century text, I'll buy them a drink; 17th century would merit an entire night at the pub. I think I'm pretty safe there; and if it has European origins at all, they are far more likely to be English, late 19th century, and composed by a jobbing songwriter. The language and the tune are both typical of the Victorian parlour balld, as I've said; and I'm not backing down on that until someone proves me wrong!

Subject: RE: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: GUEST,Arkie
Date: 01 Aug 02 - 09:57 PM

One of our local singers who sings Lady Mary learned it from the Baez recording. When she sang it for her mother, her response was "Where did you learn that? Your grandmother used to sing it." Her grandmother's family was from Ireland. Of course she could have learned the song anywhere. Some thoughts on the number of ladys. If the lady in verse one was of rather modest means she would not likely have been dressed in fine satin and lace. On the other hand, the fine satin and lace may have been her funeral attire.

Subject: RE: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 01 Aug 02 - 10:24 PM

It's amazing how many people, on hearing a song, will say "your grandmother" (insert equivalent -and usually untraceable- older person) used to sing that"; often of songs written scarcely more recently than last week. I'm not saying that it's not true; just that it's no help unless we have details. Since Baez recorded the song in the early 1960s, there are plenty of grandmothers who may have learned it from that source, or from books. The structure suggests very stongly, in any case, that it's a composed song, and as such almost certain to have been circulated on printed sheets. That, however, is speculation which I can't back up.

If anybody can prove this one to be Irish (or Scottish, for that matter) and earlier than the late 19th century, they can bill me for two nights down the pub. They'll have earned it.

Subject: RE: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Aug 02 - 10:55 PM

Somehow there is something of the spirit of this:

Though seas and land betwixt us both,
Our faith and troth,
Like separated souls,
All time and space controls
Above the highest sphere we meet
Unseen, unknown, and greet as angels greet.

Subject: RE: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: Stewie
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 02:41 AM

I have been listening to a very lovely rendition of this song under the title 'Palace Grand'. It is the last track on Ginny Hawker 'Letters From My Father' Rounder CD 0491. Ginny's note says that it is 'a variation of the Scottish song "Lass of the Low Country"', but I can't see that. She learned it from the singing of Evelyn Beers at the 1964 West Virginia State Folk Festival in Glenville, WV. The lyrics of this version, with minor changes, are the same as 'The Sad Song' [Randolph] as posted by Dicho and Joe.

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: GUEST,jaze
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 11:46 AM

Kendall's great version is included on the "Rose" Mudcat cd. thanks, Kendall.

Subject: RE: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie)
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 07:49 PM

I remember that this was May Kennedy McCord's signature song- not officially, but everyone thought it was HER song...didn't she play a dulcimer when she sang it? I was a young girl when I met her and heard her sing at one of Sarah Gertrude Knott's longago National Folk Festivals. She seemed to me to be a stately old lady with a kind of high quivery voice, and called the song, "Palace Grand," I believe.
The last two lines made a big impression on me:

Will I still be nothing to him,
Though he dims heaven for me?

Subject: RE: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: kendall
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 08:02 PM

Thank you Guest jaze. I do love those old sticky songs.

Subject: RE: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: GUEST,Genie-too-tired-to-log-in
Date: 27 Jan 03 - 03:52 AM

Kendall, is one of the sets of lyrics posted above the one you sang on the Mudcat CD, or did you do your own arrangement/version?

Trying to tie up loose ends in the liner notes for the CDs.

Genie

Subject: RE: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: kendall
Date: 27 Jan 03 - 08:23 AM

Genie, I sang it pretty much the way I learned it from Cathy Barton. Except that I forgot the verse, ..there in his palace grand on a flower strewn bed he lies... Didn't notice it until it was in the can!

That line, ..in some celestial form will our sorrows repeated be.. gets me every time.

Subject: RE: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: Amos
Date: 27 Jan 03 - 08:35 AM

I dig it, Skipper -- like a small window into immortality in a single phrase. I'm witchoo on that one.

A

Subject: RE: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: Genie
Date: 27 Jan 03 - 12:36 PM

Kendall, do you happen to have a transcription of the lyrics that you sang (for inclusion in the liner notes for the Rose CD)? If they're the same as one of the versions posted here (minus that verse), I can copy them and paste them.

Genie

Subject: ADD: Version Castle Grand/Palace Grand
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 01:39 AM

I've been spending time with Helen Schneyer's last CD, What a Singing There Will Be. Here's Helen's version of this song:

Palace Grand
Traditional

He came from his palace grand,
and he came to my cottage door
The words that he spoke were few,
but his looks lingered forevermore
With a look in his sad, dark eyes
more tender than words could be
But I was nothing to him,
though he was the world to me

And there in his garden and home
all dressed up in satin and lace
Lady Mary so strange and so cold
has found in his heart a place
And I would have been his bride
with a kiss for a lifetime fee
But I was nothing to him,
though he was the world to me

And now in his palace grand,
on a flower-strewn bed he lies
With his beautiful lids fast closed
o'er his beautiful sad, dark eyes
But among the mourners who mourn,
why should I a mourner be
For I was nothing to him,
though he was the world to me

And how will it be with our souls
when we meet in that heavenly land
What the human heart ne'er knows,
will the spirit then understand
Or in some celestial form,
will our sorrows repeated be
Will I be nothing to him,
though he be the world to me

Helen's notes: "Learned from Nan Perdue, one of the best ballad singers I know."

---

Here's another transcription hidden in another thread:

Thread #42330   Message #615105
Posted By: Deckman
22-Dec-01 - 10:14 PM
Thread Name: Lyr Req: help with this song please - Palace Grand
Subject: ADD: Castle Grand (Palace Grand)

Hi Barry ... sorry it's taken so long to get back to you. This might be the song you are looking for. I always have called it "Castle Grand." I hope it's what you want.

Castle Grand (Palace Grand)

He came from his castle grand
And he came to my cottage door
His words were few, but his looks
Will linger forever more

The smile in his sad dark eyes
More tender than words could be
But I was nothing to him
Though he was the world to me

While there in his garden strolled
All robed in satins and lace
A lady so strange and cold
Who held in his heart, no place

For I would be his bride
With a kiss for a lifetime fee
But I was nothing to he
Though he was the world to me

Today in his castle grand
On a flower strewn bier he lies
The beautiful lids fast closed
On his beautiful sad, dark eyes.

Among the mourners who mourn
Why should I, a mourner be
For I was nothing to he
Though he was the world to me

And how will it be with our souls
When we meet in that spirit land
What the mortal heart ne'er knows
Will the spirit then understand

Or in some celestial form
Will our sorrows repeated be
Will I still be nothing to he
Though he is the world to me

I wish I could give proper credits, but all I know of this song is that I learned it from the beautiful Patti, of Seattle and Santa Cruz fame. I hope this helps to give you a lead. CHEERS, Bob

---

Note: According to Volume IV (page 153) of Vance Randolph's Ozark Folksongs, Carl Sandburg, who heard the song in Springfield, Missouri, in 1930, called this "The Sad Song." [Sandburg's American Songbag was published in 1927, so apparently Sandburg did not publish this song until New American Songbag came out much later. Randolph collected the song on May 14, 1934, from Mrs. May Kennedy McCord, Springfield, Missouri. McCord learned it near Galena, Missouri, in about 1900. Ozark Folksongs was published 1946-50. Anyone know of an earlier printed transcription of this song? As far as I can tell, May Kennedy McCord is the earliest documented source for this song, as heard by Sandburg in 1930.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Origins: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad So
From: jaze
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 10:15 AM

The original Joan Baez lp liner notes state:"We have no information on this wistful lyric, but from text and tune we would guess that it is an Elizabethan or Jacobean literary treatment of a folk theme, making use of a number of standard ballad lines." Does anyone know of other ballads that use these lines?

Subject: RE: Origins: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 03:03 PM

Mrs May Kennedy McCord was born in Springfield, MO, 1880. "...she must have memorized every song she ever heard. She knew hundreds, including many old Child ballads. The Missouri collector Vance Randolph discovered and recorded her. She said she heard this song about 1900, but didn't know the title, which explains why it has so many of them. That also makes it difficult to find any trace of the original written source...."
"She began to write a regular newspaper column on Ozark folkways. At age 64, she started a radio program, "Hillbilly Heartbeats," that continued for 24 years. She died in 1979 at age 98, ..."

Ginny Hawker, "Letters From My Father," Rounder, sang the song. Her first verse differs somewhat from those posted here:

Lyr. Add: THE PALACE GRAND
Ginny Hawker
1.
He came from his palace grand,
And he came to my cottage door.
His words, they were few, but his looks
They will linger forevermore.
With the look in his sad dark eyes
More tender than words could be;
But I was nothing to him,
Though he was the world to me.
2.
And there in his garden strolls,
All dressed in satins and lace,
Lady Mary so strange and cold,
Who has in his heart no place.
For I would have been his bride
With a kiss for a lifetime fee,
But I was nothing to him
Though he was the world to me.
3.
And now in his palace grand
On a flower-strewn bier he lies,
With his beautiful lids tight closed
On his beautiful sad dark eyes.
And among mourners who mourn,
Why should I a mourner be?
For I was nothing to him,
Though he was the world to me.
4.
And how will it be with our souls
When we meet in that spirit land?
What the human heart ne'er knows
Will the spirit still understand?
Or in some celestial form
Will our sorrows repeated be?
Will I still be nothing to him,
Though he is the world to me.

Learned from Evelyn Beers.

Palace Grand

This reminds me of pre-Rafaelite painting, verse and thought of the latter half of the 19th c. Perhaps in the poems written in this genre, these verses will be found.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 03:08 PM

http://www.lizlyle.lofgrens.org/RmOlSngs/RTOS-PalaceGrand.html
Palace Grand

Subject: RE: Origins: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: Joybell
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 05:12 PM

You are so right, Q. I have a big collection of "parlor songs" in my working song book and I add pre-Rafaelite pictures to them.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: Lyr Add: LOVING, BUT UNLOVED (Francis Behrynge)
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 21 Feb 11 - 08:30 PM

From Harper's Magazine, Volume 43, No. 256 (New York: Harper & Brothers, Sept., 1871), page 510:

^^
LOVING, BUT UNLOVED.
Francis Behrynge*

Out from his palace home
He came to my cottage door:
Few were his looks and words,
But they linger for evermore.
The smile of his sad blue eyes
Was tender as smile could be;
Yet I was nothing to him,
Though he was the world to me!

Fair was the bride he won,
Yet her heart was never his own:
Her beauty he had and held,
But his spirit was ever alone.
I would have been his slave,
With a kiss for my life-long fee;
But I was nothing to him,
While he was the world to me!

To-day, in his stately home,
On a flower-strewn bier he lies,
With the drooping lids fast closed
O'er the beautiful sad blue eyes.
And among the mourners who mourn
I may not a mourner be;
For I was nothing to him,
Though he was the world to me!

How will it be with our souls
When they meet in the better land?
What the mortal could never know,
Will the spirit yet understand?
Or, in some celestial form,
Must the sorrow repeated be,
And I be nothing to him,
While he dims heaven for me?


[* The author's name is given in the table of contents, page vii.]

Subject: RE: Origins: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: GUEST,DWR
Date: 21 Feb 11 - 11:30 PM

Jim, that is a great, great find. The origins of this song have been a great puzzlement to a great many scholars and musicians.

I recently did some research of my own, and was able to find the name of the person that May Kennedy McCord learned it from. It was on an interview tape that she had made years ago.

I made at least a moderate search at the time, but was unable to trace it any further than that.

Thank You so much. Dale

Subject: RE: Origins: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Feb 11 - 11:54 PM

Good Hit!

The version "Palace Grand" is one than many of us know.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Feb 11 - 09:35 AM

Outstanding, Jim. So much for Elizabethans, Jacobites, and "pre-17th Century roots."

Subject: RE: Origins: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: GUEST,Dave Rado
Date: 16 Jan 12 - 07:13 PM

This is a fascinating thread. I've loved Joan Baez's rendition of "Lady Mary" all my life and it's amazing that several generations of folk singers have been singing one of the versions of this song while being stumped by its origins - and now Jim on mudcat has unearthed the article in Harper's which proves that the original version of the song (or at least of the words: it doesn't say anything about the melody) was written by Francis Behrynge in around 1871.

But there are still some mysteries.

First, did Behrynge write the melody or was that added by an anonymous singer some time between 1871 and 1900, when May Kennedy McCord first heard it?

Second, Joan Baez said she got it from Randolph, who got it from McCord; yet the lyrics Randolph published in 1931 are significantly different from those that Baez sings (as well as being significantly different from the original version); and the lyrics Randolph published contain no mention of "Lady Mary". The reference to "Lady Mary" seems out of place in an American folk song in any case - American women are not given the title of "Lady.

But in 1941 Randolph recorded McCord singing the lyrics that Baez later used, including the reference to "Lady Mary"; and there is also a recording of McCord singing it in 1960 with those lyrics. So is it reasonable to conclude that McCord herself modified the lyrics to include the "Lady Mary" reference some time between 1930 and 1941? And if so, she might also have made some modifications prior to 1931, so that perhaps the version that McCord heard in 1900 could have been close to the original version that Behrynge wrote and published in 1871, and the differences between the original and the version Randolph published in 1931 might also have been made by McCord herself?

Clearly Baez didn't get the lyrics from the version Randolph published, despite what she wrote in her notes; but maybe she first saw the song written down there and then subsequently heard McCord sing it with the "lady Mary" lyrics, and learnt those lyrics direct from McCord, rather than from Randolph, and later mis-remembered the sequence of events? (I emailed Joan's publicist about that, asking if Joan could shed any light on this, but she didn't reply, unfortunately.)

One other mystery: there is no one in the US or German phone book with the name "Behrynge", at least not with that spelling; and if you google the name, the only search result is Francis Behrynge. So it seems unlikely that he was born with that name, at least with that spelling; and if he had any children, they must presumably have changed the spelling of their surname. However, "Behringer", "Behring" and "Beringe" are all fairly common German names, so maybe his name was really one of those. Could Harper's magazine have mis-spelled his name?

Subject: RE: Origins: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: kendall
Date: 16 Jan 12 - 07:49 PM

If anyone would like to hear my version, go to: http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=954289

Subject: RE: Origins: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: kendall
Date: 16 Jan 12 - 07:56 PM

This was an off the wall recording with some of my friends. If I could, I'd do it over, better, but alas, you can't imagine how it grieves me to know I will never sing again.

Tom Rowe bass
Greg Boardman viola

Subject: RE: Origins: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: Lighter
Date: 16 Jan 12 - 08:19 PM

Interesting post, Dave.

Anything is possible, but Harper's was and is a very well edited magazine, so I'd assume that "Behrynge" is how he wanted it spelled.

Possibly to serve as a pseudonym.

I've checked several very large American newspaper and magazine databases without turning up further mention of Francis or *any other* "Behrynge," except, curiously, for a character in a poem called "A Place in Heaven," by J. H. Starr, in the N.O. Daily Picayune, Jan. 16, 1888, p. 7. It begins,

"Behrynge, the pilgrim, lifting up his head,
Saw the death angel standing near his bed..."

Perhaps Starr was a fan of "Loving, but Unloved." Or perhaps J. H. Starr was in fact "Behrynge."

Subject: RE: Origins: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: GUEST,MarthaF
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 12:23 PM

I stumbled upon this very interesting discussion today, having woken up with a line from Joan Baez's version of this song in my head, and gone looking for more information.

I repeated your searches for "behrynge" and found - like you - nothing but references to this page in Harpers, the "Place in Heaven" poem, and this blog. Personally I am inclined to think it was a pseudonym.

However - didn't you ever wonder whether "Francis Behrynge" actually WROTE the "Loving but unloved" poem/song/text - or whether s/he merely wrote down a song that was current at that time?

The question of the melody and its origin still stands. To my ear this is an unusual melody for a folk song - and am I correct that it persists from version to version? (the only version I personally know being Joan's)

Things to think about!

Ancestry.com led me to some Francis Baring's - which could be alternately spelled "behrynge" - so I took this search to Wikipedia, where I discovered:
* a " German and British banking family, descended from Johann (John) Baring (1697–1748), a wool merchant of Bremen."

* "Francis Baring may refer to:

    Sir Francis Baring, 1st Baronet (1740–1810), English merchant banker.
    Francis Baring, 1st Baron Northbrook, (1796–1866)
    Francis Baring, 2nd Earl of Northbrook, (1850–1929)
    Francis Baring, 3rd Baron Ashburton (1800–1868), British peer and politician
    Francis Thomas Baring, 6th Baron Northbrook (born 1954), British peer and Conservative politician
    Francis Denzil Edward Baring, 5th Baron Ashburton"

Could the dead nobleman have been one of these??

There's a lot to think about here!

Subject: RE: Origins: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 01:18 PM

While the tune is effective, it is extremely simple and not very imaginative. There is considerable repetition. Somebody else may be able to say whether it has close traditional relatives.

But whether or not it does, my feeling is that it's so simple that almost anyone could have "composed" it, including May McCord (a musician).   I'd call it a "folk tune" or at least a "folklike tune" on that basis alone.

It's always easy ask without evidence whether a song was "really" written by somebody else. Maybe the acknowledged author took credit for a traditional song after making a few minor changes (if any); maybe he just stole it from an associate or a family member. The point is simply that without evidence those suspicions are literally groundless.

> Could the dead nobleman have been one of these??

Sure. But he could have been imaginary too.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 10:22 AM

Subject: RE: Origins: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 07:30 AM

It's amazing how changing one word can alter the whole song.

The version I know says: There, in HER garden she stands, all dressed in white satin and lace, LADY MARY so proud and COLD...etc

Someone observed that this could be referring to the Virgin Mary, a statue.
Sounds far fetched to me.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 12:30 PM

I agree, Kendall.

You have my sympathy on the loss of your singing voice. I know my own life would be much degraded if I couldn't sing anymore.

There's a link above to this song in the DT, with musical notation for the tune. I've been playing that tune, and it seems to me to have something of a slow air about it - in particular the use of very long, tied notes in some places and, in other places, surprisingly quick notes.

I wonder if that's the timing it had when Sandburg collected it back in 1930.

The range is from low A below the staff to high D on the staff. Not many singers can do that. It's rather pretty, and I'm going to mess with it a little and see how it sounds on a flute in D.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: kendall
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 11:54 AM

I love those sticky old songs.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 12:44 PM

This song has puzzled me since the '60's. Glad to find like-minded people.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: GUEST,Mark
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 11:14 AM

I recently heard Barbara Dickson singing Palace Grand in concert and she has recorded it on an EP called Five Songs. What a lovely song which Barbara sings so beautifully, she has a lovely plaintive quality in her voice. So glad to have heard the aong

Subject: RE: Origins: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: GUEST,Julia
Date: 03 Jan 19 - 04:06 PM

Daniel Romano sings a version of this song titled “She was the world to me”. It touched me so deeply, it led me to research it’s origin, which led me to this thread. Check it out if you want, it’s a different arrangement but it’s so beautiful ??

Subject: RE: Origins: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: MRyer
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 03:25 PM

Jim Dixon's post(above in this thread) of 21 Feb 2011 - 8:30PM, which lists a poem which was published in Harper's Magazine in 1871, and identifies it as a precursor to "The Palace Grand" / "Lady Mary" / "The Sad Song" is truly a remarkable thing for me and I suspect for others that love this song. (Thanks Jim Dixon)

I wanted to comment further that it is also remarkable to me that Jean Ritchie's post (also above)of 21 Jan 2003 - 7:49PM should quote the last two lines of May Kennedy McCord's song rendition as: "Will I still be nothing to him, Though he dims heaven for me?" and have them be almost identical to the last two lines of the Harper's Magazine 1871 poem.

Also, it seems to me that the 1871 poem puts the controversy about the number of females in the song in the court that favors 2 females.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: Mrrzy
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 05:21 PM

This reminds me of a Cynthia Gooding song about a girl of low degree ah but she loved his lordship so tenderly... But the lordship ignores her and she does. Sad, sad song too.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: Mrrzy
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 05:37 PM

Dies. Not does, dies. Oops.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: Lighter
Date: 12 Aug 19 - 03:02 PM

I suggested above (not entirely facetiously) that Starr might have been a fan of "Palace Grand," and there fore used the name "Behrynge" in his own poem.

But we can now rule that out. Starr's poem, "One Place in Heaven," appeared much earlier in the Emporia [Kansas] News, Dec. 2, 1870, p. 2, predating "Loving, but Unloved" by some months.

There ought to be some connection, however. The name "Behrynge" appears to be unique to these two poems. They appeared within months of each other. Starr's poem appeared in an eastern Kansas paper, and the "Palace Grand" song seems to have been traditional solely in neighboring Missouri.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Aug 19 - 03:25 PM

'The language and the tune are both typical of the Victorian parlour ballad, as I've said; and I'm not backing down on that until someone proves me wrong!' Malcolm Douglas: 17 years ago to the month!

Subject: RE: Origins: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: GUEST,Mike Yates
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 10:46 AM

I have probably mentioned this before, but the late Peter Opie - he of 'The Lore and Language of School Children' - once said that anything that sounded old was probably modern, whereas anything that sounded modern was probably old. I'm with Steve on this one. It is Victorian, and certainly no older.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: Lighter
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 01:09 PM

One explanation may be that "Francis Behrynge" was really J. F. Starr, whose local fame in southern Missouri and/or eastern Kansas led some people to memorize his or her song (or poem).

Perhaps it was set afloat by a broadside.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 02:53 PM

Palace Grand by Barbara Dickson, live.

With thanks to Guest,Mark of 09 Feb 17 - 11:14 AM

Subject: RE: Origins: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: GUEST,Kenny B(Inactive)
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 03:26 PM

Palace Grand Singer Ginny Hawker from" Letters fro my Father"

and recent comment from Jordan McCord

Subject: RE: Origins: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 05:26 PM

I always think of Kendall Morse when I hear this song. To me, it began with Kendall. I think he did the definitive recording of this song.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: GUEST,Alfie
Date: 15 Jan 20 - 01:50 PM

Why does nobody ask how this poor chap has lost his life, and who might have been responsible? Is it so obvious that nobody feels the need to point it out?

This is a very beautiful song, but for me a large chunk of the beauty lies in the ambiguity: I suspect that she's done him in, but I can't be sure. Why should she a mourner be? After all, she's (probably) killed him. And why? Well, because (reversing the lines) he was the world to her but she was nothing to him. Is that not the whole point of this wonderful song? Again, if I'm just stating the obvious I apologise for the noise.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Feb 20 - 08:36 AM

The Schneyer/Perdue version given by Joe Offer (06 Jan 08 - 01:39 AM) makes sense. The singer falls in love with the man, but he's involved with Lady Mary and he somehow dies. If Lady Mary can't get anywhere with him either (as in the Baez/Durham version) the lyrics make little sense and the song becomes confusing.

I think she's a prostitute who has fallen in love with a customer. Otherwise why mention a fee? The kiss is her fee, but why should she mention a fee at all, unless she normally charges?

Subject: RE: Origins: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: GUEST,Phil L
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 08:19 AM

I don't see anything confusing in the song. The story is simply one of the unrequited love of a woman for a man who is in a loveless marriage. The fee is the price of love, measured in emotion not money. When he dies the woman asks herself - why should I mourn him when he ignored me all this time? and what will happen if we meet in heaven?

The words and tune are simple and should not be analysed to closely. It's beauty is in it's simplicity and how it feels is more important than it's structure.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: GUEST,KenH
Date: 28 Dec 22 - 07:33 PM

He was passing by and stopped at a cottage, perhaps to rest his horse. She was a young girl resident at the cottage and fell deeply in love with him on sight. He didn't notice her. He went on and married a wealthy woman not capable of love. Loving him, she pitied his sad fate and hopes (uncertainly) that in paradise their potential happiness (where class doesn't matter) might be realised.