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Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!

harpgirl 03 Aug 02 - 12:20 AM
katlaughing 03 Aug 02 - 01:09 AM
Troll 03 Aug 02 - 06:07 AM
katlaughing 03 Aug 02 - 09:39 AM
GUEST 03 Aug 02 - 09:44 AM
katlaughing 03 Aug 02 - 10:06 AM
GUEST 03 Aug 02 - 10:45 AM
GUEST 03 Aug 02 - 11:21 AM
Bobert 03 Aug 02 - 11:27 AM
Amos 03 Aug 02 - 11:27 AM
GUEST 03 Aug 02 - 11:37 AM
Bobert 03 Aug 02 - 11:47 AM
GUEST,Friend of our Guest 03 Aug 02 - 11:52 AM
GUEST,truckerdave 03 Aug 02 - 11:56 AM
GUEST 03 Aug 02 - 11:58 AM
harpgirl 03 Aug 02 - 11:58 AM
DougR 03 Aug 02 - 11:59 AM
harpgirl 03 Aug 02 - 12:03 PM
katlaughing 03 Aug 02 - 12:07 PM
katlaughing 03 Aug 02 - 12:10 PM
GUEST 03 Aug 02 - 12:26 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 03 Aug 02 - 12:44 PM
katlaughing 03 Aug 02 - 01:07 PM
GUEST 03 Aug 02 - 01:20 PM
Bobert 03 Aug 02 - 01:57 PM
GUEST 03 Aug 02 - 02:23 PM
Lonesome EJ 03 Aug 02 - 02:31 PM
Bobert 03 Aug 02 - 02:57 PM
GUEST 03 Aug 02 - 03:15 PM
Bobert 03 Aug 02 - 04:48 PM
kendall 03 Aug 02 - 05:07 PM
DougR 03 Aug 02 - 05:38 PM
DougR 03 Aug 02 - 05:40 PM
GUEST 03 Aug 02 - 05:43 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 04 Aug 02 - 01:32 AM
Troll 04 Aug 02 - 07:51 AM
GUEST 04 Aug 02 - 09:36 AM
harpgirl 04 Aug 02 - 10:40 AM
harpgirl 04 Aug 02 - 10:55 AM
van lingle 04 Aug 02 - 10:57 AM
GUEST 04 Aug 02 - 11:14 AM
Rick Fielding 04 Aug 02 - 11:16 AM
harpgirl 04 Aug 02 - 12:15 PM
harpgirl 04 Aug 02 - 01:44 PM
Bobert 04 Aug 02 - 04:05 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 04 Aug 02 - 10:26 PM
Big Mick 04 Aug 02 - 11:15 PM
harpgirl 05 Aug 02 - 12:04 AM
GUEST,.gargoyle 05 Aug 02 - 01:05 AM
GUEST 05 Aug 02 - 09:14 AM
Big Mick 05 Aug 02 - 10:20 AM
Bobert 05 Aug 02 - 02:52 PM
GUEST 05 Aug 02 - 07:14 PM
Bobert 05 Aug 02 - 07:44 PM
kendall 05 Aug 02 - 07:44 PM
artbrooks 05 Aug 02 - 08:16 PM
Stephen L. Rich 05 Aug 02 - 09:15 PM
GUEST,Friend of Our Guest 05 Aug 02 - 09:31 PM
Bobert 05 Aug 02 - 10:23 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 06 Aug 02 - 12:22 AM
Big Mick 06 Aug 02 - 01:09 AM
GUEST 06 Aug 02 - 11:10 AM
Big Mick 06 Aug 02 - 11:27 AM
harpgirl 06 Aug 02 - 11:28 AM
Big Mick 06 Aug 02 - 11:34 AM
Bobert 06 Aug 02 - 12:04 PM
GUEST 06 Aug 02 - 12:13 PM
DougR 06 Aug 02 - 12:13 PM
GUEST 06 Aug 02 - 12:20 PM
harpgirl 06 Aug 02 - 12:53 PM
DougR 06 Aug 02 - 01:34 PM
Bobert 06 Aug 02 - 02:05 PM
GUEST 06 Aug 02 - 02:19 PM
katlaughing 06 Aug 02 - 02:21 PM
GUEST 06 Aug 02 - 02:33 PM
Bobert 06 Aug 02 - 02:59 PM
GUEST,The Banjoest 06 Aug 02 - 03:04 PM
GUEST 06 Aug 02 - 05:42 PM
artbrooks 06 Aug 02 - 05:57 PM
Big Mick 06 Aug 02 - 06:10 PM
GUEST 06 Aug 02 - 06:25 PM
GUEST 06 Aug 02 - 06:37 PM
artbrooks 06 Aug 02 - 07:48 PM
Bobert 06 Aug 02 - 07:59 PM
GUEST 06 Aug 02 - 08:06 PM
artbrooks 06 Aug 02 - 08:15 PM
NicoleC 06 Aug 02 - 09:20 PM
Bobert 06 Aug 02 - 10:14 PM
artbrooks 06 Aug 02 - 10:41 PM
DougR 06 Aug 02 - 11:27 PM
GUEST 06 Aug 02 - 11:34 PM
Bobert 06 Aug 02 - 11:39 PM
katlaughing 06 Aug 02 - 11:45 PM
Bobert 07 Aug 02 - 12:01 AM
GUEST 07 Aug 02 - 12:06 AM
Big Mick 07 Aug 02 - 12:07 AM
NicoleC 07 Aug 02 - 12:20 AM
GUEST 07 Aug 02 - 12:21 AM
NicoleC 07 Aug 02 - 12:36 AM
Big Mick 07 Aug 02 - 12:53 AM
harpgirl 07 Aug 02 - 01:00 AM
GUEST 07 Aug 02 - 01:13 AM
GUEST,.gargoyle 07 Aug 02 - 01:47 AM
GUEST 07 Aug 02 - 01:54 AM
Kaleea 07 Aug 02 - 03:23 AM
harpgirl 07 Aug 02 - 07:42 AM
Bobert 07 Aug 02 - 08:55 AM
Big Mick 07 Aug 02 - 09:28 AM
katlaughing 07 Aug 02 - 09:41 AM
GUEST 07 Aug 02 - 10:33 AM
GUEST 07 Aug 02 - 10:46 AM
harpgirl 07 Aug 02 - 11:33 AM
GUEST 07 Aug 02 - 01:15 PM
GUEST,Ewan McVicar 07 Aug 02 - 04:18 PM
DougR 07 Aug 02 - 08:03 PM
Bobert 07 Aug 02 - 09:17 PM
catspaw49 07 Aug 02 - 10:39 PM
katlaughing 07 Aug 02 - 11:09 PM
DougR 08 Aug 02 - 02:35 AM
GUEST,.gargoyle 08 Aug 02 - 03:29 AM
GUEST,Ewan McVicar 08 Aug 02 - 04:49 AM
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Subject: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: harpgirl
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 12:20 AM

Here's where to start!

Protest The War!


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 01:09 AM

I was serious, too. Really glad you started this thread! Here's another org. which is gathering opinions and, I am sure, will move this up to current campaign status; it's a good org.: Moveon.org be sure to check their forums where you can post your own opinion and rate those of others.

We need some good slogans/bumper stickers, harpgirl...


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: Troll
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 06:07 AM

Who is A.N.S.W.E.R? Who are the founders, financial backers, etc. Their articles seem a bitlong long on rhetoric. They mention "commissions" that I've never heard of as if they were some sort of official organization charged with the task of investigating specific " International Crimes".
The article speaks as though the guilt of the US were already a foregone conclusion and any "investigating" would simply be to drive the nails in the coffin. Plot your curve and then gather data to fit it, I guess.
Until I know a hell of a lot more about these groups and their total agenda, I'll pass.
The enemy of my enemy is NOT necessarily my friend.

troll


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 09:39 AM

troll, did you look around at the moveon dot org site? It is a grassroots org. of Americans from all sides of the spectrum who got together during the Clinton bs with congress and the cigar. Based on what each person registers as important to them, they spearhead email and letterwriting campaigns to champion the chosen causes. They are on the up and up...I've interviewed them and written articles on them.

I am a bit leary of the one harpgirl listed, too, except that it does seem to be college students, which may bode well.:-)

kat


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 09:44 AM

Hell, my Working Assets phone bill campaigns does better than this.


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 10:06 AM

let your fingers do the walking and then disparage others...how predicatable and childish


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 10:45 AM

No it isn't. It is a realistic assessment of the website. I saw no evidence of serious involvement in the anti-war movement on the web site linked to, and I did further follow-up by doing a web search on the organization collecting funds, the People's Rights Funds, Inc. whose website (which doesn't tell you much of anything about who these people are) found here:

http://www.peoplesrightsfund.org/

So I went to Guidestar, the national database for information on nonprofits (a standard tool used by activists to find financial information on legitimate 501(C)3 nonprofits, and it has no listing there. Guidestar's website is here:

http://www.guidestar.org/index.jsp

This organization isn't in any of the databases those of us working in the social justice movement use to check on an outfit claiming to be a nonprofit. It wasn't listed at the About.com Nonprofit Charitable Orgs:

http://nonprofit.about.com/index.htm

or at the Foundation Center's website list of online nonprofits, found here:

http://fdncenter.net/funders/grantmaker/gws_pubch/publist.html

The fact of the matter is kat, you are the one being childish and naive, not to mention patronizing. I've been around Mudcat long enough enough to know that you love to spout lovely rhetoric, but rarely know shit about the subjects you claim to be so supportive of. Like this for instance. Rather than playing along with the internet chat group activists -) here at Mudcat, I'd rather just be honest, and call a spade a spade. If that offends you, so be it. This website looks suspicious to me.

I also posted to the Orwellian thread, telling harpgirl that if she wanted help finding a way to get connected into the anti-war movement, to post her city of residence, and I would post contacts for her in the thread.

Everyone else, I suggest you put on your caveat emptor glasses when viewing this website.


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 11:21 AM

Also, I would like to point out that this "international march" isn't on the radar at Protest.net:

http://www.protest.net/

Or at Peace.Protest.net:

http://pax.protest.net/

The latter page is where the anti-war actions get posted. Indymedia's Peace page links to Peace.Protest.net, for instance. The Indymedia website is the most linked site for social justice activism in the world, and this organization isn't on their radar either.

Here is AFSC's (American Friends Service Committee) Campaign of Conscience website on Iraq:

http://www.afsc.org/conscience/Default.shtm

The Campaign of Conscience is one of the main peace movement coordinated campaigns, and includes others like Fellowship of Reconciliation, and other organizations who have been in the anti-war movement trenches on Iraq since the Gulf War. People's Rights Fund, Inc. isn't on their radar either.

Nor is there a link to the organization at the Iraq Action Coalition's website here:

http://iraqaction.org/

And finally, the National Network to End the War (one of the biggest coalitions working to end sanctions, etc) doesn't have this group on their list either. Here is their website, which has a member list by state, and this organization (ie both International A.N.S.W.E.R. and People's Rights Fund Inc.) isn't on it. Here is their website:

http://www.endthewar.org/default-new.htm

Any one of these websites I've listed have ways for people to get plugged in to the anti-war effort in their local areas. Rather than reinvent the wheel, it usually makes more sense to join the movement already adept at doing this sort of work.

And I'm currently checking out this organization through movement contacts to see if they are legit. There is the possibility that this is an Internet scam (since all they seem to be about is collecting money). Forewarned is forearmed, as they say.


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 11:27 AM

Chill, GUEST, while your information is appreciated your delivery leaves room for improvement. Attacking folks ain't the way to demonstrate peace, but quite the opposite. There's a big difference between referring to one's behavior as "childish" and " but rarely know sh*t about the subjects you claim to be so supportive of". I'm not condoning Kat's remarks, just pointing out how quickly you were willing to escalate the conflict. This is how wars get started.

Peace is more than words, marching, writing letters. It's about how we react to others and situations. Its about win-win. It's about forgiving without being asked to forgive. It's a state of mind where you want comfort for others. Where you respect others.

Sure, you can go ahead and give me the blast here because I am not the hall monitor of the internet and you have the right to say what you want. I'm not trying to put you down, Guest, put pull you up onto the peace wagon. My motives a peaceful, not adversarial.

Peace

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: Amos
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 11:27 AM

Links to anti-war groups in Japan, England, Minnesota, and Ireland can be found on this page.


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 11:37 AM

Bobert, I ain't no pacifist, so hows about you chill? Anti-war does not = peace, and the activist ain't interchangeable.

Don't like my gruff presentation? Look to kat's post chastising me in a really patronizing way, eh? She fired the first shot, not me. Just because she didn't like my opinion or the way I expressed it, doesn't mean she was right to say disparagingly:

"how predicatable and childish"

What is good for the goose is good for the gander, it's a two way street, etc etc


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 11:47 AM

You're absolutely right, GUEST, anit-war does not + peace, but it's the first step and if that's all you are ready for, then, hey, I'm real happy to have you part of the way there. But I'm real sorry that peace ain't your cup of tea because if it were, I think you'd be enjoying life's journey a tad more. And this isn't directed at personally but just sound advice for all of us.

Peace

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST,Friend of our Guest
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 11:52 AM

I agree with our guest, Kat's beligerence led to his reply. It is the same reason war with Iran is justified.

The responsibility for all deaths in war lies with the aggressor who initiates force, not with those who defend themselves.

War is terrible but sometimes necessary. To win this current war, we must not let an immoral concern with "innocents" weaken our resolve. We have the right to destroy those who initiate force to deprive us of our rights and lives. With full moral certainty we must urge our government to defend our lives, even if that requires nuclear weapons and hundreds of thousands of deaths in terrorist countries such as Iran.


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST,truckerdave
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 11:56 AM

What a laugh. US backed Israeli war crimes!!!!!????????


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 11:58 AM

Bobert, methinks you are trying to either cover your ass here, or make yourself look good in the eyes of your Mudcat cronies.

In response to my post, you try to make it appear as thought pacifists and peace activists are somehow morally superior to non-pacifists and anti-war activists. Where I come from, we call that little game "divide and conquer". Seems to me you ain't much of a peacenik at all if that is what you are about here.


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: harpgirl
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 11:58 AM

...thank you for the feedback, troll. I just began my internet research last night and I haven't gone too far into that particular website. I do see great value in starting research on legitimate anti-war movements with regard to the Iraq/American war which is being telegraphed to US citizenry by the current administration. And I am glad to see the other links being posted. I suspect our politics diverge on this issue but so be it.

I guess you sang "A drop of Saddam's blood wouldn't do us any harm..." while you were in Japan, then, eh??????

As for Guest, I appreciate your research and information. As for "playing along with the internet chat group activists"; I'm sure that bringing this up will get many people thinking and some more to act. hg hg


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: DougR
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 11:59 AM

The sky is falling!

DougR


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: harpgirl
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 12:03 PM

...geez kat, I'm sorry I started something that has led to this aggressive attack on your remarks. I sinceerely, think that some of us mudcatters might be interested in investigating and acting against an Iraq/American war. So perhaps you folks should have a few shots at me, as well???


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 12:07 PM

FIRST GUEST said, Hell, my Working Assets phone bill campaigns does better than this. That's it, that's all....leading one to believe IT meant harpgirl's efforts and those of others on this website were worthless. There was nothing saying otherwise, which led me to make an observation.

Quite a psychological phenomenon you've got there...taking the high road through anonymity...sure can't prove anything about yourself that way, though, can you? What protest march were you last in? Oh, you were the one with a bag over your head? WOuldn't want the neighbours to know it was you, eh?


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 12:10 PM

I'm sorry, too, harpgirl, just didn't feel like letting it slide this time. I agree with your reasons for starting this thread and will read it with interest. Thanks...


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 12:26 PM

Assailing my anonymity won't change the fact that I provided everyone here with valuable information, and did so without kowtowing to your overly sensitive hissy fit, kat.

You read WAY too much into my original post, which was not a comment on you or harpgirl, but the organization to which the link was provided. Maybe if you could get beyond the fact that just because someone chooses to remain anonymous, doesn't automatically mean they are here solely to attack members. That is your paranoia, and your chosen reality, not mine.

If you were serious and genuine about the anti-war effort, you could actually apologize for getting all snooty to begin with kat. Or is that not something the too-proud members can do in the name of peace here?


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 12:44 PM

Even the doves are turning hawkish

Clinton says he would die to defend Israel

Associated Press - New York - Friday, June 02, 2002

Former President Clinton, who avoided the Vietnam War, told Jewish supporters in Toronto that he would fight and die to protect Israel if Iraq or Iran ever invaded.

"The Israelis know that if the Iraqi or the Iranian army came across the Jordan River, I would personally grab a rifle, get in a ditch, and fight and die."

Clinton was accused of ducking the draft during the Vietnam era. He received and induction notice but got a deferment when he promised to participate in an ROTC program. He never jhoined the program. He later withdrew his deferment but drew a lottery number too high to be drafted.

The times they are a changing!

Sincerely,
Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 01:07 PM

If you were serious and genuine about the anti-war effort, you'd give it a rest, chalk it up to not posting as clearly as possible, and quit trying to start a war here on the Mudcat.


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 01:20 PM

I'm doing no such thing kat. And your ignorance about what the true spirit of peace and justice work is all about is showing again.

So-called "wars" in your little world of internet music chat sites bear no resemblance to war in the real world, and to suggest that they are somehow comparable is vicious and irresponsible.

Maybe you need to spend a lot less time in internet chat forums, and more time serving your fellow human citizens.

Try chastising others for giving information about social justice activism here AFTER you get serious about social justice work, kat. Your words ring pretty hollow to me.


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 01:57 PM

GUEST:

I don't have to cover my boney Wes Ginny butt here because I have consistently preached the same message here in Catsburg since tunneling my way in. The first thread I started was "Department of Peace", which, sure, I'd be willing to compromise here with you and rename it the Department of Anti-War. Okay?

Others:

Though I have not conducted an investigation of moveon.org nor will I, I think there is some valuable information at this site. I would also urge you all to keep the letters and emails headed toward your representatives and senators in Washington, D.C. so they will know there are a lot of folks who don't agree with the Bush administration's foriegn policy. (And for those who feel compelled to defend Bush by bashing Clinton, forget it. That dog don't hunt no more. Nothing happens in the past and the US is now trying to figure out it's role as super power and not doing too good a job of it, at present...)

Peace (Anti-War, for others...)

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 02:23 PM

Odd that a "peacenik" such as yourself Bobert, has nothing to say about the organizations I've posted links to--an oversight in your recommendations, perhaps? Or are you, like kat, just to petty to admit when you are wrong, and defer to people who clearly know what they are talking about, despite their choice to remain anonymous?

Nah, it was no oversight. You are just pissed off because I won't play along with your "Mudcat nice" game. It is perfectly clear that in the Mudcat, people much prefer talking the talk about peace, to walking the walk.

Pretenders, poseurs, and posturers play those games. Not real life activists.


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 02:31 PM

Let me just say that I am every bit as serious about grabbing a rifle and getting in a ditch to defend Israel as Bill Clinton is. I also never inhaled.

The site listed by Harpgirl looks awfully pro-Palestinian to me. While I agree the US has been too pro-Israel in past, I'm suspicious.

Personally, I hope Saddam agrees to abide by rules mandating international inspection of his facilities, and averts any hostility. He has done so before, and then booted the inspectors out enough times that his good intentions have lost all credibility. Apparently he wants to talk again in the face of impending hostilities. I don't think any conversation should take place without firm consequences of repetition of his previous behavior.


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 02:57 PM

GUEST:

Hope this doesn't ruin your day, but I'm not at "pissed off" here. Even during some of my more memorable rants here in the Catbox, I have confined whatever "pissed-offedness" to policies and policy makers who I feel are not moving the country and planet toward a saner level of coexistence.

My friend, DougR, who is at the opposite end of the politiacl spectrum, would probably attest to the fact that personal attacks are not my style. Yeah, we've been known around the Catbox to disagree but we don't go calling each other names nor do we pass judgement on each other as people. But, yep, we do disagree as most folks around here know.

Now, GUEST, as for the links you have been kind enough to share with us, I am planning on spending time tonight at home delving into them. I am at work and am not able to do much more than throw in a few thoughts here and there between my customers. I usually save my serios reading for home where there are no interuptions. So as to not tie up this thread, if you'd like you can send me a PM with your email adress and I'll give you my impressions of those links directly.

Lastly, I think you have me confused with Phil Oaks (or whoever it was) "Liberal", GUEST. Ain't me. Liberals drive Volvos with Gore/Lieberman bumperstckers. I drive a beat to crap Toyota or my 63 Volkswagen with "Developers Don't Go To Hell, They Build it Here" and Green Praty bumper stcikers.

And lastly, Part 2, Guest. At least on this thread, I'm going to give the rest of the Catfolk a break and not continue responding specificlly to your posts. And this isn't about being "pissed off" like you think I ma though I am not. It's just out of respect for the importance of this thread. Like I said, PM me if you like and I'll get back with you off to the side, one on one...

Peace

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 03:15 PM

Bobert, I've been doing peace and justice work since 1970. Let me just say that if you are, as you claim to be here in Mudcat, a peace activist, I find it pretty shocking that you would have to "investigate and read about" the major social justice organizations of the Catholic, Quaker, Jewish, and Protestant denominations. But hey--what do I know? I'm just anonymous, so nothing I say can be legitimate to paranoid Mudcat members.

And as to MoveOn:

MoveOn claims to be a nonprofit, and says it uses the The San Francisco Foundation Community Initiative Fund as it's sponsor.

The San Francisco Foundation website can be found here:

http://www.sff.org/

It has never granted monies to an organization called MoveOn, but it doesn't have to if all they are doing is acting as fiscal sponsor. However, there is no list of organizations it provides fiscal sponsorship for. It appears this group has raised some serious bucks, though, so I doubt they need to apply for grants to stay in business. The founders are software developers from Silicon Valley, and seem to be working for/with the Democratic Party in the San Francisco Bay area.

The organization doesn't show up at Guidestar, which means it doesn't file IRS Form 990 or 990EZ (the tax return forms for nonprofits). However, it is possible that the SFF files taxes on it's behalf as it's fiscal sponsor.

The reason why I mention all this, is that what often happens with organizations like this (it was founded as a de facto Democratic Party "response" to the Clinton/Lewinsky affair) which begin life as single issue organizations, is that they can lose effectiveness over time.

Also, some of you might want to know that this organization had some clout with the California Dems, and undertook a pretty considerable anti-Green Party and pro-Gore/anti-Nader campaign in the last election. The only activity of this organization I found any evidence of after their initial petition campaign online was emails/messages from the founder, Wes Boyd (as recently as June 2002). But beyond that, they seem to have dropped off the activist radar as an organization. Looks to me like the org founders are still active in Dem Party interests in that way, but not much beyond that. They have a PAC contribution site, which funnels money to endangered Dem Party candidates.

It seems they still collect money to donate to Democratic Party candidates of their choice, and perhaps may still be gathering on-line petitions and email campaigns, but they aren't doing anything I, as an activist, would consider to be beyond pure partisan party politics.

Of course, if Dem Party politics is what you are all about, hey--crack open the checkbook, sign their petitions to be sent to (and ignored by Congress), and continue spouting off on in internet forums, just like the MoveOn folks do!

I guess that IS Dem Party loyals idea of grassroots activism, even if some of us who do non-partisan activist work see it as protecting your own self-interests by supporting your personal status quo (ie the Democratic Party).

And just for DougR, here is some balance, the Daily Pundit website:

http://www.dailypundit.com/archives/002812.php

So, before anyone rushes off to the secure donations website for MoveOn, I suggest doing a bit more homework, to see how active this organization truly is. I could find no other information on the organization after 1999 in my Internet searches. And I welcome being proved wrong, BTW. Accurate information is always better than proving one's self right (or just being self-righteous as the case may be).


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 04:48 PM

Ain't really into testimonials, GUEST, but when you came into activism, I had been on the front lines for 5 years. And I confess to not even looked at yopur links because there were so many of them, I just skimmed your post with intentions of reading them later tonight, which I will.

Gotta go cut the grass.

Later

Peace

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: kendall
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 05:07 PM

Gargoyl, just to get some balance here, that beady eyed phoney also avoided the draft by joining the Texas National guard; then not showing up for training, and now, he has the balls to wear that flight jacket. Bush needs enemies to stay in office, but, when the body bags start coming home, I'm going to worry about my granson who is 18 on the 7th. Remember, we will be in this one alone.


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: DougR
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 05:38 PM

Yep, Bobert, I agree with you statement. You never have attacked anyone on a personal basis that I know of. If you were going to, it certainly would have been me, I would think, and you haven't.

I'll skip on out of this thread now so that you anti-whatevers can go on about your business. :>)

DougR


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: DougR
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 05:40 PM

Before I go, though, LEJ, do you suppose he would know which end of the rifle goes against his shoulder?

DougR


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 05:43 PM

Really, Bobert? You were a peace activist in 1965? Which "front line" were you working on? I'm genuinely curious, because I don't know of a single Mudcatter who has roots that deep or old in the peace movement. As I said, accurate information is much more important than being right.

I'm still sceptical about your claims, mind you. Anyone with roots that deep in the peace movement would immediately recognize the names of the organizations I've cited for harpgirl, allowing as they all go back even further than you do in the movement. Nonetheless, I'd love to hear what your life as an activist has been about.


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 04 Aug 02 - 01:32 AM

GUEST - lighten up .... I've been hangin round here for a while...and most of these FOLK are posers...not all of them...but many of them...particularly the ones you are currently doing battle with........you have called their bluff...........save your energy....

If they were legit in the areas of folk AND peace...they would acknowledge...Let there be peace on earth....and let it begin with me.

I on the other hand am a capitalist with heavily vested interests in the war-industry...but won't touch tobacco or liquor for ethical reasons.

Carry on...its good to have you around.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: Troll
Date: 04 Aug 02 - 07:51 AM

Harpgirl, I am still in Japan and will be here until at least Nov.,27, 2002 unless my contract gets extended.
When I sing "Roll the Old Chariots", I sing "A drop of Nelsons blood..." This is not a gig in which I feel that I should express any political sentiment of any stripe. For one thing, most of my listeners wouldn't understand me and those did understand would be offended. I am employed to provide atmosphere and entertainment, not political commentary.
If this menas that I'm no longer entitled to call myself a folksinger, so be it. I've been singing all my life and I don't need a label to continue doing that.
I realize that your post was probably just a bit of humor but it struck me in a funny way.
Gargoyle, good comments.

troll


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Aug 02 - 09:36 AM

A little deeper digging, and I find out that International ANSWER Coalition is in fact, Ramsey Clark's(former AG)post-9/11 organization. He is founder of the International Action Center, website found here:

http://www.iacenter.org/

The reason why International ANSWER wasn't showing up on many of the highly visible peace organizations' websites is due to a bit of political in-fighting. It looks to me as if there was a bit of a split over the April 20th Coalition's decision to hold their main march on Washington the same day as ANSWER had planned theirs. It got sorted out, as these things usually do, by everyone coming together and deciding to hold their marches together.

So, I don't know how the information that the website provided by harpgirl is run by Ramsey Clark will influence people's opinions of the organization one way or the other. He is a very strong supporter of the Palestinian cause (A Good Thing, IMO), but he has made some very controversial choices about the people he has chosen to defend over the years, but that is par for the course for famous lawyers.

So harpgirl--you did good finding this website, it is perfectly legitimate. I apologize for causing you consternation, and I hope my leaping in with information casting doubt on your choice of organizations hasn't resulted in you second guessing your own judgment. You did very well holding your own with me (not an easy thing to do, I might add). If you are going to become involved in activist work, you will need that skill.

Again, best of luck finding your way.


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: harpgirl
Date: 04 Aug 02 - 10:40 AM

I am truly sorry if I caused you discomfort, Jon. I only meant to be cynical, a part of my real self and one of the ways I view the world.

BTW, we missed you at the FFF and I gave Lisa a picture of you, Joe Offer, Gail K., and Uncle Ray that I took in 99' when we were jamming. I hope you get to see it. Please accept my apologies, I didn't meant to disparage your work at Disney in Japan in any way. I am quite envious of such a fun opportunity, troll...peace...hg


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: harpgirl
Date: 04 Aug 02 - 10:55 AM

...oh and GUEST, I am not inclined to feel humiliation when I don't know something; which happens quite often, I might add, both in terms of music and with regard to politics and a host of other topics. I value to breadth and depth of knowledge available to me in this "chat room" on all the subjects we cover in the course of our conversations. I'm only upset when I've inadvertantly offended folks I care about and I see that I have caused them distress, even when they deny it. (But it's harder to respond sincerely when that happens, I find.)

As for activism, my thirty years of social work activity only qualify me as an expert in one small place in the universe, in the piney woods of north florida....but Ann Arbor in the sixties has shaped my life irrevocably...peace...hg


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: van lingle
Date: 04 Aug 02 - 10:57 AM

Key to preventing this Iraqi war that Bush Jr. has been lobbying for for some time now is to provide him with a new congress at the mid-terms that won't put up with this nonsense. vl


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Aug 02 - 11:14 AM

It can be very difficult to do anti-war/peace organizing when your livelihood depends upon serving communities with a strong military presence. I don't know how much of that is the case for you in Tallahassee. You have said elsewhere that you work with military families in your social work, so I'm assuming you have a client base rooted in the military communities (active and retired I'd guess) of northern Fla.

In my mind, social work is activism of one sort. And there are many. But I understand that "coming out" as a peace activist could work against your professional standing, because peace activists are almost always viewed as the enemy by military people and their families. Of course, that doesn't mean that peace activism is non-existent in communities where military bases are located. That was my first apprenticeship as a full time peace and justice activist, in fact. There was a tremendous amount of misinformation, urban myth and fear about us in the military community. It was so bad where I was living, that military folk had a very difficult time reconciling me as a peace activist. Military folk who worked with me and knew me socially found it almost impossible to believe I was one of "those people." It was quite difficult for them to reconcile themselves to the fact that they were in the presence of a social justice activist opposed to their military mission, who they found to be quite a normal, likeable human being. They really thought I should be foaming at the mouth, and committing dastardly secret deeds that would destroy the US. :)


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 04 Aug 02 - 11:16 AM

"Really, Bobert? You were a peace activist in 1965? Which "front line" were you working on? I'm genuinely curious, because I don't know of a single Mudcatter who has roots that deep or old in the peace movement."

Hi GUEST. Yes you do.

I was pretty young and the names Tommy Douglas, Therese Casgrain, and the CCF, may not much to you if you're not Canadian....but thanks to my parents who encouraged me to look listen and read, and NEVER swallow ANY information without investigating it to the best of my ability, my involvement started early. Hypocracy among certain leaders has occasionally caused me to waver though.

Interesting thread.

Cheers

Rick


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: harpgirl
Date: 04 Aug 02 - 12:15 PM

Interesting point, GUEST. I don't depend primarily for my livelihood upon my contractual agreement with Champus/Tricare, however. It's only one of many contractual agreements I maintain. I hadn't thought about what impact high visibility peace activism might have on the rest of my work activities. Knowing myself, if I ever do become more visible in peace activism, I won't give a flip about how it will affect my contractual work....

BTW troll, I think sharing your vast storehouse of musical/cultural knowledge with folks on the other side of the world is very important. The more we try to understand one another's culture, the better we might be able to get along.

If you're lonely over there, find masato sakurai. He has certainly contributed to international understanding with his knowledge of american folk music and culture! Or maybe you have met one another already! peace, hg


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: harpgirl
Date: 04 Aug 02 - 01:44 PM

one more thing and then I'll shut up. As for our mudcatters being posers, Gargoyle...you were a boyscout for cripe's sake, so being a gargoyle in mudcat is your pose! You of all people should be aware that many of our hawkish and dovish folkies and artistic types are disabled and are not likely to venture far from their homes to make their true beliefs known. This forum provides an outlet for their views!

Oh, and you mean you didn't drink beer at the hashes when you were the Songmeister? What about all those marches with the Philmont Rangers? You must have given up beer lately...love and peace hg


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Aug 02 - 04:05 PM

GUEST: Not that getting into a resume swapping contest with you, which is counter productive, but in the fall of 1965, I co-founded the first leftest student group at what was Richmond Professional Institute (RPI0 which is now Virgibia Commonwealth University in Richmond, Va. The name of the organization was Students for Individyal Rights (SIR) and in the spring of 1966, long before it bacame fashionable to speak out against the Viet Nam war we organized the first anit-wae demonstration ever held in the city called the "Puppy Burn". Yep we ran off poster on a hand crank printer and had had over a 1000 folks show up incensed that we were going to burn a puppy. You guessed it. No puppy. But we were there with thousands of leaflets, and speakers and a couple of right thinking (not right wing) clergy folk to add creditbility.

Well, that was Chapter 1 and the beat goes on. I'm not going to bore you with SDS, SOC, M-LAP, R-CAP, SCLC, et al but to round out my activism you may research a memorial service that I organized from scratch less than 2 years ago for black laborers who were buried in the Churchill Tunnel collapse of 1925, after the white engineers bofy was recovered. Yes, 75 years later the racist government of the City of Richmond has never made any attempt to honor those men of color. If you have any interest in that story you'll find it if you find the Richmond Times Dispatch. It was covered by Mark Holmhberg.

With these things stated, GUEST, I'm going back to posting to the spirit of the thread. Again, if you have additional interests in the many chapters between 1965 and the civil rights memorial or what I am currnetly involved with then you'll have to PM me with an email address...

Peace

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 04 Aug 02 - 10:26 PM

HARPIE!... Genuinely, sorry about the disabilities and desire a speedy removal from your pain.

Read your posting thru several times....you've tagged the wrong gargoyle's tail...I don't understand the ramble.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: Big Mick
Date: 04 Aug 02 - 11:15 PM

Well done, Bobert! The self righteous poster who uses many names has an arrogance that is almost palpable. I thought she was particularly patronizing when Harpgirl was informed what a good scout she was to be able to hold her own with her, even ending it with "not an easy thing to do, I might add". A giant in her own mind. Must be she swims in shallow water. Harpgirl has shown many times, that she is capable of holding her own and besting those that are unprepared. At any rate, GUEST's sites check out and many are very good. Too bad that this person of many personna's can't settle on one and just weigh in.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: harpgirl
Date: 05 Aug 02 - 12:04 AM

...okay garg, whatever....my disabilities aren't immediately visible though , and they mostly cause other people pain....hg


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 05 Aug 02 - 01:05 AM

PAX

Excerpt ( concluding paragraph )

DISLIKES

By Oliver Wendel Holmes

Library Edition – The Wit and Humor of America – vol III – Funk and Wagnell's Company 1907

Holmes is reflecting upon people he dislikes and concludes:

There is one blameless person whom I can not love and have no excuse for hating. It is the innocent fellow-creature, otherwise inoffensive to me, whom I find I have involuntarily joined on turning a corner. I suppose the Mississippi, which was flowing quietly along, minding its own business, hates the Missouri for coming into it all at once with its muddy stream. I suppose the Missouri in like manner hates the Mississippi for diluting with its limpid, but insipid current the rich reminiscences of the varied soils through which its own stream has wandered. I will not compare myself to the clear of the turbid current. But I will own that my heart sinks when I find all of a sudden I am in for corner confluence, and I cease loving my neighbor as myself until I can get away from him.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Aug 02 - 09:14 AM

I'm sure Fellowship of Reconciliation supporters will sleep better at night, knowing that the Mudcat members (many of whom claim to be dedicated to "peace") think they are "legit". Even though not one of the aforementioned, self-proclaimed "peace activists" had ever heard of them.

For those of you who can't be bothered with actually going to the websites of the main organizations active in the national peace movement, let me just say that the majority of them have a history of activism that dates back to World War I.

As usual here in Mudcat, none of this information will change minds though, will it? Because this non-argument had nothing to do with actual facts surrounding peace activism. It was all about Mudcat guard dogs coming to the rescue of a member they (wrongly) felt was being attacked by an anonymous poster. Any lively and informative discussions here where criticism of a member's position by (usually) an anon guest, sets off all the alarm bells, and the guard dogs attack.

Too bad people are really that petty, because it sure as hell gets in the way of many an otherwise good discussion in the forum. But what the hell--c'est la guerre.


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Aug 02 - 10:20 AM

You tickle me with the way you try to set a predicate............and even if someone doesn't bite on it you just go on as if they did. Once again your self view doesn't match what is happening.

First off, let me say that your sites were well researched but the fact that you know how to cite them only testifies to your academic background, not your activism. Thus, based on your writings above, I have every reason to suggest the same things about you that you suggest about Bobert. You claim that you have been at it since 1970, but you cite nothing as evidence. Bobert gave specifics. When I factor in your record in trying to do all you can to discredit the site and the folks that come here on a regular basis, I must tell you that I prefer the Boberts of the world. As a person who has done much of the street level work for many causes including this one over the years (and no, I won't debate my credentials with you) I have seen many who can cite this stuff, but I prefer to work with the men and the women who roll up their sleeves and get to work.

Now.........back to your tactic on the predicate. I set you up. Anyone who reads these threads regularly knows two things about my relationship with both kat and Harpgirl. I think highly of both of them. They have both contributed much over the years, of value to this place. Unlike you, their goal is to be a part of the community and contribute positively to it. The second thing you would know about our relationships is that we often tangle. There are things we just don't agree on. I never defended kat on this one, as I thought she was guilty of what you have charged. She and I just got into it a week ago or so because she did the same to me, IMO. BUT, I also know that that is just our kat just as she knows things about me. So I just let it pass. Our motives aren't to disparage the place and players, we just argue as friends do. Yours, on the other hand, are much more transparent. The way you reacted to her flip remark was way over the top. Ever ask yourself why you do this?

What happened to you? Why such bitterness about this place? Why the many handles, male and female? Who did what to you to turn you into this self righteous, martyr? Come on down off the cross. If it was me that set you down the path, tell me what it was. You are so cranky, that I can only deduce that you are just a bitter person who has built such resentment that you just can't see what you have become. Obviously you weren't always this way, given the things that you seem to discuss with intensity. I sure wish you would examine this, as you obviously have much to contribute, but as it is you are just nasty.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Aug 02 - 02:52 PM

What Big Mick said, GUEST. No I'm sure you are recoiled to react but, hey, re-read what he wrote. If you don't look for hate or anger in his post you won't find it. I only read love and caring, my friend. Everyone goes through stuff that can effect us, if we allow it, in a manner that makes us less friendly, less effective and less pursuasive. You're are a smart person with a lot to bring to the table but this ain't the 60's and we don't have to burn stuff up to get attention. That style just sets the cause back a few steps. In the 60's during Kent St. we had infiltrators in our anit-war group, the Radical Student Union (RSU) who were preaching hate and violence. No one knew them and their ideas didnnot take hold within our membership, but to this very day I believe they were governemnt plants. Yeah, who had the most to gain during Kent St. if the students blew stuff up? Not the cause, that's for sure. The Who says it best, We will not be fooled again!" So I'z here to say that if ya want to yell and scream, save it for the bad guys...

Kat, big Mick and I aren't them, GUEST. Argue as forcefully as you like. I sure have. But keep it about ideas and not personal. And, no I'm not condoning, as I have said, Kat's "childish" remark but compared to your reaction, it was a day in the park...

And, lastly, GUEST, you may have gotten off the path but I love you, brother or sister, you are on the right side of the cause.

Bbobert


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Aug 02 - 07:14 PM

Ah, so now it is crucifixtion you are after, eh guard dogs?

Ye guardians of Mudcat orthodoxy do yourselves so proud. Yet, I do continue to refuse to repent and return to the fold, don't I? Makes you wonder, don't it?

Which said wondering leaves all the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Mudcat Faith all sorts of colors of the rainbow of rage. An apoplexy on all your houses, I say. :)


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Aug 02 - 07:44 PM

GUEST:

The crucifixtion you feel is pure "fixtion", my friend. There is no one here that wants to harm you, figuratively or literally.

Though my motivations have been pure, I'm sorry that I have brought you any level of discomfort or pain. It was not my intent.

I can think of times when someone took the time to pull me aside and help me thru the hard times and I was hoping to do the same for you.

This, my friend, is from the heart.

I will keep you in my prayers and ask God to work hard to break thru to the real GUEST and help you through this angry time of your life. There's so much more.

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: kendall
Date: 05 Aug 02 - 07:44 PM

In 1965 I was part of the establishment, a Barry Goldwater republican, and, almost a John Bircher! My God! I can't believe that was me! I remember thinking, "If these idiots want peace, why the hell are they throwing rocks at men with guns"? For those who know some history, this is almost exactly what happened at the so called "Boston Massacre" History really does repeat itself, or as the wise say, the past is prolog.


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: artbrooks
Date: 05 Aug 02 - 08:16 PM

Which war are we supposed to be "anti" this week? The Israeli war to suppress the legitimite national aspirations of the Palestinian people? The war that the Palestinian militants have chosen to direct toward Israeli civilians rather than against soldiers that can fight back? The war being waged by Columbian rebels/drug lords against the basic concept of a democratic election? The war in Afganistan between the new Afgan government and its Western allies against the remnants of the Taliban and Al Quaida (and picking up on a few old scores at the same time)? Pick up the newspaper or tune in the news program of your choice and take your pick.

BTW, you all do appreciate that ANON.GUEST, regardless of the validity of his/her/its Internet research and anti-war activist credentials, is essentially nothing but a TROLL?


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 05 Aug 02 - 09:15 PM

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but it's too late. It's a done deal. The fix is in.


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST,Friend of Our Guest
Date: 05 Aug 02 - 09:31 PM

Posers and barking guard dogs. That is a good representation.

Given the bitterness spewed across this thread the Shadow (and all the rest of us) now know what evil lurks in the hearts of men, women and micks.


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Aug 02 - 10:23 PM

GUEST, Friend of our guest: Self imposed alienation is not aspiration but masturbation. There are other choices. The stove is hot. Touch it or touch it not...

Yeah, we all have choices....

Peace

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 12:22 AM

Something Bi-Polar is wrong within this thread too much seratonin to the brain...... cut back the meds during the summer soltice.....wait for the equinox!!!!

abort, Abort, ABORT, abort, Abort, ABORT, abort, Abort, ABORT, abort, Abort, ABORT, abort, Abort, ABORT, abort, Abort, ABORT

abort, Abort, ABORT, abort, Abort, ABORT, abort, Abort, ABORT, abort, Abort, ABORT, abort, Abort, ABORT, abort, Abort, ABORT

font color=orange>abort, Abort, ABORT, abort, Abort, ABORT, abort, Abort, ABORT, abort, Abort, ABORT, abort, Abort, ABORT, abort, Abort, ABORT

abort, Abort, ABORT, abort, Abort, ABORT, abort, Abort, ABORT, abort, Abort, ABORT, abort, Abort, ABORT, abort, Abort, ABORT

abort, Abort, ABORT, abort, Abort, ABORT, abort, Abort, ABORT, abort, Abort, ABORT, abort, Abort, ABORT, abort, Abort, ABORT

abort, Abort, ABORT, abort, Abort, ABORT, abort, Abort, ABORT, abort, Abort, ABORT, abort, Abort, ABORT, abort, Abort, ABORT

DANGER WILL ROBINSON!!!

Sincerely,
Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: Big Mick
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 01:09 AM

Denial is the chosen medication for those that don't believe they are ill. I hope you will one day wake up and see that it is in your mind. Now............back to the discussion.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 11:10 AM

Yah sure, all you Catters never get catty. Yah sure, all you Catters never get nasty. Yah sure, all you Catters pray for the souls of lost anon. guests. Yah sure, all you Catters are exemplary examples of how to play nicely with others.

Yah sure.


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: Big Mick
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 11:27 AM

Listen to yourself, step back, breathe, and listen to yourself. You are so lost in your bitterness that you refuse to read what is said. It seems to me that you have set your walls so firmly, created your own reality, that you don't even "hear" what is said. I pointed out in my last post that we in fact do get nasty, do have issues.......because we are a "community". Interaction always produces this. But we get over it because our intent is different. for some reason you have got yourself to a place that the disruption and pointing out what is wrong with all of us is the important thing. Usually this happens when someone doesn't want others looking to closely at them. That is why you don't really read what others have posted, ignoring the reality so that your arguments will still stand. That is why you use multiple identities, to try and keep confusion going do no one can see you.

I wish you would stop and just post. I can tell from the things you are passionate about that you and I and others would have much in common. That doesn't mean we wouldn't disagree, as passionate as you seem to be I can guarantee that there would be vigorous debate. But it doesn't mean anything personal. It is just the debate. Anyone in academia knows that.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: harpgirl
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 11:28 AM

Hi GUEST. I did truly intend for this question to lead me to more information about any current anti-war action with regard to the Iraqi/American war, which seems imminent to me and frightens me a great deal when I allow myself to think about it.

Moreoever, my active duty contacts and RC activities aimed at addressing mass casualties make me worry for the fate of my own nineteen year old son, who is in college now.

It is my sincere wish that this conversation redirect itself to personal issues associated with the possibility of another more serious US involvement in War.

One of the things I did during the Gulf War was a small workshop with Charles Figley,(a good friend) for the families of active duty service personnel (about one hundred people locally). It quickly became very personal and taught me much more than I offered myself, in a way.

I am deciding that my best use of resources with regard to this possible new war might be in terms of large scale workshops along the same lines.

I do feel that my gifts lie in small group and individual communication about those issues which most impact my fellow human beings in the north florida piney woods.

Thank you all for the sincere input. And garg, I wish school would get back in session. You have entirely too much free time, at the moment, I think!!!! love and peace hg


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: Big Mick
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 11:34 AM

Sorry, Harpgirl. I will refrain from anymore and get back to the topic at hand.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 12:04 PM

Yeah, Harpgirl, I agree with you that the current adminstration is having its way, and unfortunately its way has on top of its list, a war with Iraq. I do find it hard to believe that the right wingers have so manipulated the US population thru gadgets, debt, misinformation and fear that there is not a groundswell of folks coming out and saying, "Hell no! We won't go!" What's it gonna take? Lots of loss of life and another lesson that war solves nothing, especially in these times with a world economy and most everyone on the planet tribalized?

I have reaqd many of the links that have been provided in this thread and have joined some of these organizations but I am concerned that not enough folks will satnd up and be counted this time because of the fear that results when one sees just how willing the Ameican people are to let the right wingers strip away one freedom after another in the name of security when security of the nation is so threatned by the loss of freedom.

I will say this, Harpgirl, it is time restart this thread and leave some of the personal issues behind us so that the information is not so disrupted. It is the most imporatant thing happening in the US right now and needs to be unencumbered. It's your thred so I'm not going to be the one to redirect it but would recommend it being redirected. Just my opinion.

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 12:13 PM

That would be very good Big Mick, because I'm frankly sick and tired of your & Boberts dimestore psychology attempts to analyze me, and prayers to save my sorry ass soul.

Harpgirl--you go girl. I think your idea is dead brill, and you certainly have your work cut out for you. But if your "audience" is to be mostly military, I'd downplay associations with the peace movement. There are PLENTY of military people who will support you, so long as you aren't associated with the hardcore nuns and priests who go to jail for civil disobedience.

My daughter's h.s. math teacher is a really dead on guy who saw combat in the Gulf War (and there aren't that many of them, despite the common myths surrounding the military in that war). He isn't the least bit academic or intellectual--more working class union family background. But man, does he know the score about the ways both #41's war & #43's war was being marketed and sold for mass consumption. But he is likely more the exception than the rule nowadays among military folks. I don't know, because I'm not as involved with military folk as I was many years back when I first started organizing. There may be a lot more of them who really are against what is now being sold as the fait accompli war against Iraq scenario. After all, they and their kids are the ones who end up doing the fighting.

I think at the officer level of the ranks, there is much more division over whether to go to war with Iraq, because they are looking at Afghanistan right now and going "oh shit--they want to broaden the war, which means a muddying of the mission." I don't know how much of an epiphany the enlisted have had in this regard yet.

Like that Chinese curse, we do certainly seem to be living in interesting times, don't we?


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: DougR
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 12:13 PM

Bobert: I assume it has never occurred to you that the U.S. population you refer to might be right ...and you and those who agree with your view, might be wrong.

Art: Yep, I totally appreciate the fact that GUEST is an accomplished and talented troll. Mick, my friend, I'm afraid you might have got snagged.

DougR


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 12:20 PM

Oh go to hell DougR. I'm not a troll, so stop the pot shots at me, and get back to the topic at hand, which you, Bobert, and Big Mick have decided to hijack.

My identity isn't the important issue, except to lame ass idiots like yourself, who feel more comfortable attacking individuals, than debating the issues. Why? Because you have no solid information with which to back up your crazy claims. You are nothing more than a spoiler windbag, full of hot air.

Stuff a sock in it, and let us discuss the issue without making ME the subject of the thread.


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: harpgirl
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 12:53 PM

Bobert, I have continued some of my thoughts on the other political thread going right now but I agree with you that high visibility anti-war activities may be dangerous in terms of one's own personal freedom in this country right now. This thought also frightens me a great deal.

BTW, I was one of the women who broke off from SDS in Ann Arbor to create more active women only activism activities and one of the first things I did was agitate for, start, design, and then take the very first "Women in Social Work" course at the University of Michigan.

My most recent high visibility work has been a while back. It was a piece of research on HIV/AIDS knowledge which paved the way for AIDS curriculum in graduate schools of Social Work across the country in 1989.

It is referenced all over the web in HIV/AIDS research but we never published it, only gave the paper in Las Vegas at CSWE. I didn't go. I let the famous social workers do it!I am definitely the low profile type. I would like to meet you sometime! love and peace hg


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: DougR
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 01:34 PM

GUEST is not a troll. He told us so.

DougR


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 02:05 PM

Harpgirl: I had some problems with SDS myself at a meeting in Charlottesville, va in 1969. There were a few heavies there, including Jerry Rubin and Bill Kunstler, who were not in the particular meeting but the upshot was that the delegation I was part of from VCU in Richmond representing our independent organization, the Radical Student Union, went back to Richmond as independent. Too many egos and controlling folks. I did enjoy Bill Kunstsler but Jerry Rubin got on my nerves...

DougR: No! Jus funnin with ya'. I know you think I'm a cookie cutter leftest but you'd be surprised to see some of the stuff I'm workin' on now. Yep, holding hands with some real conservatives trying to block developers from raping Loudoun County, Va. Yeah, they know I'm a Greenie, but, hey, I always keep a smile on my face and ask about their families. Pick your battles. But on most issues, hey, I'll come down on the side of the working stiff and not blowing folks up.

GUEST: You're kinda growing on me but don't get too warm and fuzzy a feeling. You're just cranky. So what, right. I'd rather have you on the correct side than the other side. And don't get all blowhard if I pray for you. Hey, I pray for lots of folks. Yeah, my wife and I alternative morning prayers and so I threw you into the mix this morning. Well, the first thing after the Amen" out of her was. "Who's this GUEST person?" Hmmmmmmm? "Danged if I know, Honey..." Just funnin a little here....

Okay, folks what's a good next step in preventing the next stupid war? Dougie? You first...

Peace

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 02:19 PM

You forgot one thing Bobert--Dougie is a big fan of American military might. If his fearless leader #43 tells him via Fox News that that Sadam is one bad ass dude and we should get our military on over there and kick his ass for once and for all (and clear his daddy's name at the same time), by god then that is what Dougie boy is going to be proselytizing for here in the Cat. What Bushie sez is what Dougie do.

Fellas like Dougie don't think for themselves. Especially when it ain't them with their ole ass in the air on the front lines of Baghdad. He is one of them armchair gung-ho types. For his is the kingdom, the power, and the glory.

And amen to y'all too.

As to the SDS, they were never nearly as effective as the US government wanted us to believe. I attended exactly one of their meetings in 1969, and promptly walked out the door when I heard the subject of the meeting was whether or not women should be allowed to sit in the meetings without their shirts on when it was boiling hot (summer of 69), like the men were. Uh huh, I said to myself. Now here are some people who are seriously not interested in ending this war.

However, on the other end of the spectrum were many people like Dave Dellinger, or the Berrigans, or many others who were a bit more serious than Abbie Hoffman, shall we say? Ahem.

For a quick, interesting read about the history of the SDS involvement in the Vietnam era anti-war movement, try here:

http://www.english.uiuc.edu/maps/vietnam/antiwar.html


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 02:21 PM

Bobert, you asked what is it going to take to get people up outta their chairs and protesting. Historically, most action starts with young people, usually on college campuses, right? And, we see some evidence of that, but what I am wondering is if the Internet is a hindrance to others getting involved in a physical way. Do you suppose too many people, beyond college age, just go online, sign a petition, email their congressperson, and call it good? I am NOT saying I think this is necessarily true, just wondering out loud.


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 02:33 PM

The Internet is one of the most important tools being used by young anti-war activists, many of whom have been drawn to the anti-globalization movement post-Seattle.

In other words, they are tired of listening to boomers sitting on their ass, lecturing them about how they shouldn't use confrontational tactics to get their message heard.

Now then, if you saw that Fellowship of Reconciliation was full of wonderful, dedicated, well meaning people who march instead of demonstrate using confrontational tactics, but never get on the radar of the mainstream media (and therefore into the conscious awareness of the majority of the American people), what tactic would you use?

The answer is, this generation isn't following in the footsteps of the "march, but don't make waves" wing of the peace movement. This generation is set to follow the lead of the anti-globalization organizers, and use the tactics of confrontation used in Seattle. If they don't, they will, very simply, never be heard.

The thing to me which is important to keep in mind about the SDS of the Vietnam era and the anti-globalization organizers of this one, is that the SDS eventually began to spin off much more violent factions which targeted humans, instead of military property. Therein lies the difference, IMO. Throwing a bowling ball through a window of the draft office is the not morally equivalent to blowing up people. It it takes bowling balls through the windows of the draft recruiters to get media attention, then I say, lets start passing out the bowling balls.

Yeah--people are definitely going to have to go to jail to stop this war. No doubt about it. Marching to Washington and writing our congressional representatives is not going to stop this war train. Mayhem in the streets will have the effect of focusing on the issue, and making sure it stays on the front page until some voices of reason begin to prevail. Right now they are getting shouted down and drowned out by the Washington bully pulpits in the White House and in Congress.


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 02:59 PM

Danged, GUEST, I thought we were doing well but I ain't into blowin' up nuthin' in the spirit of peace. I do not agree with you that destrution of property will do anything more than it did in the 60's. It just alienates lots of folks on both sides. The Seattle model is a dream come treue for the Ashcrofts and Rich's of the US. All it's gonna do is backfire. I'm beginning to think that we are not only on two different mindsets but two different generations. I don't think you learned the lessons of the 60's movement.

The thing that makes this different is the the right wing has so much control now that I am fearfull that your tactics just might bring about a situation that makes Kent State look like a Sunday picnic then the game is over and the right wing and military will just do what they have wanted to do for a long time, just pull the plug on this little experiement called democracy. Kepp in mind, that these folks are very, very dangeruos and you may be playing into their hands.

I believe that a coilition of young folks, boomers and in betweeners joined in a mass non-violent demonstration, will do more toward exposing the bad guys and winning over the fence sitters, than what you propose. Hey, I'm not shying away from civil disobedience, just not going to give the enemy any reason to kill folks, which they are hyped up to do. Yeah, something like the Moritorium. It was powerful and inclusive. How many middle aged and elderly folks you plan on coming to your bowling ball rumble, GUEST?

Yeah, you may get fooled again, but I won't.

Peace thru non-violent organizing and resistence!

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST,The Banjoest
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 03:04 PM

No!


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 05:42 PM

Bobert, as far as I know, bowling balls don't explode. Like it or not Bobert, the destruction of property as one tactic of many, did do a lot to keep the anti-war movement on the front pages, and the debate open and honest and inclusive. It IS what ended the war.

Here is the real problem though Bobert. You define throwing a bowling ball through a window of a closed office with no one in it, as an act of violence. I don't define that as violence, but as destruction of property. In my mind, and the minds of many, many other peace activists who use desrtruction of property as a non-violent, confrontational tactical tool, such destruction of property is a morally justifiable tool of civil disobedience. Better 1,000 bowling balls through the windows of military recruiters, than violence of the 1,000 dead children in Iraq this week alone, from sanctions. BTW, the current figures are 5,000 Iraqi children die PER MONTH as a result of US sanctions.

So, if you aren't willing to break a window to stop that level of violence Bobert, just what do you propse IS morally responsible?

BTW, I'm not advocating any tactic that many, many non-violent peace activists haven't used in the past in their confrontational campaigns, including the international anti-nuclear "Swords into Plowshares" activists who have targeted military installations and materials for destruction of property.

Highly principaled people have engaged in these protests Bobert, including politicians, religious leaders, artists, and many others. It is a tactic with a long, honorable tradition in the peace movement internationally. Here are some sites you can go to and read about the tradition:

http://www.plowshares.se/aktioner/metalgd.html

http://www.warresisters.org/nva996-3.htm

http://www.nonviolence.org/nukeresister/nr113/trident2000.html

You might be particularly interested to read the War Resisters' League's page on the debate re: pro-property destruction vs. con, especially in relation to the Seattle "Black Bloc" protestors:

http://www.warresisters.org/nva0901-2.htm

BTW Bobert, I know just how dangerous the right wing militarists in power in the US and around the world are. I also know that keeping the fragile hold we have on democracy here is going to require more than polite hand-wringing. It requires soldiers willing to fight the good fight with nonviolent, confrontational tactics. Those people who engage in such tactics are already serving prison sentences, as are the Arabs and Muslims who have already been interned without trial by the US government in the US in the name of national security.

Dangerous Bobert? Well hell, tell me something I didn't already know. It takes guts, courage, and fortitude to fight this fascist machine. Some of us never went home to a comfy, safe life in 1973, Bobert. Some of us kept fighting the good fight.


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: artbrooks
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 05:57 PM

5,000 dead children from US sanctions? Not likely! Perhaps you didn't notice that they are UN, not US, sanctions? Or do you think the US controls the UN? Not hardly. And perhaps you were unaware that Iraq has basically unlimited approval to import food and medicine but has chosen an "everything or nothing" approach to the sanctions? After all, 5,000 dead children sounds much more impressive to the uninformed than 5,000 tanks without spare parts.

Does Dubya plan to invade Iraq? Also not hardly. Generations of politicians all over the world have used the threat of war to distract attention from their failed (or nonexistant) domestic policies.


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: Big Mick
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 06:10 PM

Yeah, Bobert, that is the difference between the folks that have their hands in the dirt, and the lace curtain liberal with lofty ideals and a University position. They have their role to play, but they rarely live with the consequence except to say later that they might have erred.

Rule no. 1 in all organizing, regardless of the type, is that it is always a fight for the middle.

Rule no. 2 is that reality is not defined by what is, but what is perceived.

Those of limited imagination and ability throw bowling balls through windows. These folks end up being perceived like they did at the Beer Hall Putsch.   Hearing this from our GUEST does not surprise me, it is the same way she approaches this place. And the result is the same in the minds of the only folks that can really change things in a democratic republic, that is the working folks raising families and voting. These tactics have some limited value for drawing attention, but there are better ways to do it. And have you ever noticed that the anarchistic activists never miss a chance to take over a city and raise hell, but when it comes to real evil, such as the Corporate thieves erasing the fruits of thousands of peoples entire working lives, these folks are sitting on their hands and talking about taking it to the streets. The creative and imaginative organizer will find ways to bring home the message in a better way.

I never thought we would live in a time of greater peril to our young and ourselves than The Cold War. Harpgirl, I apologize for what I am about to say, but you have reason to be fearful for you and your son. This man in the White House views foreign policy in the same way that he viewed running a company. That is as a bottom line entity. That is the philosophy that caused the current crisis in our stock market, and the attitude that anything is OK to reach the goal. There is a reason that laissez-faire capitalism is as much a failed system as pure communism. That is because men and women are not automatons and they make decisions and value judgements, ultimately, based on what is good for them. In the "purity of thought" worlds of the ultra right and far left, anything that helps them achieve their goals is rationalized. That is what this "Homeland Security" shit is about. That is why in 1980 the average CEO made about 47 times what the average employee made, and today it is in excess of 450 times (as of 1998), and probably over 500 times. But it is OK because they sold John Q. the line that anything good for business is good for everyone(trickle down economics.....what a crock!) and used it to put us where we are. And the whole line about how we need to take out Saddam is a feint. As I have said before, it is a red herring. Anytime someone is doing all they can to make me look one place, when other things are going on all around, I know something else is up. At first I thought there was hope because of Colin Powell and Condi Rice. Clearly they have been pushed to the rear. So be fearful, Mother. You have every right to be. And don't preach in church. That is easy. Take it to the streets? Sure, but do it in a way that you don't marginalize the message with the only folks that really have power in this country. Imagine two circles. One circle is your message. The other circle represents the people you need to reach. Now imagine the two circles pushed together until they overlap. The area they overlap is the only chance you have for communication and alliance. It is only when the experiences and concerns of the two overlap that real message can get through. A bowling ball aint it.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 06:25 PM

Radical pacifism has a long, proud history folks, despite your protestations to the contrary. Here is the Columbia Encyclopedia's entry for two more famous American radical pacifists, the Berrigan brothers:

The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. 2001. Berrigan brothers (br´gn) (KEY) , American Catholic priests, writers, and social activists. 1 Daniel Berrigan, 1921–, b. Syracuse, N.Y., was trained in the Society of Jesus and ordained in 1952. Travels in France exposed him to the worker-priest movement, and after teaching at secondary schools and at LeMoyne Coll., he devoted himself in the 1960s to civil rights and antipoverty work, eventually becoming a leading activist against U.S. involvement in the Vietnam War. His poetry had meanwhile appeared in several volumes, including Time Without Number (1957). 2 Philip Francis Berrigan, 1923–, b. Two Harbors, Minn., served in Europe in World War II, grad. from Holy Cross Coll., and was ordained (1955). After holding pastoral and teaching positions, he turned in the 1960s to peace activism. In 1968 the Berrigans were arrested for destroying Selective Service files in Catonsville, Md. While in hiding, Daniel published a play, The Trial of the Catonsville 9 (1969). Both Berrigans served prison terms, and Philip secretly married Sister Elizabeth McAlister, a fellow activist. 3 After being paroled in 1972, both brothers continued their involvement in such actions as "Plowshares" protests at weapons plants. They have been repeatedly arrested and imprisoned, and have continued to write prolifically. 4 See Daniel Berrigan's autobiographical To Dwell in Peace (1987), Night Flight to Hanoi (1968), The Dark Night of Resistance (1971), and his prison memoir, Lights On in the House of the Dead (1974); Philip Berrigan's autobiographical Fighting the Lamb's War (1997), Prison Journals of a Revolutionary Priest (1970), and Widen the Prison Gates (1973). See also biog. of Daniel by R. Curtis (1974); S. Halpert and T. Murray, eds., Witness of the Berrigans (1972); M. Polner and J. O'Grady, Disarmed and Dangerous (1997). 5 The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. Copyright © 2001 Columbia University Press.


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 06:37 PM

The figure of 5,000 deaths per month is from the United Nations, so quibble with them artbrooks.

Here is the quote I lifted it from:

"In 1998 the UN reported that about 5,000 children under five were dying every month from the effects of sanctions-water-borne diseases, insufficient medicine, inadequate food."

My source for the information is "The War Times" newspaper. The front page of this new paper, now being carried nation-wide, carries the headline article titled "Bush Plots Military Strikes: 60 Countries Targeted" and an article below the fold titled "Apartheid in the Holy Land".

Their website, which is still under construction, is:

www.wartimes.org

Here is another nonviolent, direct action tactic being promoted in that paper: support for peace activists fined for sanctions violations. Activists have been running medicine to Iraq, defying government sanctions. Pledge funds here:

www.scn.org/ccpi/declaration2002.html

Or support the Iraq Peace Team, sponsored by Voices in the Wilderness. They have led 43 sanctions busting delegations to Iraq:

www.iraqpeaceteam.org


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: artbrooks
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 07:48 PM

Four-year-old information, as allegedly reported by a newspaper with a nonexistant website, is useful only from a historical perspective. The current UN position on sanctions, as supported by the US, is here. Or perhaps this is the place ANON.GUEST meant to send us?


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 07:59 PM

GUEST: You can post a thousand sites for us to read but it is apparent that you weren't there, my friend. I was. I was a reporter for the Richmond Chronicle, Richmond's underground newspaper and covered and participated in lots of anti-war demonstartions both in Richmond and D.C. Yeah, they were loud and we were in the street and we were confrontational and sometimes we had got hurt. That's okay.

The fringe anti-war folks did *nothing* but setback our efforts so when you say it was the anarchists and Yippies that brought an end to the war you are revising history. The Moritorium was the single biggest and most powerful day in the history of the Vietnam Anti-war movement and the reason for this is because it was inclusive and scared the Hell out of the Establishment. Yaeh, when they saw mother and fathers pushing strollers and old people they knew that our side had won. You weren't there or you would have known that, GUEST. Yeah, I spent a good part of the 60's talking with my parents about the war and both marched. And my dad was a Nixon Republican.

So, get real. You're beliefs are not founded on fact but more fixtion. Yeah, sure, you can continue to put up on site after another of folks who either weren't there or have for their own reasons unbeknownst to anyone, will jump up and down sayin' that the fringe radicals deserve the credit. That is pure bull.

So if you're and your cohorts are gonna plan on blemishin' a non-violent movement against the military industrial complex that involves creativity, confrontation and civil disobedience when required but does not give the other side a media victory for crushing the movement, then you'll have to live with yourself if you and your buddies become the puppets of Tom Rich and John Ashcroft.

Anarchy is not the answer, my friend.

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 08:06 PM

Thanks for the working link to War Times art, it was the one I was meaning to direct you to.

As to the crack about "4 year old information" art, I guess you don't know much about the difficulties of compiling statistics in war zones, and behind the curtains of sanctions, but I think you are being very arrogant about it. Want more sources? Try here:

http://www.salam.org/iraq/stats.html

Or here is a very long address to an article on sanctions at the International Red Cross website:

http://www.icrc.org/icrceng.nsf/5cacfdf48ca698b641256242003b3295/040171e49481b741412568a20030ca99?OpenDocument

BTW art, the page you linked to is simply a copy of the 2002 UN resolution on sanctions. It provides no information on the current health statistics information gathered by reputable sources like IRC, WHO, or the UN.

Here is a link to a CNN article from 1999 claiming "The United Nations estimates 1 million Iraqis, mostly children, have died under the sanctions.":

http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/meast/9908/06/iraq.sanctions/#1

But have it your way artbrooks--you know the head in the sand "you can't scare me with the UN statistics, I'm sticking with my empire til the day I die" way.

Any way you look at, the UN sanctions against Iraq, enforced and kept in place by the US, are criminal. Criminal artbrooks. Criminal.


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: artbrooks
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 08:15 PM

I abase myself. I have once more fed a troll.


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: NicoleC
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 09:20 PM

Harpgirl: I wish you much luck. It's a failing of the progressive movement that we can't shake the undeserved label of not caring about our servicemen and women. My own brother can't get his head around the idea that I might actually care about their lives and deaths. Work like yours, especially with your background, might help show there's a big difference between being upset at military action and caring about fellow citizens that are willing to serve their country in the military.

A former co-worker (who thought listening Rush Limbaugh was getting unbiased news) insisted loudly (and irrationally, IMHO) that the solution was to nuke the entire middle-east. When I pointed out that she would not longer have gas to drive either of her enormous 8 mpg SUVs if we destroyed that much oil, she declared that the US Army should invade and take over the whole region. Wouldn't we need a bigger army since lots of our current army would die, I asked? Well, she said, re-instate the draft. Isn't your son 17 years old and just about ready to sign up with Selective Service?

Oh, she said, I'd send MY son to Canada.

*sigh* And it's the conservatives that care about military personnel?

Art: The US government does not deny that the Iraq sanctions are responsible for massive civilian casualties. Nor can we blame this one on Bush; it sparked Albright's infamous quote about the staggering number of deaths of Iraqi children being "worth it." The #1 contender for the cause of deaths is that chlorine is on the no-no list as a potentially dangerous chemical, which means no water sanitation. Sadly, the sanctions haven't done a thing to hurt Saddam, and instead have fostered a huge swell of anti-western sentiment that plays right into Saddam's hands and created a whole new generation of angry young men.

Guest: I may disagree with Doug about 98%, but I'd rather talk politics with him than an arm-chair neo-liberal hippie, simply because he is civil.

Bobert: If I had known there were folks like you in Richmond, I may not have fled the place quite so quickly after high school :)


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 10:14 PM

Thanks, NicoleCastle. And just like 35 years ago this isn't about the anit-war folk against those under uniform. Hey, I lost 8 of my friends in Viet Nam and had two come home with badly wounded. My cousin lost his leg to a lnad mine. These folks were our brothers and sisters. They din't make the decsiions. They just happened to be in the wrong place at the right time. I remenber in '68 amd '69, we had organized a joint called the Center for the Perorming Arts and had rock groups playing every Friday and Saturday night and we'd get some uniformed brothers up from Ft. Lee. Well, we were a danged happy to have them as they were to be there.

Yeah, this thing ain't about our brothers and sisters in uniform who I consider to be part of "us". It's about the Masters of War, who collectively can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag yet go out pickin 'em...

Some things never change...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: artbrooks
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 10:41 PM

I'm not sure, Nicole. The most recent information on the WHO website is December 2000; it says, or implies strongly, that its either an infrastructure or government willingness issue. The part of Iraq in which a UN agency distributes food and other supplies to children was apparently doing well (defined as almost back up to pre-Gulf War levels) but malnutrition and other health issues had hardly improved at all in those rural areas where the Iraqi government had retained responsibility...there were no observed problems in major cities. Perhaps the basic problem is that there aren't enough trucks to get food and medicine where its needed. I've read, and I think it was at CNN.com but I wouldn't swear to it, that the Iraqi government has refused to request import permits as a matter of principal. Seems far fetched, but many things are possible.

I'd appreciate the opportunity to see the reference for the chlorine statistic.


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: DougR
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 11:27 PM

Hey, NicoleCastle, right on! Bobert has learned that not all conservatives have horns and a long forked tail, and I must admit, although I don't agree with him, he is growing on me.

Liberals like Tro...er..sorry, GUEST isn't a true liberal. Liberals respect the views of others, right? They may not agree with them, but they respect them. Am I wrong here, Bobert?

Art: GUEST isn't a Troll! Dammit, he said he wasn't! :>)

DougR


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 11:34 PM

You are right Bobert. This thread, just like this fight to prevent a widening unilateral US war on the Middle East, isn't about anti-war folk vs. the military. It is about armchair liberals like you vs more radical activists like myself, right? You come in here claiming you know everything there is to know about passive *and* aggressive resistance to the war machine. You claim your way of resisting is not only morally superior to all others, but the one and only right way of preventing the war from widening. Nonviolent direct action to confront the war machine is what Bobert--aiding and abetting the enemy? I don't think so. And if you don't mind, I'll side with the ANC and the Sandinistas and the War Resisters' League and other radical pacifists of that ilk than somebody shooting off their mouth in an internet forum about folk music.

What you are doing Bobert, IMO, is claiming that you have some privleged, authoritative position regarding peace activism, when you don't. Your tactics of denoucing people who have a tremendous amount of legitimacy and respect within the peace movement, both here in the US as well as internationally, just shows who's side you are really on--the status quo's side. The safe, middle class way of not rocking your own boat, damn the consequences for the rest of the world.

If all we as Americans are about is polite conversation and hand wringing and "ain't it awful" posts in internet chat groups, why bother? Sure, I could be sweet as honey, but all that gets is agreement. Is that what we need here? More agreement? Nobody rocking our worlds? At least I shake people out of their complacency, which is a whole lot more than what the rest of you are doing here in the forum, shooting off your mouths as if you were advisors to Kofi Annan.

Civil discourse, in a country blessed by one hundred fifty years of peace, is something you all are taking much too much for granted. Would that people living in the war zones watching their children die of diseases that are wholly preventable and curable, or having their wedding bombed by "accident" had such a bloody luxury.

And I know why you prefer talking to Doug, Nicole. For the same reason why all of you would prefer to just chat among yourselves and cluck your tongues about how awful that bad man Bush is. Polite people make you feel safe, regardless of their values.

Sorry, but I don't play that game. Nor do I play the bullshit divide and conquer games that Bobert is engaging in. He is much more busy denouncing people busting Nordstrom's windows, than he is denouncing the violence our country is perpetrating on Afghanistan, Palestine, and Iraq. Why? Well, those people can't touch us. They can do us no harm. But the opinions of our peers here is comfy, cozy, safe America can cause us all kinds of dangers, can't they Bobert? Why, people lose their jobs, their homes, and their freedom for daring to speak out and resist the US war machine. I'm sure none of you here are willing to shake up your sacred status quo lives by actually getting out of your armchairs and getting to work on the anti-war campaign than you are willing to rock the Mudcat boat. You aren't willing to upset your fellow Americans--who might just turn you in to the Justice Department, after all. That would be much too dangerous. Just like I am.


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 11:39 PM

Dougie: I love you but you're nutty as a fruitcake. What the heck do I know about "liberals"? I ain't one. Those folks make me sick 'cause thay go and vote for Al Gore, rather than "mah main man". Heck, I'm jus funnin' with ya a tad here... But pleeeeze don't put that "liberal" label on me, though I'd take a liberal over someone in the other camp any day of the week... Not as much work.... But if I gotta disagree with someone on this thread, I'll take you over, ahhhhh, what's its name.... Yeah, what is its name?...?...?....

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 11:45 PM

Change the names in the above post and GUEST is talking about herself. Amazing that she can come in and accuse but doesn't like it when others don't take her word for gospel. Trolling has garnered another thread of almost 100 posts...and still some of you answer in some vain hope of changing her mind/bullying tactics.


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 12:01 AM

What are you gonna do this weekend, GUEST, to make the planet more civil, more in tune with the Third World, a better place for you kids to live???????????????????//

Well, for you, my blowhard friend, I'm gonna drag my ass off to the Mountain Stage songwriter's competition and do a song (with sermon...) denouncing the death penalty in this country....

I'm gettin real bored with your tirades, GUEST. You're so tough. What the Hell are you doing for mankind this weekend?????

Activist????? Bull??????? You're nothin' more than a highway surfer....

Get off your high horse long enough to DO something that you can talk about other than throwing your bnowling ball thru the window of some gov't agency....

Hey, Doug makes more sense than you....

And he's willin to put a name with his ideas....

Which you're not...

Who's throwin' the crap, GUEST???????

Get real!!!!!

Quit lieing to yourself.....

Gettin' a little old here.....

And don't call me no liberal....

Peace thru intellegence and purserverance...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 12:06 AM

Yah sure kat--the subject matter of the thread is bloody inconsequential, isn't it? As usual, you'd rather believe it is all about my choice to be anonymous instead.

I'm not saying you have to take my word as gospel. I'm saying, if you are going to try and refute me, give me some comparable facts from legitimate sources. That is what open and honest debate is about. An clash of ideas, well thought out and presented. I just think too many people contributing to this thread are shooting from the hip about things they have no knowledge of, and saying so. If that disturbs people, and gets them to react and think about this stuff, then I've done my job. I don't expect anyone to like the way it makes them feel. I'm doing my damndest to make you feel uncomfortable. Because as long as you feel safe and warm and fuzzy and secure, you won't do anything.

But if you need a handle for my anonymity--hey, agitation is my middle name. :)


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: Big Mick
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 12:07 AM

Thanks, kat, you just beat me to the punch by about 5 minutes. GUEST.......you waste people's time here. We understand that you are desperate for attention. We shouldn't have given you all this attention now. You have no credibility and one needs only read this thread to see why. But we did fulfill at least one need of yours. We gave you attention. Now I am sure you will go home mumbling to yourself about how unjust it is and they just don't know how committed you are. After all .............."didn't I look up all the sites???????".

I really didn't want to be nasty, but you apparently seek that for validation.........so.........

Mick


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: NicoleC
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 12:20 AM

Art,

Somehow I remember pratically every tidbit I read, but I can hardly remember where :) So I went internet searching. There's a lot of info about malnutrition in Iraq, but little recently about causes of death. It's hard to get updated statistics out of a country who's infrastructure is mostly destroyed.

The most recent and unbiased figures I could find were from the 1998 UNICEF report "Impact of the Sanctions on the People of Iraq." Page 42 notes that they feel the actual death rate is much higher than reported and "The increase in mortality reported in public hospitals for children under five years of age (an excess of some 40,000 deaths yearly compared with 1989) is mainly due to diarrhea, pneumonia and malnutrition. In those over five years of age, the increase (an excess of some 50,000 deaths yearly compared 1989) is associated with heart disease, hypertension, diabetes, cancer, liver or kidney diseases . . . With the substantial increase in mortality, under-registration of deaths is a growing problem." Elsewhere it notes that prior to the sanctions, 92% of the population had access to safe water.

Not the precise info I was looking for, however page 32 also notes that "Water treatment plants lack spare parts, equipment, treatment chemicals, proper maintenance and adequate qualified staff. ... Plants often act solely as pumping stations without any treatment... The distribution network, on which most of the population relies, has destroyed, blocked or leaky pipes."

An interesting article on post-sanction healthcare and death rates is here: http://www.iacenter.org/rc12600.htm It quotes many statistics, but does not specify sources.


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 12:21 AM

It ain't about me, Big Mick. Its about you. What you gonna do to stop this war from going one inch further?

You can try and reassure yourselves all you want that I want attention, or I am just a troll, or whatever you need to tell yourselves to keep the words I'm saying from sinking into your consciences. I'm here to trouble your waters, folks. I'm here to admonish you to wade in the water. You can keep trying to deny, deflect, denounce, and demonize me, but at some level, you all know what this thread is about. It is about the war hovering on the horizon.

Isn't a full scale US war on the Middle East worth discussing? Shouldn't such a subject generate some heated discussion, late into the night? Shouldn't that subject be worthy of generating threads of over a hundred posts?

Damn right I'm tirading. I fear we'll be sending Xmas packages to 250,000 military personnel in Iraq this year. If I can wake some people up who might do something about that, then I'm gonna do it, right here, right now. I'm going to proselytize, right here, right now.


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: NicoleC
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 12:36 AM

You're right, GUEST. I do like polite people. I like talking to people that can rationally disagree with me, because it means I have to improve my own arguments or, occassionally, they just might have a good point.

If you think being rude and confrontational wins anyone over to your point of view, you might ask yourself when the last time was you changed your mind just because someone waved their arms in your face and called you stupid.

Preach all you want -- but alienating people doesn't achieve anything except convince them left-wingers are crazy.


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: Big Mick
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 12:53 AM

You fancy yourself a pro, but you really are quite amateurish. That feeble attempt to somehow make it seem that you are agitating to cause us to leap out just shows, once more, how deluded you are. The simple fact is that in this thread, like the Memorial Day thread, you presume to tell us all about what we don't know. And when facts are presented to you that don't support your neat little academic "there I have it all figured out" attitude, you just ignore them and march on with your rant and citations. You are exposed, and you don't see it. It's called blinders.

You want facts? Let us review. Your activism is all in your mind. I am sure you attend the odd rally, but you do nothing to effect change. My guess is that you spout the yak, and go home never risking anything. Bobert cited his background and you responded with a bunch of websites and vitriol about HIS attitude. I have challenged you time and again about what it is that you have done to "get your hands dirty" and your responses are more websites, some research on backgrounds, and more vitriol. In another thread you quickly spouted off about those in your family who served and were killed or wounded back as far as WW1. IF that is true, then I honor your family's sacrifice. Your response was that you wouldn't honor anyones loss because it glorified war. And once again folks tried to point out that it is the attitude, that there are things we have in common. Your response..........vitriol. You desire the abuse so you can sit smug and tell everyone "There". Trouble is, you are the only one listening.

You are a fraud in my book, and I won't respond anymore.

Now............I want to hear more from Nicole and Doug.....says Mick, the old lefty, licking his chops. These are people I enjoy debating with...........LOL


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: harpgirl
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 01:00 AM

Guest, if you were a better communicator, the focus of this thread would be the possibility of war as I intended it to be, and not your behavior! Goodnight, and kat and Mick, it is really not worth figuring out, I think. hg


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 01:13 AM

We are crazy, Nicole. Crazy enough to tirade in the faces of people who stand by and do nothing about the coming war.

So, does that make me as crazy as the men driving the war train? You decide. Me, I'll risk alienating people, because even though my ranting (and let's not exaggerate what I'm actually doing here--this is the internet, I'm not actually up in anyone's face screaming) throws them off balance initially, it at least gets people talking and thinking about the issues.

You, for instance, went out on the internet looking for more health statistics on Iraq in the post-sanction years, didn't you? So you could discuss it with artbrooks? And there are some people actually going to the websites I'm giving links to, and they can read at their leisure about some of the issues I've raised.

Bobert, for instance, says he went and read a few of the sites I posted, and even joined some organizations as a result of his reading.

I'd say that is pretty good for "inciting" and "trolling" in three days time.

So, if you want to believe what I'm doing is wholly ineffective, that is your prerogative, of course. But I do see it differently. I see people leaping out to challenge me, sadly, rather than the ideas I'm here to defend. But even despite their attempts to make me the subject of the thread, instead of the war, I've managed to provoke enough of you to go a little further than you would have had you all just had a nice, friendly thread where everyone agreed to agree or agreed to disagree, and keep things safe and polite.


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 01:47 AM

Poor Harpieego-bruised and esteem-wilted retreats to the corner to pout.

Good night, sleep tight,
don't let the beg-bugs bite.
And if they do, bite them in two
A piece for me and piece for you.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 01:54 AM

Lovely little poem there Gargoyle. I'm sorry too harpgirl. But whether you all claim to like it or not, this thread is now over 100, and the only other one still floating about in the forum, ever so polite and rational and safe, is sinking lower and lower, with around 30 or so posts. If all of you are so morally and ethically opposed to my tactics here, why keep posting to this thread and debating with me?

Hmmmm?


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: Kaleea
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 03:23 AM

War? Is there a war? Why didn't somebody tell me? I guess I was too busy playing music. "An eye for an eye, and another eye for another eye until ALL ARE BLIND AND CANNOT SEE." . . . "All we are saying is give peace a chance. All we are saying is give peace a chance. All we are saying is give peace a chance. all we are saying is give peace a chance. All we are saying is give peace a chance. All we are saying is . . ."


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: harpgirl
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 07:42 AM

Good morning garg. Ah come on, now. You know me better than that. This chick (or maybe a clever male) hasn't affected my esteem at all. I haven't directly engaged with her because I smelled psychopath a long time ago! I respect the dangers of dealing with psychopaths! I have years of experience!

loved your poem....now off to the trenches, fighting the evils of mental illness!! tra la! harpie


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 08:55 AM

GUEST: Works for me. Yep, you just keep your righteos self right there in front of your pudder. Heck, I don't want no one shot because some fool in the crowd thought it would be a hoot to throw a bowling ball thru a window. So, my friend, you and your bowling ball can sit right there where I'm safe, thank you...

Peace

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: Big Mick
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 09:28 AM

There ya go, save face by claiming some sort of victory. But while you are patting yourself on the back, remember. I called that you would do this. When your tactics failed, I knew that you would claim this. You are so easy and so predictable.

Instead of all this, why not take some time to go out and put yourself on the line where it counts?

Mick


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 09:41 AM

Ahem...Mickdarlin'...over at the Temple of the Oracle, whilst getting ready for the long-dormant Fertility Rites, like Cassandra I called it way back at the beginning and got grief...let your fingers do the walking and then disparage others...how predicatable and childish...ah, well, such is the lot of a far-see-er...**BG**


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Subject: ADD: Talking Unamerican Blues^^^
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 10:33 AM

That is a mighty fine list of "last word" posts. Here is mine...

TALKIN' UNAMERICAN BLUES
Lyrics as recorded by BETTY SANDERS, vocal, with JERRY SILVERMAN, g, Hootenanny Records (Hoot 103-B), c. 9 Jun 1952 (re-released on Folkways FN-2513)
reprinted in RONALD D. COHEN & DAVE SAMUELSON, Songs For Political Action (accompanying book), Bear Family Records, 1996, p. 201

Early one morning got an invitation
To help Congress out in an investigation;
Man came around a-knocking at my door,
Give me a paper that said what for.
Subpoena, looking for Un-Americans;
Look in the mirror.

Now if you want an invite, here' s what to do,
You got to talk with peace, sing it too;
Visit your neighbors, hear what they say,
Before you know it, you're on your way.
Fare paid! Ride in style. First class!

Well, you brush your hair and you dress real pretty,
You got a date with the Un-American Committee;
Take the stand, they swear you in,
Old Man Wood is wearing a grin.
He thinks he's got you, got a short memory.
Can't recall what happened when they stuck a
Union label on his cantankerous investigation.

"Are you now, or have ever been,
Were you ever sympathetic or interested in...
When did you start, how long did it last,
Tell us all about your interesting past.
Answer yes or no."

"Did you go to a meeting, did you sign a petition,
Did you ever hold an executive position?
Did you make a speech, carry a card,
Did you ever hold a conference in your back yard?"
Fifth Amendment!

Now they were asking questions, but we wouldn't buy it,
Like those union brothers did it, it was time for us to try it;
Added up the facts and the figures historical,
Asked them a question which sounds a bit rhetorical.
Mister Wood -- Are you now or have you ever been a bastard?
You don't have to answer that question if you think
It might tend to incriminate you.

Now Mister Wood, get out of your rut,
Do you swear to tell the truth and nothin' but?
Well, Wood said he would, but we knew he wouldn't
And even if he would, well he damn well couldn't,
But that's Congress for you,
Week in, week out, weak all over.

Now Wood couldn't rest on his laurels,
He tried his best to corrupt our morals;
He talked about Philbrick, Budenz too,
"They're getting theirs, how about you?"

Now I like chicken, I like duck
And I don't object to making a buck.
But I ain't got wings and sure can't fly,
But there's one bird that I won't buy:
That's Stoolpigeon! I'm strictly in the market for doves of peace!

It is known that birds of a feather
Have a habit of flockin' together.
So listen, McCarran, Wood and the rest,
You can't use us to feather your nest.
That's strictly for birds!

So here's the moral without a doubt,
If you want to be free, you've got to sing out.
Sing it loud, sing it strong,
People are singing a freedom song!
That's my music! Solid with a freedom beat!
So keep singing, and keep fighting!

^^^ (click)

breaks fixed by JoeClone


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 10:46 AM

A cute political cartoon from the New York Post

http://www.nypost.com/delonas/2002/08/08042002.jpg

link fixed by JoeClone


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: harpgirl
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 11:33 AM

That's a very fine prosocial response GUEST. The song is brill and I liked the cartoon. I thought that myself when I read Billy would go to war. And I still like him but I like Jimmy Carter better! BTW, do you know MS Rubin in San Francisco?


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 01:15 PM

Actually, I posted the song, but it is a different guest who posted the cartoon harpgirl.

Thanks for fixing the line breaks JC!


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST,Ewan McVicar
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 04:18 PM

Fascinating reading.
Never met so many people who were righteously right about so much in all my born days.
I still cannot understand why people so sure of themselves do not give their right names, though. I'm proud of mine, and I'm not sure of very much.


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: DougR
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 08:03 PM

Great cartoon!

Bobert: Did I call you a liberal? Sorrrrreeeeee! :>) Glad you folks finally got the nameless one's number.

DougR


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 09:17 PM

And I'm soorrreee, too, there big guy. Come on over and get a big ol' bobert hug....

Danged, Doug. Guest was like a bad case of _________, as far as I can see. I'd rather wrestler with you ani day of the week. At least with you, I know who I'm wresling with and you ain't like mercury, slipping and sliding to one side or the other. Yep, my friend, you're always in the same place.

Whew! The guy about wored my bony butt outm, Dougie...

And I'm sure that poor ol' Big Mick, as well as others, is a tad wored out hisself, da boot.

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 10:39 PM

Ya' know, I've been busy on the home front and not on the 'Cat much lately and when I read this crap I have no regrets. An anonymous troll wants credentials...............Christallmighty, gimmee a fuckin' break.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 11:09 PM

Amen to that, Spawdarlin'...made me long for the old days when we had real debates...on guns, vietnam, orange order, diversity...they were heated but damn it they were principled and people put their own names to them; when only the occassional post was from some anon-e-mouse wanker instead of every other.

kat


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: DougR
Date: 08 Aug 02 - 02:35 AM

Hmmm. Maybe we should figure out how to handle trolls!

DougR


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 08 Aug 02 - 03:29 AM

Guest I concur, you are now the victum.

It is desperation when they must dash to the dastardly ploy of attacking the speaker. I believe it is known as:

Fallacies of Presumption

Ignoratio Elenchi (Irrelevant Conclusion)

Argumentum ad Hominem (Attack of the Person)

Seeking soltice they have ignored the facts and returned an emotional rebuttal. This is known as an "If you can't win, insult them directly" argument. The end result is that your attackers are now mad at each other, with the level of emotional diatribe escalating at each of their faltering footfalls.

This has been joyous show!

Thank You,
Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
From: GUEST,Ewan McVicar
Date: 08 Aug 02 - 04:49 AM

Ah, I see. For some of the protagonists at least it's just about having fun. And here was me thinking you were serious. [The thread title misled me.] I forgot, debates are a way of passing the time when there is nothing worthwhile you feeling like doing, and scoring a few points to your own satisfaction in the process, ending with feeling cleverer than the other person. Oh, well, back to work.


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