TV sport vs live music in pubs. HELP

Subject: TV sport vs live music in pubs. HELP
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Aug 02 - 07:45 AM

I have asked my local police if they have statistics to support the statement made by Dr Howells. Given their reply (following), can I please ask that you do the same?


Alcohol and Entertainment Licensing Bill

1. Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Morden): If she will make a statement on her policy towards the licensing of televising of sport in public houses under the terms of the proposed Alcohol and Entertainment Licensing Bill. [68956]
The Minister for Tourism, Film and Broadcasting (Dr. Kim Howells): As is the case with existing legislation, the proposed Alcohol and Entertainment Licensing Bill will not include the licensing of the televising of sport in public houses in its definition of public entertainment. A publican, of course, already requires and will continue to require a normal domestic television licence.
Siobhain McDonagh: I thank my hon. Friend for his answer. However, given the licensing disparity between televised football and live music in pubs—the former is subject to no regulation but the latter is subject to a complicated regulation mechanism—will he encourage members of the Cabinet to look at introducing legislation in the Queen's Speech that will reform the public entertainment licence system and encourage live music and particularly young musicians in small venues?

Dr. Howells: We will certainly look at getting rid of the absurd two in a bar rule. I have looked long and hard at the evidence, but we have never received any to suggest that watching television in a pub causes the kinds of scenes that have sometimes occurred in pubs with live music. Nor, indeed, have we had any reports of disturbances caused by watching television in a pub—we have certainly received some reports of incidents following the playing of live music in pubs. Generally speaking, however, pubs are excellent venues for live music. We want to make sure that that continues to be the case and that there are more venues for live music, not fewer.

Letter to the Dorset Police. 05/08/02.
I do not of course expect you to be drawn in to a political argument. But given your comment about not being able to say that there had been no complaints locally, and bearing in mind of course that this is a fairly recent introduction to the activities of licensed premises. Is it your view and can it be statistically demonstrated, that all LIVE music making and only LIVE music making, has presented instances of significant problems and incidents, that has not been presented by those attracted to, and associated with, the advertised showing of live TV sport in public houses?

Their reply 08/08/02
Firstly it is my opinion that many times when officers are called to deal with 'incidents' at or around liquor licensed premises, those officers are concerned with ensuring that any breaches of public order or reports of other nuisance are contain, controlled and ultimately dissipated. This they may quite often not actually determine the cause of any problem. However with noise nuisance complaints the cause is more obvious.

I cannot give any statistical information to indicate details in relation to the matter subject of your question as we do not keep such information.

But my second comment would be that I am not aware of any occasion when we have dealt with significant problems related to the watching of live TV sports programmes, whereas there have been occasions when we have dealt with incidents relative to the playing of live music. I would add that for reasons of confidentiality I could not give you examples of premises in involved.

So there are no statistics and there is no evidence available from my local police to the Government, even to establish if the 'incidents' the police refer to here were in fact to LIVE music and not to noise from pre-recorded sound or to noise outside the premises!

But the facts (or lack of them) will not prevent the same old opinions from being expressed in the highest places, by Dr Howells and apparently being supported by the local police. The great danger is that many people will trust and be swayed by these unsupported opinions and believe they are fact................Can I ask that you ask your local police and post the reply here?
Roger

Subject: RE: TV sport vs live music in pubs. HELP
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Aug 02 - 10:12 AM

See also Action for Music

Subject: RE: TV sport vs live music in pubs. HELP
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Aug 02 - 02:46 PM

The following is an interesting quote from Val Weedon of the UK Noise Association.

"It's rare that we receive complaints about live music in pubs and bars. In fact, it's fair to say that more complaints arrive about the noise levels of amplified pre-recorded music" [Billy Bragg leads lament for grassroots music, Dalya Alberge and Richard Ford, 25 July 2002]

This does seem to somewhat contradict the Government and the police view but has not changed it.

I may have missed it but I do not remember hordes of drunken folkies spilling out of live music bars in European cities and proceeding to take them apart.

I do seem to remember a rather large disturbance in France where crowds viewing large screen TV football, went on a riot. That could well have been due to the official English supporters brass band, who were there playing live music?

Subject: RE: TV sport vs live music in pubs. HELP
From: GUEST,andymac
Date: 11 Aug 02 - 04:36 PM

I too have seen the violence and disturbance that can follow screening of TV sport, particularly football. However, there is a distinction to be made between screening of events where all the audience supports one side only, eg Scotland or England vs A N Other and between events where the "audience" is split, eg Celtic vs Rangers. In the same way a distinction can and should be made between rowdy "Irish" nights, often an excuse for drunkeness and nights wehere there are either sessions in a pub or an artist doing a pub gig. To my mind for people who are not involved in or have no real contact with live music (not necessarily just folk music) don't make the above distinction and we all suffer from ignorance as a result.

Subject: RE: TV sport vs live music in pubs. HELP
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 10:07 AM

Dear Roger
I am the Licensing Officer for the Morecambe Geographic Police Area.

I have been asked to contact you in response to an enquiry by .... ..... regarding PEL's and I write to confirm what has been said.

Incidents reported to the police are recorded on a computerised logging system, which can later be interrogated to ascertain patterns, problem places, times etc.

There is a category for recording 'Disturbance in Licensed Premises' which is concerned with the recording of incidents WITHIN the premises. trouble on the street is recorded in another category.

There are also venues in Morecambe that are licensed AND provide live entertainment.

I have looked at the figures for disorder in the above category and there is nothing to indicate any connection between watching TV and trouble. This was best found during the recent World Cup. You will recall that Licensing Magistrates granted Special Orders of Exemption that allowed licensed premises to open as early as 6am.

In the Morecambe Policing Area there were no reported incidents of disorder. As far as disorder on the street, it would be very difficult to prove any connection between the two without being able to question those involved.

Morecambe has also staged live music events at some of its venues and again, there are no reports of disorder.

Clearly, other areas of the county and country will have different experiences. We are fortunate in that the local football team does not play in the upper leagues whereby teams with a known 'thuggish' following visit.

I can only suggest that you contact others involved in Licensing in such areas to get a view from their side.

If you have any other questions or comments, please do not hesitate to contact me on the below number.

Regards
Bill Elder
Morecambe Licensing
ext. [phone]

Subject: RE: TV sport vs live music in pubs. HELP
From: GUEST,pavane
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 12:50 PM

The only 'rowdy Irish night' I have seen was at a gig earlier this year, when my wife had to sing to a crowd of Irish tinkers who had been drinking since 11 am.

(There is a council-run gypsy site in the area)

Apparently, the police don't like to get involved with them because they are big blokes and fond of a fight, so it is difficult to get rid of them from the pub. Naturally, that won't appear on anyone's statistics (luckily, I suppose, for our case)

Likewise, when they poured into two Transit vans to go home at about midnight, there was no-one hovering with a breath test.

It is so much easier to terrorise the law-abiding citizens!

There have been several thefts in the area lately, and vehicles from the travellers' site were seen to be involved, but I don't hold out much hope of my friend getting his horse-box back, even though the police have the numberplate of the car involved.