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Hoolian???????

DigiTrad:
GOODBYE, OLD PAINT
I RIDE AN OLD PAINT


Related threads:
(origins) Origins: I Ride An Old Paint (99)
I ride an old paint - houlighan? fiery & snuffy? (35)
Old Paint: What's a hoolian? (60)
old paint and goodbye old paint lyrics (3)
Lyr Req: Goodbye Old Paint (6)
Song Title please ?-I Ride an Old Paint (21)
(origins) Help: houlihan? - Old Paint (77)
Lyr Req: Riding Old Paint and Leading Old Ball (22)
Lyr Add: Rebel Soldier (cf. Old Paint) (17)


Brack& 15 May 98 - 08:34 PM
Fenian Blade 15 May 98 - 09:27 PM
Barry Finn 15 May 98 - 10:23 PM
Brack& 15 May 98 - 10:25 PM
Barry Finn 15 May 98 - 10:36 PM
dick greenhaus 16 May 98 - 08:49 PM
Richard Wright 18 May 98 - 08:34 PM
Alice 18 May 98 - 08:44 PM
Richard Wright 18 May 98 - 09:02 PM
Richard Wright 18 May 98 - 09:09 PM
dick greenhaus 18 May 98 - 09:29 PM
Barry Finn 02 Nov 98 - 11:07 AM
Ralph 02 Nov 98 - 11:31 AM
Art Thieme 02 Nov 98 - 11:34 AM
02 Nov 98 - 05:18 PM
Liam's Brother 02 Nov 98 - 09:49 PM
03 Nov 98 - 01:05 AM
Jon Bartlett 03 Nov 98 - 04:14 AM
Barry Finn 22 Nov 99 - 08:39 PM
Lyle 22 Nov 99 - 10:33 PM
DougR 23 Nov 99 - 02:11 AM
_gargoyle 23 Nov 99 - 12:32 PM
_gargoyle 23 Nov 99 - 01:13 PM
23 Nov 99 - 04:28 PM
ernest 23 Nov 99 - 06:44 PM
DougR 24 Nov 99 - 12:29 PM
d.west 24 Nov 99 - 10:46 PM
Allan C. 13 Feb 05 - 12:03 PM
Brakn 13 Feb 05 - 12:21 PM
Barry Finn 28 Jul 06 - 03:58 AM
Paul from Hull 28 Jul 06 - 07:08 AM
GUEST 15 Jul 15 - 04:35 AM
Brakn 15 Jul 15 - 07:20 PM
Thompson 16 Jul 15 - 06:32 AM
GUEST,# 16 Jul 15 - 06:55 AM
GUEST,# 16 Jul 15 - 07:00 AM
GUEST,# 16 Jul 15 - 09:32 AM
Thompson 16 Jul 15 - 09:54 AM
GUEST,# 16 Jul 15 - 01:04 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Nov 16 - 09:03 AM
leeneia 22 Nov 16 - 10:05 AM
GUEST 22 Nov 16 - 11:35 AM
leeneia 23 Nov 16 - 10:09 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Nov 16 - 11:14 AM
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Subject: Hoolian???????
From: Brack&
Date: 15 May 98 - 08:34 PM

In the song 'Old Paint' one of the lines is

"I'm going to Montana to throw the hoolian"

Anyone know what it means? It's been puzzling me for years!


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Subject: RE: Hoolian???????
From: Fenian Blade
Date: 15 May 98 - 09:27 PM

A "hooley" is a party, in Dublin slang. And you would say "I'm going to throw a hooley." .....meaning "I'm going to throw a party." an' = and (???) Could be totally wrong of course!!! Ah-hem!


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Subject: RE: Hoolian???????
From: Barry Finn
Date: 15 May 98 - 10:23 PM

Had an old copy of Goodbye Old Paint as sung by Sloan Mathews, (also playing a lone fiddle-that's by himself-all alone) in the notes (don't know where they came from) I have "Hoolian" a form of bulldogging, where the snout of the calf or steer is seized & pressed, forcing the head to the ground & thus throwing it, rather than twisting it's head in the common practice of todays rodeos.

Dogies; "an orphan calf, whose mammy had died & whose daddy had run off with another cow, sick & feeble, their young bellies would swell from to early a diet of grass & be left with a gut full of dough (the short definition, a young or small yearling). Barry


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Subject: RE: Hoolian???????
From: Brack&
Date: 15 May 98 - 10:25 PM

That sounds good Barry. Thanks.


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Subject: RE: Hoolian???????
From: Barry Finn
Date: 15 May 98 - 10:36 PM

Not real sure what it means though, never having rassled a steer myself, I'm a greenhorn virgin from the east & the closest I get to em is when they're cooked & on my plate. While looking for this, I read where the Texas Longhorn was quite the light sleeper & very easy to spook, while walking or riding night heard, the sound of a breaking branch could set off a stampede, but if the cowhand was singing softly, the steer may stir from a noise but the soft pleasant singing would cover up the harsh sounds & the animal would drop back off to sleep, made me think of my family of light sleepers. Barry


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Subject: RE: Hoolian???????
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 16 May 98 - 08:49 PM

My ol' Dad, who spent his post-adolescent years as a cowpoke, always felt that singing at night tended to wake the cattle up, rather than soothe them to sleep. He felt that the main function of night-time singing was to keep the cowboy awake.

By the way, the best known of the night herding songs, appropriately named Night Herding Song, was written by a college professor, not a cowboy. He sent it to John Lomax, who decided it might as well be folk, and printed it in his Cowboy Songs.


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Subject: RE: Hoolian???????
From: Richard Wright
Date: 18 May 98 - 08:34 PM

Hooley-ann is a rope throw, made either from the ground or horseback and would require a long explanation, but it is fast and a head catch.

Hoolihan is the act of leaping forward and knock a steer down =rather than twisting it's neck. It is barred at most rodeo. However, hoolihan is also to throw a party or paint the town read. In the context of Old Paint, it is generally thought to mean going to Montan' and have a party at the end of the trail drive.

Richard Cow-country, B.C.


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Subject: RE: Hoolian???????
From: Alice
Date: 18 May 98 - 08:44 PM

I've always heard the song with the word 'hoolihan'.

alice in montana


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Subject: RE: Hoolian???????
From: Richard Wright
Date: 18 May 98 - 09:02 PM

And the rider is, after all, going to Montana, so I'm with Alice.

Richard


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Subject: RE: Hoolian???????
From: Richard Wright
Date: 18 May 98 - 09:09 PM

Woody used to sing this song, except he said, "their backs are all matted their tails are all raw". I sitll have trouble with that line after years of hearing him. Don't remeber how he pronounced "hoolihan" but perhaps he also confused folks on that part.

Richard


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Subject: RE: Hoolian???????
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 18 May 98 - 09:29 PM

I've always suspected that "backs are all matted, tails are all raw" derived from Woodrow Wilson Guthrie recording it after a bout with Mr. Barleycorn. But what do I know?


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Subject: RE: Hoolian???????
From: Barry Finn
Date: 02 Nov 98 - 11:07 AM

refersh


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Subject: RE: Hoolian???????
From: Ralph
Date: 02 Nov 98 - 11:31 AM

Another line is: With a line on a heffer & a bull by the tail.

To handle bulls they would ride up and grab the bull by the tail, then flip the bull over. (No kidding) Then the line is the lasso on the heffer (cow). So this was one busy dude. The tail thing I got from a book that was a collection of stroies that Frederic Remington sent to the Atlantic Weekely in the 1860-70's.

I read one account where this over enthustic cowpoke broke the tail off of a bull. He caught hell for it.

I have this tune on one of my music books. I'll try and find the referance to it.


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Subject: RE: Hoolian???????
From: Art Thieme
Date: 02 Nov 98 - 11:34 AM

I switched a lyric around the same way, and for the same reason, in the song "Jerry, Go And Oil That Car" on my new CD for Waterbug. But it was in the can and done before I realized it. Leaves me wondering if anybody but me ever noticed it.

Another time I did that I had the "GRAVEYARDS FULL OF OLD BLACK MEN" in Stevie Goodman's song, City of New Orleans. It was a good recording from a concert in all other respects, but, of course, I could never put that on the CD. (The actual line should've been "railyards full of old black men".)

Art


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Subject: RE: Hoolian???????
From:
Date: 02 Nov 98 - 05:18 PM

The Smithsonian LP of COWBOY SONGS
Lists the lyrics as:

I ride an Ol' Paint, I lead an ol' Dan
Meaning the type of horse - not his name
Dan being another name for DUN
A breed of horse

Unlike in COOL WATER by the Sons of the Pioneers
Where DAN could be the horse's name.


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Subject: RE: Hoolian???????
From: Liam's Brother
Date: 02 Nov 98 - 09:49 PM

When Barry Finn mentions above being "a greenhorn virgin from the east & the closest I get to em is when they're cooked & on my plate." He is talking about cattle, by the way, just to put things in perspective. This is a family forum, of course. Barry's life, it should be mentioned, is not without it's dangers, however. He has suffered as much as some cowboys.

If memory serves me well, Harry Jackson sings "hoolian" on the Folkways lp, "The Cowboy: His Ballads and Brag Talk." I have it in storage and haven't listened to it in at least 20 years but, I believe, it's "hoolian."


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Subject: RE: Hoolian???????
From:
Date: 03 Nov 98 - 01:05 AM

I once knew a man that would argue with a fencepost
and then take the wrong road...


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Subject: RE: Hoolian???????
From: Jon Bartlett
Date: 03 Nov 98 - 04:14 AM

Harry Jackson sings "...for to throw the hoolihan" and the "glossary of western terms" in the notes gives: "Hoolihan - after roping an animal, the cowboy's saddle horse stops abruptly causing the roped animal to be thrown to the ground." The best cowboy disk, to my mind. Jon


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Subject: RE: Hoolian???????
From: Barry Finn
Date: 22 Nov 99 - 08:39 PM

Refresh


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Subject: RE: Hoolian???????
From: Lyle
Date: 22 Nov 99 - 10:33 PM

A HOOLIHAN (correct spelling) is a particular backhand looping motion which is a special way to use the lariat to catch horses.

If there are any Quarter Horse shows in your area, go to one, and there will be an award given for the best hoolihan to rope a set number of horses in the least amount of time. That's the best way to see what it looks like. Note that it is not the same as calf roping at a rodeo.

Lyle


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Subject: RE: Hoolian???????
From: DougR
Date: 23 Nov 99 - 02:11 AM

So, does the "fire in the snuffy" refer to the fire used to brand the cattle, or what?

DougR


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Subject: RE: Hoolian???????
From: _gargoyle
Date: 23 Nov 99 - 12:32 PM

From Random House Dictionary of Historical American Slang J.E.Lighter ed., 1997, page 147.

hoolihann. West 1. (among cowboys) (see 1985 quot.). 1910 in Lomax and Lomax Amer. Ballads 384: I am a-riding old Paint, I am a-leading old Dan,/I'm goin' to Montan' for to throw the hoolihan. 1985 H. Cannon Cowboy Poetry138: Hoolihan backhand thrown loop for roping horses.

2. an exciting or extraordinary event. 1973 F. Carter Outlaw Wales 182; Seen him take on five pistoleros. He got three of 'em before they cut him down....It was a real hoolihan.

throw the hoolihan [fr. sense of (1), (among cownboys) to celebrate riotously. 1944 R. Adams Western Words:Houlihan, throw the.... to paint the town red.

hoolihan v. [perh. obscurely fr. Houlihan, Irish family name] West. to bulldog (a steer) by bringing it to the ground without twisting its neck.
1925 W.James Drifting Cowboy 105; I hoolyhanned him on the jump and busted him right there. 1933 J.V.Allen Cowboy Lore 12:Hoolihaning is the act of leaping forward and alighting on the horns of a steer in bull-dogging in a manner to knock the steer down without....twisting the animal down with a wrestling hold. Hoolihaning is banned at practically all recognized contests. 1936 McCarthy Mosshorn unp.):Hoolihaning. The old-time practice of bulldogging.


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Subject: RE: Hoolian???????
From: _gargoyle
Date: 23 Nov 99 - 01:13 PM

For a photo of a man "throwing a hoolihan" go here:Ropeing School

The following is an excerpt from the script of "Horse Whisperer"

How's it going?

Smokey doesn't respond -- how it's going is exactly how it looks. Tom takes a few steps, stops and stands still again. We sense the process is long and requires great patience.

DISSOLVE TO:

EXT. ROUND PEN - DAY

Two hours later. Grace is in the same spot. Smokey is gone, doing his work. Annie has taken a different position, looking over SEVERAL PAGES OF FAXES on her lap.

Tom is still standing in the pen trying to get Pilgrim's eyes.

Joe has joined the proceedings, sitting on the pen rail.

Tom deftly throws a hoolihan, gently lassoing Pilgrim around the neck. And Pilgrim, at the touch of the rope, crazed, resists, pulling back, striking at the rope... The rope cutting into Tom's hands. Tom gives him some slack, giving his head, letting him relax... then gently heads him by the rope, walking him around the pen, getting his feet to moving.

Grace's eyes never leave Tom.


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Subject: RE: Hoolian???????
From:
Date: 23 Nov 99 - 04:28 PM

It's "for Firey and Snuffy are rarin' to go"

Two horses names.

Richard


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Subject: RE: Hoolian???????
From: ernest
Date: 23 Nov 99 - 06:44 PM

The way I heard it first{from My father, who was a cowboy},was--IM leavin Wyomin, IM goin to Montan. The lines the firey, and snuffy, went, theyer firey, and snuffy, and ready to run..


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Subject: RE: Hoolian???????
From: DougR
Date: 24 Nov 99 - 12:29 PM

From?: Two horses names. Sounds reasonable to me. Ernest's explanation would make sense too though.

DougR


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Subject: RE: Hoolian???????
From: d.west
Date: 24 Nov 99 - 10:46 PM

a hoolian is a backwards loop. that is- the loop is thrown backwards from you, not forewards, so as not to spook the horse (cow, whatever) so bad. if done right, the animal doesn't even know it's comming until the rope's already alround it's neck.

the firey and the scruffy- just a way to identify 2 horses. real cowboys aren't much for cute names. horses will be called-the big mare, the bay, the app, the paint, yellow, the dun. same with people- the mexican, red on the head, the potatoe boys, slow tracker, etc. the firey and the scruffy were rarin' to go- is th way i understand it.


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Subject: RE: Hoolian???????
From: Allan C.
Date: 13 Feb 05 - 12:03 PM

This page confirms what d.west said. An excellent photo, (click it to enlarge,) accompanys the definition. A nice array of other cowboy terms and photos thereof can be found there, too.

Hoolihan: A style of loop used when throwing a rope: a loop thrown over the head with the wrist turned backwards often used for roping horses because the rope is not swung before it is released, so it does not excite the animals.


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Subject: RE: Hoolian???????
From: Brakn
Date: 13 Feb 05 - 12:21 PM

I thought I recognised this thread.


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Subject: RE: Hoolian???????
From: Barry Finn
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 03:58 AM

refresh


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Subject: RE: Hoolian???????
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 07:08 AM

So, is this like 'cow tipping'? *G*


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Subject: RE: Hoolian???????
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jul 15 - 04:35 AM

I had the great good fortune to be a working cowboy for a few years.

A hoolihan is that backhand wrist-twisting throw others have described her, mostly used for catching horses, although the old Spanish vaqueros also used to use it from horseback to catch an animal going behind them. Also, it was used to describe an animal being suddenly flipped - "I put the rope on him and threw a trip, and he just hoolihaned right there." Alsoa real donnybrook, a wreck, a mixup up men and animals,

And I believe the line in the tune is "Ride around, little dogies, ride around them slow / for they're fiery and snuffy and raring to go", where "fiery" and "snuffy" describe the mood of the cattle, when they're like that, all nervous and ready to run. Ride around and around and around, keep it slow and easy, don't spook the buggers or they'll be gone, they sure are fiery and snuffy tonight.


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Subject: RE: Hoolian???????
From: Brakn
Date: 15 Jul 15 - 07:20 PM

Thread started 17 years ago by me. Fancy that.


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Subject: RE: Hoolian???????
From: Thompson
Date: 16 Jul 15 - 06:32 AM

How to throw a houlihan (named, presumably, for the Irish person called Houlihan who developed the throw).

A heifer is a virgin cow, also known as a stripper.


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Subject: RE: Hoolian???????
From: GUEST,#
Date: 16 Jul 15 - 06:55 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJ0JgqoF2W4

City of New Orleans sung by Goodman in 1972 The lyrics are very clear.


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Subject: RE: Hoolian???????
From: GUEST,#
Date: 16 Jul 15 - 07:00 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOhjjjnytLw

Demonstration of the One Swing Hoolihan.


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Subject: RE: Hoolian???????
From: GUEST,#
Date: 16 Jul 15 - 09:32 AM

Would it be possible to change the spelling of the thread title to something like

Throwing a Hoolihan/Houlihan ??


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Subject: RE: Hoolian???????
From: Thompson
Date: 16 Jul 15 - 09:54 AM

Adorbz version of City of New Orleans, though I'm not sure what it has to do with houlihan-throwing.


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Subject: RE: Hoolian???????
From: GUEST,#
Date: 16 Jul 15 - 01:04 PM

"Adorbz version of City of New Orleans, though I'm not sure what it has to do with houlihan-throwing."

Has nothing to do with it at all. It was posted in response to Art's (RIP) post of 02 Nov 98 - 11:34 AM.


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Subject: RE: Hoolian???????
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Nov 16 - 09:03 AM

The term Hoolian or Hoolihan is said to derive from 'hooligan' originated from the name of a disreputable Irish Family.
Jim Carroll

From The Penguin Dictionary of slang:
HOOLIGAN. A lively rough, not necessarily nor usually criminal: from ca 1895: s. till ca 1910, then coll. Ex a 'joie-de-vivre' Irish family (the Houlihans) resident, in the middle 1890s, in the Borough (London): W. For a description of the career of Patrick Hooligan (Houlihan), see Clarence Rook, The Hooligan Nights, 1899, ch. 2.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Hoolian???????
From: leeneia
Date: 22 Nov 16 - 10:05 AM

The name of the rope-throw is houlihan.

Hoolian (Julian) is the name of the art director of the Nelson Atkins Museum of Fine Art, Julian Zugazagoitia. Understandably, he is known by his first name.


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Subject: RE: Hoolian???????
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Nov 16 - 11:35 AM

Never heard of a heifer being called a stripper in these parts.
In the days of handmilking cows each milker, who usualy milked around six cows, would be followed by another, who was known as a stipper who would strip [ie the cow] to ensure that it was completely milked out thus helping to prevent any disease developing in the beast.
When milking machines were invented, by Murchison of Kilmarnuck, the stripper would strip the four teats before the machine was attached thus ensuring that they were all fully functioning.
The late ??? Innes informed me that the famous Turra Coo was a three titter ie. it only produced milk from 3 tits---not the best beast to have in your byre.


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Subject: RE: Hoolian???????
From: leeneia
Date: 23 Nov 16 - 10:09 AM

Why would houlihan actually be hooligan, as alleged above?

I googled John Houlihan and then Michael Houlihan. Houlihan is clearly a rather common and ordinary Irish surname.


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Subject: RE: Hoolian???????
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Nov 16 - 11:14 AM

"Why would houlihan actually be hooligan, as alleged above?""
The second is a corruption of the first.
The explanation is in the definition
Here is a confirmation of the belif of the origin, from the delectaable; 'The Insect that Stole the Butter (Oxford Dictionary of Word Origins).

hooligan [L19th] The Hooligans were a fictional rowdy Irish family in a music hall song of the 1890s, and a comic Irish character called Hooligan appeared in a series of adventures in the magazine Funny Folks. One or other may have given their name to the hooligan, a phenomenon who made his debut in newspaper reports of cases in police courts in 1898. The football hooligan is first mentioned in the mid 1960s. See also thug, vandal
Jim Carroll


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