BBC rubbishes Eng. Folk again

Subject: BBC rubbishes Eng. Folk again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Aug 02 - 05:32 AM

R2 presenter Don Maclean on Sunday read a letter from a listener complaining that he had said there was no English folk tradition, only Irish and Scots.
DM was very dismissive and off hand in his reply. He said that he only meant that English music and song was not "exported" to America as Irish and Scots was.
After all, he said, you never hear Greensleeves or A Lover And His Lass in the Nashville top ten.
I did send an E Mail to DM but I can not write with much knowledge about the history of folk here and over the water. Perhaps someone else could put him straight please.
Keith.

Subject: RE: BBC rubbishes Eng. Folk again
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 Aug 02 - 05:42 AM

Can't really expect much from an ex Crackerjack presenter.

Subject: RE: BBC rubbishes Eng. Folk again
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 Aug 02 - 05:43 AM

CRACKERJACK!

Subject: RE: BBC rubbishes Eng. Folk again
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 13 Aug 02 - 06:02 AM

Is it Friday already?

Subject: RE: BBC rubbishes Eng. Folk again
From: fogie
Date: 13 Aug 02 - 06:07 AM

Don't forget how famous he once was! Working on Crackerjack gave him time to write Vincent, and American Pie. I can see he was never an English folkie.

Subject: RE: BBC rubbishes Eng. Folk again
From: masato sakurai
Date: 13 Aug 02 - 06:35 AM

Nearly a hundred years ago (in 1907), Cecil J. Sharp wrote in English Folk Song: Some Conclusions (4th ed., rev. by Maud Karpeles, p. xix):

The subject of English folk song has recently been very prominently before the public. Twenty years ago, however, it was only by a very few people that folk songs were known to exist in this country; and even they, probably, were quite unprepared for the developments that have since taken place. At that time, and for several years afterwards, it was generally assumed that we had no folk songs of our own, and that the English peasant was the only one of his class in all Europe who was unable to express himself in terms of dance and song. How, in the face of facts as we now know them, such an amazing misconception could have originated, obtained credence, and escaped disproof for so many years, is an enigma which we will not here attempt to explain. It is enough that recent researches have finally disposed of the grotesque supposition. Those who realize all that this means, and who perceive the fresh prospects that have been brought into view, are naturally jubilant.

~Masato

Subject: RE: BBC rubbishes Eng. Folk again
From: Strupag
Date: 13 Aug 02 - 08:29 AM

Getting back to the original thread, I bet there are variations of Greensleeves etc. sung in Nashville. From a Scots perspective, we have seen tune of "The Road and Miles to Dundee" become "The Streets of Laurado" whilst the words of "Laurado" are taken from an old London song. We also have had our own form of rubbishing from BBC Radio Scotland. Ian Anderson (The Durness one) has been taken of his weekday programme and is shifted to a 9PM slot. What has he been replaced with? The knowall Tom Morton who gives away prizes of plastic dancing Elvis. When recently challenged why he does not play enough indigenous Scots music, he stated that there are not enough individual bands/artists up to the mark! Sorry Runrig,Dick G, B MacNeil,Capercaillie, Wolfstone,Jim Hunter,Cliar,Blazing Fiddles,Dougie Maclean, Andy M Stewart,Phil & Ally,Battlefield Band,Sandy Brechin, Donald Black.... I really could go on until I ran out of space and then do the same with English artists. Maybe the auld enemies should get together on this one!

Subject: RE: BBC rubbishes Eng. Folk again
From: artbrooks
Date: 13 Aug 02 - 08:46 AM

"Larado", not Laurado. Don't bother going there. Personally, as a fourth generation Yank, I enjoy English, Scots and (yes) Irish music.

Subject: RE: BBC rubbishes Eng. Folk again
From: Mr Happy
Date: 13 Aug 02 - 09:07 AM

isn't it Laredo?

Subject: RE: BBC rubbishes Eng. Folk again
From: GUEST,maryrrf
Date: 13 Aug 02 - 12:54 PM

Speaking of Scottish groups, don't forget Old Blind Dogs - one of my personal favorites!

Subject: RE: BBC rubbishes Eng. Folk again
From: GUEST,HelenJ.
Date: 13 Aug 02 - 02:21 PM

I suggest listening to a proper programme - i.e. Radio Four. Recent programmes included "Songs From The Sea Bed" which dealt with instruments and music from the times of Henry V111. When the Mary Rose was resurrected, there were found to be instruments on board which included the shawm (shaum?) The musicians on the programme played tunes from the times which I recorded. I repeat - listen to a real programme - you'll find trad. music is not rubbished. HelenJ.

Subject: RE: BBC rubbishes Eng. Folk again
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 02 - 03:02 PM

The tune of Greensleeves is also the tune of a beloved Christmas carol sung all over the US, "What Child Is This".

Subject: RE: BBC rubbishes Eng. Folk again
From: smallpiper
Date: 13 Aug 02 - 03:03 PM

Unfortunately the English - in general - take great pride in rubbishing their heritage, just look at the general populus's view of morris dancing for a kick off. Is it then suprising that the BBC should do anything than reflect the plebs values - What ever happened to "educate and entertain" -shame on them I say!

Subject: RE: BBC rubbishes Eng. Folk again
From: GUEST,Jennifer in Cambridge, England
Date: 13 Aug 02 - 03:22 PM

I'll tell you what I believe happened to 'educate & entertain' in music on the BBC - the same thing as happened with literature: educate & entertain within the limits of 'the canon' (of literature and music)...that 'canon' set up by a supposedly elite for the education and entertainment of a populace whose 'good taste' supposedly needed developing!

Phew! Glad I got that off my chest - been wanting to shout that from the rooftops for years!!!

Subject: RE: BBC rubbishes Eng. Folk again
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 Aug 02 - 03:34 PM

So the BBC gave people what they thought they needed rather than what they may have wanted?

Now they just give them what they think they want?

Subject: RE: BBC rubbishes Eng. Folk again
From: Gareth
Date: 13 Aug 02 - 04:15 PM

Speaking as a Welshman its really all English Folk, it's just that the Irish stole it.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BBC rubbishes Eng. Folk again
From: Schantieman
Date: 13 Aug 02 - 04:53 PM

My Mum invented Crackerkack pencils!

Subject: RE: BBC rubbishes Eng. Folk again
From: Schantieman
Date: 13 Aug 02 - 04:53 PM

My Mum invented Crackerjack pencils!

Subject: RE: BBC rubbishes Eng. Folk again
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 13 Aug 02 - 05:44 PM

I always wondered why I could not sing those Martin Carthy songs.

Subject: RE: BBC rubbishes Eng. Folk again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Aug 02 - 06:01 PM

Thanks for that correction Schantieman. It was a somewhat disturbing term the first time.

Opening it up and widening that restricted canon Jennifer referred to would indeed have been a good idea, for example to include things like real folk music and song which had been excluded. But in general that wasn't what has happened. Instead we got Big Brother and wall to wall soap. (There's still a certain amount of good radio though - and if you've got cable, BBC Four (TV) is worth keeping an eye on.)

The good thing is that one effect of crap mass media can be to drive people out into the real world to find something better. (Except that for us in England the Public Entertainment Licence stuff then tends to kick in.)

The sad thing about the English (making one of those generalisations with a built-in need to qualify and modify it) is that they often tend to be proudest of the bits of Englishness that they might be better to be ashamed of, and embarrassed and dismissive of the bits that they have a right to be proud of. (And the music and the associated folk traditions are an example of that.)

The same is probably true of a lot of people in all countries. That's the impression that often seems to come across for the USA, for example.

Subject: RE: BBC rubbishes Eng. Folk again
From: GUEST,andymac
Date: 13 Aug 02 - 06:45 PM

Regarding Struag's comments on Ian Anderson being moved on Radio Scotland. I never thought said Mr. Anderson was that keen on folk music anyway. If we're complaining about the removal of someone who's idea of folk music was to play incessant AOR style mass-produced music (and hold them up as champions for our traditions) rather than those artists of genuine merit who never or rarely get played (Jean Redpath, Ian Benzie, Dick Gaughan -apart from one or two "non-political" songs, Gordeanna McCulloch and many many more); is it any wonder that we're ignored, patronised and ghettoised?

There is a place for the sort of music that was played on Ian Anderson's programme, some of which was good music for it's genre, but I was never convinced that it's genre should be called folk music. Sorry for the rant, I've no intention of insulting any of the above contributors, but like Jennifer of Cambridge, I've wanted to say that for ages.

Subject: RE: BBC rubbishes Eng. Folk again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Aug 02 - 03:19 AM

Hi Helen, it was a fluke hearing D.M. as I am a R4 person too. Waking in my car on the sea wall at The Mumbles I retuned when the Sunday Service came on.
Will anyone be putting their comments to R2?
Keith.

Subject: RE: BBC rubbishes Eng. Folk again
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 14 Aug 02 - 09:29 AM

Not being a BBC listener (except for occasional news programmes or the wonderful old comedies heard on our ABC) all I can add to the discussion is a comment relayed by a travelling friend. He passed it on to Roy Bailey when he was here last year - some rather classical presenter complained that Roy was too good a singer to be wasting his time singing folk music.

Aren't we lucky he sings our kind of music, I would have never have heard him if he was singing in opera houses & on concert platforms.

By-the-by, we have the same problem here. Our ABC has several programs that include current folk, and they also record concerts at some festivals, but its only a little bit. Commercial stations which play nostalgia will include some of the US commercial folk hits of the 60's & 70', but nothing of today's music.

Sandra

Subject: RE: BBC rubbishes Eng. Folk again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Aug 02 - 11:31 AM

The odd thing here isn't a dislike of folk music generally, but rather a specific dislike of the folk music of their own country by people who might actually be quite keen on the folk music of other countries.

It's something you get in not just England but in all sorts of places - in many of which there is a magnificent folk heritage. A kind of self-hate. A cultural cringe. Very strange.

Subject: RE: BBC rubbishes Eng. Folk again
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 15 Aug 02 - 09:58 AM

Friends of mine asked the organisers of a folk festival why it was all "world" music - why Anglo-Celt wasn't included, they were told that wasn't folk. Many multi-cultural events exclude anglo-celtic acts.

Grants & other funds are widely available for what are called multi-cultural events, but not so widely available for my cultural heritage.

Australia's cultural cringe is famous - once everything from "Home" was the Good & anything made in Australia was below notice. Home was England & the other bits of the UK. Now the good stuff seems to be from non-English speaking backgrounds. But it is not my heritage.

'nuff said.

Sandra

Subject: RE: BBC rubbishes Eng. Folk again
From: GUEST,Peter from Essex
Date: 15 Aug 02 - 12:05 PM

Egnlish music gets a bit more respect on Radio 3, mostly on Late Junction but they are quite selective and broadcast more "world" music. .

Subject: RE: BBC rubbishes Eng. Folk again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Aug 02 - 01:25 PM

I've always assumed "world music" essentially means "folk music", but from everywhere. My impression is that Irish instrumental music especially tends to be seen as quite at home in mixed company. For some odd reason when English music is involved a lot of people tend to assume it's Irish.

But, for places where people really seem to turn their back on their own musical traditions, my impression is that it's a lot worse in other European countries such as Holland and Germany, where enthusiastic folkies seem to be totally unaware of their very existance.

At least in England if people are into folk music (a very big "if) they tend to be aware of and respect the English music, even when they are more likely to be trying to play the Irish, for example. (It tends to come out sounding English anyway.) That's in spite of the Morris Dancer jokes, which really aren't any more serious than the bodhran jokes and the banjo jokes.

Subject: RE: BBC rubbishes Eng. Folk again
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Aug 02 - 02:11 PM

Residing on this side of the puddle, I'm not familiar with Don Maclean, but it's a rare day when the Nashville Top Ten contains any folk music it all. Most of the stuff was written shortly before the song was recorded, and unless one insists on subscribing to the "horse theory," that's a pretty poor criterion for what is or is not folk music, English, Irish, Scottish—or American, for that matter. A "Top Ten" recording in any genre tends to sink into oblivion as soon as the radio stations stop playing it. That's what they're for. They're "disposable." You have to get them out of the way to make room for the next batch.

I wouldn't look to the Nashville Top Ten for folk songs any more than I would look to recordings of Broadway musicals. You might find them there, but the pickings will be pretty slim.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BBC rubbishes Eng. Folk again
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Aug 02 - 02:37 PM

I've always assumed "world music" essentially means "folk music", but from everywhere.

In England I think "world music" means any music from anywhere else except England!

With the notable exception of classical music, which is referred to (especially by the BBC), simply as "music".

Subject: RE: BBC rubbishes Eng. Folk again
From: DG&D Dave
Date: 16 Aug 02 - 05:07 AM

I would like to praise BBC Radio 4 for the use of John Tams material in a radio play of "The Charge Of The Light Brigade and also the singing of Mike Waterson in a serial called "Soldier Soldier".

In addition, the BBC provides several local radio folk programmes. I have heard both the East and West Midlands programmes and am impressed with both.

"Folk on 2" I can take or leave.

Dave.

Subject: RE: BBC rubbishes Eng. Folk again
From: Roughyed
Date: 17 Aug 02 - 04:55 AM

You have to consider the way folk music has been used. It was used, along with other elements of peasant and working class culture, to create a sense of nationhood and override class divisions and consciousness by elements of the ruling class who wanted to create a new nation.

There was no need to do this in England who had no one to rebel against and quite a strong sense of nationhood for other reasons. In fact the last thing the English ruling class wanted in the nineteenth century was to reunite the English working class with their own historical culture which is one of oppression, rebellion and resistance. That still holds largely true today and the comments from media people and politicians are the tip of a larger hostile attitude to English working class song. It is no accident that many prominent people in the folk song revival in England came from the left.

Subject: RE: BBC rubbishes Eng. Folk again
From: John Routledge
Date: 17 Aug 02 - 05:40 AM

Thanks Swan - A very illuminating piece.

Subject: RE: BBC rubbishes Eng. Folk again
From: Kernow John
Date: 17 Aug 02 - 11:38 AM

Thanks for the info Keith.
I think I'll email him, just to see what his reply might be.
You do kip in some strange places in that car of yours!
John

Subject: RE: BBC rubbishes Eng. Folk again
From: GUEST,Cookieless for now Barry Finn
Date: 18 Aug 02 - 06:56 AM

Why'd he pick Nashville? It's never been known for it's folk music? It is the captial of Canned County Pop music though.
Would someone correct me if my opinion of English trad music is off course a bit. It seems to me that England during it's period of colonzation was very fond, capable & good at trying to destroy the folk music & culture's of others & were pretty good at it because they first had practiced & perfected their methods upon their own folk first. Thank God for the collectors (everywhere) & the pockets of singing peoples who didn't hold the same view & knew better. It does seem that many countries view their own folk music as worthless until it takes collectors to unearth them. If they'd/we'd only defend our music & cultures as much as our pride & patriotisms we'd all have so much more to be proud of & at the same time gain a bit more respect for those cultures that are at first somewhat strange to the eyes & ears of others. Sorry for the creep but I can't help but finding it really odd that some folks (with a bit of to much power & sway) who try to seem to be the know all to end alls can't see or hear past their own noses & try to make the smell of their own culture stink like shit. Sorry, just woke up so I'm back off to bed till I can wake in a better light of the day. Good morning to you all. Barry

Subject: RE: BBC rubbishes Eng. Folk again
From: Ralphie
Date: 19 Aug 02 - 03:52 AM

Interesting thread.
Having worked for BBC Radio for nearly 30 years, I have seen a lot of changes with regards to their attitude regarding "people" music (Just made that up!)
Yes, of course there will always be un-informed people who churn out the same old jokes, but, I think that in the main, the music of our islands, is getting more coverage than ever before. As has already been mentioned, Radio 3 in particular, (Late Junction, Andy Kershaw) have shown that the best of "our" music, can sit quite happily alongside "Classical" or "Art" music, and is always treated with respect. I would rather Folk music was included within the mainstream of programming, but the music business being what it is, only a very few artists make the cross over. (Bob Harris championing Kate Rusby for instance).
Over on Radio 1, John Peel still includes traditional music, alongside Napalm Death, and Melt Banana!
Radio 4 uses all sorts of "Folkie" influences, Already noted, Tams, and Mike Watersons contribution to "The Charge of the Light Brigade", and their broadcast of the York mystery plays a few years ago.
I also remember Pyewackett working for several years for Schools Radio.
Of course we would all like more, but, as a public service broadcaster, the BBC will always fail to please all the people all the time.
Yes, we can all complain about the situation, but, have you listened to Commercial Radio recently? Jazz FM was originally set up for just that.....Jazz!!..But, didn't attract a big enough audience to satisfy the advertisers, so, listen to it now!
No, the BBC isn't perfect, but, in subtle ways, it doesn't do that badly in champioming the music of the people.
Personally, I prefer that our music should just sit alongside other forms, with no explanation, and no apology, and by and large, considering the size of the organisation, and the demands made on it, It could be a lot worse.
Rest assured, I'll continue to suggest to producers, that they might consider incidental music from The Posh Band!!!
Can I have my pay rise now??
Regards Ralphie
PS. For readers across the many Mudcat Ponds...Most BBC Services are available on the Web...Come and have a listen.

Subject: RE: BBC rubbishes Eng. Folk again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Aug 02 - 08:54 AM

Good points Ralphie. I hoped you would respond.
Good luck,
Keith.

Subject: RE: BBC rubbishes Eng. Folk again
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 Aug 02 - 06:14 PM

Consultations are currently taking place where Civil Servants will decide what is to be considered as being public entertainment in premises in England and Wales.

EFDSS are not directly represented at these consultations.

Subject: RE: BBC rubbishes Eng. Folk again
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 07:38 PM

The BBC are rubbish.

Subject: RE: BBC rubbishes Eng. Folk again
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 04:13 AM

Yes jOhn , but it's ENGLISH rubbish.
eric

Subject: RE: BBC rubbishes Eng. Folk again
From: GUEST,Peter from Essex
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 04:38 AM

If you don't like something the BBC does then tell THEM, posting here is an addition not an alternative.
If you like something that they do then tell them as well so they will do it again.

Late Junction emails sent during the show are seen by the presenter in real time and often responded to on air.

Subject: RE: BBC rubbishes Eng. Folk again
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 05:59 AM

I agree with Peter. Continually reopening old threads here just creates circles of hot air in this forum but doesn't actually do anything positive in the way an approach to the BBC "might".

And before anyone responds I know there is every chance it "might NOT".

John's post is hardly constructive even in this forum, as it's simply a rehash of many other comments he's made, with no actual suggestions of what to do about it.

Subject: RE: BBC rubbishes Eng. Folk again
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 06:11 AM

Peter and Kevin, I have continually told the BBC about things like this, in common with Mike Harding they will not reply to criticism only to compliments.
eric

Subject: RE: BBC rubbishes Eng. Folk again
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 06:33 AM

Things like what Eric? John's post was a bare statement The BBC are rubbish. Hardly likely to reach the ear of an important influential BBC exec, and what sort of reply would yuu expect from the BBC to such a comment?

As I stated I know it might NOT do any good, and I'm sure your comments to the BBC have been of a more constructive nature. I was actually pointing out the inane pointlessness of John's posting, not referring to anything you may have initiated with the BBC.

Best of luck in any "sensible" attempts to change things for the better that any of us may try.

Subject: RE: BBC rubbishes Eng. Folk again
From: GUEST,Peter from Essex
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 09:21 AM

My comments were about the BBC generally not specific to the MH show. There is a lot of use of folk music made elsewhere - when you hear it email and ask for more.

Subject: RE: BBC rubbishes Eng. Folk again
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 12:15 PM

john's postings are famous for their inane pointlessness-he's become quite famous for it-leave him alone. john started his own folk club in Hull, because there was a lack of folk music -hardly lacking in action Kevin.

Subject: RE: BBC rubbishes Eng. Folk again
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 01:19 PM

I'm puzzled to know whoever jOhn might book as he seems to think most performers are rubbish.

Subject: RE: BBC rubbishes Eng. Folk again
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 03:02 PM

No other international broadcaster equals the BBC for quality.
I listen to a variety of broadcasters, some more oriented towards particular genres, but the balance on BBC3 is exceptional.

Subject: RE: BBC rubbishes Eng. Folk again
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 03:13 PM

BBC3? That the one with wall-to-wall soap repeats and stuff?

Subject: RE: BBC rubbishes Eng. Folk again
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 03:17 PM

Altan on Kershaw's BBC Radio 3 programme tonight, by the way.

Subject: RE: BBC rubbishes Eng. Folk again
From: Ed.
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 03:20 PM

I think that Q means Radio 3, countess :-)

Weren't trying to start an arguement were you? I love the BBC, particularly the radio output (and the website). I'm even considering paying the licence fee! *grin*

Not sure why John decided to attack the BBC, I know that he listens to a lot of radio. Too much beer, maybe.

Subject: RE: BBC rubbishes Eng. Folk again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 03:31 PM

And BBC (TV) Four is remarkably good.

And for Radio, try BBC Radio Seven, which you can get online - not for folk but for long-distance repeats, stuff like the Goon Show. I'm all for repeats, when they repeat the right stuff.

Subject: RE: BBC rubbishes Eng. Folk again
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 03:48 PM

Yes, I was referring to Radio 3; the only BBC tv we get in North America are BBC America (a lot of re-runs, many seen on American PBS) and the BBC News channel

Subject: RE: BBC rubbishes Eng. Folk again
From: Ed.
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 03:50 PM

Well said, McGrath.

Any organisation that is attempting to please 50 million people, will obviously get lots of complaints. I find it remarkable that the BBC gets so few. In Britain, we've got the best broadcasting institution in the entire world. If you don't like it, go and live in North Korea.

Subject: RE: BBC rubbishes Eng. Folk again
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 03:59 PM

Countess-I wonder if you would like to name a single instance when i have said a folk performer is rubbish.

Subject: RE: BBC rubbishes Eng. Folk again
From: Ed.
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 04:22 PM

I don't suppose you have, John. You have however made numerous statements, that suggest that many well loved pastimes are vermiculous.

That tends to piss people off.

Subject: RE: BBC rubbishes Eng. Folk again
From: toadfrog
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 04:52 PM

What does it mean to say "English folk songs were not exported to America"? Does it mean, the stuff that popular 20th Century versions on the Hit Parade is more often Scottish or Irish than English? That disregards tradition focuses on contemporary pop as the only kind of "folk music" somebody ever heard of, which is sort of annoying. I think the rule is, traditional English songs went to New York and New England in the 17th and i8th Centuries and are still sung there. Scottish and some Irish songs traveled to Appalachia in the 18th Century, and strictly Irish songs mostly went to the cities, in the 19th and 20th.