Oldest European Folk Song

Subject: RE: Oldest European Folk Song
From: kendall
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 07:49 PM

I'm not a musicologist, but my vote goes to THE FOX. 11th century.

Subject: RE: Oldest European Folk Song
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 03:30 PM

If A.L. Lloyd's tracing of its origins is right, "The Outlandish Knight" goes back about 2000 years to somewhere near the Gobi Desert. Carlo Ginzburg has more recently traced a bunch of vaguely related folklore along a similar pathway, so he may have been right. But with so many changes of language and musical idiom there is no way the original could have used a recognizably similar tune.

A few points from further back in this thread.

Romany songs can't be among the oldest in Europe since they only arrived in Europe in the late Middle Ages.

The notation of the ancient Greek music, like the Skolion of Seikilos, is pretty good; we do have a reasonable idea what it sounded like. But none of those ancient songs has been collected in current tradition.

Some kinds of Eastern chant are possibilities. There are liturgical tunes of the Syriac church which have cognates in Western traditions from which they have been separated by shoot-on-sight theological schisms for about 1800 years.

One other candidate to speculate on: there is a Greek lament (from one of the Greek-speaking parts of Sicily, I think) which I came across in a collection of flute tunes by Quinto Maganini in the 1960s. It uses the scale the Turks call "zengule" and the Indians "bhairava" - C Db E F G Ab B c - I forget the Greek name for it. Maganini said the metre of the tune fitted a chorus from one of the classical Greek dramatists. If the metre in question was a *very* distinctive one, he may have been on to something. I think I still have the book around somewhere but it's going to take some finding.

That "Syrian Song" from ancient Assyria starts like the "Ode to Joy" and continues like "Merrily We Roll Along" so maybe one of those is a candidate.

Subject: RE: Oldest European Folk Song
From: GUEST,Bobdogstar
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 12:29 PM

Lord Randall in Transylvania (muh ha ha).

This business about saddles - they may be post Roman in Britain, but there is no need to assume that Lord Randall originates in any part of the Roman empire - because it is found so widely.

Many old versions do not mention saddles at all.

A Transylvanian version does not mention saddles, and substitutes '4 legged crabs' for eels - but is clearly the same song, verse for verse, in other respects.

How did it get to Transylvania (where they think it is one of their oldest folk songs)? The Austrian Saxons? The Huns? Goodness me - that may be a very ancient song indeed!

Bobdogstar

Subject: RE: Oldest European Folk Song
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 09 Feb 03 - 07:00 AM

Seikilos again:
Here you can see and hear it played on an classical organ and sung.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: Oldest European Folk Song
From: vectis
Date: 08 Dec 02 - 07:35 PM

I once saw the Cutty Wren described as "pre-pagan"?????
I dunno but it's got to be a contender

Subject: RE: Oldest European Folk Song
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 09:55 PM

Greek sound files

"Attempts by modern Greek musicians...to reproduce..." Includes Epitaph of Seikilos. Windows Media Player works. How valid these are, I don't know.

Subject: RE: Oldest European Folk Song
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 08:32 AM

Haruo - at the bottom of the page I gave in my former mail there is also a link to the original source. Here you can hear a modern performance of the song: click at the link Seikilos-Lied to open a QuickTime file.
Since I have no QuickTime player on my computer I tried the alternative wave file. This link is faulty.
Medicaton: Go to the directory and choose the link to Seikilos without an extension. When saving the file you MUST add the extension *.wav, so naming the file Seikilos.wav. Then it works.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: Oldest European Folk Song
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 04:38 AM

Haruo - different kinds of luck:
1. bad: In the old schoolbook I found no picture of this old tombstone.
2. not so bad: Guess where I found a picture? Here!
You can find more looking for Seikilos with Google.
The reference to skolia by the Apostle Paulus is in 1.Cor.15,32.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: Oldest European Folk Song
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 04:17 AM

Obviously Greg is utterly right. The question, however, can be specified in
1. the oldest song preserved in writing
2. the oldest song still sung
and so on.
For 2: look for church songs, using such antique browsers as hymnals &c. Gregorian hymns are still in use today, and in my Lutheran songbook there are some tunes slightly changed to the German translations of their old Latin texts, going back to Ambrosius and the like.
The farther some old songs go back the more difficult it is, naturally, to be sure which is the oldest of them.
For questions of this kind the European churches can't be omitted, true to their conservative strains.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: Oldest European Folk Song
From: greg stephens
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 02:04 PM

Obviously the question is unanswerable, as has been repeatedly pointed out. Dosent mean it's not fun speculating though. Things that are always worth looking at are how widespread a tune is, and into how many variant forms it has mutated. Genetecists do this all the time with mitochondrial DNA/African Eve theories and so on. A quick application of this sort of approach will show that the tune family that includes Dives and Lazarus/Star of the County Down/John Barleycorn etc is probably a great deal older than the "Streets of London". Just where this gets you is open to question, as we don't know how fast tunes change in different social circumstances, but it provides food for thought.

Subject: RE: Oldest European Folk Song
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 12:33 PM

johnc, what is it with you and your obsession with posting the link to that lame ass website in all these different threads?

Subject: RE: Oldest European Folk Song
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 02:59 AM

May I draw your attention to a related thread: Very old music

Wilfried

Subject: RE: Oldest European Folk Song
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 02:25 AM

Haruo - I shall look for the book in which I found the transcription of this skolion into modern notation. It was a school book, and if I remember correctly the musical signs were not dots on lines, but figures giving the heights of the tones. I think a picture of the old tombstone was attached. I only copied the melody in modern notation some 40 years ago for my collection.
I hope to find it in the library of my old school; fortunately the librarian is a neighbour of mine.
More when I have found it.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: Oldest European Folk Song
From: Haruo
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 01:32 AM

Wilfried, what sort of notation is used for the tune on the 1st-century tombstone that you mentioned?

I know there is musical notation extant (and perhaps deciphered) from Sumer (the original Sumer, not the one that is icumen in); but I hadn't heard about notated skolia.

Haruo

Subject: RE: Oldest European Folk Song
From: GUEST,Allan Terego
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 12:48 AM

I know this kind of give and take must be very difficult for Malcolm, and obviously the anonymous one also knows his traditional European Folklore, but Tweed's been a great addition to Mudcat so perhaps just go a bit easy. A lot of us are looking in here to LEARN because we don't know a lot about this specific topic.

Al

Subject: RE: Oldest European Folk Song
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 10:50 PM

Much at the Cantigas site is not working, but the color illustrations are very interesting. Color illuminations showing musicians, instruments and singers are excellent.

Subject: RE: Oldest European Folk Song
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 10:44 PM

The "Cantigas de Santa Maria, 13th Century music manuscript of solo songs, contains 43 "profane cantigas." Cantigas
Some interesting information and illustrations here.
When I click on the link to the profane cantigas, I get "Attencion: La direccion pedida es incorrecta." I will investigate further. By profane, I presume they mean secular, but you never know!

Subject: RE: Oldest European Folk Song
From: pavane
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 12:49 PM

Oh yes, and I forgot, the Welsh have poetry dating back to the 6th Century A.D. I believe. Certainly before the English language existed.
Not sure if it was sung, though.

Subject: RE: Oldest European Folk Song
From: pavane
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 12:47 PM

That is interesting, partly because Mrs Pavane dragged me for a DAY trip to Lapland on Sunday. (3.5 hours on the plane each way, 6 hours there...) We didn't get to hear any traditional song, but we were played some music that I didn't recognise by a trio in the restaurant.

Didn't have time to investigate though.

Subject: RE: Oldest European Folk Song
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 12:14 PM

Unless both the melody and lyrics of a song have been notated, and you can accurately ascribe a date to them, there is no way of knowing how old it is. As I and others have said previously, probably the very act of notation has altered the song in some way. One has only got to look at the way that many collectors have "corrected" melodies because they didn't think untrained musicians "meant" to sing modal tunes or bowdlerised the lyrics because they offended their sense of decency.

Songs which have been handed down orally will probably have changed even more - I recently heard a group perform "Sally Free and Easy" and I think even Cyril Tawney would have had trouble recognising it - that's in less than half a century - just think what half a millenium would do !

If we listen to how much the style of "Art Songs" haa changed in the last 500 years, it's very unlikely that many of the folk songs in the current repertoire are older than a couple of humded years in the form that we sing them.

Subject: RE: Oldest European Folk Song
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 10:02 AM

The Apostle Paulus, in his first letter to the Corinthians, rejects a certain everyday philosophy: "Let us eat, drink, and be merry; tomorrow we will de dead".
This refers to a certain kind of Greek drinking songs called skolia (sing. skolion). The oldest one is preserved on a tombstone of the 1st century A.D., with tune.
Transliteration of the Greek text:
Hoson zês, phainou:
Mêden holôs syllypou.
Pros oligon esti to zên,
To telos ho chronos apaitei.
English translation:
As you are living, appear so;
Don't be dreary too much.
Life is only for short,
The end Time will bring.
The tune, though archaic, is easy to sing and not too merry.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: Oldest European Folk Song
From: AKS
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 09:19 AM

The Sami singing style (rhythmic patterns, melodies, voicing) is indeed old and archaic, but the joikus (~ yoiku, the song) themselves aren't necessarily that old at all. The 'lyrics' - very scarce, if there are any at all - might only be a couple of lines in length, because the singing mostly is 'impromptu lilting on syllables that are not used in ordinary language'.
And notice that when a Lapp sings, s/he does not sing of, but uses the objective case in order to obtain ownership, ruling or deeper understanding of the issue (this feature can be found throughout the Finno-Ugric shamanistic singing tradition). Thus the singer would answer, if asked "what was that joiku about", e.g: "I sang my driving reindeer of tin plate (=skidoo)".

AKS

Subject: RE: Oldest European Folk Song
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 02 Dec 02 - 08:06 PM

"Sumer Is Icumen In," words and music still together, dates from about 1260 according to the best authorities. Gaudeamus Igitur in original form supposedly dates to the same time. The words now sung to the latter are relatively new (18th century). Surely the English song is the oldest one still sung regularly, same words, same tune.   
An image of the original "Sumer..." is on the web (link Sumer Manuscript, above, Dec 01, 02, 2:50 pm). Is an image of the Gaudeamus..." Ms. available?

Subject: RE: Oldest European Folk Song
From: Tweed
Date: 02 Dec 02 - 07:12 PM

Hmmm....a nerd and a nameless GUEST discussing the nicest way to call me an ignorant fool and then a fellow sends us off to a place so filled up with web spiders, crawlers and cookies I had to take the computer out in the back yard to hose the sonofabitch down. Flame on!

I'm sticking with the Sami people from the Arctic lands for the award of oldest European folk songs still sung. I don't give a shit what's written down or what the f*ck you've read, I can hear "old ways" in that singing. I hear hard work and living conditions that no one else would know how to survive in. I hear the agony of a parent looking for a lost child on a frozen lake. I hear a man's lament of how a religious people came to his land and told him he couldn't cross a river to hunt anymore and that he had to pay for the privelege of living in the land where his people had been for 10,000 years already. Hey I am ignorant I guess, but I got ears to hear with anyhow! What do you learned people hear in the little rabbit song?
Yerz,
Tweed

Subject: RE: Oldest European Folk Song
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Dec 02 - 02:45 PM

I was not intending to be mean. Simply to point out that opinions defined by lack of knowledge are of dubious value. I think that we need to be wary of supporting biases with faulty information. I can see that Tweed is enthusiastic, but knowledge requires more.

Subject: RE: Oldest European Folk Song
From: Nerd
Date: 02 Dec 02 - 02:06 PM

Well, Tweed is enthusiastic, perhaps beyond what the evidence supports. The fact is, this has been a problem with a lot of professional folklorists, too, especially early in the discipline. The ideas that "ring around the rosie" date from the Black Death or another plague, or that "John Barleycorn" dates back to pagan times, etc, are all part of the folklore enthusiast's love of old things. Folklorists want so badly for things to be old, that we sometimes have been uncritical, and have accepted whatever explanation allows us to claim the oldest date for an item.

This is intensified when people have something to prove about their culture, eg., when a culture has held minority status in a larger nation. Then the "we must prove that our culture is more ancient and deserving than that of our oppresors" motivation joins the "we just love old stuff" motivation. I suspect this is behind the (apparently) accepted date for the Georgian folksong Tweed mentions; Georgian scholars would have every reason to go for the oldest possible date during the Soviet period. It's also behind such folkloristic projects as the Kalevala; I was watching a National Geographic special where a Finnish scholar states "if it were not for the Kalevala, there would be no Finns anymore. We would all be speaking Swedish or Russian."

So my point is, Tweed may not always be right, but his longing for the old is part of my own love of folksong, too. Let's not be too mean, anonymous guest!

Subject: RE: Oldest European Folk Song
From: Tweed
Date: 02 Dec 02 - 01:58 PM

Dammit GUEST, when yore right, yore right and I sure needed that. Love you baby.

P.S. (pssst, hey also you need to spell "and" wif a "n" and not a "b" but I ain't gonna tell nobody you messed up there. I'll cover for ye, never fret;~)
Yerz,Tweed

Subject: RE: Oldest European Folk Song
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Dec 02 - 08:20 AM

At times this is an interesting thread. However, it has one major flaw, Tweed is woefully ignorant on a number of subjects abd an arguement based on ignorance is a useless one.

Subject: RE: Oldest European Folk Song
From: Declan
Date: 02 Dec 02 - 08:11 AM

Orinoco Flow by Enya. Well it is Celtic Music isn't it.

Back to the learned discussion ...

Subject: RE: Oldest European Folk Song
From: Allan C.
Date: 02 Dec 02 - 08:04 AM

Thanks, Wilfried! It is learning stuff like this that keeps me coming back to the Mudcat.

Subject: RE: Oldest European Folk Song
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 02 Dec 02 - 03:18 AM

Alan C - The crying rabbit is a song printed in older German student song books of the 19th century. It is a translation of a German child song; all kinds of songs were translated by the students into Latin and Greek because of the exercise in classical languages - somtimes very funny. This usage started in the late 18th century and stopped in the 19th century when the use of Latin as official academic language was abandoned.
On the other side, the academic hymn "Gaudeamus igitur" is a genuine Latin song, going back to the 13/14th century in Paris. It had some bawdy verses included we are told; its final hymnal form it got at the University of Halle, Saxony, at the end of the 18th century, by the late Mag. Kindleben. Maybe it is not the oldest European song, but certainly the oldest one still sung regularly. I do it at least twice a year or more at alumni meetings.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: Oldest European Folk Song
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 01 Dec 02 - 07:58 PM

The Hilliard Ensemble has put a number of Medieval songs including "Sumer..." on cd, Harmonia Mundi HMC 1154, from "the oldest surviving sources in England." Some interesting listening here. Sumer is a icumen in

Subject: RE: Oldest European Folk Song
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Dec 02 - 04:55 PM

The plasterers working on the walls in eg Pompeii would be singing at their work. The vibrations caused in the trowel are recorded in minute markings in the plaster, exactly like a gramophone record. Play them back with a trowel with attached horn. Easy. Judging by the pictures on the walls, they will probably turn out to be songs of the "Good Ship Venus" type.

Subject: RE: Oldest European Folk Song
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 01 Dec 02 - 02:50 PM

Just answered my question. The music is as old as the poem, ca. 1260. Sumer manuscript

What were the other musical pieces (French liturgical) in the Harley Ms? (Probably all published elsewhere)

Subject: RE: Oldest European Folk Song
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 01 Dec 02 - 02:37 PM

Here is a summary, for my own little brain. Comment and argument welcome.
We have poems from the ancient Chinese, the Middle Eastern peoples, Egyptians, etc. and their musical instruments from tombs, at least back to 2500 BC. The complexity of the Chinese instruments found in tombs indicates an advanced musical culture before 2000 BC. But are these songs still sung? No, certainly not to the ancient tunes. We have Greek and Roman poetry, and literary indication that some of it was sung, but the notations are unknown.

We have Christian liturgical music from about 900 AD on, and ancient music groups make a reasonable job of interpreting the directions and early attempts at notation. Much of this can be considered folk, since the authors are unknown. The earliest dated and author-identified European music is from the 1100-1200 AD period, work by Hildegard von Bingen and Leonin (and possibly others in the Iberian area, studies in progress). Some preserved liturgical chant is a little older, but the chanting would not count as music in the sense we are looking for here.
Peoples of the Ukraine and Georgia also may have liturgical music verifiable to the Middle Ages.
Much of what we know of old Hebrew music is from the Sephardic Jews, who were expelled along with the Islamic people from the Iberian Peninsula by Christians, the last gasp in the 1490s. Much interesting music, but is there anything verifiable before about 1200?

North American pueblo culture goes back to at least 1000 AD; material in some of the chants may be this old, but studies show that there have been shifts in belief and therefore in chants.
We have musical instruments from pre-Christian Central and South America. Several groups, including some native, play these instruments but the music played probably doesn't go back more than a few hundred years at most.
Hindu India, because of the nature of their social and religious beliefs, has been called by some anthropologists the only surviving stone age culture, but I can't comment on the antiquity of any of their songs- ignorance complete here. Change undoubtedly occurred here as well, one only has to look at the Mogul and other influences.

The little animal story brought up by Allen C. (often with a moral) is an example of a whole genre of folk tale that undoubtedly is old, but tunes and meters have changed with time and transmission.

Folk music, I think by definition, changes through time. I would not expect any song to persist unchanged over about 1000 years. Music may persist but transferred to new songs, poems are re-written to fit a situation or the nature of the singer. The 1000 year limit is pretty well verified by the music for which we have data. This is liturgical music. Secular music cannot be verified beyond the 13th century.

By the way, when was the tune attached to the Middle English "Sumer is icumen in"??

Subject: RE: Oldest European Folk Song
From: Cluin
Date: 01 Dec 02 - 01:39 PM

How about "Young MacDonald just got a farm"?

Subject: RE: Oldest European Folk Song
From: Allan C.
Date: 01 Dec 02 - 12:34 PM

I believe there may be some argument for "Hangman" as being a candidate for the title. Variants of it have been documented throughout Europe, dating back many centuries.

I cannot attest to the current popularity of another song I know, but it seems to go back quite a way (forgive any spelling errors):

Flevit Lepus

Flevit lepus parvalus
Clamens altis vocibus
Quid fecci hominibus
Quod me secunter canibus? (repeat X2)

Roughly translated:

The Little Rabbit

The poor little rabbit
Exclaims in a loud voice
Why makes men
Always chase me with dogs? (or sticks, depending upon translator)

Subject: RE: Oldest European Folk Song
From: Tweed
Date: 01 Dec 02 - 11:54 AM

Here's a page with a little more info on the Saami people and their music. Seems like if there was any music that the Churchy people didn't understand it got labeled "Devil's Music", worldwide. Glad some of it made it through the blight.
More on Saami (Lapps) Music here.

I hesitate now to use the word "Lapplanders" to describe these folks as I learned today that it is a derogatory term meaning "People with Patches on their Clothes", given by the early missionaries and soldiers.

Tweed

Subject: RE: Oldest European Folk Song
From: Santa
Date: 01 Dec 02 - 11:37 AM

There seems to be a common assumption here, that pagan music and song were just a series of grunts.

Whatever else we do or don't know, the languages of pre-Christian peoples were every bit as rich and expressive as those that have followed. The arrogance and self-importance of the religious follows us everywhere.

Subject: RE: Oldest European Folk Song
From: Tweed
Date: 01 Dec 02 - 11:04 AM

Well, I might have found it! Possibly the oldest European Folk Song still sung today. It's from a Saami website and is a wav file of the old way of singing north of the Arctic Circle.
Traditional Jojkt song (WAV file)

Subject: RE: Oldest European Folk Song
From: Tweed
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 07:03 AM

I think the Church had a hand at altering and/or destroying anything that was non-Christian as they gained the spiritual foothold over the "heathens". Was it not the custom to sell real estate in heaven to folks on death's bed in exchange for their earthly holdings? What about the flaggellists who marched around beating themselves to gain entry to the pearly gates? Spanish Inquisition? Jacques DeMolay and the Templars burned alive and slaughtered? Childrens Crusade? The Church had an enormous impact on Northern and Western European culture and I don't think I'd be far off in suggesting that the people's songs were affected along with anything else they'd managed to invent to amuse themselves with that was not Doctrine. Correct me if I'm way off base, but I don't see how you will be able to.

Subject: RE: Oldest European Folk Song
From: GUEST,Lucius
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 09:17 PM

If Europe looks to Greece as the boilerplate for its civilization, then the answer would have to be "Anthem to the Sun". Sorry, but I don't know the ancient Greek title, but it is not the Greatful Dead tune, I swear.

If you look to older European traditions, I guess that you'd have to consider un-notated pagan grunts, much in the style and spirit of tunes like "Louie-Louie".

Subject: RE: Oldest European Folk Song
From: toadfrog
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 08:45 PM

Dichio and Nerd both said what I should have, and better. What set me off was the idea of a Christian "conquest" ruthlessly destroying old artifacts and cultures, and making the "West" essentially different from everybody else, who retained their robust musical roots from earliest antiquity. That just didn't happen.

Subject: RE: Oldest European Folk Song
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 08:19 PM

There is no evidence that the music handed down by aboriginals, Inuit, or any group is "really, really" old. Among the pueblo people of the southwest, with whom I am familiar, there are traditions about previous dwelling sites back to about 900-1100 that have been documented in some cases (they mostly point to the work of the archaeologists for verification and to similarities in culture and artifacts, their older oral histories are very limited and uncertain). When did their chants originate? Not even they claim any certain knowledge here. They could have been re-written and set to new music many times. The basic ideas are handed down, but the custodians added their own embellishments.

Chinese musical instruments of great refinement have been found in tombs 2500 years old and older. I do not know of any tunes of the time that have been preserved. In a twist, music for these instruments has been written recently by Tan Dun and other composers.

Subject: RE: Oldest European Folk Song
From: Tweed
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 07:14 PM

Don , I believe Mz.KatLaughing has devised a way to view these events in action *Here (the time machine thread)*

Subject: RE: Oldest European Folk Song
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 01:08 PM

Nerd, that pretty well sums it up. There is no real answer; the best one can do is speculate, and that sort of thing can go on endlessly. It is worthwhile asking the question though, because the effort to find an answer may turn up a lot of interesting stuff. But in the end (barring any new and amazing archeological finds), the answer will always remain beyond reach.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Oldest European Folk Song
From: Nerd
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 12:38 PM

There are, I think, two problems with Tweed's initial assumptions. First, that no European folksong that has survived is very old. We just don't know. He disqualifies Lord Randall because it mentions saddles, but of course the paraphernalia mentioned in songs changes all the time. Matty Groves, as sung by Dillard Chandler, involves Lord Arnold pulling out a "special" and shooting his wife dead, though we know the song predates the use of handguns. Lord Randall, by the way, is related in theme to the Donna Lombarda song mentioned by Dorareever (both involve men poisoned by women through ingesting snakes or eels, and may both be descended from a truly ancient, pre-roman ancestor. There's no way to tell because the songs weren't written down.

The second problem is the claim that other cultures do have folksongs that have survived that long. Hebrew is mentioned as one category, but no ancient Hebrew song is a folksong carried by oral tradition, because no-one spoke Hebrew as a vernacular language for many years. All Hebrew songs that exist today are either new songs or very old songs re-learned from manuscripts whose origins as "folksongs" cannot be confirmed. Secondly, Inuit and other native American cultures are cited as examples. But there is no evidence whatsoever that any of the songs sung by any of these people is that old. There are only claims made by tribal elders that it has "always been sung." This is no better than the evidence given by Miss Tongue for "Three Danish Galleys."

Basically, Tweed, I think you proceed from a false assumption. Europeans are no better or worse endowed with ancient folksongs than most other peoples. For those who developed writing systems early (like middle eastern and Chinese) you'll find songs recorded in writing very early, and some of those are re-learned today, but that has nothing to do with barabrianism or civilization, just with the mechanics of history. None of these songs have been in continuous oral tradition, or at least there's no evidence that they have.

Subject: RE: Oldest European Folk Song
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 12:30 PM

There are at least 2 other candidates undiscussed. The Basques definitely lived in Europe. Many Romany, though not necessarily of European extraction (depending on your interpretation) sing the oral tradition of their people. Does that count? Or are we still saying that if someone who came to Europe that far back produced a song does it qualify as a European song?

Subject: RE: Oldest European Folk Song
From: dorareever
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 10:57 AM

The song has surely the melody and the subject dating to the 900 or 100 AD,but the words changed and there are many versions that surely were born much later.Because the song is in italian or in dialect,not in latin.The melody and the subject are earlier stuff.

Subject: RE: Oldest European Folk Song
From: Airto
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 07:05 AM

Some of the flamenco songs of southern Spain must surely go back a long way, but perhaps don't qualify as "European-descended".