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Folk music is for lesbians
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk music is for lesbians From: boglion Date: 20 Aug 02 - 07:46 PM Look I'm a bit confused here. Dominic Behan wrote "Patriot Game" Brendan Behan wrote "The Auld Triangle" But what did their brother Les write or sing???? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk music is for lesbians From: DougR Date: 20 Aug 02 - 09:32 PM I'll join Seamus in thanking Garg for posting the article. I'm registered to read the NYT, but It was easier to read it here, then read the comments. I don't think the fans of lesbian folk singers are much different than rabid fans of any other artist. Certainly the swooning of young girls over Frank Sinatra and Elvis was a sexual thing. I'd venture to guess both of them had hetro as well as homo fans. I'm not familiar with the music of most of the ladies mentioned in the article, but evidently they (the writers of the songs and the performers) concentrate on issues of interest to lesbians. So big deal. I can't imagine a performer of any sexual persuasion would not welcome fans of any sexual persuasion. It must have been a slow news day in New York. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk music is for lesbians From: michaelr Date: 20 Aug 02 - 10:58 PM Ani DiFranco has recorded with Utah Phillips, and Dar Williams has toured with Joan Baez, which assigns these two SINGER-SONGWRITERS sort of fringe-folk credentials. Holly Near might also qualify, but the rest of the performers mentioned are clearly pop/rock/SS, whereas Melissa Etheridge is (IMO) just crap. It appears to me that "womyn's music" as a subgroup of American popular music tends to value sexual identity over quality. Cheers, Michael |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk music is for lesbians From: katlaughing Date: 21 Aug 02 - 12:04 AM Nobody who really looks into Holly Near's years of social activism and listens to her songs can doubt that she qualifies, at least on the edges...she's good enough for Seeger and several others and she has worked tirelessly to bring out the voices of people in struggle all over the world: Her strength as a performer lead to creative collaborations with such artists as Ronnie Gilbert, Pete Seeger, Arlo Guthrie, Mercedes Sosa, Bernice Johnson Reagon, Inti Illimani, Bonnie Raitt, Cris Williamson, Jill Eikenberry, Michael Tucker, and Linda Tillery. In 1972, Near founded Redwood Records which was a major force in alternative music for nearly 20 years. Redwood Records was dedicated to recording and promoting music by politically conscious artists from around the world. Near helped support the work of artists from Nicaragua, Chile, Australia, Canada, England, Argentina, Cuba, Uruguay, Viet Nam, El Salvador, Mexico, and The United States. She has received numerous awards for her work for social change, including honors from the ACLU, The National Lawyers Guild, The National Organization for Women, and MS Magazine (Woman of the Year). In 2000, Near received The Legends of Women's Music Award for her pioneering work in lesbian and feminist music. To date, Holly has released 20 recordings and has appeared as a guest on many others. She sings a duet with Mary Travers on Peter, Paul and Mary's, Lifelines and does a beautiful rendition of "Quiet Early Morning" for Where Have All the Flowers Gone, a 1998 retrospective of the music of Pete Seeger. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk music is for lesbians From: kendall Date: 21 Aug 02 - 06:29 AM It's interesting to me that so many "straight" people get hung up on the sexual aspect of "Gay" relationships. Like heterosexual relationships, there is so much more to it than that. Personally, I couldn't care less if a person worships toadstools and sleeps with horses. It's none of my business! Now, how about an article on straight folksingers? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk music is for lesbians From: GUEST,Lanfranc at the orifice Date: 21 Aug 02 - 06:51 AM The sexual orientation of performers or audiences matters not a damn. What is a tad worrying is that acquiring a reputation for being a "gay" scene would not help live folk/acoustic music. A high proportion of the potential audience, whilst not actively homophobic, would not feel comfortable in an overtly homosexual milieu. Let's be inclusive, not exclusive, unless we want to be even further marginalised. BTW Cross-dressing has been a feature of Morris dancing since ever! Alan
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk music is for lesbians From: Venthony Date: 21 Aug 02 - 08:15 AM Thankyou Mudlark. Thankyou, thankyou, thankyou. You said exactly what I was trying to say in a lot less space. Tony |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk music is for lesbians From: Ron Olesko Date: 21 Aug 02 - 09:32 AM Isn't it amazing how much confusion and bickering comes about because of labels. Why do we like to put performers into such neat boxes - folk, non-folk, women's music, Celtic, rock, progressive rock, etc. What is next, left-handed female artists born on Tuesdays? Either you like the music or you don't. Ron |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk music is for lesbians From: Venthony Date: 21 Aug 02 - 10:09 AM Yes, I like the music or I don't. And I like Holly Near. A lot. Whatever her sexuality is or isn't. At my age, sexuality is more of a pleasant memory than a preferance or a political issue. But folk music -- which in the strict sense is, if not "prehistoric," then transhistoric -- is universal and foundational to what we are as human beings. I know a lot of people on this forum don't like boundaries and restrictions, but somewhere there needs to be a line drawn between music based on a culture and music (however good and fulfilling) based on composers, recording artists, tours and contracts. We live in a declining age. All you "ban the multinational corporations" folks on this site should appreciate that. Like John Lennon once said about rock n roll (my papraphrase): It's a chair -- not a fancy chair, not an art chair, not a leather chair, and not a chair you go to a museum (or or concert hall) to see and admire. It's the first chair. You can sit on that music. Or, in another of my awkward paraphrases, Stephen Benet once said something like, "The old world disappeared when the last mountain girl got a radio." Yes, all this putting of artists into boxes is distracting and somewhat dangerous. But I think we need to be careful and respectful of some of the general boundaries -- and most especially the insidious effects of pop culture on old tunes. I am even so bold to think that Ms. Near, for whom I have tremendous respect, might agree. Tony |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk music is for lesbians From: Peter T. Date: 21 Aug 02 - 11:55 AM Canada was Floridized a long time ago, or is it the other way around? yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk music is for lesbians From: Little Hawk Date: 21 Aug 02 - 02:27 PM More importantly, I think we need a thread investigating what sort of music ducks and other waterfowl are listening to these days... Oh, where can I find that Shatner photo, Giok? - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk music is for lesbians From: michaelr Date: 21 Aug 02 - 08:00 PM kat -- thanks for reminding me of Holly Near's folk credentials. Cheers, Michael |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk music is for lesbians From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 21 Aug 02 - 08:19 PM Tony made a good point - "Yes, all this putting of artists into boxes is distracting and somewhat dangerous. But I think we need to be careful and respectful of some of the general boundaries -- and most especially the insidious effects of pop culture on old tunes." That is very, very true. However, I am a firm believer that this is a living tradition - it will evolve and it should. The first time someone put a microphone in front of a singer the boundaries began changing. Heck, you can even say the first time Cecil Sharp or John Lomax (and those before them)collected a song the boundaries changed sharply. I'm all for respecting, perserving, and keeping the tradition alive. There is no reason why people can't enjoy a Holly Near and enjoy Aunt Molly Jackson. I think we all spend to much time worrying about the tradition dieing instead of using that time to keep it alive and growing. Ron |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk music is for lesbians From: katlaughing Date: 22 Aug 02 - 01:03 AM Welcome, Michael...it was on her bio page. Thanks, kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk music is for lesbians From: GUEST,Argenine Date: 22 Aug 02 - 01:39 AM LOL, Big Mick! (er...Amicus Gigantus Miccus) Har-de-har-har, Millwall BTW, why do we gotta 'genrify' every musician? Surely there are writers/performers who sometimes write/sing/play "folk songs" and sometimes "pop," "rock and roll," "blues," "country/western," "reggae," or "jazz." (Right, Ron?) Is that agin the law or sump'n? Yeah, I think it's sad that an artist's following should decrease when/because her/his sexual orientation becomes public knowledge. Sad when K.D, Lang's commercial popularity dropped after she "came out" as a lesbian. Equally sad if the careers of artists like Holly Near should take a dive because they "come out" as And, LaFranc, I think you're onto something. Grown men prancing around wearing bells and ribbons and waving streamers--- hmmmmmm. Arge |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk music is for lesbians From: Don Firth Date: 22 Aug 02 - 02:03 AM Quentin Crisp, who styles himself as "one of the stately homos of England," is quite androgynous in his appearance. In a TV interview he once described how someone asked him if he were a man or a woman. He answered, "Does it really matter? I mean—what are you suggesting that we do?" Good question. Really, what does a person's gender or sexual orientation matter—unless one has plans that include them. . . . ? Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk music is for lesbians From: Big Mick Date: 22 Aug 02 - 10:46 AM Amen, Don. And Ron, once again I am right there with you. Music, in general, is about enjoyement. There are many bands/singers that I enjoy just listening to. Many of them are in genre's I am not necessarily fond of, but I just like the music. But I do think we must be careful, at times, to preserve the intent of the music. One of the things that I require in my listening choices is that it must make sense. I don't have a problem with taking an old song and giving it a new take. But what I do have a problem with is doing songs in a way that doesn't make sense. A dear friend of mine has a perfect example of this. He put out a CD with Stephen Fosters "Hard Times" on it. He does this song as a hand clapping, feel good song, complete with upbeat tempo and the whole bit. I look around at the people listening to it and wonder if they even hear the words. Another of my friends doesn't understand why I can't stand his version. But to me it doesn't make anymore sense than the Backstreet Boys doing a hip hop, dance version of "Will the Circle Be Unbroken". It doesn't fit, nor does it even make sense. There is a fine line between respect for the tradition, and daring new renditions. I love those who can navigate it successfully. Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk music is for lesbians From: EBarnacle1 Date: 22 Aug 02 - 12:44 PM We are recapping every evolutionary discussion here. When Rock first began, most of the groups knew three chords and a couple of simple melodies. The groups that survived came closer to mainstream. So did most of the other movements as their performers learned more. As long as we are not being forced to "perform/live it my way or not at all," there should not be an issue with any of these movements. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk music is for lesbians From: Genie Date: 22 Aug 02 - 02:45 PM Perhaps the popularity of some songwriters with lesbians or gays in general is the gender neutrality of their lyrics--in contrast to the bulk of pop, rock, and c/w fare which is often quite sex-specific if not out-and-out sexist. Many women (gay or not) may feel excluded by lyrics that make a lot of use of words like "man" as part of their rhyme scheme (like Lee Greenwood's "God Bless The USA"*) or that tie the love song to the physical characteristics of the (usually female) beloved. Is it my imagination, or do female lyricists more often frame love songs in the second person (so you don't have to use personal pronouns like "him" and "her")? One song that comes to mind is Holly Near's song where she refers to the object of her affection as "sweet one," where a lot of writers would say "sweet girl" or "sweet lady" or "my lover man" or something else that's gender specified. A lot of Kate Wolf's lyrics (though not all of them) also could be sung from the standpoint of a gay or straight male or female. "Cornflower Blue" and "Give Yourself To Love" come to mind. To the extent that singers/songwriters frame their songs this way, I would think they would be welcomed by people of various gender identities and preferences. That would explain why lesbians embrace the music of some women who have never presented themselves as "straight;" by not flaunting their heterosexuality in their lyrics, they, in effect, "embrace" the gay community in a way that much of "mainstream" music does not. (But, then again, what do I know?) Genie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk music is for lesbians From: Genie Date: 22 Aug 02 - 02:50 PM Forgot my footnote: *I know Greenwood's song is not popular among folkies, anyway. I just use it an illustration of a well-known (at least in the US) song that is quite unnecessarily written from a male standpoint. ("...had to start all over with just... my wife...," and "...I won't forget the men who died to give that right to me... ."). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk music is for lesbians From: katlaughing Date: 22 Aug 02 - 03:29 PM Yes, Genie, I think a lot of women love songs which break out of the traditional gender roles. I believe a lot of women who support lesbian and/or women songwriter/singers do so because the songs are usually much more inclusive, non-patriarchal. Originally they gave women something new to claim as their own, from their positive perspective. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk music is for lesbians From: Janice in NJ Date: 22 Aug 02 - 06:55 PM David Hajdu! How could you have neglected to mention Pat Humphries? Please do tell. Inquiring dykes wanna know. Even part-timers like myself. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk music is for lesbians From: GUEST Date: 23 Aug 02 - 02:48 AM Come off it Genie - Many women (gay or not) may feel excluded by lyrics that make a lot of use of words like "man" as part of their rhyme scheme
These are ADULTS - you may as well say many men cannot relate to Christianity because they are refered to as the "bride of Chirst."
That is a bunch of sexist nonsense. Poetry, allagory, metaphor and symbolism are necessary elements of lyrics and part of ADULT communication.
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk music is for lesbians From: Genie Date: 23 Aug 02 - 03:07 AM Guest (at the risk of serious thread creep, let me say that), it is one thing to use terms like "botherhood" and "the rights of man," and quite another to make references to "my wife," "sweet daddy," and "lady." I think it is only the fringes that get too bent out of shape over "...and crown Thy good with brotherhood... ," and ",,,stand beside her and guide her... ." But, as a (straight) woman, I feel awkward singing "...if I had to start all over with just my children and my wife... ." Some terms are gender specific but used in a generic sense ("brotherhood," "mankind," "chairman," etc.) and others ("daddy," "mama," "lady," "macho, macho man," etc. are not readily applicable to all humans. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk music is for lesbians From: Venthony Date: 23 Aug 02 - 12:46 PM "Adult" writers seldom use italics to replace a studied and adroit vocabulary. But God knows Genie is a liberal wing-nut. Then again, I'm a conservative Republican wing-nut. Love to all, Tony |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk music is for lesbians From: katlaughing Date: 23 Aug 02 - 01:33 PM The spoken/sung word is very powerful and it's effect cannot be discounted. The words matter to me, my daughters, my sisters, and did matter to my late mom. So, I guess I am fringe.:-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk music is for lesbians From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 23 Aug 02 - 02:07 PM Is it any wonder, my little frantic feline, that you have so much internal anger, angst, and aversion to all things practical.
How does your little garden grow?
Sincerely, |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk music is for lesbians From: Genie Date: 23 Aug 02 - 02:38 PM You're a Republican conservative wing-nut, Venthony? You mean Doug R. is not alone here |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk music is for lesbians From: katlaughing Date: 23 Aug 02 - 02:49 PM You go, Genie! Heyagarg..it's not dark, yet, whatta doin' outta the closet? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Folk music is for lesbians From: Little Hawk Date: 23 Aug 02 - 09:12 PM How do you know it really IS gargoyle, Kat??? After all, ANYONE can simply log on as a GUEST...or log out as a member and then long on as a GUEST...and carefully type the following into the little box: .gargoyle Is that not so? I think the little dot is a neat touch. Now it seems to me that this would be one of the truly big drawbacks to posting as a named GUEST for lengthy periods on Mudcat, since anyone else can pretend to be you...and post a big apology for all the nasty, critical things you have said at various times on Mudcat...then go on to lay bare your own internal angst, anger and confusion in no uncertain terms till everyone was totally creeped out. Hmmmm.... I wonder why nobody has done it? Or have they? Is .gargoyle really .gargoyle or is it someone else pretending to be .gargoyle? These are the perils of nonmembership combined with a name...in the weird little world called "Mudcat". If my computer were to stop working, it would all disappear, and I would probably go back to building models, playing the guitar, reading books... - LH |
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