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Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th?

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birdman blue 08 Jul 07 - 03:03 PM
GUEST,Jim 07 Jul 07 - 11:15 AM
GUEST,willie wonka,guest 06 Jul 07 - 06:36 PM
JohnInKansas 06 Jul 07 - 01:14 PM
GUEST,Jim 06 Jul 07 - 12:37 PM
JohnInKansas 05 Jul 07 - 09:35 PM
The Fooles Troupe 05 Jul 07 - 08:46 PM
JohnInKansas 04 Jul 07 - 08:38 PM
The Sandman 04 Jul 07 - 06:20 PM
Peace 04 Jul 07 - 06:08 PM
GUEST,Jim 04 Jul 07 - 06:05 PM
Peace 04 Jul 07 - 04:13 AM
Big Al Whittle 04 Jul 07 - 04:10 AM
Genie 26 Aug 02 - 09:45 PM
Genie 26 Aug 02 - 03:00 AM
JohnnyBGoode 26 Aug 02 - 12:15 AM
Ian Darby 26 Aug 02 - 12:13 AM
Genie 25 Aug 02 - 12:45 AM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Aug 02 - 06:19 PM
GUEST,Fred Miller 24 Aug 02 - 05:54 PM
GUEST,Fred Miller 24 Aug 02 - 02:50 PM
Mark Clark 24 Aug 02 - 11:59 AM
John Hardly 24 Aug 02 - 10:33 AM
GUEST,Fred Miller 24 Aug 02 - 10:00 AM
GUEST,boromir 24 Aug 02 - 09:41 AM
Benjamin 23 Aug 02 - 11:36 PM
C-flat 23 Aug 02 - 06:47 PM
Murray MacLeod 23 Aug 02 - 06:35 PM
Benjamin 23 Aug 02 - 05:21 PM
Boromir 23 Aug 02 - 02:37 PM
Boromir 23 Aug 02 - 02:15 PM
Benjamin 23 Aug 02 - 02:09 PM
GUEST,Boromir 23 Aug 02 - 02:04 PM
Mark Clark 23 Aug 02 - 12:43 PM
GUEST 23 Aug 02 - 12:37 PM
Murray MacLeod 23 Aug 02 - 09:03 AM
Boromir 23 Aug 02 - 08:26 AM
Boromir 23 Aug 02 - 08:22 AM
Boromir 23 Aug 02 - 08:14 AM
GUEST,Lucius 22 Aug 02 - 09:07 PM
Benjamin 22 Aug 02 - 08:23 PM
Murray MacLeod 22 Aug 02 - 06:46 PM
GUEST,boromir 22 Aug 02 - 05:33 PM
Don Firth 22 Aug 02 - 02:47 PM
Don Firth 22 Aug 02 - 02:37 PM
Mark Clark 22 Aug 02 - 02:32 PM
GUEST,Boromir 22 Aug 02 - 02:01 PM
GUEST,guest 22 Aug 02 - 02:01 PM
Don Firth 22 Aug 02 - 12:29 PM
Murray MacLeod 21 Aug 02 - 08:13 PM
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Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th?
From: birdman blue
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 03:03 PM

coming from a jazz background, I have to remark that I haven't seen so many interesting and unique versions of harmony/chord theory since before going to university theory courses back in the early 1970s. I won't begin to try and straighten-out the host of erronious assumptions, unique use of nomenclature or prejudicial slanders against the major 7 chord.... frankly, I'm not sure where I would start though I applaud the efforts of those gallant defenders of theoretical orthodoxy. My congratulations and sympathy to Mr. Firth and the others.... you tried. reading through this post was, however, a real learning experience for this new catter: "stay the hell away from discussions concerning theory" (which completely screws me because I find theory to be one of the most fascinating things about music: the order and precision that can be reduced mathematically from even the most outlandish acoustic furball of a composition.... )

bird

please don't start dissing the "13" chord, I live by 'em. (251=4736251 musical mathematics)


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Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th?
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 11:15 AM

I just googled images of Joe Venuti and the first picture was of him bowing with the stick behind the fiddle.


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Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th?
From: GUEST,willie wonka,guest
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 06:36 PM

only on full moons,and never in convents.


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Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 01:14 PM

GJim -

I've seen pictures of a number of fiddlers doing this, but I've only heard it done by a couple of unidentified players (on separate occasions) in the campground.

It generally, I think, requires either "disassembling" the bow to get sufficient slack, or in one case I believe the player just had a "spare" bow specially "haired extra long" specifically for this parlor trick.

The sound, as I recall dimly after many years, was akin to a hurdy-gurdy played badly or with a few broken keys, although if an act needs a gimmick it's a known one.

John


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Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th?
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 12:37 PM

Back to the "bowing more than two strings" topic. I've seen pictures of Joe Venuti bowing with the stick of his bow behind the fiddle and the bow hairs contacting all four strings. I've never heard him do this, though. Has anyone else?


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Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 05 Jul 07 - 09:35 PM

Fooles -

With no new post since 2002, until a few days ago, and examining the smart a** unrelated (? hard to tell sometimes) new post by weelittle that resumed the thread ...,

with the additional information that on that date I saw at least 4 other "ancient and honorable" threads brought back up by SPAM posts ...,

I don't believe there's much real "Ass-uming" involved, except as a manner of speech.

And besides, I've always figured you to be pretty much a "self-made" kinda guy, so it's nice that you recognized the reference and volunteered to be included, even if I can't take any real credit.

If you'd like I'll try to spread the word that I made ya what ya are, but I doubt anyone will believe me, since no one who know us both would think I'd be capable of inducing such ass-like consistently characteristic behaviour in another person. (Due entirely to my own generally ineffectual nature, and not denigrating your ass personal attributes in any way.)

John


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Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Jul 07 - 08:46 PM

"I assume that this thread died a natural death"

John, when you ASS-U-ME, you make an ASS out of U * ME... :-P


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Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 08:38 PM

I assume that this thread died a natural death, and someone couldn't resist one more post after a spam refresh, but after the five exceedingly astute posts that have appeared in the current era, perhaps it's not inappropriate to quote Einstein (approximating from memory):

"A good theory is as simple as possible, ... but no simpler."

A legitimate question was asked that did not receive an answer (which seemed a little rude in reading the thread now but may not really have been in the flow of debate at the time) as to how the "D-shaped bow" permits playing more than two strings simultaneously on a fiddle.

The key is that the hair on the old style bow was not tensioned by the bow. The fiddler had to wrap the hair in the fingers to provide (somewhat limited) tension; and by relaxing the tension - or by increasing the pressure against the strings - the relatively slack hair could be wrapped around the curve of the bridge to quite easily(?) contact all four strings at the same time. Played "away from the bridge" with sufficient pressure, a modern bow/fiddle can perhaps play three adjacent strings at the same time, but I haven't noticed this being done much. Only the one who knows knows.

The "arc" of the bridge also appears to have been somewhat different on fiddles of the same era, and even now "classical violinists" and "fiddlers" sometimes prefer some slight diffence in the shaping of the bridge. Some - especially the "violinists" - now have been observed to speak in denigrating terms of instruments having a "fiddle bridge" and thus not being "proper instruments." Fiddlers who use a "personally modified bridge" may reply with something that sounds like "suck dew" but an exact translation hasn't been established to my knowledge.

The "neck angle" of modern instruments is also quite significantly different than was common when the "slack bows" were used, there being no such thing1 as an "original Stradivarius" since all known instruments have been rebuilt to the "new angle." (Other surviving "notable early instruments" have generally been modified similarly.)

I don't recall any comment about whether the bridge arc amd/or neck angle specifically affect the ease of bowing multiple strings, but a detailed debate should consider the possibility.

1 There have been claims that there is one "unmodified Strad," but most experts I've read claim there is not. If one exists, the only explanation would be that "it's not a very good instrument and is not played."

John


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Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th?
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 06:20 PM

WLD,Itsagoodjob you are not a dyad,you might be mistaken for dead.


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Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th?
From: Peace
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 06:08 PM

BUT, without a C13b5b9, life is sooo droll.


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Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th?
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 06:05 PM

Grab suggested the progression C, CMa7, Am (The Mr. Bojangles run).
This progression appears in several folky songs, usually waltzes, but not always.


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Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th?
From: Peace
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 04:13 AM

Marketing, wld, marketing.


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Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 04:10 AM

If I were a chord, I would object to all these labels people kept putting on me.


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Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th?
From: Genie
Date: 26 Aug 02 - 09:45 PM

And, oh, the melody lines are the same in the third verse as in verses one and two, but the chords change from minors and major 7ths (or 9ths) to straight major key chords, thus making the tune sound different. Again, applying the "less is more" rule, wouldn't you just use the same chords every time you play the same melody?

(Of course, I realize that it is the harmony, not the melody, that changes within this song. But that's where chord variation is born.)

Genie


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Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th?
From: Genie
Date: 26 Aug 02 - 03:00 AM

In the song "My Favorite Things," the melody for the first line is the same as that of the second line. If you play the same chords for the two lines, it's musically very uninteresting. It is the use of different chords -- C major 7th instead of a simple E minor chord (in the key of G) -- that brings life to the (repeatd) melody in the second line. To me, this is an example where "Less Is More" doesn't apply. (You could use a straight C instead of Cmaj7, I guess. But play it both ways and tell me which sounds better.)


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Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th?
From: JohnnyBGoode
Date: 26 Aug 02 - 12:15 AM

Yeah, I like that one a lot, Ian.


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Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th?
From: Ian Darby
Date: 26 Aug 02 - 12:13 AM

Listen to 'Something' by George Harrison. It was worth inventing Cmaj7th for this song alone.

(It starts off C/Cmaj7th/c7th.)


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Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th?
From: Genie
Date: 25 Aug 02 - 12:45 AM

Well, like most rules, that one has lots of exceptions (especially if a "diminished" chord is considered "more" than a major chord). Personally if guitarists use just chords (as opposed to melodic runs) as background, I get awfully tired of hearing the same 3 to 5 of them all the time. Is close harmony necessarily "more" than harmony that consists of 3rds and 5ths?

Again, so much depends on the particular song you're playing/singing.


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Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Aug 02 - 06:19 PM

"Less is more" is pretty good rule. If you can manage to get by without it, you're generally better getting by without it.


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Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th?
From: GUEST,Fred Miller
Date: 24 Aug 02 - 05:54 PM

I'm sorry, Mark, everyone, I really didn't care much who said it's dark in a dog, I was trying to joke that the tone of this discussion might be a little unnecesarily pissy. But I could be wrong about that, too.


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Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th?
From: GUEST,Fred Miller
Date: 24 Aug 02 - 02:50 PM

Lesson learned, never trust a Twain impersonator. Thanks. In a few years I hope to retire and in Proust-like seclusion research the accuracy of the random bits of fluff in my head.


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Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th?
From: Mark Clark
Date: 24 Aug 02 - 11:59 AM

WebFerret turned up eighty references for the quote; I imagine Google would turn up some more. I've included a few below. Each reference returned credits Groucho Marx. But Fred, it was certainly nice of you to offer your opinion.

      - Mark


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Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th?
From: John Hardly
Date: 24 Aug 02 - 10:33 AM

to be absolutely sure that I never hit an offending chord again...

I have removed all but three strings on my guitar. I have them tuned to C, D, and G.

I promise to never play two strings simultaneously, and I will not use my left hand while playing.

...of course, I may get bored.....may have to take up drums or sumthin'.

....is snare allowed?


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Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th?
From: GUEST,Fred Miller
Date: 24 Aug 02 - 10:00 AM

Um, I think it was Mark Twain, who was sharp, who said "...inside of a dog it's too dark to read." But the same writer might also be called Samuel Clemmons in another context without being diminished--was a major humorist.


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Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th?
From: GUEST,boromir
Date: 24 Aug 02 - 09:41 AM

"I assumed this was a deliberate attempt at irony on your part ("N6 chords"?) but I now realise that it was a typo"Careful Murray, your ignorance is showing (again).


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Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th?
From: Benjamin
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 11:36 PM

typo? N6 is a short way of writing Neoploitan 6th chords which catsPhiddle brought up. That is a chord built on a flatted 2nd degree of the scale. I studied about them a couple years ago in college and forgot about them untill they were brought up.

If your just trying to be "jocular," you can try using less offensive language. It might also help if you could understand what I said in the first place instead of just telling me my words were irony or a typo.


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Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th?
From: C-flat
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 06:47 PM

Aspirin, anybody?
Cb


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Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 06:35 PM

Benjamin, I think we can resolve our misunderstanding.

The first line of your original post read
"Man, I'd forgotten all about those N6 chords"

I assumed this was a deliberate attempt at irony on your part ("N6 chords"?) but I now realise that it was a typo. Hence my response,which was in fact intended to be jocular...

But, when we get to GUEST'S post

"Diminished 7th beginning on F.

F Ab Cb Ebb(E double flat)"

I'm outta here, but fast ...

Murray


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Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th?
From: Benjamin
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 05:21 PM

Ab is the same pitch, spelled differently. Your right, but it gets much more complicated when you start studing modulation and enharmonic spellings. I won't get into that stuff now.


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Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th?
From: Boromir
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 02:37 PM

Benjamin

The last time I looked, G# was not the same as Ab. By themselves they may sound the same, but in the context of a key they are a long ways apart. As I stated previously, cord sounds just the same as chord.


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Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th?
From: Boromir
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 02:15 PM

Benjamin

"And Boromir, a diminished 7th built on B does contain an Ab, the same tone as a G#.

"

I believe I corrected myself but thank you so much anyway.


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Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th?
From: Benjamin
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 02:09 PM

Murry, could you of been a bit more kind from the begining?

And Boromir, a diminished 7th built on B does contain an Ab, the same tone as a G#.


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Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th?
From: GUEST,Boromir
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 02:04 PM

Mark

Your understanding of theory is excellant and you should make no apologies.

I take issue with very little of what you say in the context in which you say it. A 7 above any chord does refer to a minor seventh.

A 7 above the dominant (or V) chord is referred to as a dominant seventh because it is the dominant chord in the key in which you are playing. The sound of the chord is relatively the same as adding a minor seventh over the tonic or the subdominant chord (I or IV).

By adding the 7 above a chord which is not dominant you are modulating temporarily. For example if you are in the key of C and you play the following chord progression:

C D7 G7 C

The D7 is not the dominant 7th. In theory notation it be II7 over V or the dominant of the dominant. It's like being inside a nested if in programming. These are distinctions that are important to the writer and reader of music, not especially the player. It is more important for a player to feel his way through a score than to think his way through.

That is the reason any inversion of a diminished seventh chord suffices as long as it has the root in it somewhere when you are playing. However, to a writer or reader it is very important how a chord is spelled.

If you are in the key of A, the leading tone (VII) is G#. It would not be correct to have a diminished seventh chord with an Ab in it because Ab does not "lead" to A.

There is no difference in pitch between Ab and G# but they are not interchangeable in the key of A just as cord and chord are not interchangeable in a sentence.

But also remember that when we "spell' chords, they must be spelled with the key in mind. In C Major, the fully diminished chord is only accomplished by a flatted A. Without the Ab you have a "half diminished" chord.

In c minor, the fully diminished chord occurs "naturally" because the A is flatted in the key signature.

I hope I haven't confused you or bored you. I also know that you are not disparaging pedants by your comments.

I have heard the statement, "I took some music lessons until it started to affect my playing" more than a few times and it rankles me every time I hear it. Everything has its importance including music theory for composers.


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Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th?
From: Mark Clark
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 12:43 PM

On the contrary, I think an apology is probably in order. I hope I'm never too proud to apologize.

You correctly observe, and I have readilly adimited elsewhere, that I have no formal (i.e., university) education in music theory. I have studied theory in an individual lesson setting with a very experienced professional jazz guitarist and it's from that and from forty years of playing with other musicians of many stipes that I derive any (possibly flawed) knowledge I have. (N.B. This does not mean that I actually am a jazz guitarist; I'm definately not.)

Let me explain my own thought process and perhaps you will find the source of the error in my thinking.

I understand, for instance, that there is such a thing as a diminished chord separate and distinct from a diminished 7th chord. In practice however, for the sort of tunes I might play (traditional folk, blues, bluegrass, jazz) the notation “dim” (also °) always refers to a diminished 7th (the four-note chord in which each note is a minor third above the previous one).

A G#° chord (G#dim7) contains the notes G#-B-D-F. For the guitarist, by virtue of inversions, this chord may also be called B°, D° or F° because the intervals are all the same, even when crossing octaves. This would seem to suggest that there are at least four dim7 chords containing the note G#. (N.B. A pedant may prefer referring to G# as Ab to maintain the theory of using evey other note name.)

Similiarly, the notation “7” always refers to the use of the flatted 7th with respect to the root of the chord name (and without respect to any specific key). Often, this is called a dominant 7th chord even though that designation isn't strictly true unless the root of the chord is a major fifth above the tonic of some reference key.

I agree that some confusion arrises from the apparant shift in terminology used when moving the discussion from chords to scales. In a C major scale, the interval from C to Bb is commonly termed a minor 7th meaning that the 7th is flatted. The same Bb note, however, when played with a C major triad (C-E-G) is never referred to as a minor 7th. It's either called a 7th or perhaps a dominant 7th. C-7 (Cm7) would be C-Eb-G-Bb, a minor triad with a flatted 7th added.

You can see that I tend use both the terms flatted and minor to mean lowered in pitch by one semitone when speaking about scales and intervals. I understand that in an academic setting there are specific reasons for using one term or the other but outside of that setting nobody much cares.

I can appreciate what Don is talking about because I know that a formally trained classical guitarist will use the terminology of theory in a most pedantic way. That's appropriate because the classical guitarst is trained to a much wider range of music and situations than many of the rest of us. Not many classical guitarists would prefer to listen to much of the music we discuss here so I'm always grateful for the few who take the time and patience to add their insights.

That said, outside of universities and studios devoted strictly to classical music, I think my rude understanding of theory is what passes for notational communication among the vast majority of professional and amateur musicians. I also use the practice (common among working musicians) of referring to chords by number rather than name. The tonic chord of any key is a I chord, the dominant a V chord, etc. Extensions and ornamentation are often left to the creative descretion of individual musicians and relys on their experience with the genre.

      - Mark

Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside, it's too dark to read.

Groucho Marx


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Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 12:37 PM

Murray

Diminished 7th beginning on D.

D F Ab Cb

Diminished 7th beginning on F.

F Ab Cb Ebb(E double flat)


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Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 09:03 AM

Boromir, could you kindly list the notes which comprise a diminished seventh chord built on D ? Amd also, if you would be so kind, the notes which comprise a diminished seventh chord built on F ?

Murray


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Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th?
From: Boromir
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 08:26 AM

Correction. A diminished seventh chord built on B does not include a G# either.

The only diminished seventh chord that does include a G# is the one that is built on G# and includes G#, B, D, and a lowered F# (F natural).


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Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th?
From: Boromir
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 08:22 AM

By the way, Murray.

A diminished seventh chord is a diminished chord (B D F) with an added diminished seventh (G#). Diminished sevenths built on D and F do not include a G#. Any bilious matter contained in this thread has been your emesis.


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Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th?
From: Boromir
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 08:14 AM

Thank you Benjamin and Lucius.

Mark was merely mistaken and need not apologize. Murray, however, might lose the taste of crow if he admitted he was wrong.


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Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th?
From: GUEST,Lucius
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 09:07 PM

In the key of G, there is one sharp, F#. G is the tonic, and D is the dominant chord-a fifth away.

A dominant seventh chord build with D in the root position would be D, F#, A and C. Hence dominant seventh.

The F# usally resolves as all common practice dominant sevenths does by leading up to G. The C resolves downward to B--the third of a Tonic G chord.

The C does not need to be flattened, as it naturally occurs in a G diatonic scale. However the interval of D to C is a minor seventh.

A seventh chord built on the tonic G would be G, B, D, F#-- It uses the interval of a major seventh. No diatonic tones were altered in the creation of this chord.

As far as being ok to play these chords, ask Eric Satie.


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Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th?
From: Benjamin
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 08:23 PM

Actually Murry, his post makes perfect sense. He's talking about the key of G. A D7 chord in the key of G major is D F# A C. There is more than one kind of 7th out there. Maybe you shouldn't be so fiesty on a topic you weren't educated in.


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Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 06:46 PM

I find myself drawn to this thread like a dog is drawn to its vomit....

GUEST boromir, you were the one who said
In the key of G, D is the dominant chord. C is the seventh note above D.

If you meant to say C# then admit a typo and apologize to Mark. If you did in fact intend to say C, then your post makes no sense.

Murray


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Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th?
From: GUEST,boromir
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 05:33 PM

Mark Clark

In the key of G, the diatonic scale begins on G, not D. You would be correct on calling the interval between D and C a minor seventh, but it certainly is not a flatted seventh.


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Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th?
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 02:47 PM

Wait a minute, Mark. I think we're confusing "flatted" with "minor" here. "Flatted" only if it takes the seventh note above the root out of the key signature. In this case, it should be described as an interval of a "minor 7th."

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th?
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 02:37 PM

A large part of the problem is that self-taught guitarists, or guitarists who were taught by self-taught guitarist (who, in turn, were taught by….ad infinitum) use such a mish-mash of terminology that it's hard for them to communicate with each other, much less carry on a reasonable discussion with other musicians, especially those with formal training. Classical guitarists run into this all the time because they usually have a foot in both camps.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th?
From: Mark Clark
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 02:32 PM

GUEST,Boromir

In any diatonic major scale the interval between the 7th and 8th (octave) is a half step. You can test this on a keyboard playing only the white keys beginning with C. In a D7 (the dominant 7th chord in the key of G) it is indeed a C—the flatted 7th—that is played. C# is the major 7th to a D triad.

In your post you said “...C is the seventh note above D” but in fact it's the flatted 7th.

      - Mark


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Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th?
From: GUEST,Boromir
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 02:01 PM

one more time.

In the key of G, D is the dominant chord. C is the seventh note above D. Because we are in the key of G, C occurs naturally. So the seventh of the dominant is not flatted, but natural.

If we added a seventh to the tonic (G), it would be a major seventh because F is sharped within the G scale. We can flat that F# to F natural. Then it would be referred to as a flatted seventh.

We then can resolve the resulting chord (G7) to the subdominant (C) of the key. It is also possible to resolve the chord to A minor (known as a deceptive cadence). We could also resolve to an F# chord or B chord treating the minor seventh as an augmented sixth.


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Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th?
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 02:01 PM

one more time.

In the key of G, D is the dominant chord. C is the seventh note above D. Because we are in the key of G, C occurs naturally. So the seventh of the dominant is not flatted, but natural.

If we added a seventh to the tonic (G), it would be a major seventh because F is sharped within the G scale. We can flat that F# to F natural. Then it would be referred to as a flatted seventh.

We then can resolve the resulting chord (G7) to the subdominant (C) of the key. It is also possible to resolve the chord to A minor (known as a deceptive cadence). We could also resolve to an F# chord or B chord treating the minor seventh as an augmented sixth.


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Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th?
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 12:29 PM

On the question of the distinction between diminished chords and diminished 7th chords, check HERE and HERE. And there is a wealth of good information HERE. And some more HERE. If you search for "music theory" in google.com, you'll be inundated with good stuff.

The sites I've linked to are just a few of the ones available. They can provide the answers to most questions about music theory (scales, modes, intervals, chords, and the terminology that trained musicians use). They are specifically for guitarists, but the information is consistent with formal music theory. I recommend highly.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 08:13 PM

I am getting rapidly tired of this discussion. I have listened to the whole recorded output of Blind Blake enough to know the difference between a diminished chord and a triad which forms part of a dominant seventh.

A diminished chord is a chord comprising notes each separated from the next by an interval of three semitones. And it goes all the way up from low tonic to high tonic.

An augmented chord is a chord comprising notes each separated from the next by an interval of four semitones. And it goes all the way up from low tonic to high tonic.

That's it , period.

Murray


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