Help: amp advice for gigs

Subject: amp advice for gigs
From: wilco
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 11:08 AM

I need some advice. Lately, I've been asked to "organize" various performances. I have no experience with amp systems. I need to buy an amp and other equipment for these performances. Typically, these are small groups or individual performers, playing for small groups (twenty to a hundred folks). In the past, I've been comfortable with no amplification, but I guess I have to have an amp system occasionally. Any suggestions? Will one amp, with a mike stand and microphone be adequate?

Thanks!!!!!!! Wilco in Tennessee

Subject: RE: Help: amp advice for gigs
From: Fortunato
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 11:21 AM

Wilco, there's lots of info stored here. Search for PA Systems, microphones, etc., in the threads. Opinions differ, but you'll get lots of good ideas.

To get you started, you will need a small PA (Public address) mixer with 6-8 channels. A channel is an input for a microphone or instument. You will need two house speakers, that is, the speakers that project the sound to your audience. You need speaker stands for those to lift them up to reach the back of the room. An important option for your performer(s) are monitors. These (usuallly there are two) direct sound to the performer so that they may hear themselves. You of course need the cords that run from the speakers to the mixer. You will also need microphones and mike stands. No, one microphone will not do. You need one for each vocal and, most likely, one for each instrument.

What I have given you is the basics for what you have described. If this doesn't scare you off you will find lots of recommendations for PAs and mikes, etc., in the threads, or ask here. One thing, don't call 'it' an amp. An amp is an amplifier for one instrument, generally, at least here in the US. cheers, Fortunato

Subject: RE: Help: amp advice for gigs
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 05:01 AM

It all depends on the size of the room and what kind of performers you will be using the system for. If a band or performer usually use a PA they will quite possibly to use their own complete kit or at least their own Mics, Stands, and D.I. (direct input) leads. Do make sure that your mixer can handle both jack and XLR type inputs.

If you mainly want to use the kit for performers who are accustomed to performing un-amplified, then you need Sound Re-inforcement. In this case you need a system which handles middle frequencies well. Big speaker cabs with 15 or even 12 inch drivers are usually too bassey for vocalists and accoustic guitars, Bose-style speakers with multiple smaller drivers sound much better for this purpose. Bass players will often bring their own amps anyway.

The amount of power that you need will obviously depend on the size of the venue, but for Sound Re-inforcement this can be surprisingly low. Linda and I use 30w + 30w for most of our (amplified - we prefer to work without) indoor gigs, athough outdoors we need a more powerful amp and speakers, we still use the the same mixer etc though. For SR applications you need clear clean sound not power. If the audience don't notice the sound system but can hear the performers perfectly, you've got it right.

Subject: RE: Help: amp advice for gigs
From: GUEST,maryrrf
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 09:34 AM

Well, a simple but acceptable solution would be the Fender Passport 250. I don't know that much about sound systems and this one is easy to operate and comes as a complete set, including two Fender microphones. It has four actual inputs and two stereo inputs which also work for plugging in instruments with a little bit of fiddling around with the sound. I've used it for a 4 piece band (borrowing a few extra mikes). The only thing you'd need to buy that was extra would be the mike stands, speaker stands and maybe a couple of extra mikes. Also it all packs up into a carryable case (too heavy for me to carry but most guys can manage it easily). Oh and they even include your mike cables. There aren't a lot of special effects available but they do have a reverb option. I've used it in some fairly good sized venues and have found that in some cases it was much, much better than the house system. You could probably get all this, including the stands if you shop around, for around $1000 - $1100.

Subject: RE: Help: amp advice for gigs
From: RichM
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 09:43 AM

Some more questions to consider:

Are all these performances in the same venue? How big is the venue?

Or do you need to be portable for playing at different locations?
How many performers: One at a time, duets, full bands? Singers? Or players? Or both?

Last, who's paying for this? One possibility is to rent equipment each time you need it. You'll get advice from the renter, by doing this. And you'll gain experience with the equipment, if you eventually decide to buy.

Rich McCarthy

Subject: RE: Help: amp advice for gigs
From: wilco
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 01:50 PM

Thanks for the input. I've looked in the permatreads, and I got some help. Most of the time, I'll either be alone or with one other person. Occasionally, I might have a band with four or five people. We usually don't have the luxury of going-in early to "set-up a room" for sound. Most of the time, when we want amplification, we are outside, at a barbque, fishfry, festival, etc. We just "show-up and play." Is it possible to have a small amp with an omini-directional mike that "picks-up" from a wider area, rather than the unidirectional ones. I'm trying to keep my personal costs down, but I want a little amplification. First priority is a small system for just me and a partner for guitars, autoharps, dulcimers, banjos, mandolines, and harmonicas. We could put pick-ups on most or all of the insturments, which should cut-down on the need for mikes. But, as I cut down on the number of mikes, don't I have to have a channel for each insturment that is hooked to the amp?

Thanks!!!!

Wilco in Tennessee

Subject: RE: Help: amp advice for gigs
From: Sibelius
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 05:18 PM

Can I throw in a particular bugbear? Whatever system you get, it's likely to have a reverb in it somewhere. Use it like a powerful medicine: remember it's actually a poison! So small doses, and not at all unless you absolutely have to. Too often, reverb controls are used as if they were an echo generation effect, which they aren't. The reverb is there to take the flatness out of amplified sound where the characteristics of the room (carpets, upholstery etc.) deaden any natural reverb. Too much reverb will always muddy the sound and cause feedback. Too little is far better than too much. Turn it up a little as the room fills up, because human beings have the same effect on sound as the upholstery.

Monitors: I'd suggest doing without these at first, especially if you're likely to be playing as well as setting up the sound. From behind the speakers (where you should be when you're playing), you can't get a true impression of the PA sound out front, but at least you have some impression. With practice, you'll be able to judge from what you hear when you're playing, roughly how it sounds out front. If you've got monitors, you'll hear them and nothing else, but the sound from the monitors can be nothing like what's coming out of the PA, particularly with small-scale gear where you may have little or no EQ (tone controls) on the monitors. If you're happily listening to yourself through the monitor thinking how great you sound, and the out front starts to feed back, the first you'll know about it is when the audience run for the door with their hands over their ears.

To qualify all that, if you've got someone else looking after the sound while you're playing, use the monitors.

One other thing I'd suggest is, always try to give yourself at least a short sound check. You're better off starting 15 minutes late, and giving yourself half a chance to sweeten up the sound, than having to stop half way through your first song to sort out the caterwauling emanating from your speaker cabs.

And good luck; I thoroughly enjoyed learning bit by bit how to set up PA systems, and it's very satisfying when you get everything just right – which you will!

Subject: RE: Help: amp advice for gigs
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 04:22 AM

If you do want some smallish, cheap powered monitors consider using a pair of computer speakers. The ones which we often use cost about £15 and give excellent quality and more than enough power. If you use too much volume on monitors you'll get feed-back anyway.

Subject: RE: Help: amp advice for gigs
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 04:22 AM

If you do want some smallish, cheap powered monitors consider using a pair of computer speakers. The ones which we often use cost about £15 and give excellent quality and more than enough power. If you use too much volume on monitors you'll get feed-back anyway.

Subject: RE: Help: amp advice for gigs
From: GUEST,maryrrf
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 09:54 AM

Computer speakers for monitors! I have a pair of spare ones. I think I'll try that idea.

Subject: RE: Help: amp advice for gigs
From: Fortunato
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 10:39 AM

YES, WILCO YOU NEED CHANNELS FOR THE INSTRUMENTS WITH PICKUPS.

Subject: RE: Help: amp advice for gigs
From: JedMarum
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 10:54 AM

Go to the Pawn Shop (a good one, with lotsa music stuff) and buy a small Peavey PA system. You need a powered head with 8 channels (12 if the price is OK) and two speakers, each with one 15" driver and a horn. Have them turn it on , plug a mic into each channel, and listen to each speaker. You are not listening fo volume, you want to see if there is any audible distortion of break up of the sound. If a speaker is blown it will not work or it will crakle at volume - if the channels are noisey, they'll scratch and fuzzy crackle when moved ... scratchy channel pots aren't so bad, if there's only one or two channels with the problem - but you don't want lots of them ... also you don;t want that scratchy noise from the mixer when it is not being touched either.

For mics - you could insist that bands bring ther own. Mics grow legs easily - even by accident. But - you can alos buy at Pawn shops, Shure 57s. Best mic for the money. They work well (very well) they last well, and they're cheap. They also work well for just about any purpose. Get old mic stands that have all metal parts - the new plastic parts ones are meant to be replaced yearly. Get mic stand with boom necks. The Straight mic stands are just about useless. Get GOOD CABLES! Cables will kill you with replacement costs. Take CARE OF YOUR CABLES - don't twist 'em, roll them loosely and neatly with twists EVERY time after they're used. And keep your eye on 'em. People very often wlk off with 'em - and usually by accident! I've icked up cables over the years - and I don't even know from where - and I am very careful too. I've also lost a few - so watch your cables and mics.

Also - look at Ebay - if you have questions about gear come on back to this thread - we'll all help ya!

Subject: RE: Help: amp advice for gigs
From: JedMarum
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 11:00 AM

BY the way - I said buy Peavey becasue it's good stuff, made to last, there is plenty of it for sale on the used market that should be a good buy and should be in good shape.

But there are other names to look for ... spend a little more and get the newer JBL EON series stuff - good stuff, good sound, lasts a long time, easy to use ... but it aint cheap and it aint up to par with their top of the line stuff - still it is a good buy if you want to spend that money or if you can find some in your price range.

Fender PAs don't have the good sound of Peavey - but they may be adequate. They are built to last and have some good low cost gear.

For used powered mixers look at macke - good stuff, good price, built to last, lots and lots of it out there on the used market. Then you'll have to find some good, well matched speakers - used JBL (SR or MR series - 12s with a horn may be cheapest - but 15s with a horn are probably best).

Subject: RE: Help: amp advice for gigs
From: GUEST,Seamus Kennedy
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 12:43 PM

Basically, I agree with Jed. Peavey 680D powered mixer with the requisite number of channels, both high and low impedance inputs. I swear by Bose 402 speakers which can comfortably handle small to largish size rooms and outdoor gigs. 2 speakers come in their own carrying case and weigh about 35 lbs total. Easily portable and really easy set-up and breakdown. I'll use 2 pairs for bigger venues. Ultimate speaker stands -1 per speaker. For monitors, I use little Boss powered monitors each with its own tone and volume conrols. They can be mounted on mic stands or left on the floor. Mic stands, and Shure SM58 mics.The whole shooting match easily fits in the trunk of a compact car.I've bought all my equipment on E-bay, used, at great prices.

Seamus

Subject: RE: Help: amp advice for gigs
From: Blues=Life
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 08:49 PM

I've got to agree with the idea of rental units to start. Not only is the outlay small at the start, but you get to pick the brains of the expert who's renting them to you. Also, while pawn shops are great, don't expect high levels of expertise from the owner. They can tell you to the penny what it's worth, but not necessarily how to use it properly. Not their area of expertise. Find a good music store (usually a local one, but some of the folks at the big mega-stores do know their stuff) and ask for help. A reputable store will be able to advise you, and may have used equipment that may suit your needs. Almost everybody starts small, and then trades up. They need to sell those trade-ins. I'm very fortunate in that I have a great family owned store nearby, that's actually kind of huge. I can't tell you how much good used stuff I've found there, that came from trade-ins. If you're near South Carolina, try Hames Music in Gafney, SC. (And no, I have no stock in the company...a darn shame given how much of my cash they now have... but they take such good care of me, I keep buying more stuff!)

Where are you in Tennessee? Maybe I can suggest someone.

Blues

Subject: RE: Help: amp advice for gigs
From: open mike
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 09:23 PM

i use a speaker orignally meant for use as a monitor as a main speaker. It has a tri pod stand which i can set to the side and above me. Many players set their anps and speakers on the floor behind them and then they are standing in the stream of the sound... since my instrument is amplified by an internal microphone (mini-flex brand) instead of a pick-up, this can cause feed back if i stand in the wrong place - usually not a problem if the speaker is out in front of me... the yamaha has 3 plug ins--two with adjustable volume knobs and one with out. presumeably this is set up for an instrument which has its own volume adjustment avaialble...the mike stands have more positions available if they have either goose neck or boom features... also some nike stands have a "c" shaped base and can be stacked--this comes in handy at times...i wonder if tey nake a mike stand cup or drink holder?? they have pick holders, and other accessories... good luck and let us know if you learn any tricks of the trade...