is folk music elitist?

Subject: is folk music elitist?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 11:50 AM

Having just been in the Tap & Spile in Whitby I and my friends were amazed to see one room cordoned off for an exclusive singaround. A party of senior citizens (obviously visitors) were bemused by this and left to go to Rosie O'Grady's theme pub. My friends and I did not fall into the categories welcome on the notice nailed to the door of the room. Is this the shape of things to come?

Subject: RE: is folk music elitist?
From: GUEST,Eliza Carthy
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 12:42 PM

In Whitby? Aargh! I bloody well hope it isn't the shape of things to come...still, the government is doing its' best to make us as marginalised as possible, that may be an unfortunate by-product. Folk muisc is not elitist, music can't really do that, it's people that do that. Folk music is often pushed to the side or the background of things through no fault of its' own...there are people who want it to stay their special secret, but I find them in the minority. I played in the Tap and Spile once, it was very nice. I hope that exclusion zone doesn't continue there or I certainly wouldn't go again. x

Subject: RE: is folk music elitist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 12:44 PM

Folk music is frequently elitist, depending on which people you hang around with. On the other hand, so are most other organized forms of human activity. On the whole I think folk music comes off a bit less elitist than many other categories of creative art. Think about jazz, for example...

- LH

Subject: RE: is folk music elitist?
From: radriano
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 01:03 PM

It's been my experience that every group has its elitists. While folk musicians are generally more inclusive the genre does have its elitists.

Subject: RE: is folk music elitist?
From: MMario
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 01:04 PM

what were the catagories?

and given the problems with PEL's lately - perhaps it was in order to avoid legal hassles.

Subject: RE: is folk music elitist?
From: kendall
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 01:20 PM

Define elitist

Subject: RE: is folk music elitist?
From: GUEST,American Folkie
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 01:32 PM

Actually, I think you'll find that American folkies often perceive the British and Irish folkies to be elitist and at times, arrogant about subjects they deem unique to them, such as "tradition" (theirs) as opposed to music. This would also apply to definitions of what is traditional, who is a tradition bearer, and who has the "right" or "ownership" (nationalistically speaking) of the music/song/tradition.

I also find the Irish sessions in the US to follow the same elitist rules followed in Irish sessions in Ireland and Britain, so many American folkies who encounter the Irish session scene after many years on the non-Irish folk scene often perceive the sessions as elitist.

As someone pointed out, all groups do have their elite groups, and the American folk scene (ie old time, bluegrass, newgrass, Tejano/Tex Mex, Cajun, etc) most non-Irish/British American folkies do perceive the British and Irish scene as much more elitist than any of the American folk scenes.

And a side note to Eliza--I admire you very much and mean no disrespect for you, but in any discussion of elitism in English/British folk music circles, I would tend to take your perceptions of the scene with a grain of salt because you are part of the folk music elite in your community. Not because that automatically makes your perception wrong or suspect, but because you can never have an "outsiders" view of the music scene you were raised in and are an integral part of today. In other words, I would tend to view your opinion as being a bit too subjective in a discussion like this, especially because you yourself don't want to have the scene you are so much a part of viewed in that way.

Subject: RE: is folk music elitist?
From: Genie
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 01:52 PM

"Elitist folk musicians." Hmmmm. Shouldn't that phrase be in the "oxymorons" thread?

¤;-)

Subject: RE: is folk music elitist?
From: artbrooks
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 02:42 PM

As an American folkie, "GUEST.American Folkie" sounds like a troll to me.

Subject: RE: is folk music elitist?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 02:47 PM

For fuck's sake, artbrooks,

Do you really think that anyone cares what you think?

Subject: RE: is folk music elitist?
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 02:50 PM

I agree that some groups like to make folk music "their own." If you want to be picky about the standard of musicianship or singing, you should not have the session at a pub, have it at someone's house. A gathering in a public place should be welcoming to everybody.

Subject: RE: is folk music elitist?
From: Sibelius
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 03:55 PM

Looks like folk music can't win. If 'folkies' (ugly word, but it'll do) aren't inverted snobs, we're just straight snobs! There's a spectrum, isn't there? At one end, all-comers' sessions, where no-one cares a damn what you play. At the other, the strictly "no instruments" singers' sessions which crop up at festivals from time to time. I've turned up at singarounds carrying a guitar, not realising I was walking into a hardcore anorak trad. singers' session, and been met with glares far more exclusionary than any exclusion notice. They don't give you the chance to say you've only come to listen.

But isn't a festival like Whitby big enough and democratic enough to accommodate things at the extremes of the spectrum? Nailing up exclusion notices does begin to sound like musical fascism, but I wasn't there. Was it one of the advertised events, or had the participants paid to hire the room, just like any other private function?

BTW, the 'hardcore anorak' bit was tongue-in-cheek; you all know what I mean.

Subject: RE: is folk music elitist?
From: Mr Red
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 06:29 PM

As Eliza says.
but of course there are people and people. I know a singer/songwriter who deliberatly wound 'em up at an Irish sessio by singing. I mentioned this to a contact for the venue and the policy now (more recent) is based on her love of singing. The strength of folk in this country (as opposed to more sparsely populated countries) is the richness we have here.
In the UK we can vote with our feet (petrol?) and still have realistic choices down the road. I found in NZ the country and western fraternity were more open to the open stage concept because the folk world could not support peoples need and also maintain variety. I went the poets, and radio presenter route for the same reason.
My take on elitism is if they are putting in the effort to make it happen they make the rules and live by the results.

Subject: RE: is folk music elitist?
From: michaelr
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 07:36 PM

artbrooks -- what do you perceive as trollish about American Folkie's observations?

An art form can never be "elitist" but some of its practitioners can. I've found that there's a deep-seated psychological need for people to feel superior to others (one of the reasons why communism can never work), and I have certainly been guilty of condescension toward fans of music I deemed inferior (rap comes to mind). But generally, as I get older, I find that I'm less inclined to be judgmental.

Some sessions tend to be clicquish and exclusionary; if it bothers me, I just stay away.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: is folk music elitist?
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 07:53 PM

How 'bout looking at things a little differently.

The longer I have been involved with folk music, the narrower my focus has gotten. When I first started, I liked everything and was willing to listen to and play with anybody. I was like a kid in a candy shop.

These days my time and energy are limited and my musical tastes are much more specific. I must prioritize in ways that weren't necessary years ago. Thus I have become rather selective about the people I play with and the events I attend. Life is too short to listen to music I care less for and play with musicians who don't fully share my obsessions.

I am willing to admit that I am something of an elitist in other aspects of my life, but I don't consider myself an elitist about folk music.

Subject: RE: is folk music elitist?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 08:14 PM

its simple- if you don't like it-don't make a fuss!- go find another pub to join in or make your own session-me & chums do it all over the place!

Subject: RE: is folk music elitist?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 09:43 AM

Playing devil's advocate here - but I have been to sessions where people who were not very good and were kind of loud took over and monopolized things - sometimes with music that wasn't even traditional. I would submit that there's room for both - open sessions where everybody is welcome, but then again there may be times when the musicians involved want to pursue their own thing and not be sidetracked by musicians or singers that are not on the same track as they are. It might not even be a question of skill or competence, just the type or slant of music they want to play. In that case I think it's okay for them to say or put up a sign that it isn't an open session.

Subject: RE: is folk music elitist?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 10:06 AM

The music isn't elitist, but I sure am....and am not.

When I'm with a group of folks just singin' for fun, and the music is general, I'm extremely inclusive, and try to be as helpful as possible. I always remember that "Pete Seeger taught the world to sing."

When I'm listening to old-time country or Bluegrass (or participating) I want to hear it done right, and that means that the participants should KNOW what's appropriate (from substantial investment in the music) or just sit and listen. I'm a very experienced musician but I would NEVER inflict myself on an Irish tune session....simply because I don't know the music from the "inside". I'm happy to listen and learn.

Great line from (I believe) Utah Phillips: Pete Seeger taught the world how to sing.....and we'll never forgive him for it"!!

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: is folk music elitist?
From: John P
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 10:29 AM

I agree with what Phil Cooper said above. If you want to control the style or quality of the music making, why in the world would you have your session in a public place, where anyone could come in and play along? If you want to play in public and be particular about the music, go get a gig. If you want a session with your mates and don't want to invite others, use your living room.

Note to anonymous "American Folkie": You seem to be saying that Eliza Carthy shouldn't comment on the folk scene in England because she knows too much about it. Sorry, but that doesn't make any sense. You could as readily say that Rick Fielding shouldn't comment on bluegrass music because he's too involved in the scene, or that I shouldn't talk about folk music in Seattle because I've been playing around here for many years. For the record, as an American folkie, I have found Americans who want to play music from somewhere else to be, in general, the most elitist group I've tried to deal with. Irish and Old Time sessions spring to mind. I have, fo course, also found many inclusive people in those groups. Most of the English and Irish natives I have met seem more inclusive than many of the Americans who are otherwise trying to copy them.

John Peekstok

Subject: RE: is folk music elitist?
From: wilco
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 02:10 PM

I wouldn't call it elitism necessarily. It's an odd situation. And, it's kind of confusing at times. You are willing to perform publicly in a spontaneous setting, and you have to have some rules to keep the majority of the people happy. Often the problem is that some people don't recognize or respect the particular protocol for jamming. So what appears as elitism is an attempt to avoid conflict, by having defined parameters of types of music, insturmentation, number of individual performances, etc. Occasionally, you will encounter people who feel they are "too good" to mingle with the unwashed. Just ignore them, and find some people who enjoy one another. Chances are, that if you feel like they are elitists, everyone else does too.

Subject: RE: is folk music elitist?
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 03:53 PM

If the room in the Tap & Spile is elitist then the select group of individuals it caters for is very large -it has been heaving all week! Plenty of music in the other room. Lots of other sessions in Whitby- very often involving the same individuals found in the room at the Tap & Spile -so if they aren't fussed where they sing -why should you be Guest?

Subject: RE: is folk music elitist?
From: Sibelius
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 04:21 PM

Tell you what, though: the sight of E.Carthy being refused entry to a folk music session would be worth travelling to see!

Subject: RE: is folk music elitist?
From: Kim C
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 04:33 PM

Was it perhaps a private party?

Subject: RE: is folk music elitist?
From: Declan
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 10:23 AM

I'm in two minds on this one. I don't necessarily think that all sessions should necessarily be open to all comers. If a group of like minded musicians want to play music to a particular standard and get together to do that I think that's fair enough. If someone joins in insensitively, doing something completely different to the rest of the session, I'd have no problem with them being asked to stop doing it. And I don't agree that this sort of session shouldn't happen in a pub - its usually the best place for it. If I come across a session like this I'd normally either ask if it was OK to join in, and if not either stay and listen (which may be much more enjoyable than joining in a session where you're not welcome), or else go and find another one to join.

However I thought the idea of a sing-around was that it was a participative thing with everyone getting a turn to perform if they want to. So why would you want to be exclusive about something like that ?

Subject: RE: is folk music elitist?
From: GUEST,American Folkie
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 11:02 AM

John Peekstock totally misinterpreted my post, so let me clarify.

1) The original post was by a guest commenting on a session at Whitby, hence my examples were British and Irish sessions. I could just as easily have used Spanish and Iranian music sessions to illustrate the point, but it seemed more appropriate in this case to use the examples of the region of the world the original post was commenting upon.

2) As the original poster did not identify themselves and their place of residence (I assumed it wasn't a pub at Whitby), I commented on perceptions I have often heard expressed by Americans travelling for the first time to sessions in the UK and Ireland, on the off chance that the original poster was an American. Considering at least half the posters on Mudcat are American, this is the summer travel season, and the poster was commenting on sessions at a festival, I didn't think it inappropriate to interject the different ways that British and Irish sessions are often perceived by Americans without experience with them.

3) Eliza Carthy's expert opinions on British folk is most certainly welcome. I did not intent my comments to in any way attempt to be disrespectful, derisive, or dismissive. I do feel that it is impossible for members of an elite group to comment as outsiders of said group, in anything but a highly subjective way. I stand by that.

John, your post suggests to me that you were aggravated or angry at me for expressing my opinion, and suggesting that because Eliza Carthy is Eliza Carthy, that no one should disagree with her. Isn't that a pretty elitist point of view in itself? It was not my intention to anger anyone by expressing my opinion. Is there some button of yours I may have inadvertently pushed that caused you to react in such a caustic manner?

Subject: RE: is folk music elitist?
From: JedMarum
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 11:11 AM

when I used to play a lot of playground basketball around the Boston area, I knew that each park had not only its own style of play - they also had their own park rules! They guys who only played one park would develop a "comfort zone" around those park rules, and think that was the way everybody should play the game! So when I travelled from park to park - I just knew that I'd have to sort out what the park rules were (some spoken, some unspoken) and play by their rules 'cause I was the visitor.

Music and sessions are much the same. When I go to new places I try to play by the local rules - if I find 'em oppressive or uncomfortable; I move on.

Elitist?? Music never is, but there are plenty of elitists inthe music world. I do my best not to be one - and I do my best to avoid those who are.

Subject: RE: is folk music elitist?
From: GUEST,American Folkie
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 11:23 AM

The perception of elitism is down to the different perceptions of people who have experience with sessions and the unspoken rules which govern them, and those who don't have experience, and are complete newcomers.

I already agreed that the session scene in all genres of music has some groups who are very elitist, which is a problem for outsiders and newcomers to the folk music scene. Folk music, especially in the US, is usually perceived as one of the most democratic of the music genres. In my experience, British and Irish folk music scenes have become more elitist over time, just as the American folk music sessions have. We no longer seem to value the idea of "teaching the world to sing" in our sessions, and place a greater emphasis and value on our own enjoyment and the skill level of the musician.

This to me is the antithesis of what folk music was historically (ie anyone could learn to perform it). That can easily be perceived as elitist by people with little experience of folk music sessions of any genre of music (ie American old time, bluegrass, Irish, Anglo, Cajun).

Subject: RE: is folk music elitist?
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 12:19 PM

OK folks, here's an update on the controversy.

Yesterday, I paid a flying visit to Whitby festival. Having already seen this correspondence, I made a point of visiting the Tap and Spile to see if the notice mentioned above was still on the bar door. It was. I went in and spoke to the inhabitants. They explained … see below. But first, some background, for those who've never done Whitby.

During festival week, a fair few Whitby pubs have a sign in the window saying "Folkies Welcome". Many informal singarounds and music sessions take place in such venues. Nobody pays to listen, nobody is paid to play, or to MC. Any player or singer, however inexperienced or ungifted, is free to join in, and whenever there is a lull, to try and grab the attention of the company and deliver a solo performance. The quality can range from amazingly good to amazingly awful (sometimes with samples of both back to back) – but that's the price you pay for openness. And if you don't like the session you're in, then there's always another one in another bar, not too far away. That's the Wonder of Whitby, and long may it flourish.

A number of Whitby pubs – including the Tap and Spile - have more formal connections with the festival, and play host to events that are part of the advertised programme. So, it can happen that there may be a musical free-for-all going on in one room, while the room next door features an item on the official festival schedule. In one place, you can enlist in a rambunctious ensemble belting out old favourites like "The Black Velvet Band" in multi-part disharmony, while those who aren't singing converse animatedly among themselves. Next door, you can join a rather different group listening intently to an unaccompanied rendering of Child Ballad No. 99. Well, it's great to have the choice – but sometimes people are not clear about what they want, or don't know where to find it. In such cases, a polite notice on the door of the bar could be helpful.

For some years now, the front room at the T&S has hosted a singaround organised by a small group of festival regulars. Material of almost any musical genre, and performers at all levels of achievement, are welcome there. Choruses are sung lustily, but quiet songs get a fair hearing, and the gossip and banter is confined to the spaces between the songs, while people are struggling to get out to, or in from, the bar. This year they've put a notice on the door, saying that entry is restricted to "Members, Guests and Families". In point of fact this notice excludes no-one – it's just an attempt to deter a few people who want to sing nothing but old familiar chorus songs, and who talk loudly while other people sing anything that doesn't interest them. (After all there is plenty of that going on only a few yards away.)

I suspect that this notice, though harmless enough, may have given offence to a few people, and confused quite a number of others. Maybe the regulars should reconsider it for next year. But anyhow, I can also report that the singing, music and dance at Whitby remain as good as ever, and that the local publicans make a real effort to encourage it. If only this were the case everywhere.

Wassail!

Subject: RE: is folk music elitist?
From: GUEST,Guest, pattyclink
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 04:15 PM

What we have here is a failure to communicate. To most practitioners of the English language, "Members, Guests,and Families" means exactly that. Closed club, private party, stay out. You need something more like:

"Whitby Ballad Venue 2002: Thoughtful traditional singers and listeners only, please!" Or, leave the room open, but spend a few euros and have a bouncer in there escorting jerks out.

Or something like that. O'Flaherty's in New Orleans has a main rowdy pub and a Ballad room, where you are warned with tactful signs and by the doorman that the loud will be removed. It works well, despite the constant influx of unwashed humanity from all over the world which passes through there.

Subject: RE: is folk music elitist?
From: GUEST,American Folkie
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 05:08 PM

Hear, hear pattyclink! Well said. With even a minimum of forethought and action, the unspoken rules can be spoken, and the problems eliminated.

It is the unspoken rules that are the problem, as only insiders can know them and know when someone is breaking them. Outsiders have no way of knowing this. So, adherence to the "unspoken rules" or the "session etiquette" known only by insiders who refuse to share that information with newcomers, is both elitist as well as the cause of the problems.

Once everyone is on the same page, it is extremely rare that people behave inappropriately, in my experience. And it is even rarer that someone like a bouncer would have to intervene.

Subject: RE: is folk music elitist?
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 05:18 PM

Oh THAT notice! I thought that was to ensure that if the police ever caught up with anyone in the afterhours lock-in -they could claim it was a private party. That has always been my interpretation of the notice -not that there ever is an after hours lock in -of course! :0)

Subject: RE: is folk music elitist?
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 05:28 PM

*People* are elitist. The world over, no matter where you are, you can find someone sticking a note on the door saying "Keep Out".

It is not indicative of anything except the fact that *some* people do it.

And, for the flip side of the coin:

Tommy Makem...One hell of a nice guy and gracious gentleman.

Maryland's Sea Shanty Sing, where *anyone* can come and sing a song.

Irish Sessions at the Royal Mile Tavern in Wheaton. Another wonderful "come one, come all".

Another like the above in my sisters neck of the woods in Shepherdstown, W.V. at the General Store. Wonderfully fun, and very willing to play with anyone sorts.

Seamus Kennedy, who regularly brings hacks such as my band on stage with him.

Tom Lewis...another "one hell of a nice guy and gracious gentleman" type.

There's plenty of positive in the folk community. You just have to be willing to see it.

Subject: RE: is folk music elitist?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 07:16 PM

Celtic Soul, I think you may have missed the point. The question was, and still is, is folk music elitist? There was a specific case in point being offered as an example of it, which triggered the question. That example was actually occuring at the same time as this thread was discussing it. The case being offered as an example occured in a pub which was a regular location (for many years) for pub sessions as an extension of a folk festival in Britain. A "keep out" sign had been hung on a door, where apparently there had been no signs hung in years past.

One person here obviously took exception to that, and said so (though they said so anonymously, which should tell us something about how comfortable people feel discussing this issue in British folk circles, IMO). It is an oft debated issue. In the UK and Ireland, as someone has pointed out, it is perceived by some/many (depending on your own point of view) to not be an uncommon a practice at many regular sessions to exclude newcomers, sometimes intentionally, sometimes as a matter of indifference and benign neglect.

It isn't a topic that lends itself to simplistic "look on the bright side" or "love it or leave" sorts of solutions.

Subject: RE: is folk music elitist?
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 08:41 PM

I read and understood the post, Guest, and my response still stands.

I just don't see any reason why it is necessary to brand an entire genre of music (and consequently, those who play it) because of this one example, regardless of how true it is in this instance.

Blame the people who took part in it, not "folk music".

Subject: RE: is folk music elitist?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 11:58 PM

In many places, I've discovered that elitism in folk music is inversely proportional to the musical ability of the individual in question. I've had more issues with the type of person who only knows 4 chords on the guitar looking down their nose at me because I only sing, play bodhran & tin whistle. Kind of like, "When you get a real instrument, come back and join us." Wheras, the talented fiddle, mandolin, or guitar players tend to welcome anyone who has something to bring to the jam session.

pax yall

Subject: RE: is folk music elitist?
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 24 Aug 02 - 03:50 AM

Guest-it is not clear from your previous posts as to whether you made any attempt to enter the room or whether you took exception to the notice and retreated. I have been in this room many times at Moor & Coast Whitby Folk Week and New Year, don't consider myself part of a clique, don't play any instrument in public and have never been turned away or seen any evidence of others being turned away. There is never any pressure to sing, even though it is a very popular session. Yes, the people in there hae been coming for years and know each other well, but there are others, including other 'Catters who have not and were still able to join in. I hope this debate can continue until such time as they return from Whitby and are able to make comment.

Subject: RE: is folk music elitist?
From: selby
Date: 24 Aug 02 - 07:30 AM

I have been going to Whitby for many years and just returned. I personally have seen the said notice and read the explanation, if the individuals involved in the room and notice, are upset by people not singing what "they" want to hear good luck to them they are the loosers. I stood outside the room for a while with my family and talking to various people including catters and must admit that I thought it was a private function. Keith (20 years a Whitby festival goer)

Subject: RE: is folk music elitist?
From: smallpiper
Date: 24 Aug 02 - 12:54 PM

I also thought it was a private function - which I guess it essentially was - and that was fine by me. There was plenty of other things going on - lets face it, it was really difficult to find a pub that didn't have some kind of session on (other than the trendy neon lit variety who sell plastic beer and play loud pop music). In fact in the garden of the Plough you could have 3 or 4 different sessions going on within feet of eachother.

It was a fantastic week - to those who wern't there book now for next year.

Subject: RE: is folk music elitist?
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 24 Aug 02 - 01:45 PM

Come on John -I saw you in the trendy neon lit pub drinking plastic beer!!!

Subject: RE: is folk music elitist?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 24 Aug 02 - 02:29 PM

Having lost my voice in an open pub session (noisy and smoky) I appreciated finding a quiet, well-run singaround in the Tap & Spile. I'm not aware that there are other pubs where you can do this in the evening (apart from Mo and Jo's marathon in the Plough). The Tap session isn't exclusive but it gets very crowded (not enough room for all those who'd like to sing, let alone a bouncer). Any other nominations for next year?

Subject: RE: is folk music elitist?
From: smallpiper
Date: 24 Aug 02 - 04:48 PM

What a disgracefull slight on my character me drink plastic beer and be seen in any way (other than very dead) in a neon lit trendy pub! I was however in the tap and the plough and the ship and the endeavour and the fleece but I never madde it to the middle earth I will make that a priority for next year.

Subject: RE: is folk music elitist?
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Aug 02 - 05:53 PM

well, it is sad but true, that in order for a group of people to establish a gathering and keep it from being dragged down to a general brawl by those with little awareness of taste and appropriateness, it is sometimes necessary to be exclusionist.

This in no way says **ANYTHING** about "Folk Music"...just about gatherings. I have attended both types, and will again. I know a few fairly good and knowlegable singers/musicians whom I dread seeing arrive, because they tend to 'take over' and impress their 'aura' on a group...and I know folks who can't sing/play and do anyway, just because the session/group seems to be 'open'. And I know good folks who can pay attention and participate in any group they happen to be around, either by leading or following...whatever is appropriate.

Let's face it...you can't win...you either make it 'open' and live with it, or you have 'some' restrictions and suffer the glares of thew excluded..*shrug*....I have done both...and as I said...will do both again.

Subject: RE: is folk music elitist?
From: Willa
Date: 24 Aug 02 - 06:20 PM

Hi, Mike, your explanation was very clear, and saved me a job. I saw the same notice last year and was rather puzzled, but was welcomed in when I queried it. I went in to the room several times this week, and saw many different visitors, including some American 'catters.The only reason why I didn't spend more time in there was that it was very crowded and hot; I simply moved to the main bar.

Subject: RE: is folk music elitist?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Aug 02 - 06:39 PM

Who would be excluded by "members guests and families" anyway? And who would do the excluding?

This year I never got round to singing in the Tap and Spile, but not because of any notice - there's are so many other places in Whitby in Folk Week to sing and make music I never got round to it. The whole town in effect is one massive multi-facetted session. (And the beer is cheaper in the Plough...)

I was chatting to someone about the Public Entertainment Licence situation, and they commented that if the councillors were ever to start coming down heavy on enforcing that, they'd probably end up floating in the harbour, and it'd be the locals who saw to that.

Subject: RE: is folk music elitist?
From: GUEST,Gurney
Date: 25 Aug 02 - 06:06 AM

Never seen an elitist folk-club or festival, everyone seems welcome and is politely (at least) listened to. There are groups and sessions who only want to hear a particular genre, so it pays to wait until you know what is going on before strutting your stuff. I have been told "this is a guitar-free zone" by anoraks. Fair enough, and we had a quiet and memorable session of ballads ranging from sweet to risque. Diversification rules OK. Wassail.

Subject: RE: is folk music elitist?
From: The Shambles
Date: 25 Aug 02 - 07:29 AM

Are Sessions Elitist?

Subject: RE: is folk music elitist?
From: selby
Date: 26 Aug 02 - 04:31 AM

Are these 2 different threads? I suspect so Keith

Subject: RE: is folk music elitist?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Aug 02 - 09:56 AM

This one began in reference to a specific instance regarding a singing session which occurred at Whitby. The other thread is a specific discussion of sessions in general.

Subject: RE: is folk music elitist?
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 26 Aug 02 - 12:25 PM

Pattyclink, where is the Ballad room in O'Flaherty's? I played a few tunes there back in June, with a grand little band run by a hot-shot fiddler called Bonnie, but that was in the corner of the main bar. They were very welcoming, and let me sit in before they knew I wouldn't ruin their sound. The fact that we clicked (or is it cliqued?!) just raised everyones' game, and we played an hour over time. It wasn't elitist, but it was bloody good!

Skipjack

Subject: RE: is folk music elitist?
From: GUEST,HC, minus the cookie
Date: 27 Aug 02 - 09:22 AM

I have read the foregoing conversations, opinions and attitudes. IMHO, let us deal with this simply. Is folk music elitist? No.

Thank you and have a nice trip.

HC ;D