Origins: When Jones's Ale was New

Subject: RE: Origins: When Jones' Ale Was New
From: RTim
Date: 25 Feb 17 - 08:52 AM

From 1594...........!!

https://www.fresnostate.edu/folklore/ballads/Doe168.html

Tim Radford

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When Jones's Ale Was New

DESCRIPTION: Stories from Jones's Bar. Various drinkers come in, each with his tale or his unruly behavior or his demand. Most are hard workers whose burdens are relieved by the ale.
AUTHOR: unknown
EARLIEST DATE: 1594 (stationer's register)
KEYWORDS: drink nonballad landlord ritual
FOUND IN: US(Ap,MA) Britain(England(All),Scotland) Australia
REFERENCES (18 citations):
Doerflinger, pp. 168-169, "When Johnson's Ale Was New" (1 text, 1 tune)
Ford-Vagabond, pp. 273-277, "When John's Ale Was New" (1 text, 1 tune)
GreigDuncan3 561, "When Jones' Ale Was New" (1 fragment, 1 tune)
Williams-Thames, pp. 276-278, "When Joan's Ale Was New" (1 text) (also Wiltshire-WSRO Wt 507)
Wiltshire-WSRO Ox 243, "When Joan's Ale Was New" (1 text)
Copper-SoBreeze, pp. 284-285, "Four Jolly Fellows" (1 text, 1 tune)
Hamer-Green, pp. 14-15, "When Jones' Ale Was New" (1 text, 1 tune)
CopperSeason, pp. 286-287, "When Jones's Ale Was New" (1 text, 1 tune)
Kennedy 287, "When Jones's Ale Was New" (1 text, 1 tune)
Reeves-Sharp 50, "Joan's Ale Was New" (1 text)
Palmer-ECS, #117, "When Jone's Ale Was New" (1 text, 1 tune)
Dixon-Peasantry, Song #22, pp. 206-208,249, "Joan's Ale was New" (1 text)
Bell-Combined, pp. 417-419, "Joan's Ale Was New" (1 text)
Combs/Wilgus 166, pp. 132-133, "The Jovial Tinker (Joan's Ale is Good)" (1 text -- a heavily modified version with a floating first verse and a final verse that may imply a Civil War setting)
Paterson/Fahey/Seal, pp. 245-248, "When Jones's Ale Was New" (1 text plus an excerpt from a British broadside)
Silber-FSWB, p. 231, "Johnson's Ale" (1 text)
BBI, ZN2502, "There was a jovial Tinker"
DT, JONESALE JONESAL2 JONESAL3
Roud #139
RECORDINGS:
Bob & Ron Copper, "The Jovial Tradesman" (on LomaxCD1700); "The Jovial Tradesman" (on FSB3)
Fred Jordan, "When Jones's Ale Was New" (on Voice13)
John M. (Sailor Dad) Hunt, "When Jones's Ale Was New" (AFS, 1941; on LC27)
A. L. Lloyd, "When Johnson's Ale Was New" (on Lloyd12)
BROADSIDES:
Bodleian, Douce Ballads 1(105b), "Joan's Ale is New"["Jones" in the text], T. Vere (London), 1644-1680; also Douce Ballads 1(99b), "Joan's Ale is New"["Jones" in the text]; Harding B 28(139), "Joan's Ale"["Joan's" in the text]; Harding B 11(652), "When John's Ale Was New"; Harding B 16(336b), "Joan's Ale Was New"["Joan's" in the text]; 2806 c.18(169), "Joan's Ale is New"["Joan's" in the text]
Murray, Mu23-y2:014, "When John's Ale was New," Poet's Box (Glasgow), 19C
CROSS-REFERENCES:
cf. "The Young Man Who Travelled Up and Down"
ALTERNATE TITLES:
Jone's ale is newe
When John's Sail Was New
NOTES [20 words]: The song was sung by the "jolly boys" (pace-eggers) in Overton, Lancs, as part of their Easter house-to-house ritual. - PJS
Last updated in version 5.0
File: Doe168

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Subject: Origins: When Jones Ale Was New
From: GUEST,Jack
Date: 25 Feb 17 - 08:49 AM

How old is the song When Jones Ale Was New? Does anyone w=know when it was first collected. Frank Jones Brewery was established in Portsmouth, NH in 1889 and grew to be maybe the world's largest brewery. I've always wondered if the song could refer to the ale that Frank Jones brewed.

Jack

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Jones's Ale was New
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 10 Feb 17 - 07:37 AM

brilliant.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Jones's Ale was New
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 17 - 07:21 AM

Tother blacsksheep. Two new verses for the 21st century (will be on forthcoming CD by Two Black Sheep and a Stallion "The Last of the Careless Men")
The next to come in was a banker
And everyone cried,"What a w_____!"
Everyone cried,"What a w_____! for to join in a jovial crew.
He said,"I'll lend you a fiver.
We said, "You're teasing."
He said, "Just give me another round of quantative easing.
And I'll show you next, who I'll be squeezing!"
When Jones'...."
The next to come in was an MP
Whose purse was surprisingly empty
Whose purse was surprisingly empty, for to join in a jovial crew.
He said,"Just give me some expenses for my duck house, moat and fences. And forgive all my previous offences,
And I'll soon bring all you plebs to your senses!
When Jones'...."

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Jones's Ale was New
From: Musket
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 05:18 AM

Too true. My Dad was called John, or Jack as he was known. I had a brother called John who sadly died before I was born, and they couldn't call me John, hence Ian.

In a similar fashion, I called our second son Sean.





Catholic family near us started calling theirs by the saints. Their John grew up stable enough but that fecking Pancake.......



With apologies to every pub bore who thought of a joke.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Jones's Ale was New
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 04:58 AM

Joan is, of course, one of the female variants of John; as is Ian a Northern British one...

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Jones's Ale was New
From: Musket
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 04:42 AM

Subjective.

I'd been singing it for a year or more before I knew it was Jones's in the first place. I had only heard it as Stones's.

A the last person said, living tradition.......

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Jones's Ale was New
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Apr 14 - 05:30 PM

Nobody has mentioned that in D'Urfey's Pills To Purge Melancholy, this is called "Joan's Ale Was New"; according to some, as a ref to the fact that Oliver Cromwell's wife's name was Joan, which seems to me probably a bit of post-hoc 'folk derivation'. But certainly, SFAICS, "Joan's Ale" could be an earlier usage for the title & lyric than the now much more familiar "Jones's".

~M~

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Jones's Ale was New
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 22 Apr 14 - 02:32 PM

Chorus singing certainly can't be relied on these days. I was in my local FC the night John Kelly did Shallow Brown as part of his set. As refrains go, it's not what you could call demanding. Me and one other person joined in. I suspect that anywhere with a stage and chairs in rows is likely to be pretty dead for chorus singing, unless the singer really works the audience (Come on, give it a try - Shallow, oh Shallow Brown...)

I love Jones's Ale, not least because I heard it for the first time at my local singaround, sung (or rather led) by a guy who'd been in the main part of the pub and wandered in. My version is, accordingly, collected from This Bloke Who Wandered In, further processed by being sung all the way home, and updated a bit after googling the next day. I only mention this because it's ended up sounding nothing like the Coppers' version, which I guess has a certain canonicity. People still join in when I do it, though - at least, in places where people do join in.

In terms of verses, personally I sing the Dyer, the Mason (interesting hints of atheism in that verse) and the Soldier, followed on a good night by the Folkie:

Now the last to come in was a folkie
With a voice so wheezy and croaky
And his singing was really in no key
All to join in that jovial crew
And he sang them a song from the days of yore
With some extra words he'd added the day before
It's the living tradition, boys, say no more...

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Jones's Ale was New
From: Musket
Date: 22 Apr 14 - 01:56 PM

Now then... This song takes me back.....

The version I used to sing, as learned from Fred Foster, a singer I knew from the clubs when I was a teenager, included this little nugget.

The next to come in was Zsa Zsa Gabor
She was America's finest.   actress
She was America's finest actress as she lay down on the floor.
The landlord he said "get up me dear!
Don't you know you'll get no business in here?
For every man Jack of 'em's a little bit queer.

When Jones's ale etc.



In addition, to keep in with the local Sheffield brew, we tended to sing it as Stones's Ale. (Pronounced Stornzes, in Sheffield fashion...)

Snag is, many folk clubs now, getting a roof raising harmony inducing chorus song going, it doesn't seem to do it like it used to.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Jones's Ale was New
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Apr 14 - 01:13 PM

Not quite, Reinhard. That Net version contains some gibberish lines.

Bat Goddess, I learned the song from Lloyd's album too:


There were six jolly tradesmen
Come rambling over the hill,
Come rambling over the hill, my boys,
For they were a cheerful crew.
They all set down for to be merry.
They called a bottles of wine or sherry.
"You're welcome over the hill," says Nellie,
When Johnson's ale was new.

The first come in was a soldier
And no captain ever looked bolder
His gun on his right shoulder,
His good broadsword he drew.
He said he'd fight with all his might
Before old England should be drunk dry;
And so they spent a rowdy night,
When Johnson's ale was new.

The next come in was a hatter,
And he began to chatter;
He asked what was the matter
Among the jovial crew.
He dashed his hat unto the ground,
And he flung the landlord half a crown:
And the company drank his health all round,
When Johnson's Ale was new

Then in came a jolly mason,
His hammer to put a face on.
No man could be more decent
Among the jovial crew.
He dashed his trowel against the wall,
And he wished every church and steeple might fall,
So there would be work for masons all,
When Johnson's ale was new.

The last came a ragman wary,
His ragbag he did carry,
And he was already merry
Among the jovial crew.
While he was kissing and squeezing the lasses,
They burnt his ragbag all to ashes
When Johnson's ale was new, my boys,
When Johnson's ale was new.

The ale was always improving,
And nobody thought of moving.
The longer they sat boozing,
The greater friends they grew.
So rowdily they drunk about
Until the ale it had all run out;
And they asked old Johnson to give 'em a shout,
When he had brewed anew.

Lloyd says "six," but only sings about four. Maybe a couple of stanzas were edited out for reasons of space.

I'd expect the ragman to be "weary," not "wary," but that's what ot sounds like.

My personal version has "They all got drunk as bloody jackasses," along with stanzas about a tinker and a sailor.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Jones's Ale was New
From: Reinhard
Date: 22 Apr 14 - 11:49 AM

Linn, these are A.L. Lloyd's words from English Drinking Songs:

There were six jolly tradesmen come ramblin over the hill.
Come ramblin over the hill, my boys, for they were a cheerful crew.
They all sat down for to be merry;
They called for a bottle of wine or sherry.
"You're welcome over the hills," says Nelly,
When Johnson's ale was new.

The first come in was a soldier and no captain ever looked bolder.
His gun on his right shoulder, his good broad-sword he drew.
He said he'd fight with all his might
Before old England should be drunk dry.
And so they spent a rowdy night
When Johnson's ale was new.

The next come in was a hatter and he began to chatter.
He asked what was the matter among the jovial crew.
He dashed his hat unto the ground
And he flung the landlord off his crown.
And the company drank his health around
When Johnson's ale was new.

Then in come a jolly mason his hammer to put a face on,
No man could be more decent among the jovial crew.
He dashed his trowel against the wall
And he wished every church and steeple would fall,
So there would be work for masons all
When Johnson's ale was new.

The last come in was a ragman weary, his ragbag he did carry,
And he was a-rightly merry among the jovial crew.
While he was kissin' and squeezin' the lasses
They burned his ragbag all to ashes,
When Johnson's ale was new, my boys,
When Johnson's ale was new

The ale was always improvin' and nobody thought of movin'.
The longer they sat boozin' the greater prince they grew.
So rowdily they drunk a bill up
Until the ale had all run out,
And they asked old Johnson to give 'em a shout
When he had brewed anew.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Jones's Ale was New
From: GUEST,Stephen
Date: 22 Apr 14 - 08:51 AM

Anyone got the chords for playing this?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Jones's Ale was New
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 25 Jan 14 - 05:13 PM

Well, actually, specifically I'm looking for A.L. Lloyd's words to "When Johnson's Ale Was New" from the 1956 Riverside LP "English Drinking Songs"...which is where Tom (Curmudgeon) learned it.

I've been learning a lot of Tom's songs to carry them on in our circle at least. Tom got most of his early (1960s-1970s) repertoire from LPs of Bert Lloyd and Ewan MacColl -- when Tom had expressed an interest in English folk music his father went out and bought him two albums, Lloyd's and MacColl's, and Tom was off and running...

I'm sure I have the LP in our collection, but my turntable is buried. I'm not sure if I have a tape of Tom singing it, but I still hear his voice loudly in my memory -- just not accurately enough to wrap my brain around all the lyrics. The thing is, Tom really hadn't sung it often in the past ten or fifteen years or so before he lost his voice to vocal cord cancer. I just know that none of the lyrics I've found in the DT or googled are what Tom sang.

Can anyone help me out?

Linn

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Jones's Ale was New
From: Mr Happy
Date: 28 May 08 - 07:18 AM

Knew most've 'em - remnants at Chester FF in good voice on Monday night just gone!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Jones's Ale was New
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 28 May 08 - 07:15 AM

Trevor Cooper - that rings a bell. Did you know them all Mr Happy?

I seem to remember Trevor went to Anglsey to run a Golf Course. Does that sound right?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Jones's Ale was New
From: Mr Happy
Date: 28 May 08 - 06:49 AM

Trevor Cooper

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Jones's Ale was New
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 28 May 08 - 03:18 AM

Phil,

it seems like a brilliant example of the living tradition - a great song to which people keep adding bits. Much enjoyed at the Beech last time. It seems to have a hell of a note range, I always find myself running out of notes around Jones's in the chorus then breath a bit further on. I think we need more of these grand chorus songs at the Beech - I seem to remember you "Martin said to his man" nearly took the roof off at the first Singaround.

I cannot let this thread go without mentioning one of the best singers clubs ever - Jones's Ale in Chester -from around 1968 to around mid 1980s I think, before evolving in to Edgar's Eight and other Singers Clubs to this day?

Started by Trevor (?), Dave Jenkins, Mike Jenkins and others great, great club, good singers, good nights of song.

Anybody else remember?

Subject: When When Jones's Ale was New was new
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 27 May 08 - 06:04 PM

When did the "over the hill" line come in, and the "pints of ale and bottles of sherry"? Pavane, upthread, records a C19 version which begins with two tradesmen who

called for a bottle of sherry
That over it they might be merry

but the idea of ordering bottles of sherry, plural, seems like a more recent adaptation/garbling. There don't seem to be any hills in the older versions, either.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Jones's Ale Was New
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 May 06 - 07:50 AM

You'd definitely be in Dutch then, boyo!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Jones's Ale Was New
From: pavane
Date: 26 May 06 - 09:23 AM

I hope no-one here in Amsterdam finds out I posted the verse about the Dutchman!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Jones's Ale Was New
From: Charley Noble
Date: 26 May 06 - 09:15 AM

Very gratifying to see all these new verses!

I was also pleased to find that Sailor Dad Hunt's recording is now readily available on CD; it's a real treasure.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Jones's Ale Was New
From: Artful Codger
Date: 25 May 06 - 10:28 PM

Here are a few new verses I wrote to fill out Sailor Dad Hunt's version:

The next to come in was a reckoner, he was a flirtatious beckoner;
The ladies complied to his beckoning and bedecked our jovial crew.
He assessed their gifts, he totted their talents,
Upon his knees two maids he would balance
While downing his ale with the greatest non-chalance (&c.)

A blacksmith joined us at the rail, his brawny arms all tanned and bare,
And with his pint of Jones's ale he had no fear or care.
His laughter poured free like Jone's tap;
He pounded the table and slapped his cap
And spilt his beer all over his lap (&c.)

The next to come in was a weaver, sporting a fine hat of beaver,
And none was a greater deceiver among this disrep'yable crew
He wove us tales of feats and of wonders,
And when he got rollng his voice would thunder:
The glasses would shake and then burst asunder! (&c.)

For the record, the "his brawny arms...fear or care" bit of the blacksmith verse mostly came from another trad version. To finish the song, I imported a tribute to the pub staff from the same source, making minor tweaks and adding a fifth line:

Now here's to Jones, our landlord, a jovial, hon'rable man is he
Likewise his daughter, a buxom lass, who joins in harmony
We wish them happiness and good will
While our pots and glasses they do fill
Here's hoping they never stop brewing this swill (&c.)

Be-sottedly,
The Artful Codger

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Jones's Ale was New
From: Artful Codger
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 02:28 PM

More a corruption, Mr Happy. Originally it was "When Joan's[/Jone's] ale was[/is] new". And NOT to be confused with Watkin's ale! Hope that clears it up for ya.

Facetiously yours, AC

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Jones's Ale was New
From: GUEST,Andy
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 10:23 AM

Sorry about the above cock-up, but here's a comic verse that a mate of mine sings

And the next to come in was a juggler
And he was no poor struggler
And he was no poor struggler
For to join the jovial crew
He'd played in the clubs and in the music halls
He'd done encores and curtain calls
And the Queen once autographed one of his balls
When Jones' ale etc etc

Regards    Andy

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Jones's Ale was New
From: GUEST,Andy
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 10:14 AM

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Jones's Ale was New
From: Mr Happy
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 06:22 AM

'When Jones's ale was new, my boys,
When Jones's ale was new.'

don't understand these lines - is it a translation?

Subject: Lyr Add: WHEN JONES'S ALE WAS NEW
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 09:13 PM

Q wrote:
Who did the version that has the chorus:

When the landlord's daughter, she came in,
And we kissed those rosy cheeks again,
We all sat down and then we'd sing;
When Jones' Ale was new, me boys,
When Jones' Ale was new.

This is the chorus of the version sung by John M. "Sailor Dad" Hunt of Marion, Va., on the The Library of Congress Archive of Folk Culture collection American Sea Songs and Shanties (track 12, originally recorded in 1941). The introduction on the recording says that Sailor Dad was to sing this shortly thereafter for President Roosevelt and top members of the armed forces.

Because this version matches your citation more closely (which is to say, exactly except for the possessive formation), and a chorus is more likely to be remembered than a normal verse, Hunt is more likely than Oscar Brand to be your source. The two versions are at best distant relations; in fact, Brand's version differs markedly (suspiciously?) in both form and content from all other versions cited.

The text of Hunt's version follows.


WHEN JONES'S ALE WAS NEW

There was six jovial tradesmen,
They all sat down to drinking,
For they were jolly good fellows,
And enjoyed their drinking, too.
They sat themselves down to be merry,
For everyone was gay and jolly,
"You're welcome as the hills," says Molly,
When Jones's ale was new, my boys,
When Jones's ale was new.

Chorus: When the landlord's daughter she came in,
And we kissed those rosy cheeks again,
We all sat down and then we'd sing, [rap rap-rap]*
When Jones's ale was new, my boys,
When Jones's ale was new.

Now the first to come in was a soldier,
With his knapsack over his shoulder,
For none could be more bolder,
And his long broadsword he drew;
He swore every man should spend a pound,
And they should treat all hands around,
And he jolly well drank their healths all 'round
When Jones's ale was new, my boys,
When Jones's ale was new.

Now the next to come in was a sailor,
With his marlinspike and his sheaver,
For none could be more clever
Among this jovial crew;
He called the landlord into the place,
And said it was time to splice the main brace,
And if he didn't he'd wreck the place
When Jones's ale was new, my boys,
When Jones's ale was new.

Now the next to come in was a tinker,
And he was a jolly beer-drinker,
And he was a jolly beer-drinker
Among this jovial crew;
He mended pots, he mended kettles,
His tinker's tools were made of good metals,
Good lord, how his hammer and nails would rattle
When Jones's ale was new, my boys,
When Jones's ale was new.

The next to come in was a roaming man,
Who ground the farmer's wheat at the old mill dam,
Who could drink more beer than Joe McCann,
Who was one of the jovial crew;
He would whistle and sing the whole day long,
And always singing a merry old song,
And at night he'd join this jovial throng
When Jones's ale was new, my boys,
When Jones's ale was new.

Now the last to come in was a ragman,
With his ragbag over his shoulder,
And none could be more bolder
Among this jovial crew;
They called for pots, they called for glasses,
They all got drunk like old jackasses,
And they burnt the old ragman's bag to ashes
When Jones's ale was new, my boys,
When Jones's ale was new.

*For these syncopated raps, imagine sailors banging their flagons in unison on the counter.

I should also add that Hunt freely added beats to the beginning and end of phrases, which turns out quite effective for this song, and gives it a more seaman-like (or drunken) swagger.

But what about the sixth tradesman? you might be asking. What do you think prompted me to seek out this thread so belatedly? Even though everyone's probably so blotto by the end they're seeing twelve tradesmen, it's these little things that just niggle at us pedants...

BTW, what happened to the MIDIs for the DigiTrad versions?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Jones's Ale was New
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 14 May 04 - 07:12 AM

See you this weekend gorgeous


8-)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Jones's Ale was New
From: Schantieman
Date: 13 May 04 - 07:21 AM

I shall refrain from any coarse comments about name and nature!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Jones's Ale was New
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 12 May 04 - 01:09 PM

Yes Kitty that sounds like the chap. Very tall and a deep strong voice. Comes from oop north somewhere.

Sal

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Jones's Ale was New
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 08 May 04 - 02:41 PM

Ms Lemon

Interestingly phrased post you made. Presumably refers to tall guy called Dick, sings bass, sang with Mick Ryan in Cantorus? A lot better than many of the singers you'd hear in a rugby club?

Kitty

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Jones's Ale was New
From: pavane
Date: 07 May 04 - 04:55 PM

Or between the Knees & the chin....

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Jones's Ale was New
From: Leadfingers
Date: 07 May 04 - 01:24 PM

The last to come in was a soldier
With his firlock over his shoulder
And no man could be bolder
To join in that jovial crew
Then the landlords daughter she came
And he kissed her twixt the nose and the chin
And the pints of Ale came rolling in
When Jones' ale was new my boys

Subject: When Jones' Ale was new
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 07 May 04 - 07:45 AM

Big Dick was singing this loudly in the rugby club at Upton Festival. He was singing it to a walking/dance step rhythm and it sounded brilliant. He said John Kirkpatrick does it this way. Try it, it's good.

Sal

---

I moved this message here from another thread on the same topic.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Jones's Ale was New
From: Rasener
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 02:41 AM

The first time I heard that song was about 38 years ago.
At a folk club in Kingswinford (West Midlands). The Folk Group that ran the club was called the Puritans.
They had invited a young blonde curly haired singer as the main artist for the night. It was Martin Wyndham Reid and he sung it.
I won the LP of his, in the raffle, and that number was on it.
The LP has long gone, but I think i might still have a copy of it on one of my old cassettes. I will have to try and dig it out.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Jones's Ale was New
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 04:36 PM

Q-

You may be thinking of the version Oscar Brand had on his classic recording of drinking songs which has a different structure than what we've been posting above:

The landlord's daughter she came in,
We kissed her ruby lips with gin,
When Johnson's Ale was new, me boys,
When Johnson's Ale was new!

She said she was good as the best of us,
And she drank more ale then the rest of us,
When Johnson's Ale was new, me boys,
When Johnson's Ale was new!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Jones's Ale was New
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 04:06 PM

Who did the version that has the chorus:

When the landlord's daughter, she came in,
And we kissed those rosy cheeks again,
We all sat down and then we'd sing;
When Jones' Ale was new, me boys,
When Jones' Ale was new.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Jones's Ale was New
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Apr 03 - 05:58 PM

Just notice that I screwed up one of my new verses up above which should run:

The next came in was a sock troll,
Whose dress was exceedingly droll,
Whose dress was exceedingly droll,
When he joined with the jovial crew;
For he was attired in socks he'd snatched,
Argyle, stripped, and some was patched,
And not a single one did match...

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Jones's Ale was New
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Oct 02 - 03:24 PM

Pavanne :-
Water rhyming with Hatter may indicate a North-East origin for this version?
Why?
Down here in the jolly south water DOES rhyme with hatter (pronounced *hawter* of course ;-)
And *ace* is what sank the Titanic, don't yer know!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Jones's Ale was New
From: Mr Happy
Date: 04 Oct 02 - 04:21 AM

there's an error in one of the 'peculier ale' verses i posted at the end of aug 02.

here it is corrected:

And the next to come in was the knacker,
And no man could be slacker,
And no man could be slacker.
*There was nothing he wouldn't not do.
He flung his old hat upon the shelf.
He said, "You must keep all your beasts in good health,
For I've no intention of knack'ring myself,"
When Peculiar Ale was new, me boys,
When Peculiar Ale was new.


the line i've asterisked should say 'there was nothing he wouldn't NOT do'

cheers,

mr h

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Joneses' Ale was New
From: Charley Noble
Date: 31 Aug 02 - 02:33 PM

Then there was the verse with the cunning linguist, composed by a linguist at Michigan State University, which should probably be reserved for mature ears (or is it immature ears?) only:

...

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Joneses' Ale was New
From: Leadfingers
Date: 31 Aug 02 - 11:05 AM

My local (very fine) traditional singing friends won't let me do the sixth verse--

The last to come in was a lisper
Who said to them all in whisper,
Who said to them all in a whisper,
"Can I join in your jovial crew?"
Then he threw his pith helmet upon the ground,
And everybody gathered around,
And when he put it back on, he was bloody near drowned
When Jones' ale was new.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Joneses' Ale was New
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 31 Aug 02 - 09:47 AM

If he stuck, the beer was ok; if he didn't, it had been watered; at any rate that's how I remember it, though I expect there are variants!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Joneses' Ale was New
From: pavane
Date: 31 Aug 02 - 03:02 AM

Is that Peculiar or Peculier? I seem to remember a tale about the traditioanl ale-tester in leather trousers, who sat in a pool of beer. If he stuck to the table, it wasn't fully fermented, as it still had sugar?

Subject: Lyr Add: PECULIER / PECULIAR ALE / (Kipper Family)
From: Mr Happy
Date: 30 Aug 02 - 06:01 PM

PECULIAR ALE
(The Kipper Family)

The first to come in was the sexton,
Who said, "I'm as good as the next man."
He said, "I'm as good as the next man,"
And he's one of our miserable crew.
Normally we would have bickered,
But all we did was sit and snickered,
For we knew that the next man was the vicar,
When Peculiar Ale was new, me boys,
When Peculiar Ale was new.

Now the next to come in was the mason,
All dressed in his funny old apron.
He was dressed in his funny old apron,
And he had a peculiar tattoo.
His trouser was rolled up to the knee.
His breast was bare. "Oh, woe!" said he.
"You try cutting stone dressed up like me."
When Peculiar Ale was new, me boys,
When Peculiar Ale was new.

The next to come in was the ostler,
A born again Pentecostler,
A born again Pentecostler,
Who was short of a marble or two.
A pint of whisky down he flung.
"I'm filled with spirit now," he sung,
And then he started to speak in tongues,
When Peculiar Ale was new, me boys,
When Peculiar Ale was new.

And the next to come in was the knacker,
And no man could be slacker,
And no man could be slacker.
There was nothing he wouldn't do.
He flung his old hat upon the shelf.
He said, "You must keep all your beasts in good health,
For I've no intention of knack'ring myself,"
When Peculiar Ale was new, me boys,
When Peculiar Ale was new.

And the last to come in was the nightsoilman,
Who smelled as much as any man can.
He smelled as much as any man can,
And his personal charms were few.
He stood his old can against the wall.
"Rhubarb and prunes all round!" he called.
"And then there'll be work for nightsoilmen all."
When Peculiar Ale was new, me boys,
When Peculiar Ale was new.

And then they ordered their bottles of beer
And pints of sherry
To carry them off to the cemetery
And that is where they all were buried
When Peculiar Ale was new, me boys,
When Peculiar Ale was new.

HTML line breaks added. --JoeClone, 2-Sep-02.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Joneses' Ale was New
From: pavane
Date: 30 Aug 02 - 05:56 PM

Apparently when the yeast gets going, it excludes other micro-organisms, including harmful bacteria. Thats why wine keeps for so long.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Joneses' Ale was New
From: IanC
Date: 30 Aug 02 - 03:07 PM

Malcolm

Best to point out that "Small Beer" was what was commonly used as a breakfast drink ... the water wasn't too reliable (perhaps we should start again).

:-)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Joneses' Ale was New
From: pavane
Date: 29 Aug 02 - 02:06 PM

Does a copy of the 1594 text exist, or just the entry in the register?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Joneses' Ale was New
From: Barbara
Date: 29 Aug 02 - 01:37 AM

Best of my knowledge, the version most often performed stateside is the one popularized by the Copper Family and included in their songbook.
Probably the singer at the Ark, if it was in the 60s or 70s, was Michael Cooney. I heard him sing that one there -- he had a habit of showing up for a several night run at the Ark and refusing to perform any song twice. If you caught him the second set on the last night, he would sing some very arcane songs.
Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Joneses' Ale was New
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 28 Aug 02 - 07:16 PM

"Watter" is still a common pronounciation throughout Yorkshire (so by no means confined to the North East); earlier it will have been more widespread. "Small beer" was not just for children; everybody drank it (as earlier stated, it was safer than water); but they often complained that it wasn't stronger, so some things have not much changed from that time to this!

Baring Gould printed two texts in A Garland of Country Song (1895); one, described as up to date, began

There were three jovial fellows
With lungs as blacksmith's bellows
Sat drinking until mellow
Believe me, this was true.

The other began

There were three jovial fellows,
They all went out a drinking
They all went out a drinking
To make a jovial crew.

Claude M. Simpson (The British Broadside Ballad and Its Music, 1966) :

The ballad Jones ale is newe was licensed in 1594, along with what seems like a moralizing counterpart, the vnthriftes adiew to Jones ale is newe. The original ballad was re-entered in the Stationers' Register in 1656, to Thomas Vere....

The 1680 broadside text quoted above appeared in Pills to Purge Melancholy (1719-20; vol.V p.61), with tune, as The Jovial Tinker.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Joneses' Ale was New
From: pavane
Date: 28 Aug 02 - 06:32 PM

Debils I would be interested to see it anyway, as it seems to have retained the original title.

General note: One of the texts in the Bodley collection has some different characters, a Pitman and a Keelman, which possibly indicate a Newcastle version.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Joneses' Ale was New
From: debils
Date: 28 Aug 02 - 05:49 PM

have you found the song you remember if not could it be the one collected from my ggg granddad by Frederick Bussell for Baring-Gould in july 1893 called "When Joan's Ale was new". If you think it may be this one i will hunt out my copy and happily let you have it

Debbie

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Joneses' Ale was New
From: pavane
Date: 28 Aug 02 - 04:39 PM

Oops - pressed submit too soon. Just to note that there are THREE different songs in the Bodleian library entitled The Jovial Crew.

And yes, Malcolm, a different print clearly shows that neighbours is the word intended in the 1680 text.

Subject: Lyr Add: WHEN JOHN'S ALE WAS NEW
From: pavane
Date: 28 Aug 02 - 04:32 PM


The various titles found in the Bodleian library so far:

Six jovial tradesmen or Joan's ale was new
Joan's ale is new; or: A new merry medly (2 copies)
When John's ale was new (2 copies)
Joan's ale was new (several versions)
Joan's ale is new
The Jovial Crew

Possibly closest to the modern text is:

WHEN JOHN'S ALE WAS NEW
(C1850)

There was two jolly tradesmen
Went out to take an evening (sung twice?)
Amongst a jovial crew
The(y) called for a bottle of sherry
That over it they might be merry (sung twice?)
For John's ale was new

The first to come in was the hatter
And enquired what was the matter
He scorned to drink cold water
Amongst the jovial crew

He dashed his hat upon the ground
Saying every man must spend a crown
The company drank his health all round
For John's ale was new

The next to come in was a dyer
He placed himself near the fire
And no man could be higher
Amongst the jovial crew

He told the landlord to his face
That the chimney corner would be his place
That he might live and die in peace
For John's ale was new

The next that came in was a mason
His hammer it wanted facing
No man could be more decent
Amongst the jovial crew

He dashed his trowel against the wall
And prayed the Churches that they would fall
Then it would give the masons call
For John's ale was new

The next to come in was a butcher
With his knife and steel before him
With his knife and steel before him
Amongst the jovial crew

He toss'd his flesh upon the griddle
Whilst Willie Hog played up the fiddle
The rest of them danc'd around the middle
When John's ale was new

The next that came in was a tailor
with his lapboard, shears and thimble
Oh sirs! how he did tremble
Amongst the jovial crew

When he chalk'd down the score
The glasses were emptied o'er and o'er
And the tailor was forc'd to call for more
When John's ale was new

The next to come in was a tinker
He was no small beer drinker
He scorned to be a drinker (should be shrinker?)
Amongst the jovial crew

He came with rivets made of metal
To mend, braze or solder a kettle
And swore for what was drunk he'd settle
For John's ale was new

The last to come in was a ragman
With his bag over his shoulder
No man could be more bolder
Amongst the jovial crew

Oh how they rattled the pots and glasses
Until they were drunk as asses
They burn'd the rag bag all to ashes
For John's ale was new

Bodleian Ballad library
Ref Harding B11(652)
Transcribed by Neil Jennings

Notes:

Small beer - a weak beer brewed for children, as it was safer to drink than water

Water rhyming with Hatter may indicate a North-East origin for this version?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Joneses' Ale was New
From: pavane
Date: 25 Aug 02 - 04:09 AM

Thanks Malcolm. There's always one slips through!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Joneses' Ale was New
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 24 Aug 02 - 05:00 PM

Verse 1 line 3: He never was a shrinker

Verse 2 line 5: His Neibors (neighbours), I'd say.

Subject: Lyr Add: JOAN'S ALE IS NEW (from a 1680 broadside)
From: pavane
Date: 24 Aug 02 - 04:15 PM

This is not necessarily what you want, but for historical interest, here is a 1680 version.

(Someone has probably posted it before!)

JOAN'S ALE IS NEW

There was a jovial Tinker
Which was a good Ale-drinker,
He never was a shrinker,
   believe me this is true,
And he came from the wild of Kent.
When all his money was gone and spent
Which made him like a Jack-a-Lent
   And Jones Ale is new,
   And Jones Ale is new Boys,
   And Jones Ale is new,

The tinker he did settle,
Most like a man of mettle,
And vow'd to pawn his Kettle,
   now mark what did ensue.
His Neibors they flockt in apace.
To see Tom Tinkers comely face,
Where they drank soundly for a space,
   Whilst Jones Ale, &c.

The Cobler and the Broom-man,
Came next in the room man,
And said they would drink for boon man,
   let each one take his due:
But when good liquor they found,
They cast their caps upon the ground,
And to the Tinker he drank round:
   Whilst Jones Ale, &c.

The Rag man he being weary,
With the bundle he did carry,
He swore he would be merry,
   and spend a shilling or two:
And he told his Hostess to her face,
The Chimney-corner was his place,
And he began to drink apace,
   And Jones Ale, &c.

The Pedler he drew nigher,
For it was his desire,
To throw the Rags i'th fire,
   and burn the bundle blew,
So whilst they drank two whole flaskes,
And threw about the Glasses,
The rags were burned to ashes,
   And Jones Ale, &c

The Second part, to the same tune

And then in came a Hatter,
To see what was the matter,
He scorned to drink cold water,
   amongst that Jovial crew,
And like a man of courage stout,
He took the quart-pot by the shout (?spout?),
And never left till all was out,
   O Jones Ale, &c.

The Taylor being nimble,
With Bodkin, Shears, and Thimble,
He did no whit dessemble,
   I think his name was True,
He said that he was like to choak,
And call'd so fast for lap and smoak,
Until he had pawn'd his Vinegar Cloak
   For Iones Ale, &c.

Then came a pittiful Porter,
That often did resort there,
Quoth he I'le shew some sport here,
   among'st this jovial crew,
The Porter he had very bad luck,
Before that it was ten a clock,
The fool got drunk and lost his frock,
   For Iones, &c.

The bonny brave Shoo-maker.
A brave Tobacoo-taker,
He scorned to be a Quaker,
   I think his name was Hugh,
He called for liquor in so fast,
Till he forgot his Awl and Last.
And up the reckoning he did cast,
   Whilst Jones, &c.

And then in came the Weaver,
You never saw a braver,
With a Silk man and a Glover,
   Tom Tinker for to view,
And so to welcome him to Town,
Where every man spent half a crown,
And so the drink went merrily down,
   For Iones, &c.

Then came a drunken Dutchman,
And he would have a touch man,
But he soon had too much man,
   which made them after rue;
He drank so long as I suppose,
Till greatte drops fell from his nose,
And like a beast befoul'd his hose,
   Whilst Jones, &c.

A Welshman he came next sir,
With joy and sorrow mixt sir,
Who being partly vext sir,
   he out his dagger drew,
Cuts-plutter-a-nails, quoth Taffie than,
A Welshman is a Shentleman,
Come hostis fill's the other Can,
   For Jones, &c

Thus like to men of courage stout
Couragiously they drank about,
Till such time all the ale was out,
   as I may say to you.
And when the business was done,
They every man departed home,
And promised Ione again to come,
   when she had brew'd anew.

From a copy in the Bodleian Ballad Library
Douce 1(99b) printed between 1678 and 1680
Joan's Ale is new

Transcribed by Neil Jennings

Notes
Some of the original jovial crew are still present, the Hatter, Tinker, and others have now been replaced by the Dyer and the Soldier. The burning of the ragman's rags remained in later versions but has now vanished, and the current chorus is not present in this early version.

Shentleman because the Welsh use Sh to approximate a J sound (thus Sian for Jane, Sion for John)

Corrections made as per later messages; also capitals and punctuation added to correspond to the broadside. --JoeClone, 27-Aug-02.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Joneses' Ale was New
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 09:01 PM

Bbman-they's all mine but you can sing them out to your heart's delight.;~)

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Joneses' Ale was New
From: GUEST,Bman
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 04:52 PM

Charley, Loved it.

Subject: Lyr Add: WHEN JONES' ALE WAS NEW (new verses)
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 09:20 AM

For some newer verses from my drinking song sweat shop:

New Verses

The next came in was a mortician.
And he was in sorry condition,
Yes, he was in sorry condition,
For to join in the jovial crew,
And he flung out his arms and cried,
"If no one in town soon died,
I'll have to consider suicide"...

The next came in was a sailor,
And he was no dinghy bailer,
Yes, he was no dinghy bailer,
For to join in the jovial crew;
For he'd sailed tall ships 'round Cape Horn;
With fingers frozen and canvas torn,
Where you'd wish to God you'd ne'er been born...

The next came in was a sock troll,
Whose dress was exceedingly droll,
Whose dress was exceedingly droll,
When he joined in the jovial crew;
Argyle, stripped, and some was patched,
For he was attired in socks he'd snatched,
And not a single one did match...

The next came in was a chicken plucker,
And he was one mean sucker,
Yes, he was one mean sucker,
For to join in the jovial crew;
For he'd plucked chickens from town to town,
Rhode Island Reds to Leghorn Brown,
And he'd plucked them chickens up and down...

The next came in was an attorney,
Who'd returned from an arduous journey,
Who'd returned from an arduous journey,
For to join in the jovial crew;
He'd traveled the whole wide world around,
He'd searched through cities; he'd searched through towns,
There was no justice to be found...

The next came in was a firefighter,
And there was no one brighter,
Yes, there was no one brighter,
For to join in the jovial crew;
And he hauled out his nozzle with all his might,
And it was a totally awesome sight,
And the landlady's daughter squealed in delight...

The next came in was a financier,
With a cellular phone in each ear,
With a cellular phone in each ear,
For to join in the jovial crew;
And he looked all around with a frown,
And said, "If this deal don't go down,
I'll have to leverage the very next round"...

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Joneses' Ale was New
From: pavane
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 09:11 AM

The Bodleian library actually has several versions of this very old song, some in black lettering. It seems to have originally been Joan's ale (Jones ale in old spelling), not Jones's ale.

The early versions have more characters, including a Dutchman, but not the chorus as we know it.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Joneses' Ale was New
From: Mr Happy
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 03:21 AM

see also kipper family's 'peculiar ale'

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Joneses' Ale was New
From: GUEST,dblack
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 11:17 PM

Thanks for all your input. The lyrics provided differ slightly from what I remember, but all the elements are there. My daughter will be very pleased.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Joneses' Ale was New
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 07:01 PM

Look for 'There was a jovial tinker' on the Bodleian Ballads webite.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Joneses' Ale was New
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 06:20 PM

You can find one version Here

Murray

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: When Joneses' Ale was New
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 06:18 PM

It's in the DT: Jones' Ale. You can find songs in the DT and also threads in the Mudcat Café if you type some characteristic passage from the song into the "Digitrad and Forum Search" box to the left of the "Filter" box at the top of the thread list. Remember that titles and proper names are tricky, though. You spelled it Joneses', I searched for Jones's, and the DT has Jones' - any one phrase from what you quoted above would have been safer!

Subject: When Joneses' Ale was New
From:
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 05:43 PM

I heard someone (don't remember who) sing this song once at the old Ark coffee house in Ann Arbor, Michigan many years ago. It stuck in my mind for some reason, and also pleased my kids when I'd sing what I could remember of it. Can't find the lyric; can anyone help? It has a list of professions of men who come into a tavern and make their declarations about themselves, like so:

"The next to come in was a dyer
And he sat down by the fire
And he sat down by the fire for to join in the jovial crew
He told the landlady right to her face
That the chimney corner was his own place
And there he would sit and would dye his own face

Chorus:
When Joneses' ale was new, me boys
When Joneses' ale was new
And they ordered their pints of beer and bottles of sherry
To help them over the hills so merry
To help them over the hills so merry
When Joneses' ale was new, me boys
When Joneses' ale was new

I believe there was a mason whose hammer, it needed refacin' and a tinker who was no small beer drinker. Probably more as well. Many thanks if you can help.