Help: Songs that NEED a major 7th

Subject: Songs that NEED a major 7th
From: Genie
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 03:23 AM

Being a bit befuddled by the recent threads trashing the major 7th chord, I found my self bemused:

Are there songs that just gotta have a major 7th (or two)? Songs that cry for that particular form of chord?

Personally, I can think of a few -- like

"House at Pooh Corner"

"Something"

"The Christmas Song"

and a few others (yes, I know they're not "folk songs.")

But, rather than rant on in the abstract, I'm wondering what songs really need major 7ths (or something equally weird, by "folk" standards), and what songs (no more than 3 examples per person, please) are really f**ed up by the inclusion of such chords.

Genie

Subject: RE: Help: Songs that NEED a major 7th
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 03:43 AM

As somebody mentioned on the other thread, all songs by Jobim need major sevenths in order to sound sufficiently cool.

"The Girl from Ipanema" springs to mind as the best known example.

Murray

Subject: RE: Help: Songs that NEED a major 7th
From: GUEST,BlueJay
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 04:18 AM

Couple of Simon and Garfunkel songs-

Punky's Dilemma, where the Maj7 is the predominant chord form.

America, in the C-CMaj7-Am progression. The Maj7 is really needed in that progression. I suppose the song could be done without it, but it would lose timing and interest.

One of my old favorites is "Ride the Wind", by the Youngbloods. Very cool progression which alternates between Maj7 and Dom7, going down a half step with each chord change. Starts, (to my ear), on Dmaj7-Db7-Cmaj7-B7 and then Eminor-G minor-DMaj7. This song is great, IMO, and would not be around if Maj7's did not exist. Try it, and then substitute a regular major. It doesn't work.

Now I haven't been around the Mudcat much lately. Haven't seen the threads Genie refers to. But I'd have to go in favor of Maj7. I can't see where there would be any controversy. You can't use a Maj7 in place of a Dominant 7th. If you try, it probably won't work. That doesn't make it a bad chord. You can't substitute minor for major chords either, yet both forms seem acceptible to most. (But there's a rumor that in the U.S., the Bush administration is targeting minor chords as unpatriotic. "I never heered JP Sousa play no sad songs". Thanks, BlueJay

Subject: RE: Help: Songs that NEED a major 7th
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 04:21 AM

Younger Generation by John Sebastian Ain't Misbehavin' by Fats Waller Fish Heads

Subject: RE: Help: Songs that NEED a major 7th
From: Boromir
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 08:46 AM

Gordon Lightfoot is full of major sevenths.

Beautiful

J.S. Bach uses them as passing tones. Most famous example, First Prelude from the WTC, the one used as the accompaniment to Gounod's Ave Maria.

Without this beautiful interval we would chuck all the works of Debussey, Brahms.

Simon and Garfunkel use it a lot.

Old Friends America Bridge over Troubled Water.

There is quite a lot of left handed literature for the piano and it is quite beautiful. I like it. But I would never say it shouldn't be played because it is different or difficult. Neither would I say it should be played to the exclusion of other literature.

The same is true with chords and intervals. Include them, don't exclude them. But don't include them to the exclusion of others. Don't limit your musical horizons.

Boromir

Subject: RE: Help: Songs that NEED a major 7th
From: Justa Picker
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 08:57 AM

And who can forget Chicago's "Color My World?"
(Imagine what that tune would sound like without the major 7ths.)

Subject: RE: Help: Songs that NEED a major 7th
From: GUEST,Bagpuss
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 08:59 AM

I always play a maj7 in "Where are you tonight?" - cant remember who wrote it, but learned from June Tabor recording.

Subject: RE: Help: Songs that NEED a major 7th
From: Long Firm Freddie
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 08:59 AM

It's Too Late, Carole King, just wouldn't work without Maj 7ths, I reckon.

LFF

Subject: RE: Help: Songs that NEED a major 7th
From: John P
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 09:22 AM

George Harrison: Something

Subject: RE: Help: Songs that NEED a major 7th
From: Venthony
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 09:32 AM

I posted this in the other "7th" thread, but the story makes me smile, so I kinda wanted folks to read it.

*****

And what about all those jazzy augmenteds and 7ths Doc Watson uses?

THOUGH ... 30 years ago Paul Simon and George Harrison dueted on "Homeward Bound." It was on the old Smothers Brothers Comedy Hour.

George, who I think was playing that big J-200 he liked, stuck a maj. 7th into the second "homeward bound ..." during the chorus.

Obviously he was just trying to improv a little and vary things somewhat from the (nearly perfect) original. "Getting a bit of his own in," as you Brits might say.

But it was such a turkey from the hands of such a normally fine player that those of us ancient enough to recall the show still smile at the memory.

God bless you George. Wherever your heaven is, I know you're there. If misplaced 7ths were a cardinal sin, we'd all be in hell.

Best wishes, Tony

Subject: RE: Help: Songs that NEED a major 7th
From: alanabit
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 09:40 AM

It's down to horses for courses, isn't it? Burt Bacharach's "This Guy's in Love with You" dies without the major sevenths, but "The Wild Rover" sounds ridiculous with them. You use the tools you need. You don't reach for a hammer when you are putting in screws.

Subject: RE: Help: Songs that NEED a major 7th
From: Grab
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 10:06 AM

All the following songs need them:

Lying eyes - Eagles
Wonderful baby - Don Maclean
Vincent - Don Maclean
Mellow yellow - Donovan
Time in a bottle - Jim Croce

Songs which don't have that chord are messed up by it. If I play a D instead of a Dm chord, it'll sound crap. Same as playing a Dmaj7 instead of a D7.

Grab.

PS. Alanabit, *why* don't you reach for the hammer? It may not be as successful, but it's often more satisfying... ;-)

Subject: RE: Help: Songs that NEED a major 7th
From: Mark Clark
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 10:22 AM

The old Don Redmond tune “Gee Baby Ain't I Good To You?” is one. The Jim Kweskin Jug Band did this one on their Garden of Joy album.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Help: Songs that NEED a major 7th
From: alanabit
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 10:31 AM

You've got a point there Grab. Maybe I should be more spontaneous...

Subject: RE: Help: Songs that NEED a major 7th
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 11:57 AM

One where you'd not expect to find it: "Melissa," by the Allman Brothers. The boys were usually heard rockin' out loud and proud, with major chords and 7ths and 9ths, all bluesy, but sometimes with a minor 9th thrown in for good measure on spacey jams like "Dreams I'll Never See..."

So ... if you play it in the key of E (but the song actually sounds closer to being played in the Key of F), it's right at the tag before going into the next verse:

(Cmaj7) But I know that he won't (B) stay ...

Without (E) Melissa .... (repeated twice before the outtro, etc etc) *In the key of F: C#maj7, C, F.

A gorgeous ballad, that.

Subject: RE: Help: Songs that NEED a major 7th
From: Venthony
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 12:10 PM

"Maggie" -- a conflation of "When You and I Were Young, Maggie," and about as Celtic ballad/folkie as it gets, is MADE by the use of tasteful augmenteds and 7ths.

Tony

Subject: RE: Help: Songs that NEED a major 7th
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 12:21 PM

EVERY cheese-factor-7-Mr.Sulu song SHOULD be ended on a 7th... Whiskey In The Jar, Wild Rover, Black Velvet Band... etc... etc...

If yer gonna play schmaltz, ya may as well go all the way!

.-)

Subject: RE: Help: Songs that NEED a major 7th
From: curmudgeon
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 12:54 PM

Quite right, Venthony, about the 7th in Maggie. However, the song is Canadian. It went to Scotland?Ireland and was then brought back to the U.S.

Clinton - These songs were not always schmaltzy, at least not when I learned them some forrty years back. However, some of those who popularised them also dipped them in syrup or bad beer, or worse.

When I first met Lou Killen, he was doing a performance at the Press Room. Before singing The Wild Rover, as it used to be sung, he bewailed his ever having taught it to some "friends."

Sic friat crustulum -- Tom

Subject: RE: Help: Songs that NEED a major 7th
From: GUEST,alinact
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 12:57 PM

Just remembered a song we do, an old Velvet Underground number called Femme Fatale, that just wouldn't be the same without my favourite Cmaj7 - Fmaj7 intro.

Allan