PEL and the Law: 'Twas ever thus

Subject: PEL and the Law: 'Twas ever thus
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Aug 02 - 12:17 PM

I was reading A Williams "Folk Songs of the Upper Thames" published in 1923 and came across the following paragraph:

[Why folksongs are declining - migrations etc then] At the same time, the singing of the old songs went on as long as the fairs and harvest-homes were held, and even after they were discontinued, till they began to be rigidly discountenance, or altogether forbidden at the inns. This was the most unkind and fatal repulse of all. It was chiefly brought about, I am told, not by any desire of the landlord, but by the harsh and strict supervision of the police. They practically forbade singing. The houses at which it was held i.e. those at which the poor labourers commonly gathered, were markes as disorderly places; the police looked on song-singing as a species of rowdyism. Their frequent complaints and threats to the landlords filled them with misgivings; the result was that they were forced, as a means of self-protection, to request their customers not to sing on the premises, or, at any rate, not to be allow themselves to be heard.

Sound familiar?

Subject: RE: PEL and the Law: 'Twas ever thus
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 26 Aug 02 - 02:07 PM

I quote the following from the current issue of South Riding Folk Network News (no.36, Autumn 2002):

Hugh Waterhouse discovered the following in one of his extensive trawls through local newspapers:

Sheffield Independent, 7 Dec. 1833.

Ballad Singing in the Streets

To the Editor of the Sheffield Independent

Sir,

I would wish, through the medium of your interesting journal, to call the attention of our town officers to a very common nuisance, regularly practised at the top of Bower-spring, two or more evenings in the week. It is that of ballad-singing, a nuisance which abounds more especially on a Saturday night, when the thoughts of shopkeepers ought to be otherwise employed, than in being forced to hear lewd songs continually rung in their ears.
Trusting that this will speedily be put a stop to,

I remain, Sir, &c.

A. SHOPKEEPER

Sheffield, Dec. 5, 1833.

Although the name sounds positively sylvan, Bower Spring is a short street in what was in those days an industrial area of shops, public houses and small workshops, forges and so on. It's still there, but the ballad singers aren't.

Subject: RE: PEL and the Law: 'Twas ever thus
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Aug 02 - 02:20 PM

It isn't so much that there's no tradition of music in pubs as that jobsworth said to Hamish Birchall (see previuos threads - Bridgett his name was, wasn't it?), but that there is a tradition of attempts by the authorities to extinguish such goings on, which has been largely successful.

Subject: RE: PEL and the Law: 'Twas ever thus
From: The Shambles
Date: 27 Aug 02 - 07:30 AM

This from The English Folk Dance and Song Society

Hello Roger

Thanks for forwarding this. If people such as Sally leave it to the EFDSS to represent them and we are not in the discussion we are not able to represent them so please circulate my letter and urge everyone to write on their own behalf to Andrew Cunningham. Perhaps that way he will start to understand our point of view.

all the best Phil

[e-mail]

This is the letter from EFDSS to the DCMS. 23/08/02

Dear Andrew

I am disappointed at your unwillingness to include the EFDSS and it's rather substantial constituency in Licensing legislation consultation processes.

Unfortunately legislation these days is generally written with only commercial issues in mind. Civil servants can be blinkered at times and may be unaware of the people that they may be impacting through their legislation. This point is clearly demonstrated by the existing legislation which is universally agreed to be unsatisfactory.

It is important that we do all that we can to get it right this time.

In a world where social change moves at an ever increasing pace traditional culture provides a valuable anchor for society.

In many parts of the world governments fully appreciate their traditional culture recognising the important role it plays in providing identity and building social values and cohesion. They also understand that if people have a sense of their own traditional culture they able to recognise and appreciate other cultural backgrounds. It is a necessary ingredient to building harmony and mutual respect in ever increasingly multicultural societies.

Unfortunately this is not the case in England. The invaluable contribution made by our traditions to our rich cultural heritage is under threat as never before.

All over the country local authority officers are using this legislation to prevent ordinary people from keeping our precious traditional culture alive.It is clear from the public debate to date and statements from the DCMS that these local authorities are not operating within the spirit of the legislation.

People are hurting all over the country.

The EFDSS is very well placed to provide objective and sensible input to the consultation process. We are a charity and a highly respected organisation. We are committed to finding mutually beneficial solutions rather than merely create stumbling blocks.

I implore you to reconsider your decision.

Yours faithfully Phil Wilson Strategic Director English Folk Dance and Song Society.

Subject: RE: PEL and the Law: 'Twas ever thus
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 27 Aug 02 - 11:39 AM

At last an interesting thread on the topic, I thought, free of Shambles' spamming. But no, he couldn't leave this one alone either, even though he's already given his letter a thread of its own, and pasted it into at least one other thread too. Shambles, sort this problem out wherever it arises - locally. It's no big deal for most of us here.

Subject: RE: PEL and the Law: 'Twas ever thus
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Aug 02 - 05:30 PM

"It's no big deal for most of us here."

I take it "here" is somewhere in England or Wales where you haven't had any problems so far, so far as you personally are aware, Fionn.

It never is a big deal until one day we find it actually affects us.

We've lost two regular sessions locally because of this, one in Stansted (bluegrass), one in Waltham Abbey (English Music).

You've been lucky, and assume your luck will hold if you keep your head down. But if the new legislation goes ahead without safeguards and amendments, you might find the luck runs out sooner than you expect.

What Shambles has been doing plugging away at this is in no sense "spamming". It's useful seeing that letter, and getting understanding of the way even the EFDSS has been frozen out of this stitch-up that is going ahead. But the trouble is ""It's no big deal for most of us here" is a pretty widespread attitude, and explains why they are getting away with it.

Subject: RE: PEL and the Law: 'Twas ever thus
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 27 Aug 02 - 08:12 PM

Nevertheless, a link to one or more of the other threads where the letter is quoted might have served just as well, and would have allowed this particular discussion to proceed in the spirit in which it was intended. I would question the propriety of Roger's quoting Phil Wilson's covering note, since it refers to a third party who is implicitly criticised; that, surely, was private correspondence?

Subject: RE: PEL and the Law: 'Twas ever thus
From: The Shambles
Date: 28 Aug 02 - 02:40 AM

I have addressed these personal issues brought up here, with personal messages to those that posted and I will do the same with anyone else who has any similar concerns. Please let this thread return to its subject.

Subject: RE: PEL and the Law: 'Twas ever thus
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 28 Aug 02 - 08:15 AM

Sure it happens, McG, but it's a local problem. Sort it. I talk to my elected reps (MP, district and county councillors) frequently. Talk to yours. We don't need a yard-long screed plastered repeatedly all over mudcat.

Subject: RE: PEL and the Law: 'Twas ever thus
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 02:39 AM

I have assumed that the 'spirit' in which this thread was intended was not to say, It has always been like this, so it should remain so.

If it was to argue in favour of the status quo, placing the EFDSS letter here was probably not on topic. If it was to demonstrate and argue for a change, then it was perfectly on topic.

Or are there people who seriously wish the attitude demonstrated by above interesting examples and our current patchy, furtive and largely infeffective response to manifestations of this attitude, to continue in the dark?

Subject: RE: PEL and the Law: 'Twas ever thus
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 11:45 AM

A local problem is a problem that happens locally. When your house gets burgled it's a local problem. But it doesn't mean the house next door isn't liable to get burgled too.

If the proposed legislation is not changed, if a pub has not got told the new licensing authorities in advance details of the kind of entertainments they might want to put on, it is going to be illegal for even a single "performer" to sing a song or play a musical instrument.

Sweet-talking local councillors about it will do bugger all to get that kind of law off our backs.

And no, this whole business of interfering with out freedom to make music is not new, as DMcG's interesting quote that opened this thread demonstrates.

Now if the state of informal musicmaking in England and Wales was flourishing in spite of it, the fact that's it's been under attack for a long time might actually be quite reassuring. It would indicate that in spite of it all, we've pulled through. Unfortunately, that's not the case.

To some extent in recent decades we've pulled back from a situation that was even worse than it is now, and for those of us who really want to, we can still find opportunities to play and listen, though that's likely to get a lot harder, if some of the "reforms" aren't stopped in their tracks. But the repression over the past century has done unmeasured and unrecognised damage.

Subject: RE: PEL and the Law: 'Twas ever thus
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 11:52 AM

A local problem is a problem that happens locally. When your house gets burgled it's a local problem. But it doesn't mean the house next door isn't liable to get burgled too.

If the proposed legislation is not changed, if a pub has not told the new licensing authorities in advance details of the kind of entertainments they might want to put on, it is going to be illegal for even a single "performer" to sing a song or play a musical instrument.

Sweet-talking local councillors about it will do bugger all to get that kind of law off our backs.

And no, this whole business of interfering with out freedom to make music is not new, as DMcG's interesting quote that opened this thread demonstrates.

Now if the state of informal musicmaking in England and Wales was flourishing in spite of it, the fact that's it's been under attack for a long time might actually be quite reassuring. It would indicate that in spite of it all, we've pulled through. Unfortunately, that's not the case.

To some extent in recent decades we've pulled back from a situation that was even worse than it is now, and for those of us who really want to, we can still find opportunities to play and listen, though that's likely to get a lot harder, if some of the "reforms" aren't stopped in their tracks. But the repression over the past century has done unmeasured and unrecognised damage.

Subject: RE: PEL and the Law: 'Twas ever thus
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 02:31 PM

The following invitation from Pete Gibson.

Some good news for a change. Greenwich Traditional Musicians Co-operative are pleased to invite you along to our grand re launch on Tuesday 1st October at the Cricketers 22, King William Walk, Greenwich London SE10.

We have been given the go ahead by the landlord because he has now virtually completed all the work needed to obtain the PEL and has been assured by the local authority that once he submits his electrical safety certificate he will be granted an immediate licence. The PEL is for two nights every week and costs around £300 per annum.

To reiterate - the local authority were not originally prepared to issue the landlord with a PEL without substantial modification to the premises. They seemed to change their mind after much pressure from ourselves and our supporters including pointing out to them the relevant DCMS circular concerning duplication of pre-existing public safety requirements for ordinary licensed premises.

So a partial victory for at least those of us in the borough who want to run events such as ours and have a sympathetic landlord who recognises the benefit to both his own customer base and the community as a whole.

Let's hope that the eventual good sense of our local authority extends to others.

Please feel free to publicise this event as widely as possible. We need as much support as we can get.

Thanks for all your help. We will continue to support the campaign and not forget what we have had to go through.

Pete Gibson

http://greentrad.org.uk/

Subject: RE: PEL and the Law: 'Twas ever thus
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Sep 02 - 12:33 AM

Just pay the taxes and levy up your fees Shambles

Why are you such a skin-flint to not render unto Ceasar that which is Ceasar's?

I think you imagining "ghosts" where there are only hosts.