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Help: Meaning of word: scorpe

Fiolar 28 Aug 02 - 09:37 AM
songs2play 28 Aug 02 - 10:01 AM
Fiolar 28 Aug 02 - 10:15 AM
masato sakurai 28 Aug 02 - 10:27 AM
MMario 28 Aug 02 - 10:34 AM
Bardford 28 Aug 02 - 10:41 AM
MMario 28 Aug 02 - 10:43 AM
GUEST,Martin Ryan 28 Aug 02 - 05:10 PM
Amos 28 Aug 02 - 05:12 PM
Gareth 28 Aug 02 - 05:24 PM
artbrooks 28 Aug 02 - 05:26 PM
GUEST,leeneia 29 Aug 02 - 12:06 AM
Nigel Parsons 29 Aug 02 - 05:11 AM
GUEST,JTT 29 Aug 02 - 05:28 AM
masato sakurai 29 Aug 02 - 05:43 AM
GUEST,Martin Ryan 29 Aug 02 - 07:32 AM
GUEST,Davetnova 29 Aug 02 - 07:56 AM
masato sakurai 29 Aug 02 - 10:29 PM
Fiolar 30 Aug 02 - 05:17 AM
Penny S. 30 Aug 02 - 05:30 AM
Fiolar 30 Aug 02 - 05:47 AM
JohnInKansas 30 Aug 02 - 06:16 AM
masato sakurai 30 Aug 02 - 09:30 AM
GUEST,Bill Kennedy 30 Aug 02 - 10:09 AM
JohnInKansas 30 Aug 02 - 10:17 AM
JohnnyBGoode 30 Aug 02 - 10:56 AM
SharonA 30 Aug 02 - 11:19 AM
GUEST,Bill Kennedy 30 Aug 02 - 11:37 AM
Mr Red 30 Aug 02 - 01:18 PM
GUEST,Martin Ryan 01 Sep 02 - 04:59 AM
gnomad 01 Sep 02 - 06:07 AM
Fiolar 01 Sep 02 - 08:56 AM
Charley Noble 01 Sep 02 - 12:05 PM
Pinetop Slim 01 Sep 02 - 12:28 PM
GUEST 01 Sep 02 - 12:41 PM
Mr Red 01 Sep 02 - 01:30 PM
Fiolar 02 Sep 02 - 08:41 AM
Amos 02 Sep 02 - 09:19 AM
Mr Red 02 Sep 02 - 04:40 PM
Penny S. 02 Sep 02 - 07:03 PM
masato sakurai 03 Sep 02 - 10:15 PM
OldPossum 19 Nov 02 - 02:21 PM
OldPossum 19 Nov 02 - 05:05 PM
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Subject: Meaning of word.
From: Fiolar
Date: 28 Aug 02 - 09:37 AM

In that great poem "The High Tide on the Coast of Lincolnshire" by Jean Ingelow, one of the verses contains the line, "For shippes ashore beyond the scorpe."
Does any 'catter know the meaning of "scorpe?". I have searched all my dictionaries and even looked up the OED and the "dictionary of obsolete words" with no success. Thanks for any explanation.


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Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of word.
From: songs2play
Date: 28 Aug 02 - 10:01 AM

The only scorpe I know is a wood working tool. It is a sort of a curved blade, with handles at either side, and is used to form a curved recess on wood. For example to form the inside of a wooden canoe if made out of one tree trunk. (this could be a bad example, but you get my meaning I hope)


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Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of word.
From: Fiolar
Date: 28 Aug 02 - 10:15 AM

songs2play. Thanks. I did find that meaning for the word but it made no sense in relation to the poem. It may be that it is an obscure dialect word used only in Lincolnshire as that is where Miss Ingelow was born.


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Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of word.
From: masato sakurai
Date: 28 Aug 02 - 10:27 AM

The High Tide on the Coast of Lincolnshire from her Complete Poems.

~Masato


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Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of word.
From: MMario
Date: 28 Aug 02 - 10:34 AM

okay - given the KNOWN definition of the word, I would suspect the "scorpe" referred to in the poem (from context )- to be a sea-wall / breakwater that resembles the woodcarving tool


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Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of word.
From: Bardford
Date: 28 Aug 02 - 10:41 AM

Maybe a derivative of escarpment?


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Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of word.
From: MMario
Date: 28 Aug 02 - 10:43 AM

that was my other thought - a mispell at some point of "scarpe"


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Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of word.
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 28 Aug 02 - 05:10 PM

A Dictionary of Historical Slang gives "scorp" as late 19C. slang for a "scorpion" which in turn meant a civilian in Gibraltar! The derivation was from the scorpions that infest the Rock. I suspect this actually brings us back to MMario's curved breakwater - with a choice as to whether it was suggested by the tool or the animal, assuming them to be independent.

Regards


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Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of word.
From: Amos
Date: 28 Aug 02 - 05:12 PM

The context implies vessels running aground beyond the coast, as on a reef or submerged rock.

"Scarpe" is as good a guess as any.

A


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Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of word.
From: Gareth
Date: 28 Aug 02 - 05:24 PM

Scorpe, I can't prove it, but in the back of my mind is an old defenition of scorpe as being the buff or slight uprising at the end of a beach where the soil gives way to sand or shingle.

Probably heard in Whitstable on the North Kent Coast.

Just a thought tossed into the pool of enquiry.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of word.
From: artbrooks
Date: 28 Aug 02 - 05:26 PM

Scarp=steep slope. Sounds reasonably in context.


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Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of word.
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 29 Aug 02 - 12:06 AM

Maybe it's one of those watery place names such as the Minch,the Solent,the Firth or the Mull.


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Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of word.
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Aug 02 - 05:11 AM

Can't help except to suggest that if we're accepting misprints, it might have started as 'Scope', meaning range, or any other enclosing description, or, as the father is high in the belfry (a suitable watchtower)possibly beyond vision of the (tele) scope ??

Nigel


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Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of word.
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 29 Aug 02 - 05:28 AM

Scarp seems the likeliest:

1. Fortif. = ESCARP n. 1. 1589 P. IVE Pract. Fortif. 10 The scarpe that the Curtin will make may bee some 28. foote, or more or lesse. 1654 COKAINE Dianea IV. 280 On the top they [the walls] are made after the fashion of a scarpe. 1709 LUTTRELL Brief Rel. (1857) VI. 471 The enemy..lye 2 leagues off behind the scarp. 1876 BANCROFT Hist. U.S. III. xiii. 199 The left extended to a scarp surmounted by an abattis.

b. The total pitch or 'batter' of a bank. Obs. 1639 R. NORWOOD Fortif. 113 If the ditch be dry it must be the deeper, and have the lesse scarpe. 1669 STAYNRED Fortif. 7 The Inward Scarp of the Parapet... The outward Scarp of the Rampire... The Scarp of the Ditch.

2. The steep face of a hill; = ESCARP n. 2. 1802 PLAYFAIR Illustr. Huttonian Theory 410 The scarps of the hills face indiscriminately all points of the compass. 1901 H. TRENCH Deirdre Wed 32 Far up, where darkling copses over-grow Scarps of the gray cliff from his river'd base.

(Oxford English Dictionary)


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Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of word.
From: masato sakurai
Date: 29 Aug 02 - 05:43 AM

It must rhyme with "Mablethorpe."

~Masato


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Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of word.
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 29 Aug 02 - 07:32 AM

I can understand "scarpe" on land - but have we clear examples of an offshore use, which the context suggests?

Regards


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Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of word.
From: GUEST,Davetnova
Date: 29 Aug 02 - 07:56 AM

Scapa Flo?


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Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of word.
From: masato sakurai
Date: 29 Aug 02 - 10:29 PM

On these pages the word "scorpe" is retained, with no annotations. Is there any edited text?

High Tide on the Coast of Lincolnshire, 1571, The. By Ingelow, Jean

The High Tide on the Coast of Lincolnshire

~Masato


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Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of word.
From: Fiolar
Date: 30 Aug 02 - 05:17 AM

Gareth's meaning seems to fit the poem best. I have been to Boston (Lincolnshire) and there are no cliffs anywhere in the that whole area. The church tower, which dates from the 14th century is called "The Boston Stump" and is visible for miles across the landscape. On another tack - at the beginning of the poem, ringing "The Brides of Enderby" seems to be a celebration of some sort but as the poem progresses the ringing of the bells takes on a more sinister aspect. It seems to be a warning much the same way as the ringing of church bells in 1940 would have been a signal of a German invasion. In the poem, it seems that the mayor was trying to warn the people of the forthcoming tide. Does any have any information on "The Brides of Enderby?"


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Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of word.
From: Penny S.
Date: 30 Aug 02 - 05:30 AM

This sounds as though it should turn up in a dictionary of English Place Name Elements - can't find anything immediately useful on the web, but I will look in my Anglo-Saxon dictionary when I get home from holiday tomorrow. A connection with scarp, and Gareth's meaning seems likely, though. In its context, the place where the beach of sand or shingle gives way to seafloor mud would also be a possibility, the one that you find when you swim out from shore as a child and then put your foot down and the bottom isn't there, where the waves begin to break at the right position of the tide.

Penny


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Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of word.
From: Fiolar
Date: 30 Aug 02 - 05:47 AM

I checked the "Brides of Enderby" on Google and got some great information. Well worth a look.


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Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of word.
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 30 Aug 02 - 06:16 AM

The French-Japanese Ocean Dictionary shows "scorpe" as a real word. Unfortunately I'm not equipped to see the Japanese part of the entry. There is a "lookback" in a nearby definition, with a reference to "scorpion de mer."

As the usage seems to refer to a "place" as opposed to a "thing," referring to a water-scorpion (beast or boat) seems a stretch. A woodworking tool (more commonly scaup in the US, I think) seems also unlikely.

Isle of Man Historical document refers to a Sir William Le Scorpe, so we might ask his heirs:

Sir William de Montecute was granted the Island in absolute possession in 1333, and it was inherited by his son, the second Earl of Salisbury, in 1344. In 1392, exercising his absolute right of ownership, Sir William Montecute II sold the Island and its crown to a supporter of Richard II, Sir William Le Scorpe, who on the accession of Henry IV in 1399 was beheaded, leaving the Island in the hands of the English crown again.

The majority of hits on a net search for the word alone appear to be "fantasy-gamer" sites, which would be unlikely to use a traditional meaning of any word not commonly used by infants (tongue in cheek?).

John


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Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of word.
From: masato sakurai
Date: 30 Aug 02 - 09:30 AM

John, the entry word in that French-Japanese dictionary is not scorpe, but written scorpe`ne (grave accent is placed after the letter), which in ordinary writing is scorpène. It's a kind of fish ("scorpion fish"; Sebastiscus marmoratus).

~Masato


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Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of word.
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 30 Aug 02 - 10:09 AM

I think one should look to old words derived from Danish, in use locally. The Danes left quite a legacy in Lincolnshire, I think names like Skegness come directly from the Danes, and in modern Danish is the word skaerpe, which means 'edge'. An older Danish meaning may have been the edge of the sea, or of the land, which would fit the meaning of the poem. Any Danes out there with verification of this?


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Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of word.
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 30 Aug 02 - 10:17 AM

Masato -

Thanks. I should have guessed that, but most of the page was just junk on my display. It's probably as close to a useful hit as most of the gamers' stuff that came up on my quicky search.

A check on a couple of slang/jargon dicts - on the premise that usage might give a clue - has led me to nothing useful.

John


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Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of word.
From: JohnnyBGoode
Date: 30 Aug 02 - 10:56 AM

Could it possibly mean "beyond repair", the ships being ashore and what not?


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Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of word.
From: SharonA
Date: 30 Aug 02 - 11:19 AM

While we're talking about the poem, let me ask about another word in it: from the context, it sounds like an "eygre" is a wave of water, possibly on the order of a tidal wave. Am I correct in this assumption?


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Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of word.
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 30 Aug 02 - 11:37 AM

like a tidal bore


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Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of word.
From: Mr Red
Date: 30 Aug 02 - 01:18 PM

with a scorpe as a knife/chisel with a curved blade and the sand connection is this a reference to the kind of sand bank that developes at the mouth of rivers and curves round to lengthen the estuary parallel with the coast.
I have the name Orford Ness in mind.
Is scorpe = ness = bill?


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Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of word.
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 01 Sep 02 - 04:59 AM

Penny

I checked a dictionary of English placename elements - no luck.

Regards


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Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of word.
From: gnomad
Date: 01 Sep 02 - 06:07 AM

Sharon A- re Eygre: River Trent flows through Lincolnshire for some of its length, and has a tidal bore at certain times. This is similar to the Severn Bore, but smaller and less well known. The name is pronounced as in your post, but I'm unsure of the spelling. The reference seems rather wide-ranging though, as the Trent flows nowhere near the coast of Lincs, but along the western edge up to its confluence with the Humber.

I checked for "Scorpe" on what O.S. maps I have of Lincs but without success (I don't seem to posess the parts south of Mablethorpe). Some of the sandbanks have great names which I wouldn't expect to find in place name registers, and this looks a possible answer to the riddle.


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Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of word.
From: Fiolar
Date: 01 Sep 02 - 08:56 AM

Thanks, folks, for all the interesting info.


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Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of word.
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Sep 02 - 12:05 PM

The "riddle of the sands!" You might try searching through a marine geomorphology dictionary. At least a British onemight include some regional terms such as "scorpe."

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of word: scorpe
From: Pinetop Slim
Date: 01 Sep 02 - 12:28 PM

Where scorp is a scooping tool, and apparently of Scandinavian derivation, scorpe may be some place where the land is scooped -- either upward as in scarp or inward, something like a cove or fjord.


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Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of word: scorpe
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Sep 02 - 12:41 PM

This straining at a Gnat thread reminds me of and old adage of bygone years...about those who would:

....argue with a SIGNPOST and take the wrong road...


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Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of word: scorpe
From: Mr Red
Date: 01 Sep 02 - 01:30 PM

Scunthorpe is in Linconshire and it might be that this fine town is the object of the poem but PC and censorship had to hide the naughty word by removing a few letters?.
And while we are straining at this gnat have we hit on the the earliest example of compuserves auto-anti-smut software in full chat?


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Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of word: scorpe
From: Fiolar
Date: 02 Sep 02 - 08:41 AM

Scunthorpe is actually in Humberside and if you check the poem you will find that the warning of the high tide relates to Boston, Lincolnshire and has nothing whatever to do with Scunthorpe. Scunthorpe means "Skuma's Outlying Settlement" and is derived from the Danish. It is recorded as "Escumetorp" in the Domesday Book.


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Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of word: scorpe
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 02 - 09:19 AM

Bill Kennedy's observation about Danish antecedents is a good one, and the most consistent explanation witht he poem itself that I've seen yet.

A


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Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of word: scorpe
From: Mr Red
Date: 02 Sep 02 - 04:40 PM

so who put the "unth" in Scunthorpe?
FWIW "thorpe" in any place name (on the eastern side of the UK) can mean "church" - every settlement had a church.
Humberside? Humberside? so who recognises the existence of (call me a pedant) South Humberside? Not those living in the East Riding - gadzooks that would acknowledge the fact of North Humberside and that never could be - there are too many Kingstonians on this here Mudcat we would be outnumbered if we dared whisper it's name........


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Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of word: scorpe
From: Penny S.
Date: 02 Sep 02 - 07:03 PM

The Trent bore is called the Aegir - the name of the Norse sea god.

Aegir

My Anglo-Saxon dictionary is not much help. I checked various possible spellings, remembering that Danelaw pronunciation might favour k over h sounds. Like the relationship between sharp and scarp.

I found "scearp" - sharp, in all its variant meanings, edge, acid, etc. This fits the Danish, above. "sceorp", ornaments, clothing, and ship fittings - not relevant. "scorp" same as sceorp. "scierp" same as sceorp and scearp - a verb for clothing, or sharpening. I'm pretty sure I found a version of 'shore', but I can't find it again. It lacked any terminal 'p' sound though.

Could any Lincolnshire site help? Some counties have dialect pages.

Sorry help not greater.

Penny


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Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of word: scorpe
From: masato sakurai
Date: 03 Sep 02 - 10:15 PM

My suggestion is "scaup", which is a dialectal variant of "scalp." Doesn't sb.¹ fit? From OED (1st ed.):

Scaup, variant form of SCALP sb.¹ and sb

Scalp (skælp), sb
5. A bare piece of rock or stone standing out of water or surrounding vegetation (thus resembling a hairless skull). Sc. and north. dial. (pronounced and often written scaup).
b. The cap of a mountain. Chiefly poet.

Scalp (skælp), sb
A bank providing a bed for shellfish, esp. oysters and mussels; an oyster or mussel bed or colony. (Often mussel-, oyster-scalp.)

~Masato


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Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of word: scorpe
From: OldPossum
Date: 19 Nov 02 - 02:21 PM

About the word scorpe: I found this in the Glossary to Ancient and Modern Scottish Songs collected by David Herd, (first published in 1776, reprinted 1973, Scottish Academic Press):
Scawp, a bare dry piece of stony ground.
Could that be it? This is a glossary of Scotch words of course. I have found nothing helpful in the Danish language, but then I am no linguist.


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Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of word: scorpe
From: OldPossum
Date: 19 Nov 02 - 05:05 PM

Hmmm... The plot thickens: Searching for 'scawp' on the internet locates a site about Boston, Lincolnshire, that mentions a place 'at the Scalp (pronounced "Scawp")'. See also this map. It seems Masato was on the right track, as usual!


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