Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafesj

Post to this Thread - Printer Friendly - Home
Page: [1] [2] [3]


BS: Another Bush war? (Bush, Iraq)

McGrath of Harlow 02 Sep 02 - 06:05 PM
DougR 02 Sep 02 - 05:24 PM
Amos 02 Sep 02 - 04:53 PM
Bobert 02 Sep 02 - 04:49 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Sep 02 - 04:28 PM
Don Firth 02 Sep 02 - 03:20 PM
Amos 02 Sep 02 - 03:16 PM
Bobert 02 Sep 02 - 03:03 PM
Amos 02 Sep 02 - 02:47 PM
kendall 02 Sep 02 - 02:44 PM
Bobert 02 Sep 02 - 02:10 PM
Amos 02 Sep 02 - 01:18 PM
Don Firth 02 Sep 02 - 12:53 PM
DougR 02 Sep 02 - 12:52 PM
Bobert 02 Sep 02 - 12:27 PM
GUEST,Taliesn 02 Sep 02 - 12:24 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Sep 02 - 12:07 PM
Greg F. 02 Sep 02 - 10:59 AM
Bobert 02 Sep 02 - 10:17 AM
Amos 02 Sep 02 - 01:44 AM
Venthony 02 Sep 02 - 01:16 AM
Venthony 02 Sep 02 - 12:25 AM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Sep 02 - 07:11 PM
Bobert 01 Sep 02 - 06:49 PM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Sep 02 - 06:39 PM
Don Firth 01 Sep 02 - 02:43 PM
DougR 01 Sep 02 - 01:35 PM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Sep 02 - 08:37 AM
GUEST,Taliesn 01 Sep 02 - 05:05 AM
Bobert 31 Aug 02 - 09:14 PM
DougR 31 Aug 02 - 07:50 PM
Amos 31 Aug 02 - 06:28 PM
McGrath of Harlow 31 Aug 02 - 06:18 PM
Bobert 31 Aug 02 - 02:25 PM
Peg 31 Aug 02 - 01:37 PM
Amos 31 Aug 02 - 01:24 PM
Don Firth 31 Aug 02 - 01:19 PM
DougR 31 Aug 02 - 01:03 PM
NicoleC 31 Aug 02 - 11:02 AM
GUEST,sorefingers 31 Aug 02 - 10:15 AM
artbrooks 31 Aug 02 - 10:09 AM
InOBU 31 Aug 02 - 09:14 AM
DougR 31 Aug 02 - 02:56 AM
NicoleC 30 Aug 02 - 11:48 PM
artbrooks 30 Aug 02 - 10:36 PM
michaelr 30 Aug 02 - 09:50 PM
Don Firth 30 Aug 02 - 09:40 PM
Amos 30 Aug 02 - 09:30 PM
McGrath of Harlow 30 Aug 02 - 08:51 PM
InOBU 30 Aug 02 - 11:13 AM

Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:













Subject: RE: BS: Another Bush war?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Sep 02 - 06:05 PM

Whatever happened to all that old guff about deterrence? And how possessing weapons of mass destruction was the way to ensure that you weren't attacked by weapons of mass destruction? I remember when people like me in England were arguing that it would be a good idea for the UK to get rid of such weapons that was seen as desperately irresponsible.

Maybe the idea is that "deterrence theory" doesn't apply to suicidal fanatics driven by crazy ideas and crazy ideals. But noone has ever suggested that Saddam Hussein is a suicidal fanatic with any kind of ideals - he's a ruthless dictator, very similar to lots of other ruthless dictators who, like him, have in their time been seen as useful tools, and have been armed and supported by America and other outside governments.

An dthis thread is too long, so I'm starting a part two.


This thread is closed because it was getting too long. Please post on part two (click).
Thanks.
-Joe Offer-


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Another Bush war?
From: DougR
Date: 02 Sep 02 - 05:24 PM

Kendall: what the heck is your democratic candidate spending perfectly good money on a camp for himself, when he could use that money for the greater good? I'll bet, even in Maine, there are some poor folks that could benefit from that candidate's largesse. Selfish, I say! Selfish! Spending money for his own pleasure. Indeed! Are you SURE he is a Democrat? :>)

Bobert: Did you come up with those ten points all by yourself? I would be interested in hearing your forceful argument that invading Iraq would increase the chances for a terrorist rowing a boat up the Hudson and setting off a nuclear device. You really think they need that as an incentive? Your really think they won't, given the chance, IF we DON'T invade Iraq?

And now you call for another conference call. All the conferences, meetings, BBQ's, etc. have really been effective settling the Palestinian/Israeli question haven't they? I think you got that list out of a box of Cornflakes. It is common knowledge that Post cereals is controlled by left-wingers. (I didn't say "democrats" in deference to McGrath) :>)

DougR


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Another Bush war?
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 02 - 04:53 PM

The sad truth is they are all members of the Bureaucrat Party. This makes it hard to expect responsible action from them. If Bush believes that Saddam's threat is great enough to wartrant preemptive initiation of hostilities -- an incredibly risky thing to do -- he bloody well should lay out why he believes it. The fact that he does not means, to me, that he believes himself possessed of some kind of high privelege or, worse, some sort of superiority which goes deeply against my grain when it comes to deciding on momentous issues such as dividing the world by unsubstantiated war-mongering.

A


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Another Bush war?
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Sep 02 - 04:49 PM

Unless I'm missin' something, I'm not reading a lot of partisanship in this thread. The facts speak for themselves and Bush, the Dem, Repub or Bull Mooser, is scaring the heck out of me with his policies, both domestic and foriegn.

In this case as it relates to this perticular thread, it just happens to fall under his foriegn policy. Incidently, word on the street is that Powell has had just about enough, too, so you can bet the farm that he's going to jump as soon as the train slows down.

Bobert


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Another Bush war?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Sep 02 - 04:28 PM

At risk of repeating myself: I know there's a feud between those who support the two halves of the single Democrat/Republican party - but wouldn't it be better to do the partisan head-bashing in a separate thread, and concentrate on war and peace issues here.

So far as I can see, there's no particular reason why Bush couldn't be a Democrat sitting in the White House, and no reason to think his competence would be any more or less, or that his foreign policies would be significantly different.

So the question is whether they make sense or not, regardlesss of the party label.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Another Bush war?
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Sep 02 - 03:20 PM

Assuming (and this is a big assumption!) that he has no hidden agenda here and that what he says is what he really believes, when the current president wants to go to war against a small nation governed by some blustering tin-pot dictator (but certainly no Hitler) because he considers it a potential threat even when it has no substantial military power—and against the counsels of many of his advisors (including the military) and against the objections of other nations including those we regard as our allies, it seems perfectly reasonable to me to raise questions about the competence of that president.

Don Firth


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Another Bush war?
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 02 - 03:16 PM

I sympathize, Bobert -- a mind is a terrible waste to think... or somp'n like that...


A


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Another Bush war?
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Sep 02 - 03:03 PM

Law of averages must have caught up with my boney Wes Ginny butt there, Amos. Heck, I was overdue...

The new and improved hillbilly...

And, Kendall, ya' think your guy got nailed, ya' ought to check on that Congresswoman from Georgia, Cynthia, ahh, ahhh, (danged mind is a dangerous thing). Talk about an ambush. That ol' gal had half the Repubs in her district votin' in the Democratic primary! Talk about dirty tricks! Wow...

Bobert


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Another Bush war?
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 02 - 02:47 PM

Dang. Bobert, boy, where'd yew go off to ta learn to talk like that??? You sounds downright coHERent!! Ya gonna give lessons to the Pooka fella? He might be harder to learn cuz of coming from deeper down than y'all but he's right bright!:>)

A


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Another Bush war?
From: kendall
Date: 02 Sep 02 - 02:44 PM

Actually, Bush and Churchill do have something in common; Being drunks! The shrub didn't serve in the National Guard, that's why he didn't bash Clinton, and, at least, Clinton wasn' t such a hypocrite as to wear a flight jacket! Tony, I as a democrat, do much more than rant, and if I were you I would remember one of the less appealing sides of your party. The Dirty Tricks dept. It's still at work, even here in Maine. A local democrat rep. to the legislature just bought a summer camp on the beach, and his republican rivals want the secretary of state to declare him unqualified because he "moved out of his district"! This is the kind of nit picking, narrow minded, self serving judgemental crap that we have come to expect from your party. Notice, I am attacking some of your members, not you, even though you painted all democrats as "ranters".


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Another Bush war?
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Sep 02 - 02:10 PM

Well, the title of the thread is "Another Bush War" so it does stand to reason that Bush might find himself on the main stage of this thread.

I don't think is off limits to question:

1. The links between the Bin Laden and Bush families.

2. Bush's military record.

3. The fact that Iraq recives $6B from the US for it's oil.

4. That Bush and Cheney are oil men and continue to have close ties to the industry.

5. That it can be forcefilly argued that an attack on Iraq increases the chance of one day having a family member of a killed Iraqi float a boat with a nuclear device up the Potomac River.

6. That those corporations which will porfit the most from a hot war in Iraq are arms manufacturers which have close ties to the party the now possesses the White House.

7. That, as a result of a hot war in Iraq, the federal budget will continue to tilt further toward the "defense" department and further away from social programs.

8. That perhaps the dialogue on the internet has brought about some reconsiderations for a war on Iraq.

9. That a war on Saddam need not be a war on Iraq,

and 10. That perhaps rather than attacking Iraq, Bush could call for a Middle East Peace Summit, including members of the PLO, with the aim of furthering the basic elements of the Saudi proposals.

Okay, now 'ol Bobert has put up enough stuff to keep a few folks busy firing back, but, hey, we might have strayed off course and and the "new and improved" Bobert has not once used the following words: Junior, Senior, Bin Laden or knucklehead.

And I've followed Doug's advice with the paragraph thing (kind of...).

Peace

Or no war...

Bobert


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Another Bush war?
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 02 - 01:18 PM

Welcome to the sorry assed species of Homo Sap, Don -- avoiding thought is what we do best!

Blinders, Ignoral, and Kneejerk, Thought Avoidance Mechanism Specialists


If you need your thoughts avoided effectively, call on us!! Bias, conclusive ignorance, black screens, shallow diversions, flippant rejections and glumly endless apathetic nothing applied with the very best modern techniques.

Blind spots a specialty. You'll never see your unwanted thoughts again!

Call today!


Regards,

A


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Another Bush war?
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Sep 02 - 12:53 PM

McGrath, the Sage of Harlow, has a knack for cutting to the heart of the matter.

I don't regard myself as either "liberal" or "conservative," and it tends to get up my nose when I venture an opinion or quote a fact and someone given to kneejerk reactions simply dismisses what I say by calling my a name. It allows them to avoid having to a)answer b)think.

Don Firth


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Another Bush war?
From: DougR
Date: 02 Sep 02 - 12:52 PM

Hey, Greg F., where you been? I wondered when you might show up in this thread. I've missed you!

I wasn't aware that one's service records was public information. Where did you find it? It would be interesting to look up several people's service records.

DougR


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Another Bush war?
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Sep 02 - 12:27 PM

Excellent point, McGrath. The labels tend to be quite misleading and purposely counterproductive. It is the issues that are paramount and not the fraternal squabbling sideshow that tends to push itself into the forefront.

Bobert


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Another Bush war?
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 02 Sep 02 - 12:24 PM

(quote) "As the official service records clearly indicate, he was AWOL for two thirds of his National Guard stint, and was never prosecuted. Imagine that! - a Real Hero- another chickenhawk."

"Chickenhawk George".... I like that one. Has a certain ring to it.

"Let me tell ya 'bout a story of a Chickenhawk George, and with his family's wealth, the personality he'd forge. and then one day he woke a head state, just in time for the 2nd Iraq-gate. It's over Oil that is, unfinished bidness, Texas pride "

with apologies to the Clampets.....


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Another Bush war?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Sep 02 - 12:07 PM

What's "conservative" and "liberal" got to do with issues of whether or not it's right to make a particular war in particular circumstances?

There are people to whom either label (and quite a few more - those aren't the only political options, by a long way) on both sides on this issue. Waving labels like that around just serves to divert discussion into matters of less immediate significance.

And the same applies in respect of all kind of other matters where, for some reason, people seem to think that those labels coincide with divisions of opinion, when they just do not. Capital punishment, global warming, fox-hunting, gun control...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Another Bush war?
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Sep 02 - 10:59 AM

Correction:

Baby Bush did manage to get into the National Guard, thru Daddy Bush's influence, to keep him out of the real war by defending Texans from Viet Cong invaders, but he did NOT "serve". As the official service records clearly indicate, he was AWOL for two thirds of his National Guard stint, and was never prosecuted. Imagine that! - a Real Hero-
another chickenhawk.

Best, Greg


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Another Bush war?
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Sep 02 - 10:17 AM

Tony,

Sorry to have gotten under your skin. Tell ya' what. I'll make you a deal. You come up with book written by a conservative author that you want me to read and I'll read it if you will read Greg Palast's "The Best Democracy Money Can Buy".

It's not that I don't have knowledge or ideas here. It's just that there are a lot of folks who have studied history and been around for a few decades in the trenches fighting for the working man, who now look at an administration which is Hell bent on repeating behavior expecting different results... This ain't about the definition os "is" or some Whitehouse intern, it's about the blatent assault on the Bill of Rights and a quick trigger finger.

Now, do we have a deal, Tony? Don't confuse my poor typing skills, my severe dyxlexia or my hillbilly act for a lack of intellegence. Yeah, I may read slowly, but I remember well.

Regards.

the Bobert


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Another Bush war?
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 02 - 01:44 AM

Well, Tony, we all have bad days once in a while. There's a certain art to biting your otngue at the right moments, and NOT at other times!! Better we should all study it! You are certainly not the first, nor the last, to vent more than you wish you had!

A


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Another Bush war?
From: Venthony
Date: 02 Sep 02 - 01:16 AM

My last post was rude and ill-considered. Bobbert et al just get under my skin sometimes, which of course they have every right to do. Forgive the insensitive and impolite flame.

Best to all, Tony


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Another Bush war?
From: Venthony
Date: 02 Sep 02 - 12:25 AM

The level political discourse on this site is so puerile that it sinks beneath any rational response.

All I can say is -- as a proud conservative and member-in-good-standing of the GOP -- that no less than Christopher Hitchens, of "Beat the Devil" fame, is one of my very favorite journalists and authors.

He says almost nothing with which I agree, but he is rational and convincing and ethical and brilliant -- and a flawless wordsmith; and he makes me think.

On occasion, he even moderates my views.

You folks, by contrast, seem able only to name-call and hurl vulgar cliches filched from the commonest of the common press.

I know some of you read good books, and that the best of you even know how to think for yourselves.

So prove it with something besides cynicism, cheap shots and street-corner rhetoric.

Sincere best wishes. Tony


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Another Bush war?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Sep 02 - 07:11 PM

Today's Observer has an interesting piece pointing out that at the time Saddam was using poison gas, both against Iranian troops, and Kurdish oppenenys, and killimng thousands of civilians inthe priocess, he was actually having his back protected bythe US. He was seen as the good guy in the war he started against Iran, and a few atrocities like thta weren't seen as too significant:

As Iraq's use of poison gases in war and in peace was public knowledge, the question arises: what did the United States administration do about it then?

Absolutely nothing. Indeed, so powerful was the grip of the pro-Baghdad lobby on the administration of Republican President Ronald Reagan that it got the White House to foil the Senate's attempt to penalise Iraq for its violation of the Geneva Protocol on Chemical Weapons to which it was a signatory.

This made Saddam believe that the US was his firm ally - a deduction that paved the way for his brutal invasion and occupation of Kuwait and the 1991 Gulf war, the outcomes of which have not yet fully played themselves out.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Another Bush war?
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Sep 02 - 06:49 PM

As long as Senior Bush Laden is still breathing you can bet that Junior will do everything he can to nail Saddam. Hey, he's just following orders...

Bobert


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Another Bush war?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Sep 02 - 06:39 PM

When a politician says they have no plans to do something that is generally taken to mean that they have every expectation of doing it, but it's not convenient at this time to say so.

For example, if Daddy Bush had said "Watch my lips - I have no plans to raise taxes," he'd have been home clear, because he'd have avoided making any commitment.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Another Bush war?
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Sep 02 - 02:43 PM

Yeah, Taliesn, in response to a lot of bellicose talk, Bush notes that it isn't going over all that well with the diplomatic corps, with the military, and with the public, so suddenly he has "no plans." I thought someone was supposed to beep when they back up like that.

Look for some kind of major policy address on September 11th. It'll be interesting. . . .

Don Firth


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Another Bush war?
From: DougR
Date: 01 Sep 02 - 01:35 PM

Tailesn: you certainly were correct about the Sunday "talk" shows. They even have the governor of Minnesota on CNN to offer his opinion of the situation. I wouldn't be surprised to see Ole' Bobert or Kendall to pop up next. :>)

DougR


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Another Bush war?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Sep 02 - 08:37 AM

Doug, as I said, it's one thing to evade a war you are opposed to, but getting out of one you are in favour of is something else. And there has never been any hint that Bush at any time opposed the Vietnam War.

Getting a student deferment isn't the bravest way of keeping out of being called up. But on the other hand to go and fight in a war you are opposed to can also be a form of moral cowardice.

But in any case the quote I was commenting on was about Bush, and saying "he is no coward". It wasn't about Clinton, who I'd see as a pretty unsavoury sort of character as well.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Another Bush war averted?
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 01 Sep 02 - 05:05 AM

Well aparently the collective voice of the Mudcatters has "single-handedly" worked its magic on the White House ( well , it's a nice fantasy anyway ) because Pres. Muppet Dubya's P.R. brigade has apparently taken great effort to "get out that message" that *he* has *no plans* yet.

Well gloooooory Be, who'd a thunk it that admitting he was ,indeed , clueless ( the emperor has no plans ) would be considered good P.R.

Anybody care to dispute that this all reads like confirmation that he hadn't *Clue One* from the start when he first started to make the "War on Iraq" speeches that were written for him?

Should prove interestingppose this glaring "back-peddling" will surface on the Sunday News programs in some form or another.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Another Bush war?
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Aug 02 - 09:14 PM

Well, danged, Dougie. Makes ol' Bobert all choked up knowin' that you're actaully reading my posts. Really does.

Now, I know you're a man of few words. Kinda Kendallish in that way. But Junior is depending on you to do more that crituque mu writing style. You're 'sposed to be defending him.

Hmmmmmmm? Maybe ol' Doug has figured out that there us no defense for crappy and mean-spirited policies?

Think we got a closet commie here, folks.

Come on out, Doug.

Come on out...

The truth will set ya' free...

Bobert


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Another Bush war?
From: DougR
Date: 31 Aug 02 - 07:50 PM

I am trying to remember, McGrath, if you heaped similar words of praise upon our previous president on his behaviour during the Viet Nam conflict. Bush at least served in the National Guard. Heck, with all the money he made from oil, he could even have immigrated to Canada!

Bobert, old buddy, I'm so glad you are breaking your posts into paragraphs now. I read all of 'em now!

DougR


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Another Bush war?
From: Amos
Date: 31 Aug 02 - 06:28 PM

Perhaps managing an international bloodbath will help him overcome his fears! A therapeutic experience!!

Therapy is costly, sure, but think of the benefits!!

A


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Another Bush war?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Aug 02 - 06:18 PM

"GW is no Einstein but he is no coward" As he demonsrated during the Vietnam War?

Keeping out of a war because you think it's wrong and you want no part of it is one thing; but Bush supported that war while making damn sure that he kept out of harm's way, while other people, without the connections and the friends in high places, went out there. I wouldn't say that someone who does that "is no coward."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Another Bush war?
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Aug 02 - 02:25 PM

No, sorefingers, it certainly isn't lost upon anyone, especially oil man Junior Bush Laden, that 75% of Iraq'a oil ends up in the tanks of our beat up Toyotas and Fords right here in the US. Do you really think that the big oil companies don't make a profit on imported oil, or what? If you'll revisit your arguement you'll find what a lot of use have been saying all along. Put two rich oilmen in charge and this crap is what you're gonna get. Ain't rocket science. Now throw in the corporate bed buddies of the folks who make war products and you'll plainly see that working class America has and is about to be severly duped in the name of national security...

Mark ol' bobert's words here. When the smoke clears from Junior and Dick's self serving administartion, the country will be emersed in deficits from his perchant for blowing folks up and giving away money to his rich friends and the average worker will be worse off then they've been in 25 to 30 years, with less access to health care, working longer and harder with a totally bungled up Social Security system.

Impeach these fool while there's any hope for America...

They gotta a go...

Save our Country...

Bobert


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Another Bush war?
From: Peg
Date: 31 Aug 02 - 01:37 PM

George Bush isn't a coward???

HUH?

Why then did he hide his candy ass in planes (or who knows where) for an entire day while Manhattan burned?

Small wonder people practically canonized Rudy Giuliani (previously thought a fascist by many New Yorkers) for his leadership at this time; where was our fearless leader? Sorry but I see NO excuse for a president to allow himself to be spirited away while the country is under siege.

Where is Jed "I'm not going to the bunker" Bartlet when you need him?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Another Bush war?
From: Amos
Date: 31 Aug 02 - 01:24 PM

Energy and water folks -- if we can cure those, the world will reinvent itself in a whole new balance, for better or worse. Being as deeply invested in oil as Bush-head is is kinda like being the king of Buckboard manufacturing in 1902. Y'ever notice how fast buggy whips went out of style? How often do you hear people complain "Why cancha find a really good Conestoga maker when ya need one!!". Mene tekel ipse facto, Georgie boy!! Thy day approacheth.

A


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Another Bush war?
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Aug 02 - 01:19 PM

Sense of history, sorefingers. Hitler was a homicidal maniac who had a world view, the backing of most of the powerful people in one of the most powerful countries in Europe, and a massive military machine at his command. Hussein is a petty tyrant in a second-rate country where a lot of people hate him, and his military is a rag-tag, ill-equipped rabble. One of the parallels with Nazi Germany that really bothers me is how they systematically eroded the rights of their own citizens by invoking visions of outside threats, then accused those who questioned this of lack of patriotism.

And you just said the magic word. Oil.

Don Firth


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Another Bush war?
From: DougR
Date: 31 Aug 02 - 01:03 PM

I love you folks, I truly do!

Sorefingers, I don't know how you got them and surely sore fingers can cause a lot of discomfort, but I'd suggest in a most friendly way that your fingers in this thread are not what is at risk. You better duck your head! :>)

DougR


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Another Bush war?
From: NicoleC
Date: 31 Aug 02 - 11:02 AM

Doug, I trust them. To place their personal profit and desires above the good of the country.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Another Bush war?
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 31 Aug 02 - 10:15 AM

Reading the thread scares me silly! Hey it would not have mattered who was in the White House they would still need to do something!

GW is no Einstein but he is no coward, how he gets rid of that monster is not an issue. Saddam is a criminal of the worst kind, like a crooked cop he wallows in official authority as he gasses, tortures etc innocent civilians to death.

Left to do his dirt he will become something far far worse than Adolf the ashman or Joe the fertilizerman.

For the record - nobody seems to notice or care about the economics of the Oil game. US Oil imports from Saudi = 1 million barrels per day ... US Oil imports from Iraq = 8 hundred thousand barrels per day.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Another Bush war?
From: artbrooks
Date: 31 Aug 02 - 10:09 AM

Actually, Doug, I do trust them...to do what is absolutely wrong from my personal perspective. Where's Harry Truman when you need him?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Another Bush war?
From: InOBU
Date: 31 Aug 02 - 09:14 AM

Dear DougR:... Ahhh duh.... Larry


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Another Bush war?
From: DougR
Date: 31 Aug 02 - 02:56 AM

I have read all of the posts in this thread very carefully, and have tried to be as fair in my assessment of them as I can. As most of you know, I am a conservative, and to support the current administration.

What I deduce from reading the many posts in this thread, though, is you folks really don't trust Bush and Cheney, right?

DougR

DougR


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Another Bush war?
From: NicoleC
Date: 30 Aug 02 - 11:48 PM

Islam in the Middle East has always been barely tolerated in the US by the status quo, despite it's growing popularity here. When you combine that with the economic dependance we have on the Middle East and the fanaticism that arises anywhere you combine abject poverty with deep religious convictions... well, the boiling cauldron of oil shouldn't be a surprise. In the aftermath of 9/11, it's hard for anyone to maintain perspective about the region when you already have a widespread residual prejudice against people who share the same socio-religious background as a bunch of murders who carefully plan ways to kill anyone they disagree with.

So now Iraq has ceased offering anything resembling the olive branch in the wake of the latest grandstanding from Washington. Gee... what a surprise! Since when do petty dictators -- particular fundmendalist Islamic ones, do anything but get stubborn and defiant in the face of Western bullying??? There is nothing that Iraq can do to appease the US, and it's been stated quite clearly that the US wants regime change, not inspectors.

Time for a pet peeve -- I hate hearing how Iraq "threw out" the weapons inspectors. The weapons inspectors were withdrawn by the US in 1998 because they said Iraq wasn't cooperating, and we wanted our people out before we bombed them. "Cooperating" in this case meant that the "inspectors" -- US spies -- wanted full access to things like Saddam's private home. Oh yeah, there's a weapons factory in the basement! Then Iraq refused to let the inspectors back in after they were subjected to another round of aerial death.

Right or wrong, I'm tired of hearing about how Iraq "kicked out" the inspectors. They did no such thing, it's just propaganda at it's best.

Honestly, though, I'm starting to feel a little optimistic about the Iraq situation. Regular people in the US are talking about whether it's right or wrong. Even if Bush goes ahead, as tragic as that will be to the everyday citizens of Iraq who get killed in the process, the fact that a dialogue is taking place is a sign that democracy may be very ill, but it's still alive and it's not going down without a fight. I haven't seen people (other than the usual left or right wing activists) talking seriously about politics in almost a year...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Another Bush war?
From: artbrooks
Date: 30 Aug 02 - 10:36 PM

There are very few people out there who would disagree that Saddam Hussain is a pimple on the face of humanity. However, in the spirit of keeping all of the facts on the table, and not comparing apples to rutabegas, please keep in mind that there is absolutely nothing to link him to the 9/11 attacks. Believe it, if there were we would be hearing nothing else.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Another Bush war?
From: michaelr
Date: 30 Aug 02 - 09:50 PM

Don -- we very well may be.

As to the news here being deficient, check this out: WorldLink TV. Alternative news AND music!

Cheers,
Michael


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Another Bush war?
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Aug 02 - 09:40 PM

McGrath, thanks for the link to The Guardian. I read the letter, then ran a search for the article it refers to and read it. In fact, I bookmarked the site and I'll be back a lot, because the news services in the States are frequently deficient in giving a global picture of what's really going on (big flamin' surprise!).

This I hadn't heard! George W. Bush keeps a bust of Winston Churchill in his office and compares himself to Churchill? Sweet weeping Jesus! We are DOOMED!!!

Don Firth


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Another Bush war?
From: Amos
Date: 30 Aug 02 - 09:30 PM

Just to keep the record clear, those torched and ruined bodies at the bottom of the WTC were not opinions. I see nothing patriotic about Bush's warmongering stance; but I do think we need to remember there is a material beginning to this confrontation. And if you want to talk about setting aside the rule of law, a few of those passengers might have had a few thoughts on the matter before they were slaughtered.

I am not trying to fan the flames of blind aggression or blind compliancxe to creeping facism. But let us please keep all the facts on the table.

A


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Another Bush war?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Aug 02 - 08:51 PM

"Lets see. There's this one country which is stock-piling weapons of mass destruction and hell bent on attacking another country.

And then there is Iraq..."

A letter in Friday's Guardian expands on what Bagpuss said up the thread:

There are analogies between the international situation now and in the 1930s (Searching for a new hero: why America has turned to Winston Churchill, August 29). Then, as now, a minority political clique gained control of a great military and economic power, after an ambiguous and manipulated electoral process. Then, as now, they used propaganda to amplify a burning, but unfocused, sense of popular insecurity and grievance. Minorities were scapegoated - then socialists and Jews, now Muslims.

Then as now, international agreements and obligations were set aside, as, increasingly, were aspects of the rule of law, while the major supranational organisation was too weak and disunited to act effectively. Threats and grievances were amplified in the public mind to justify aggression. Thus, domestic opinion was carried along in the rush to re-armament and war, the opposition cowed into silence by the fear of appearing unpatriotic.

(For the rest of that letter, by a Dr EC Hulme of St Albans, Herts, click here.)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Another Bush war?
From: InOBU
Date: 30 Aug 02 - 11:13 AM

Thanks Art, I hope folks sing it until it isn't. Cheers Larry


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate


Next Page

 


This Thread Is Closed.


Mudcat time: 25 January 3:57 PM EST

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.