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Folk And Roll
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Subject: Folk And Roll From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 28 Aug 02 - 08:58 PM Reading the responses on the Thread about 60's folk music, it makes me realize even more how differently we have come to this loosely defined music, "folk music." It's no wonder that we don't all see eye to eye. Or is it ear to ear? Here in the U.S.of A. we've come from all directions. Those of us old cats didn't even come in the same way. I remember singing Wimoweh in the high school showers after swim class, having no idea who the Weavers were, or that we were singing "folk" music. Same with Tzena, Tzena or Goodnight, Irene. Goodnight Irene fit in nicely with The Tennessee Waltz and There's A Tree In the Meadow. I'm surprised that Jo Stafford didn't record Goodnight, Irene. While we were singing in the shower, teenagers in bigger cities were being exposed to folk music, and recordings in a way that was totally unknown to us. Ironically, it's my buddy Art Thieme who grew up in a Chicago Highrise who heard more traditional folk than I heard at his age. I was hearing Hank Williams and Bob Wills. And I lived in a small town, two blocks from open country. I imagine that teenagers living in New York City were far more aware of folk music than us "folk" out in the country. After all, the folk revival was really fueled in the cities, not the country towns.
For those of us small town folks, the closest we came to hearing "folk" music was when someone took a folk, or folk-sounding song and arranged it to fit the ears of whatever music was popular at the time... the Weavers backed by Gordon Jenkins, with arrangements that would have been fine for Patti Page, songs like Mule Train, Call Of The Wild Goose, Sixteen Tons... even The Wayward Wind. When rockabilly and rock and roll came in, groups like the Fendermen took Mule Skinner Blues and rocked out. What I'm wondering is, where people's taste lie in regard to folk music and rock and roll. I can tell you as a fact that I know a Catter who can do the Duck Walk, just like Chuck Berry, and someone else who does a fine Buddy Holly. I do Blue Suede Shoes and Blue Monday, and early rhythm and blues (later dubbed Doo Wop.) And yet I know Catters who break out in hives at the sound of anything electric.
When we get into the younger generations, folk music may mean Paul Simon and James Taylor (and of course, Dylan.)
Then, you have the folks (just talking U.S.A. here for the moment because it's all I know,) who come to the Cat through old-time music, bluegrass or blues.
What I'm wondering is, friends, do you consider rock and roll and folk music to be mutually exclusive? How did you handle folk/rock? Did you find it fresh and innovative, or an affront to all that you love about folk music? Or, do you find them just different forms of music that at least initially grew out of folks (before the Music industry got its hands on it, as they do everything.)
Can you enjoy listening to Doc Watson,Mark Knopfler(playing it safe, here), Jimmy Hendrix, Chuck Berry and Nirvana? As Bo Diddley would say, "Who Do You Love?"
Any rockers out there (besides you, Fortunato.) All those who think the plug should be pulled on electric guitars, let's hear from you.
Maybe The Beloved/Behated Beatles said it best. Come Together. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: Folk And Roll From: Barry Finn Date: 28 Aug 02 - 11:34 PM Hey Jerry, I guess it was a mixed bag back when I was a teen. Loved Lura Niro, she was the inner city queen of folk for me right along side of Gracie Slick (who name I just saw in some movie credits a few days ago). It seems a bit strange now but back then (67 0r 68) I was listening to Sonny & Brownie (I was under the influence of my sister's girlfriend) & fell for prison songs through the singing of Taj Mahal. Loved to sing "Life Could Be a Dream" as much as "Kathy's Clown" as much as Champion Jack Dupree's "I Can't Stop Drinkin" as much as Patti's "Ol Cape Cod" (I was under the influence of my older aunts on that one). Loved Phil Spector's 'Wall of Sound' sound as much as hearing Dave Van Ronk in a dingy coffeehouse. Really hadn't heard the word traditional but I had been singing & listening to it, just didn't know what it was. The first two songs I sang in public was "Wish it Would Rain" & "The Way You Do the Things You Do" back in the late 60's & I think it was a couple months later I was getting into doing "Lining Track". It wasn't just me but a group of us would hit the last few yrs of the 1960's Newport festivals as much as we'd hit a concert by Cream or Big Brother & the Holding Company or the Platters or hearing Big Mama Thorton piss & moan about Elvis & her Hound dog song. Ya I guess it seems a bit strange that I pretty much stay to the more traditional side of folk but I do still love that mixed bag I first fell in love with. For a while, while I still had the legs, my wife wouldn't allow me on a dance floor with the kids around in fear that I'd start in on my James Brown camel walk or hurt myself doing splits & other such youthfull excerises to get a rise out of them. Still it was a long strange trip to folkdom. Maybe if you're at the getaway you you'll do "Blue Monday" on Saturday morning & will wake the dead. Barry |
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Subject: RE: Folk And Roll From: M.Ted Date: 29 Aug 02 - 12:10 AM I'm with Barry--love all the good music, from Cape Cod to James Brown, and Nirvana, too! And I gravitate toward the traditional stuff(Uncle Dave Macon, lately) as well-- |
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Subject: RE: Folk And Roll From: Amos Date: 29 Aug 02 - 02:43 AM To this day I'll do doowop with as much pleasure as a hard-time blues or a sweet modern folk-style number like "Nightrider's Lament" which I learned from Mudjack last month. Or, for that matter, the Rising of the Moon or Rolling in My Sweet Baby's Arms or iding Ol' Paint alongside of Oh, Donna and Druh-eeem. I used to think some of the Fifty's pure sentiment stuff was just tripe, but I was more critical of it back then; I still find it a little unreal or un-singable -- Hernando's Hideaway or The Little Blue Man, for example -- stuff with unreality woven deeply through it -- but I'll do the Witch Doctor any day! LOL! It's all singing hearts to me, man. A |
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Subject: RE: Folk And Roll From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 29 Aug 02 - 03:36 AM Ahh, Barry: You're a man after my own heart. I sang Searchin' at a "Favorite Songs" workshop once (it didn't say favorite FOLK songs, and I had a couple of members of Rock Creek in the workshop who smoothly joined in on the background. I did Blue Monday at a Cowboy Songs workshop once, when the other two singers didn't show up. I didn't have a full hour of cowboy songs and couldn't carry the workshop alone, so when I ran out of cowboy songs, I did Blue Monday (with advanced warning) and nobody left. I won't be down for the Getaway, as I was just down to D.C. with my gospel group in June, and I'll be doing a house concert in D.C. on September 13. The weekend after the Getaway, I'll be at the Nomad Festival in Newtown, CT, and once in awhile, I have to stay home.
MTed: I liked Nirvana, too. I'm counting on someone coming to my nursing home in another twenty years, and doing Smells Like Teen Spirit. :-)
But, when it comes to folk music, I like mine acoustic, and three chord(except for blues and ragtime stuff.) I'm not offended if someone wants to add chords (Genie) or even play a Major 7th. But, I like the old stuff, played simple. Most of all, in folk music, the song's the thing, and I like to play an accompaniment that compliments the words, not competes with them. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: Folk And Roll From: Sir Roger de Beverley Date: 29 Aug 02 - 03:45 AM I had a gig on Sunday in which we played 42 songs. Sixteen were unaccompanied traditional from the British Isles, half a dozen were from the American tradition (Roll in my Sweet Baby's Arms etc), another half dozen were by Dylan/Simon etc and the rest were rock/pop from the 50s onwards. When I went to my first folk club in 1964 I had already got a collection of Buddy holly, Chuck Berry, Bo Diddley, Everly Brothers records and seeing Davy Graham, Paul Simon,Ewan Macoll, McPeake Family, New lost City Ramblers etc at the folk club didn't seem all that different from watching Joe Cocker at the R&B club just along the road - it still doesn't. Roger |
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Subject: RE: Folk And Roll From: GUEST,brother Date: 29 Aug 02 - 05:08 AM Thank goodness somebody admits liking different styles. As someone who grew up listening to Buddy Holly Elvis, Joe Brown, and having sung round the piano with my family. Came to "folk" music with The Young Tradition, Watersons,Dylan , Paxton, Prine. I think that Folk Music is just what folk want to sing. |
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Subject: RE: Folk And Roll From: smallpiper Date: 29 Aug 02 - 05:17 AM Music is music and who cares if its electric or not! I like everything except modern Jazz and thats 'cos I don't understand it. I love to rock and roll! You should hear Sir Roger playing rock and roll on his mandolin - a real treat |
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Subject: RE: Folk And Roll From: Steve Parkes Date: 29 Aug 02 - 09:25 AM I think we were lucky in the UK in the 50s (at least, I was lucky). We only had one popular music programme on the wireless: the Light Programme. The light played everything from light classics through jazz, trad British folk (the revival was under way), Caribbean music in all its variety (lots of immigration back then) to the Everly Bros and Elvis. Even when the split came in 1967 into Radios 1 (kids) & 2 (parents), there were still only two progs (not counting Luxembourg & the pirates). I don't know if there was any "serious" jazz on the Third (Radio 3) back then. But we were all exposed to a pretty broad (if "safe") range of music, unlike today's youngsters; and unlike the US, with its specialist local stations. I like almost anything now, and it's all down to Auntie Beeb. But more than that, I've always been keen to discover more: where did that song come from, what else do they sing/play over there, whose records do the performers listen to? What was the question? Oh yeah, are Folk & R'n'R mutually exclusive? No! And if you think they are, I'm sorry for your self-limited taste: you're losing out, not me. Steve |
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Subject: RE: Folk And Roll From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 29 Aug 02 - 09:41 AM Hi, Steve:
I remember one night in the early 60's at the Gaslight Cafe in Greenwich Village when a young black man (they were called Spades, back then) got up on stage to sing. Black folks were as rare in folk music back then as they are now. One of the songs that he did that received a lot of applause was a song that I knew, long before I knew about folk music. He sang the flip side to the record Gone, Gone, Gone by the Penguins (who most people only know because of Earth Angel.) The song was/is Troubles Are Not At End, and it has that familiar rhythm and blues chord progression that was used for Earth Angel. The Gaslight Cafe was one of the premier folk clubs, and people came expecting to hear folk music. But, the audience received the song as enthusiastically as if the kid learned it off a wire recording of an old-timer from Arkansas. I talked to the kid afterward (me being all of 26 or 27) and told him how excited I was to hear him do the song, and we talked for awhile about the Penguins... turned out it was one of his favorite groups, too. I agree... there is a whole richness of music out there to enjoy... :-) Jerry |
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Subject: RE: Folk And Roll From: Rick Fielding Date: 29 Aug 02 - 10:25 AM There were MANY reasons why I had a spot of trouble fittin' in as a kid, and my taste in music didn't help things one bit. As a 14 year year old my record collection contained things like:
Ferrante and Teicher...Theme from Exodus. Oh brother...what an era to grow up in for music! Heck Jerry, if I'd learned to dance, I might never have learned to play, and I CERTAINLY would not have become such a 'subversive'!! Cheers Rick |
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Subject: RE: Folk And Roll From: C-flat Date: 30 Aug 02 - 02:02 PM I enjoy most kinds of music and, depending on the circumstances, will turn up at a folk meeting with a couple of traditional tunes or, if the gathering is less traditional, I may play some Jim Croce or James Taylor. I'm stealing a couple of Jerrys' songs from the tapes he sent me (but I haven't asked him yet!) When I play with my band we cover a fairly broad range of music, for example; last night we played a small pub in Stokesly, North Yorkshire and covered songs by The Doobie brothers The Gypsy Kings Paul Carrack R.E.M. Stereo-phonics David Gray Cockney Rebel Van Morrison Curtis Steiger Joe Cocker Tom Jones Santana Jools Holland We finished the night off with a blues-brothers medley that lasted for over 20 minutes because the singer forgot the "hook" that takes us to the "outro" but it was great fun and the audience seemed to enjoy the diversity on offer. Needless to say this wasn't a folk club but I still enjoy traditional music nights and respect the wishes of the purists that don't want to hear anything else.Personally I like to think my ears are open to anything that makes me want to sing, dance, tap my feet or that tells a story well. |
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Subject: RE: Folk And Roll From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 30 Aug 02 - 02:29 PM Hi, C: Use anything you want... that's part of why I wrote them... I only wish I could have been there to hear you guys last night. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: Folk And Roll From: M.Ted Date: 30 Aug 02 - 02:32 PM When you play a song, you remake it in your own genre, C-Flat--funnily enough, a seemingly eclectic set often --a comes across with a single, over-riding sound, even when you don't mean it to--and audiences like it that way-- |
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Subject: RE: Folk And Roll From: C-flat Date: 30 Aug 02 - 02:43 PM That's dead right M.Ted, every band has it's own "sound" based on instruments, equipment settings and so on and I've no doubt that everything we played last night sounded like us. Jerry, thanks, I know I can't match your deceptively relaxed delivery but I'll enjoy playing your songs! |
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Subject: RE: Folk And Roll From: John Hardly Date: 30 Aug 02 - 04:02 PM funny... for some reason I always draw a line (how very arbitrary of me) in the history of music, at the dissolution of Buffalo Springfield because this is when "folk rock" to me took on a different nature------a juggernaut that took the music "industry" by storm.
The nature of "folk" influence in music changed from truly folk, to singer/songwriter.
I see a big difference between The Byrds (god, how I loved them), BS, S&G,et al. ///// and the James Taylor, re-made-Carole King, Paul Simon sans Garfunkle, and then the CSN&Y,Eagles, Poco, Firefall, music that followed.
I even see CSN as three singer/songwriters accompanying each other, more than being the "supergroup" they were billed as (probably the keeping of personal identity has much to do with this perception).
Another change made in this era was a sort of refinement that included the allowance of experimentation, and the inclusion of more principles of music arrived at through a "jazz" mentality----hell, look at the left hand turn that happened in bluegrass at the same time (little coincidence that Clarence White would be found in the thick of the era). I mean, "newgrass" had its start at this point in time too. Anyway, if it isn't Buffalo Springfield for me, then it's CCR (don't ask me why, but they always seemed as connected to "folk" as to rock) |
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Subject: RE: Folk And Roll From: Mudlark Date: 30 Aug 02 - 04:17 PM I came of musical age in the mid-50's in LA. Those were the days when you could hang out in the record stores listening to records in soundproofed booths at the back of the store. By 17, I was into traditional, mostly Brit. Isles folk, modern jazz, chanties and blues, with a pretty good record collection. My love of guitar took me from folk into classical, as well as flamenco. In LA I was lucky enough at that time to see all this music live.
A flip side of one of my folk records, maybe Cynthia Gooding, had Songs of the Auvergne on it, which led me into non-english folk music, and from there into opera. While never losing my love of all those genres, when psychodelic rock came in I was in light-show heaven in California.
Then, in 1970 moved to (very) rural Arkansas, and aside from my own record collection, every other kind of music dropped away, leaving me with great bluegrass, old-timey and country songs. Then, on moving back to Calif. in the 80's I came to appreciate current singer/songwriter folk-ish music. Through it all 2 things stand out for me lyrical melodies and great story-telling. Whether it's Julian Bream, Stephan Grossman or Norman Blake , whether it's a 47-verse Matty Groves, a well-crafted, complex jazz or pop tune, like Someething Cool, or a spare but wrenching blues, if it touches head, heart and/or gut it's got my vote. |
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Subject: RE: Folk And Roll From: GUEST,Fred Miller Date: 30 Aug 02 - 05:18 PM Well, some of the stuff I like I don't even want to mention, except that by the time I learn some songs, they lose their interest. Sometimes the production is very good, the material sort of fragile in itself. But then sometimes you find a way to make it work. I grew up listening to art-rock, progressive rock, I liked the range of things in Yes, and the acoustic sound in Jethro Tull--Ian Anderson elicits such hatred in so many people I hate to mention it. I never paid any attention to the Beatles til college, or Dylan, who sort of brought me back around to the stuff my dad played. So I worked backward from pop stuff looking into the elements I liked. I have mixed feelings about Dylan, who can seem very cynical, but from the point of view of commercial pop music generally, not cynical at all. Probably my favorite bit of criticism of any popular music of any time was Paul McCartney talking about early Beatles: Back then all our songs were basically saying to our fans Please Buy This Record, you know, Thank you Girl, and P.S. I Love You. To me that's a very funny, devastating remark. And a lot of pop music has such embarrassingly cynical sales ploys, advertising imageries imbedded in it, one can hate to admit to liking the better aspects. I was a lute major for a year or so in college, and don't know exactly what I was thinking, but I could listen to that stuff all day back then. Seems very dry to me now. I don't know much about jazz, but seem to think there's dog-jazz, and cat-jazz, and I prefer the cat. Dog jazz has its tongue hanging out, showing its chops and panting long solos, cat jazz seems more idea driven, leaves something unsaid, and meant to. I can't help liking aspects of all sorts of things, but envy and admire those who make a grown-up commitment to a vein. It takes a better musician than me to really play broadly with different idioms, there's a lot more than meets the eye in most of them. And those fine points that I don't get, as a casual listener, keep turning out to be the main points, as I learn more about a style.
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Subject: RE: Folk And Roll From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 30 Aug 02 - 05:32 PM Fred Miller brings up a good point: we don't necessarily play the music that we love most. Or sometimes, if we do we don't play it well. When I first got a guitar, I tried playing jazz guitar, barely knowing three chords. But, I heard all of the chords in my head. I worked out a relatively sophisticated guitar arrangment of Little Girl Blue, having no idea what chords I was playing. I could hear the music in my head and it was a matter of finding a physical configuration of my hand that would give me the notes I wanted. Ironically, the most complex song I've ever played, using the whole neck of the guitar was when I first started playing... It's all been down hill after that... :-) Jerry |
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Subject: RE: Folk And Roll From: michaelr Date: 30 Aug 02 - 06:34 PM Fred Miller -- hatred for Ian Anderson? From which quarter? Jethro Tull ruled paramount during my formative years, and I still go to see them play every few years. Anderson's baroque folk-rock songs and small-body guitar playing, along with Martin Barre's electric guitar, make a wonderful noise. Have you encountered folkies that turn up their noses at Tull? John Hardly -- very good point about the seminal Clarence White: he truly bridged bluegrass and rock'n'roll, and his influence on music in general and on players ranging from Tony Rice to Eric Clapton cannot be underestimated. Cheers, Michael |
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Subject: RE: Folk And Roll From: Jim Krause Date: 30 Aug 02 - 11:19 PM Jerry, Jerry, Jerry, Well I'm not as old as you & Art. But I do remember early rock 'n' roll and not being too impressed with it until the Beatles came along. And yes, I liked the Byrds, because McGuinn had a really interesting approach to that Rickenbacker 12 string, I thought. I still admire the clean, crisp sound of those recordings, compared to the mud I hear today. I guess too many technician's ears have been blown. I accepted these groups on their own merits. Same with old-time music, and bluegrass. I accepted that music on the merits of individual performers. There's some real crap out there. There's also some real gems, too. You just have to sift through it all. |
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Subject: RE: Folk And Roll From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 31 Aug 02 - 02:23 AM You're right Jim. There is a lot of crap out there today. That's always been the case. If you listen to any form of music, you'll hear it... including folk music. I'll take Chuck Berry or Buddy Holly over almost all of the early 60's folk revival stuff, though. I was as excited as anyone when folk music hit the charts... excited enough that I don't know that my ears were working as well as they should have been. In the end, it always DOES boil down to individual artists. I would no more buy a folk album because it was labeled as a folk album than I would buy a jazz album because it was in the jazz bin. It's not just the "folk" label that's meaningless in the commercial music business. I picked up a CD on eBay recently of "Gospel Music and hymns on jazz guitar" that had absolutely nothing to do with jazz. It was some guy (who also played the keyboards) doodling away on one string.. no chords even. Kinda like the Kenny G of guitar. Doodling doesn't make it jazz any more than an acoustic guitar makes it folk.
Art, by the way, is almost the opposite of me when it comes to rock and roll, rockabilly, rhythm and blues and the Beatles. If he even reads this thread, he'll add his own opinions. We ARE both old fogies, though. :-) Jerry |
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Subject: RE: Folk And Roll From: allanwill Date: 31 Aug 02 - 05:36 PM I've got a tape of Dave Burland in concert, just him and his guitar doing traditional ballads and stuff. Comes to the end of the concert, puts the guitar down and starts singing, in his best Martin Carthy impersonation, "iii-iit's wuh - unnn for the mahnee-ee and a twoooo for the show...........Blue Suede Shoes! It takes the audience a while to actually realise what he is singing but then they finally crack up laughing. Allan |
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Subject: RE: Folk And Roll From: Leadfingers Date: 31 Aug 02 - 06:14 PM I got into Folk Before I ever heard a 'Folk' song,cos we had singing sessions in the bar in the NAAFI in Germany that would knock a lot of Singaronds clear out of the ring When I actually got to hear folk songs I found that there was very little difference in what a mixed bunch of mostly R.A.F.guys would do and what a crowd of Folkies would do except that there were more 'funny'words from the servicemen.And wasnt it Burl Ives who was asked how he knew the song he had just sung was a Folk Song,and replied 'Ive never heard a horse sing it'.Made the Rough Music spots at the old Bracknell Festival a bit awkward as there weren't any songs I knew that I wouldnt do in a Folk Club.And ther still aren't.Incidentally,what about Dave Burland and Sid Kipper together? Early rock from Dave with Sid doing the Multi-Instrumental super star on all sorts of silly instruments like the Trunch Blow- Pipe. |
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Subject: RE: Folk And Roll From: GUEST,Fred Miller Date: 31 Aug 02 - 10:08 PM Michaelr, well, yes, I've heard a lot of vented hatred of Ian Anderson, from various quarters, from English folksters to young u.s. "spinners" of techno-something. So it seems to be as much a personal feeling as musical. There may be something to it, some of his weaker songs take a sort of smug moralizing tone, and I've sometimes wondered why he's never collaborated with someone like Roy Harper who he admires, outside of his bandleader role. Standing on one leg offends these people deeply. I learned a lot of his acoustic things because I liked them, and was a fan. But I try not to be anyone's fan anymore, in case I meet them, I think it would be socially awkward. I have friends whose work I like, but try to limit myself to respectful, observant comments, because I don't think my fanhood will be much use to them. Jerry, I wasn't sure I had said that one doesn't always play what they like, but I suppose I did. I was trying to say that I'm merely a dabbler compared to more mature musicians, other people here. I think it's just because you can't really be your own admirer, can't be on both sides of the looking glass. I just play for fun. For instance, I like some Buddy Holly tunes, know some, but don't know how he made them as interesting as he did. He'd do a simple love song, a simple sing-songy tune, but with a tone not quite sincere, but not ironic, a kind of teasing, self-aware, guarded tone that made it really credible and serious. And Chuck Berry had a kind of systemology, a sense of limits, and pushed energy into that limited vocabulary--to me that's a lot of what rock is, energy bottled within limits. It was exciting when rock started expanding in all directions, getting arty and virtuoso-istic, but it sort of stopped being rock as it opened out. Plato thought music was the highest art because it doesn't represent anything other than itself, doesn't represent things, but in some sneaky way it does, I think. It has a psychology, seems to be telling us something about ourselves, sometimes rings true, sometimes doesn't.
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Subject: RE: Folk And Roll From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 01 Sep 02 - 02:58 AM HI, Guest Fred:
One of my old heroes... Sal Salvadore, a jazz guitarist who played with Stan Kenton told me something very wise. I had really loved his playing as a teenager, only to discover when I was in my fifties that he was living in the same town that I had moved to. We got together a couple of times just to shoot the breeze, and I mentioned to him how excited I was that my all-time jazz guitar hero, Tal Farlow had released a new album after an absence of maybe twenty years. When Tal retired from recording and traveling, he was still a young man... maybe in his forties. He used to win the Downbeat poll every year as best jazz guitarist, and there was no competition. I had just about memorized every note of his records, so when I got his new album I was amazed that one of his "improvisations" was almost note for note one that was on a record recorded over twenty years ago (on a different song.) When I mentioned it to Sal, who is a close personal friend of Tal's, he said:
"A musician's style is the summation of his limitations."
I was even more amazed at the statement, because no one thought that Tal HAD any limitations.
You're right about Chuck Berry working within a limited framework... same thing for Buddy Holly and Fats Domino. While the comparison might offend some folkies, I think that I probably enjoyed that early rock and roll so much because it had that in common with folk music: often using that same three or four chord structure and projecting an immediacy to the music. Chuck sounded like you could approach him, as did Buddy and Fats.. they seemed like one of us, not a fabricated corporate image designed to fit in to whatever current mode of created music they've foisted off on the teenagers.
When "alternative Rock" became popular in the 90's over here, it grew up from the culture, and that's why it brought a freshness to the music I hadn't heard in a long time. The corporate world co-opted R.E.M., Nirvana, and all the others, but they never made them fit the mold. As soon as record sales started to weaken, they stopped promoting them, and they weren't played on the radio or MTV any more. Much like Merle Haggard and George Jones aren't played much any more.
That seems to be the cycle over here... music rises from the streets and towns, it is discovered by corporate executives (usually long after everyone else has discovered it,) promoted as the new thing and the moment record sales start to slip, it's jettisoned.
I didn't think that you said anything even vaguely like "one doesn't always play what they like"... although if you play or sing in a group, there are always songs that the group loves that you don't. But, I think that you can tell when someone is pouring their heart into a song, whether it's a recording by Buddy Holly, Charlie Poole, Kurt Cobain or Carmen McRae. That's what always grabs me, whether it's some old geezer who only recorded two songs on someone's collecting trip in the twenties, or Curt Cobain. Bet those two kinds of music have never been linked in the same sentence... :-)
I enjoyed all of your comments, Fred. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: Folk And Roll From: lady penelope Date: 01 Sep 02 - 12:38 PM Apart from the songs that I sang when a small child and had no idea were 'folk', I tended towards 'rock' anyway. Steeleye Span was one of the first folk bands I regularly listened to and I regarded them as folk/rock due to the amplification and emphasis on the bass line. As I got slightly older, I got into stuff like Led Zepplin ( and was considered weird at school as I wasn't into Duran Duran and Kajagoogoo ) Genesis and Supertramp. I think one of my best musical moments was when I listened to Led Zepplin III and heard them doing 'Hangman'. I loved the idea that a rock band could do a folk song and make it something different. It increased my enjoyment of both rock and folk. As I got even older, I heard more folk and more variations of it and the more I found to enjoy. The more I listen to rock and folk, the more I see how they very often feed off each other. Personally, I'm all for it and I don't see this as any threat to 'traditional' folk, as all these different streams of music offer different things to those performing and those appriciating them. TTFN M'Lady P. |
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Subject: RE: Folk And Roll From: jimmyt Date: 01 Sep 02 - 06:40 PM Jerry, and others, I just got back in town and I have a rehersal in 30 minutes so I don't have time to absorb this facinating thread yet! maybe this will revive it til I getback to it in a couple hours! |
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Subject: RE: Folk And Roll From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 02 Sep 02 - 12:56 AM Hi, Jimmyt:
I see that I wasn't the only one not able to get on the Mudcat last night. I thought that I'd check this one more time, and I see that there's a gap of a few hours when no one was getting on.
Always good to see the Cat back in the water.. :-) Jerry |
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Subject: RE: Folk And Roll From: Stewie Date: 02 Sep 02 - 02:27 AM You are dead right, Fred. Well said - 'energy bottled within limits'. That's exactly what I love about rockabilly. And not only the big names had this, but also the lesser lights and obscurities like Terry Clement, Warren Storm and dozens of others who recorded for Jay Miller and other small record producers who tapped into regional talent. Jack Earls' classics like 'Hey Jim' and Johnny Burnette and the Rock N' Roll Trio's Coral recordings are the ones that I like to take on car trips. And you are right too in saying that it is the tone that makes these simple songs interesting and credible. I think particularly of early Charlie Feathers - someone aptly said once that Feathers' voice could strip paint from the walls. A collection that I treasure to this day is an LP called 'The Best of Chess Rockabillies'. It reflected the Chess brothers small, but wonderful, incursion into the genre - Bobby Sisco, Dale Hawkins, Eddie Fontaine and others. However, the two tracks that stand above all the rest are by Mel Robbins - 'Save It' and 'Are You With Me'. Talk about bottled energy! Robbins later went to Nashville and contributed as a session musician to the development of the 'Nashville sound'. What a waste! --Stewie. |
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Subject: RE: Folk And Roll From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 02 Sep 02 - 02:54 AM Stewie: You're right about Chess records. They certainly weren't known for rockabilly, or rhythm and blues(now called doo wop) or gospel. I picked up a Best of Chess Gospel CD recently, and although Chess may not have recorded a lot outside of blues and early rock and roll, what they did record was fine stuff. I'd never heard of any of the names on the Chess black gospel CD but they were all great. Their Best of Rhythm and Blues groups has a lot of good stuff on it, too. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: Folk And Roll From: Stewie Date: 02 Sep 02 - 04:14 AM Jerry, as far as rockabilly was concerned, I don't think the Chess brothers actually produced much. What they did was purchase completed masters from smalltime southern labels and producers who were only too happy to receive the benefit of Chess distribution and promotion. They probably did the same with gospel - I don't know. But, as you say, what they did release in peripheral genres to their blues core operation was pretty fine. --Stewie. |
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Subject: RE: Folk And Roll From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 02 Sep 02 - 06:23 AM Stewie: The black gospel stuff was mostly Chicago based. It's surprising, in a way, that Chess didn't do more gospel as Thomas A. Dorsey operated out of Chicago and Mahalia Jackson, Roberta Martin and Sallie Martin all lived there... all major voices in black gospel. I doubt that there was much local rockabilly, though. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: Folk And Roll From: Bobert Date: 02 Sep 02 - 09:51 AM Well, good morning, Jerry. Did you think your ol' rockin' hillbilly wouldn't stop by thus thread? Now you've heard me so the following infuences won't coem as any surprise. The obvious ones: Elvis and Byddt Holly from the 50's, Dylan, the Bryds, John Prine and Neil Young from the 60's, the Greatful Dead, Poco and the Flring Burrito Bros. from the 70's, Phil Collins and U2 from the 80's, Pearl Jam and Live from the 90's, and currently have an ear on the likes of Creed. Now for the less obvious: the Monotones, Link Wray, Lloyd Price and the Bell Notes, from the 50's, Sones, Tull, Springfield, Ten Years After and Spooky Tooth from the 60's, not much more from the 70's or 80's, especially the 80's which I consdier to be a dead decade as far as new sound bit then the 90's... Ahhh, gee. Like Rock & Roll came alive again with the garage bands hookin' up with the likes of Neal Young, et al and lots of cool groups came out... Like Tesla, Mother Love Bone (Jerry going, "Yikes, get the stright jacket...") Cinderella and the beat goes on. (But Bobert, I thought you were into blues?) Okay, in 1998 I got tired of head banging and figured it was time to change directions so since then I've emersed myself in the pfre war music of the likes of Charlie Patton, Son House, Robert Johnson and post war sounds of Mississippi Fred McDowell (my fovorite), Lightnin' Hopkins, John Jackson, Buddy Guy, old Hendrix, et al. So, I guess for those of you who have heard any of my music the above noted journey might serve up as *my excuse*... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: Folk And Roll From: jimmyt Date: 02 Sep 02 - 01:49 PM Jerry! Finally got around to this thread. in fact, i was quite surprised when I first started reading this website that so many people seemed to be true puristsof one genre or the other. I feel that by far the vast majority of musicians come from very diverse directions and may grow in and out of various "sounds" When I was a kid, I thought there were no better sounds that Blood, Sweat and Tears, chicago Transit authotity (later Chicago,) and a one hit wonder group called Chase (Bet ya can't rememember the "one hit") Upon reflecting ,I found that the reason was that I was a trumpet player, and these groups were the first in the pop music area that used a lot of brass. No offense to the soul music afficiandos, but the brass licks in shat music were not too inspiring. I am always amazed that I have 3 grown children who share mine and my wife's eclectic tastes in music. If you look through their CD cases, they are a lot like mine, with folk, gospel, singer/songwriter, classic as well as the music that shares more commercial appeal in thier peer groups. I said last night that I didn't understand rap, so I can't get anything from it as an "art form" I also hate the commercial stuff we had in the 60's and 70's such as Living Strings doing THE Beatles music or Mantovani doing Simon and Grefunkle. THat stuff is really rough to handle. Most other crossover attempts I rather enjoy. (Ducking my head and runnign for cover) I liked Art Garfunkle's 40's and 50's standards an well as similar stuff by Willy Nelson and Lindal Ronstadt. Recently heard a fabulous torch song being belted out by a great female voice. I was at a party, and asked the DJ (a rather eclectic guy himself) who it was. He said "you'll never guess!" after many attempts proved fruitless, he showed me the CD case, it was Snead O' Conner! Just goes to show ya! Sometimes, I think there is a fine line between good music and commercial crap. |
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Subject: RE: Folk And Roll From: jimmyt Date: 02 Sep 02 - 02:04 PM Sorry ! I should proofread before posting! Should have said, No offense but the brass licks in THAT music! |
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Subject: RE: Folk And Roll From: alanabit Date: 02 Sep 02 - 04:28 PM I was born in 1955, so I was a sixties child rather than a sixties teenager. I can remember people like Adam Faith, Connie Francis, Frank Ifield, Neil Sedaka, Acker Bilk and Kenny Ball being pop stars before the Beatles. Of course, that was the watershed. The thrill of hearing the Beatles first hits and then one day the Rolling Stones doing "The Last Time". In one instant I understood why my parents hated them so much and why I would love them forever. Dylan, Byrds, Temptations, Kinks, Who, Fleetwood Mac and dozens of others came and went. Then I got to see my first live bands in the seventies and by the mid seventies I was a regular folk club attender. I wrote horrible ditties and insisted on performing them at people who were waiting for something more musical to happen. The great thing about the folk world was that you could get to talk to other people who were doing it and learn from them. I must have bored the ass off dozens of folkies, but so many of them gave me tips, tunings, licks etc which helped me along the way. I offer my belated apologies to those who suffered my racket back then, but I think I have now developed something worth passing on myself. Isn't that the value of this folk process? You get the chance to weave your own tapestry from all these different threads and then one day you have something of your own to chuck back into the pool don't you? |
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Subject: RE: Folk And Roll From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 02 Sep 02 - 05:30 PM Well said, Alanabit: I guess what has always struck me about the folk community is that while healthy egos roam the halls, it's a pretty accepting group of people. Because so many of us have gone through the process of hovering tentatively in the shadows before finally getting the guts to get up and play, we can be patient and encouraging with kids coming up. Everybody was nobody once. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: Folk And Roll From: Steve Parkes Date: 03 Sep 02 - 09:47 AM Ah, Jimmyt, how things change! Mantovani had a regular Sunday spot of the old BBC Light prog many years ago, but he started in the thirties (I think) with the then shocking idea of a big band that was all strings and no wind. It took him a long time to get that one past the commercial music-masters, but he made it in the end. It's sad that yesterday's Revolutionary should be perceived as today's Conservative! That's one of the reasons I try not to take an active dislike to music/musiscains/bands I don't actually like: I know there may be more to them than I'm aware of. (This reminds me of "Wagner's music is better than it sounds"!) Steve |
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Subject: RE: Folk And Roll From: alanabit Date: 03 Sep 02 - 10:20 AM Fair enough Steve - but I'll never need any excuse for hating Mantovani's music! |
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Subject: RE: Folk And Roll From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 03 Sep 02 - 10:37 AM Hey, Steve:
When I was a kid they had a radio program sponsored by Hartz Mountain bird food. My Mother loved to listen to it, because they played music by Montavani. At one point in the program (or maybe it was thw whole program) a sonorous voice would come on and say, "And now, as Montavani plays the beautiful strains of Ls Gondolier (or some other recording) the Hartz Mountain Canaries will join their beautiful voices in song..." I used to hate that program, even if Montavani wore a black leather jacket and drove a Harley. (As far as I know he didn't.)
Many years later when I was in college, I was sitting in a classroom as we all watched nervously as the professor was writing the questions for our final exam on the blackboard. As the questions were written, everyone's hearts sunk, and a couple of guys started whistling (like in a graveyard, I think.) So, I spoke in my best radio voice. "And now, as Montavani....." and everyone broke up laughing. I was obviously not the only one who had been force fed on Montavani when I was a kid.
Besides, how did they ever get the idea of having canaries sing when they played Montavani. I thought they used canaries in coal mines to give a warning by singing when something stunk. ;-)
I suppose that Liberace was a rebel too, but that doesn't mean I want to listen to his music.... Jerry |
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Subject: RE: Folk And Roll From: jimmyt Date: 03 Sep 02 - 11:40 AM I am beginning to agree with you more and more, Jerry! So in other words, "Now as the Limeliters play a beautiful rendition of "Yellow Bird," they will be joined by the now-out -of -retirement, Hartz Mountain canaries! |
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Subject: RE: Folk And Roll From: GUEST,Fred Miller Date: 03 Sep 02 - 11:54 AM I was able to get on here the other night, but my post kept timing out. Thanks Jerry, I think you set up a good thread in a really interesting way, and I'm happy to be tolerated among these other posts I'm enjoying. I ought to know more Tal Farlow than I do. I once came across a U.S. patent from the early 1990's of the tapping technique he invented back in the 40's or so. Which makes it invalid, of course, and odd besides-- Eddie Van Halen re-invented the technique after seeing a hammering trick at a Led Zepplin concert. I get the idea I'm not the only person who never caught on to punk, despite that I liked the reductive impulse, the sound, sometimes, but I suppose I felt too old for the lyrics. I keep hearing of stuff described as country/punk, but haven't heard much. Hank Williams III is doing something like that. And I saw an article about a college aquaintance, Fast Eddie Taylor, who I never knew played anything, just a kid who hung around the art school with a skateboard and a green mohawk. He said he used to come home from a punk gig and drive everyone off cranking up Johnny Cash records, had to actually learn to play guitar to broaden from punk, and he's married to an Everly Brother's daughter. It's a funny world.
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Subject: RE: Folk And Roll From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 03 Sep 02 - 01:13 PM And Hi, jimmyt: LOL (as they say on Mudcat.) Maybe we could come up with a whole thread that started out, "And now, listen as the Hartz Mountain Canaries sing along with...." A very funny idea... :-) I'd opt for Celine Dione Jerry
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Subject: RE: Folk And Roll From: jimmyt Date: 03 Sep 02 - 03:22 PM eminem would also go well with birds! |
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Subject: RE: Folk And Roll From: jimmyt Date: 03 Sep 02 - 03:26 PM Jerry, Read BS What's your day job thread! What's the correlation between you geologists and music...ecsept for the obvious, ROCK! jimmyt |
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Subject: RE: Folk And Roll From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 03 Sep 02 - 04:58 PM Jimmy: If you want more background on people, check out a thread I started a couple of months ago: What Do You Do In Real Life? If I can figure out how to do it, maybe I'll refresh it... Jerry |
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Subject: RE: Folk And Roll From: jimmyt Date: 03 Sep 02 - 05:04 PM I don't know how to access inactive threads! Hopelessly stupid with technical stuff! |
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