Where were the *psychics* on 9/11?

Subject: RE: Where were the *psychics* on 9/11?
From: Amos
Date: 03 Sep 02 - 06:48 PM

Wow!! It happened again!! I must really be psychic. I'm sure of it, because my premonition about asswipes posting on this thread has come true TWICE!!! TWICE!! This is REALLY amazing.

A

Subject: RE: Where were the *psychics* on 9/11?
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Sep 02 - 06:35 PM

I am not really clear on what you are trying to say, Taliesn, but what I meant was simply that all have innate abilities, which some I would consider gifts, and which most never tap into or "unwrap" to keep the gift analogy going. I didn't say I had to study an ancient discipline. I said the experiments therein proved things to my satisfaction. I do not accept things on blind faith and also learn better through doing things, rather than observation. Certainly, there are many paths; one need not follow and I would never presume to say so.

Subject: RE: Where were the *psychics* on 9/11?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 03 Sep 02 - 06:34 PM

Better get this in before my IQ reaches the point where I spell EVERYTHING as badly as "Shipi" (thanks Wolfgang)

I've often found that discussions like this (and ohhhh brother have I had a few, 'cause they're fun) tend to inevitably break down when the folks arguing strictly from personal experience run out of evidence. After all, how many times can you say "I'VE never seen a ghost"..."I'VE never caused objects to move"...."I'VE never had a vision of someone doing something a thousand miles away"....etc. On the other hand, someone can go on all night citing studies, papers, books, anecdotal evidence, even movies for Heaven's sake, all proving (to them) that psychic stuff DOES happen.

So, I'm in the category of never having had any of that good stuff happen to me......But, I HAVE seen, heard and read since I was a young teenager, thousands of instances where people take money from others by claiming that THEY have information that others don't.

I DID however spend an evening (in a concert hall) where a man bent spoons (with myself and ten or so others watching from three feet away), stopped and started several watches, and told several folks in the audience amazing personal things about themselves. He wasn't psychic...just a damn good magician (like Geller) named James (The Amazing) Randi

Fun thread.

Rick

Subject: RE: Where were the *psychics* on 9/11?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Sep 02 - 05:55 PM

The worst part of reading this thread is to realize how many idiots there are here on mudcat who believe this idiotic hogwash. And worse yet to realize that they may reproduce. If that is the case, the IQ of the human race is rapidly heading towards zero.

Subject: RE: Where were the *psychics* on 9/11?
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 03 Sep 02 - 02:30 PM

(quote) "incluidng witch-burning and other persecutions carried out over the centuries, punishing anyone who might have been a little "different" esp. by showing any of those ancient abilities."

Yeah , the Europeans sure have quite a history on that front and as robust as is their history of elites & commoner alike delving into the Occult for , shall we say , *unclean* purposes driven by the usual "human" desires one need not list here seeking amplification.

That is why care in the perfction of one's own human spirit by effective communing with one's higher spirit is always stressed otherwise it can be as miss-used a tool as any.

And I am *not* one of those who subscribe to the quaint idea that "tools are neutral". We become what we think and then the tools we chose there from. Unfortunately the *psychic* realm can no less be a source of exposure to corruption of the human spirit as any simply because "humans" practice it and unless one is "immune" to the short-comings of that human spirit the same flaws can become amplified.

(quote) "For myself, I've studied an ancient discipline which includes experiments which prove to my satisfaction that I am on the right path, psychic and all. "

It's *all* Intuitive vision tapping into what always is and one need not have studied *ancient disciplines* to experience it. I mean it's a *gift* .

Subject: RE: Where were the *psychics* on 9/11?
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Sep 02 - 12:51 PM

Harvey Andrews said, "They tell me the human brain uses but a small part of itself as yet, but it uses a lot more than it did a million years ago."

There are those of us who believe there are abilities of the human brain which have fallen into disuse due to various factors, incluidng witch-burning and other persecutions carried out over the centuries, punishing anyone who might have been a little "different" esp. by showing any of those ancient abilities.

As Peg said, I agree that everyone has the ability; they've just never developed it or aren't open to it, or have been scared into denying it, etc.

Proving the power of the mind is not an easy thing to do and I would never try to prove anything about it to anyone on here. We've had too many discussions which proved to me that most of the naysayers have made up their minds. For myself, I've studied an ancient discipline which includes experiments which prove to my satisfaction that I am on the right path, psychic and all.

Subject: RE: Quantum metaphysique'
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 03 Sep 02 - 10:35 AM

(quote) "......modern quantum physics is supportive of metaphysical claims ....." "Victor J. Stenger, The Unconscious Quantum: Metaphysics in Modern Physics and Cosmology, 1995.

Well , atleast for me , this path of convergence was first formally described by one Fritjof Capra ( Ph.D Theoratical Physics,Vienna) and his classic "The Tao of Physics: An Exploration of he Parallels Between Modern Physics and Eastern Mysticism"" first published in 1975. Ofcourse one can always add in the works of Tailhard de Chardin and Carl Jung , of a generation earlier , in defining where individual mind taps into and, draws from, a larger living *sphere of conciousness* .

I mean ,this is more than familiar ground for we artistic/creative folk because *we* are all working from what I prefer to refer to as *creative intuition*. Being a right-brained south pawed artist I know of this because I've been playing and working from this resource all my life and I ain't quite through with yet. The key term here is *intuition* which can *not* , as yet , be quantified , but exists as a documented experience and used as a tool / guide nonetheless.

Thus I find an amusing , perhaps unintended , combination of words arising from within the title of the book cited by Wolfgang: "The Unconscious _*Quantum: Metaphysics*_in Modern Physics and Cosmology*

I'm suggesting that somewhere suggested in that combination of words we will see the "formal" convergence of the disciplines of what is *physically measureable* and the *intuitively knowable*. Ofcourse how it wil be applied is *the* moral dilemna which will define *our* 21st Century experience.

Yep we're living in "interesting times" in the Chinese meaning so fasten your seatbelts folks.

Subject: RE: Where were the *psychics* on 9/11?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 03 Sep 02 - 10:16 AM

The GANZFELD experiment, developed by the late Charles Honorton, has been improved by the Koestler Unit in Edinburgh... Results of 36% compare with 25% expected by chance. (GUEST, 07:41 AM has copied this from the International Survivalist Society website)

That's a typical example how research becomes folklore in interested circles. Read here a 1999 abstract about the research on ganzfeld experiments from a research assistent of the Koestler Unit. It starts:
A group of recent, well-controlled ganzfeld studies failed to replicate the positive findings of earlier work (Milton & Wiseman, 1999a). This presents a challenge to claims that a ganzfeld psi effect can be replicated across experimenters under methodologically stringent conditions.

Similar points can easily be made for the other points. The actual data and procedures by which they are gathered are much less convincing and clear-cut than parapsychology researchers would wish.

Amos, I have cited Randi for the effect, but the actual case for the incompetence of Targ and Puthoff has been made by serious researchers (Marks, Kammann and some others). While I have only read small parts of Swann's description I have read all I could get about the Geller experiments in the SRI. That has convinced me that I don't trust these two (Targ and Puthoff) to perform a well controlled experiment in that field.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Where were the *psychics* on 9/11?
From: Amos
Date: 03 Sep 02 - 09:22 AM

Wolfgang:

I appreciate your point about double standards, I guess I have slipped into it sometimes. I was not asserting that the psyche cannot be tested; I was asserting that it is stupid to constrain such tests as though complete replicability, such as occurs in a simple physics experiment, were to be expected. The tests that examine ability are in particular on a slippery footing because -- well, because ability is not a particle. It varies with attention, intention, tolerance, and relevance to the being. The testing framework has to somehow take these factors into account.

As for Targ and Puthoff, I suggest Randi has an axe to grind; he made his name asserting that anything paranormal had to be a parlor stunt. I have read Swann's descriptions of the test conditions and while they are probably not 100% bulletproof against attack, I think they can be said to demonstrate reliable psi activity with real effects and/or perceptions being observed.

A

Subject: RE: Where were the *psychics* on 9/11?
From: Peg
Date: 03 Sep 02 - 09:06 AM

Wolfgang: I never said anything about it "supporting meaphysical claims." I was speaking about the theories that have to do with the mutable and insubstantial nature of time, and space.

Subject: RE: Where were the *psychics* on 9/11?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 03 Sep 02 - 08:05 AM

I'm glad this thread has come back now to serious discussion. The question in the title of the thread is legitimate, same as for instance a question like 'why has God not prevented this?' can be discussed seriously. Kat has given one possible though not very convincing answer (to the first question), namely those who did know didn't talk about it openly.

One of the most unexpected aspects of this thread was Amos making fun of psychic 'predictions' in a truly skeptical way. I really loved reading these posts, Amos.

However, I also saw what I consider a double-standard of argumentation re scientific proof. I know it from too many public and private discussions. In this thread, it is clearest in Amos' posts:

the psyche completely disobeys the unidirectionalnature of time on which physical proof methods depend

There have been documented cases under strict research conditions of remote viewing, and the remote influence by intention of buried sensors (see the Puthoff and Targ series of experiments conducted at Stanford Research...)

Now, what Targ and Puthoff did was experimenting under (presumably) controlled conditions, they counted successes and compared the number with chance level, they used a 'physical proof' method and published in 'Nature'.

Why do you cite research you consider supportive, Amos, if you think that the psyche completely disobeys laws that are assumed to hold by those using physical proof methods? If that thought is correct you are right in not accepting research evidence to the nonexistence but at the same time there is no use in citing supportive evidence for it should be as irrelevant as unsupportive is in your thinking.

I encounter this double-standard very often. A person I met cited evidence for the effect of some herbs. The evidence was completely in the physical proof tradition: The number of successes was counted and compared with a control. When it was pointed out to her that the research cited has some flaws and the controls were not adequate and that other reasearch had not found any positive effect, she quickly fell back into the 'well it has real effects, but by the poor methods of so called science can't show them'.

Cite scientific research that is supportive and claim that the phenomenon is inaccessible for science when unsupportive evidence is mentioned. That's the way I have encountered too often to be fooled by it.

Just for the record:
(1) Targ and Puthoff are not taken very serious now even in the parapsychological community. They had too many flaws in their experimental set-ups. The verdict 'the Laurel and Hardy of Psi-research' (Randi) is a bit unfair though.
(2) Rick: Shippi is Shipi actually
(3) Peg: That modern quantum physics is supportive of metaphysical claims more than on a completely superficial level of similarity of words (in the sense of 'All is relative', even Einstein has found) is the opinion of a tiny minority. For another view read e.g. Victor J. Stenger, The Unconscious Quantum: Metaphysics in Modern Physics and Cosmology, 1995.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Where were the *psychics* on 9/11?
From: harvey andrews
Date: 03 Sep 02 - 07:48 AM

Peg, my mind is open. I'm naturally curious. I would love to believe, believe me! I accept totally that there are things we cannot explain, I just don't find it easy to accept current explanations!As a student I did the old Ouija board experiment. Blidfolded i felt a glass whiz around under my finger. It spelled out that we had apparantly got in touch with William Shakespeare. We were English students at a Coventry college and it was Will's birthday week. I came off the glass, my friends were blindfolded and I watched the glass whiz around to spell out that he didn't write "Corialanus". Now some of us believed we'd got in touch with Will, some of us believed we hadn't and it was all fake, but I think our controls were good enough that it wasn't fake and I can't explain it. I don't believe it was Will, but it might have been the will-power of those of us in the room. My Grandmother in New Zealand dreamed she saw my father fall down the stairs of a bus and lie inert on the floor just after my mother in England was told he was probably dying. She telegramed my mother to ask if all was okay. Unexplainable.They tell me the human brain uses but a small part of itself as yet, but it uses a lot more than it did a million years ago. Maybe the brain is like the Titanic, a series of compartments set to give way and flood under pressure of time and knowledge leading to new super powers for the human race. Who Knows? I just don't feel excited by the so-called proofs of all these so-called phenomena that are placed before us at the moment. I think when the real thing happens we'll all know very quickly that something outside the norm has taken place. Until then I watch, wait, listen and, like Rick respect scepticism.

Subject: RE: Where were the *psychics* on 9/11?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Sep 02 - 07:41 AM

Nicked from a parapsychology website - experiments which have shown positive results for psychic abilities:

1) The SHEEP/GOATS effect. 'Sheep' are people who are relatively open-minded and are ready to at least accept the possibility of something new, and 'goats' are those who dig their heels in. The 'sheep' score significantly higher in card guessing experiments.

(2) The DECLINE effect. If you ask a person to guess 100 packs of Zener cards, their scores decline as they get bored until, nearing the end of the task, their scores improve again. Prof. Roy showed how the graph of scores differed from chance results.

(3) The HELMUT SCHMIDT effect. An arrangement of nine lights lit up randomly, driven by the radioactive decay of Strontium-90. People were asked to guess which lamp would light up next. A follow-up experiment with nine lights in a circle showed that people could force the lamps to light in a clockwise sequence, an example of psycho-kinesis or P.K.

(4) The GANZFELD experiment, developed by the late Charles Honorton, has been improved by the Koestler Unit in Edinburgh. People in a daydream existence, their senses diminished by diffuse light and sound, attempt to describe pictures which are being viewed in another room. Results of 36% compare with 25% expected by chance. Over many studies, this represents a chance of one in ten million.

Subject: RE: Where were the *psychics* on 9/11?
From: GUEST,Bagpuss
Date: 03 Sep 02 - 07:28 AM

I just wanted to point out that just because something is seen as outside of the conventional scientific wisdom, that doesn't mean that it is not amenable to scientific study. Psychic phenomena are being studied scientifically at a number of universities, including Edinburgh. One famous psychology experiment, which I believe has been replicated a number of times, shows that those who believe in paranormal phenomena actually perform better in tests of psychic abilities, performing slightly above chance levels. This suggests that there is something in what they believe, and that psychic experiments should take into account the beliefs of the subjects.

Peg said "For example, one of the main arguments against the efficacy of herbal remedies is that they have not and in some cases cannot be "proven" to be effective (and so remain unregulated by the FDA), but ONLY because the scientific testing grounds, set up for synthetic drugs and those manufactured in a laboratory, cannot encompass the many variables inherent in botanical substances. This includes differing concentrations of various chemical constituents which vary from crop to crop, given variations in weather, climate, soil, growing conditions, harvesting, drying and preservation tachniques, etc. But just because science cannot effectively measure the effectiveness of these substances in ways that suit their methods, doesn't mean they don't work...Ask anyone who has used chamomile to sleep, guarana to be more alert, willow bark for a headache, raspberry leaves for menstrual cramps, fennel for an upset stomach... "

If the variables you mention would have so much of an effect that the substance tested did not show a clear effect in experiments, that is a sign that ordinary people taking these herbs might have a similarly inconsistent experience. If it is the case that a particular way of growing/drying/preserving etc is important in the effect the herb has, then that is the form of the herb that should be tested - and then surely a significant advantage (over placebo) would be shown for these substances if they are in fact beneficial. Its not that science cannot effectively measure the effectiveness, but that trials to date have not taken into account all the variables they need to control. That is a fault with scientists, not with the scientific method.

Bagpuss

Subject: RE: Where were the *psychics* on 9/11?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Sep 02 - 06:10 AM

I took it that Amos was using the term pro-life there to point the inherent contradiction of those who claim to be pro-life but who support the death penalty. (Analogous to the contradiction of those who oppose the death penalty but have no problems with abortion.)

Subject: RE: Where were the *psychics* on 9/11?
From: Peg
Date: 03 Sep 02 - 02:20 AM

good points all, Amos, and I agree that denial is one of the emotional building blocks of contemporary society, but I feel compelled to point out that "anti-abortion" and "Pro-life" have the same meaning for those in this movement...I know you knew that and mistyped, just wanted to put that thought form out there...

Peg

Subject: RE: Where were the *psychics* on 9/11?
From: Amos
Date: 03 Sep 02 - 12:19 AM

Excuse me, Kevin -- I was shorthanding -- p'raps even stereotyping -- to make a point. Perhaps I should have said a rabid Muslim extemist? Of course, any human capable of rational discourse would incline as you describe, regardless of his metaphysics. I wa smaking a different point altogether, but I am sorry I used a stereotype in my hurry.

A

Subject: RE: Where were the *psychics* on 9/11?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Sep 02 - 07:53 PM

"Ask a vehement Muslim about the beauties of the American social experiment" - the fact that someone is a Muslim and vehement doesn't in itself tell you what they think about the American social experiment.

I'm sure you could find Muslims who would wax enthusiastically about the beauties of the American social experiment, just as you can found Christians who feel the same. And they'd probably point to ways in which some of its underlying principles reflect the values expressed in their Holy Book. (And in both cases the wisest among them might then go on to lament the ways in which it has been undermined and distorted and betrayed.)

Subject: RE: Where were the *psychics* on 9/11?
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 02 - 07:37 PM

Hard to believe, Peg?

Think about filters for a minute -- the constructs we use to keep out information we can't align according to our current preferred assumptions and our comfort zones. Ask a baseball-addicted flag-waving patriot about the beuaty of the Koran, and see what the process returns. Ask a vehement Muslim about the beauties of the American social experiment, an anti-abortion acitivist about the transcendant power of choice, or a pro-life activist about the transcendant sanctity of living forms. Selective denial is part of our makeup. Everyone uses blackout curtains in some of the rooms of their mansion. Well -- almost everyone, maybe. Everyone I know does, including myself and some of the most intelligent, aware, curious people I've ever met.

You can be someone who chooses to filter out phenomena that hasn't met material protocols of proof, as a way to reduce the pain and confusion of a universe too wildly random to face.

You can be someone who chooses to filter out the existence of people who don't (or 'can't') allow in phenomena they can't readily explain. It's the same black swamp-paint being used on a different window, is all...

luv,


A

Subject: RE: Where were the *psychics* on 9/11?
From: Peg
Date: 02 Sep 02 - 07:22 PM

Harvey, try reading about quantum physics sometime. Contemporary scientists have pretty near agreed upon the odd and sobering fact that time and matter simply may not exist as we have always thought they did...

The idea that something must yield itself to a quantified "proof" in order to be accepted as true is problematic, to say the least.

For example, one of the main arguments against the efficacy of herbal remedies is that they have not and in some cases cannot be "proven" to be effective (and so remain unregulated by the FDA), but ONLY because the scientific testing grounds, set up for synthetic drugs and those manufactured in a laboratory, cannot encompass the many variables inherent in botanical substances. This includes differing concentrations of various chemical constituents which vary from crop to crop, given variations in weather, climate, soil, growing conditions, harvesting, drying and preservation tachniques, etc. But just because science cannot effectively measure the effectiveness of these substances in ways that suit their methods, doesn't mean they don't work...Ask anyone who has used chamomile to sleep, guarana to be more alert, willow bark for a headache, raspberry leaves for menstrual cramps, fennel for an upset stomach...

In much the same way, psychic phenomena are unquantifiablle according to standardized methods of measurement or testing...and so, in many cases, will remain "unproven." This makes them no less real.

I find it hard to believe that any human being could be on the planet for any length of time and not have accepted that a whole lot happens to us that we simply don't have a cut and dried explanation for...

Subject: RE: Where were the *psychics* on 9/11?
From: DougR
Date: 02 Sep 02 - 06:07 PM

Taliesn: Just a word of friendly advice should you ever again find yourself in our neighborhood. Never hint that Scottsdale is a part of Phoenix. That is a very good way to get a very short haircut out here. In the old days they called it, "scalping." :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: Where were the *psychics* on 9/11?
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 02 - 05:54 PM

Well, Harvey, I appreciate your clear-eyed integrity a great deal. My only argument is that we need to keep our minds -- as well as our eyes -- open for insights into those phenomena we have no decent paradigm for.   I am sure you'll find plemty of anecdotal evidence indicating that "the first event correctly predicted" has happened a large number of times; the question is of course what is simple extrapolation, and what, if anything transcends those bounds.

I agree completely with the gullibility of humans in general, and the problenm is made more difficult by the ready plasticity of the mind to create impressions of perceptions it wants to perceive, rather than being clear about what it has perceived, and when.

These things are complications to a difficult field, but I do think it would be an error to try to jam the phenomenology of psychic events into a material framework when seeking proof. There have been documented cases under strict research conditions of remote viewing, and the remote influence by intention of buried sensors (see the Puthoff and Targ series of experiments conducted at Stanford Research using various subjects including Ingo Swann, 1979-1984 if memory serves).

To do so would be similar to rejecting physical evidence of planetary orbits because ti didn't jive with someone's version of the divine revealed truth; it is a serious fallacy to mis-sort data into the wrong classes.


Very best regards,


A

Subject: RE: Where were the *psychics* on 9/11?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 02 Sep 02 - 05:51 PM

Hmmmmmm, well spoken Harvey. My criterion has always been: If someone has a 'gift' or belief, and no apparent alterior motive, I'll listen very carefully to what they have to say. The moment that either finances or "duty to convince" enter the picture, I become like you, very skeptical.

Strictly from a secular point of view (safer that way)...many thousands of people believed that Uri Geller was an actual psychic even AFTER he'd been thoroughly exposed as a fraud (along with his little accomplice Shippi)

I, on the other hand believe that playing a six string F chord is the ONLY way to true happiness!

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: Where were the *psychics* on 9/11?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Sep 02 - 05:32 PM

This is drift on my part, but it seems a natural enough drift.

The truth is these things always come out of the blue unpredictable, and then looking back they seem inevitable, and it seems strange that people lived through the times leading up to them sleepwalking, as if they must have known what was coming.

The months leading up to the First World War are a classic example. In a secondhand bookshop I once came across a book (I don't mean a book about it, I mean the actual physical book) in which young people at a New Year party had been writing down their signatures in ink, and playing a party game involving signatures. The idea was, you write the name along the line, and then fold the paper along the line - the strangest patterns emerge. It was New Year 1914, and the name of the game, written in the book, was "Ghosts of My Friends."

Subject: RE: Where were the *psychics* on 9/11?
From: harvey andrews
Date: 02 Sep 02 - 05:32 PM

Amos the human race is soooo gullible that proof of a belief is the only way I can work. When the first alien makes real contact, when the first event is correctly predicted, when the first crop circle is filmed in the making, when the Madonna's tears are analysed, when the aubergine really does contain the Koran,when the first evangelical meeting "miracle" really is permanent regained sight or tumour disappearance leading to a long life,when Elvis sings again!!! I'm just an old sceptic who would love to "believe". I have many believer friends and they seem happier in many ways than I feel myself but somehow these damned eyes of mine keep seeing the Emperor with no clothes on. Can't help it. Just the way I am. A confirmed believer in non-believing.

Subject: RE: Where were the *psychics* on 9/11?
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 02 - 02:54 PM

Proof in the matter of individual perception is a pretty slipper slope, Harvey! It is really tricky to use the disciplines of repeatability and peer confirmation on something as plastic, volatile and non-conforming with material attributes as the human psyche. For just one thing there is a good body of evidence that the psyche completely disobeys the unidirectionalnature of time on which physical proof methods depend! (See Larry Dossey's books on the non-local nature of personal influence).

But the fact that material protocols are difficult to use in proving things about it certainly does not support the notion that "it" doesn't even exist!! :>)

A

Subject: RE: Where were the *psychics* on 9/11?
From: harvey andrews
Date: 02 Sep 02 - 02:50 PM

"It is believed" Peg explains. Exactly.And the human race and its various tribes believe in many, many things from extra terrestrial caused crop circles to psychic phenomena. The word to look for always is "proven".

Subject: RE: Where were the *psychics* on 9/11?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Sep 02 - 01:41 PM

Cassandra, daughter of Priam King of Troy, had the double burden of being able to forsee bad things happening, and of never being believed when she tried to warn people.

Subject: RE: Where were the *psychics* on 9/11?
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 02 - 11:42 AM

I had a premonition some asswipe would add to this thread!! Now look!!


Amazing, huh???


A

Subject: RE: Where were the *psychics* on 9/11?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Sep 02 - 07:15 PM

Too bad all the people in the world that believe in psychic bullshit wern't in the basement of the twin towers last 9/11. Sure would have improved the worlds gene pool.

Subject: RE: Where were the *psychics* on 9/11?
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Sep 02 - 05:41 PM

well, *I* think the person that REALLY has her psychic 'shtick' going right is that "Pet Psychic" I have seen on TV lately!....she looks DEEP into the eyes of yer favorite dog, parrot, horse, alligator..(yes, alligator!), or hamster, and tell you what it's problems are and how happy it is with you!........and you know what?...not one pet has EVER said she's wrong!

Such a deal!...Dionne Warwick shoulda tried this...she might still be going!

Subject: RE: Where were the *psychics* on 9/11?
From: Gareth
Date: 01 Sep 02 - 03:36 PM

Mmmm ! Taliesn - A well known Celtic Bard - Didn't see Edward comming, or the death of Llewellyn the Great.

Now a fortnight before the explosion,
To the shot firer Tomlinson cried
'If you fire that shot, we'll all be in hell!'
And no one can say that he lied!"

Gareth

Subject: RE: Where were the *psychics* on 9/11?
From: RichM
Date: 01 Sep 02 - 03:26 PM

Many different believers and non-believers meet on forums like this. I see no point in trying to "convert" anyone through intellectual discussion. It's like talking about music: It sure ain't the same thing as playing or listening to it!

We are all branches of the same tree, but trying to explain to a "root" what it's like to be a " leaf" is problematic.

If you are at all interested in phenomena psychic, you'll find them--unless you are simply starting out from the premise of "disproving" them.
Live and let live, I say...

Subject: RE: Where were the *psychics* on 9/11?
From: Amos
Date: 01 Sep 02 - 10:31 AM

Whut we hayuve hyere is a faylure to cuh-MOON-ikate, boys.

:>) Good thing this isn't a music thread, huh?

A

Subject: RE: Where were the *psychics* on 9/11?
From: Peg
Date: 01 Sep 02 - 09:07 AM

Dear still-anonymous GUEST:

I never accused you of being anyone. Since you refuse to actually offer an identity it would be hard to disprove in any case.

Your sarcasm and continued passive-aggressive words do not serve as an "end" to anything as you clearly still want to have the last word and impress everyone with your affected verbal prowess (I would still look for that dictionary if I were you).

Subject: RE: Finally we're in agreement
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 01 Sep 02 - 07:46 AM

(quote) "But I think the original poster of the thread was commenting on those "legitimate" and professional psychics who make a living from predicting the coming year's big events...and why such people had no inkling this would happen, or if they did, they did not share it with the rest of us."

Finally perfect clarity and agreement. (Took awhile, but I was hoping for some "positive" closure ) Now why couldn't this have been your original response?

This is precisely what I was getting at with hopes that a little humor could have arisen in the process.

I'm only too happy to let this ringing flash of *understanding* to serve as a positive end of the subject. Next time just plain ask if someone is , or is not, whom you *think* they are before then electing to go on the personal attack. No one likes it . And I far prefer the cordiality of honest kidding that comes from a presense of commraderie rahter than raw *provocation* that I failed in governing my own passion-of-the-moment and giving into it.

Like I said, my New York Irish heritage don't take no crap either.

peace

Subject: RE: Where were the *psychics* on 9/11?
From: Galatians2:20
Date: 01 Sep 02 - 12:27 AM

Amen.

Subject: RE: Where were the *psychics* on 9/11?
From: Peg
Date: 01 Sep 02 - 12:23 AM

there seems to be two ideas afloat here: one, that psychics may have known something yet said nothing and that people are angered by that...and two, that even if someone did have psychic visions of 9-11 they should not be called to task for having said nothing.

But I think the original poster of the thread was commenting on those "legitimate" and professional psychics who make a living from predicting the coming year's big events...and why such people had no inkling this would happen, or if they did, they did not share it with the rest of us.

I think it is pointless to follow this line of inquiry any further. Better to look at WHY this happened and find ways to prevent it happening again. The damage is done and now we have to try and learn something from it.

Subject: RE: Where were the *psychics* on 9/11?
From: Galatians2:20
Date: 01 Sep 02 - 12:12 AM

Hi Peg,

What I meant (sorry for jumping in so quickly) was that there seem to be people that were VERY unforgiving in their attitude towards the psychic community... I am sure there are many people who claim psychic ability who were saddened by their own failure to say anything... When we say that they were "at fault" for not shouting their psychic visions from the rooftops, we are "volunteering" them against their wills as people who represent the rest of us without asking the psychic folks if they want that burden... I hope that made a little more sense...

Peace,

2:20

Subject: RE: Where were the *psychics* on 9/11?
From: Peg
Date: 31 Aug 02 - 11:56 PM

huh?

Is it me or did that last post make no sense?

Is our GUEST suffering from schizophrenia as well as delusions of grandeur?

I am not sure who here is "volunteering people against their will (or knowledge)"...when did this occur?

The passive-aggression is so thick in here you can cut it with a knife.

Subject: RE: Where were the *psychics* on 9/11?
From: Galatians2:20
Date: 31 Aug 02 - 11:49 PM

Wow...

I am a Christian... from the chill in this place I had better keep my trap shut, huh? I'm new here and I wouldn't want to get ripped to shreds so soon... better not have any personal spiritual onvictions of my own or the first time I make a mistake, someone might tear me all up like they just did the psychic community... since when did being psychic or being anything besides perfect automatically make you a "voice of the people"? I know PLENTY of "spiritual" types who do not want to be a fountainhead of knowledge for the rest of humanity... so stop volunteering people to do so against their will (or knowledge).

2:20

Subject: RE: Where were the *psychics* on 9/11?
From: Peg
Date: 31 Aug 02 - 11:31 PM

Mickey, I have only seen John Edwards once and I am normally skeptical of anyone doing this sort of thing on TV. But I did think he was rather remarkable. Very natural and unassuming, seems to really think what he has is a gift to be shared.

GUEST: Ya know, you are a perfect example of a person who likes to use big fat high-falutin' words but has no idea what they're talking about. I don't know if the pretentious rhetoric is some way of disguising your identity from your other GUEST posts on Mudcat and don't really care. But I can't take your passive-agressive attack on me seriously because, well, your command of the English language is just not what you seem to think it is.

Free tip: Lose the anonymity and maybe someone will be interested in your opinions.

Subject: RE: Where were the *psychics* on 9/11?
From: Mickey191
Date: 31 Aug 02 - 10:50 PM

Folks, Can't we all just get along? Peg, and others,I'm interested in your opinion of John Edwards I have seen him do some remarkable readings. It's hard for me to believe it is trickery. I have seen others who have good standing in the physic world but whose readings are laughable. What say you?

Subject: RE: Peg, finally some clarity
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 31 Aug 02 - 10:32 PM

(quote) "The chosen moniker of our "guest" is the same as one used by a notorious pariah/shit-starter in the pagan community who used to cause all sorts of trouble on Usenet...so, yeah, I do have my suspicions."

So you came to this thread armed with some preloaded attitudes that I've had *zero* to do with. Honestly I wouldn't know you from Eve online or otherwise. I was responding in kind to the way you chose to express the baggage that you borught to the thread.

For your reocrds; I chose the name *Taliesn*, with its purposely altered spellng from the traditional name *Taliesin*, because I'm a Frank Lloyd Wright afficianado and always enjoyed the meanings that Mr.Wright drew upon when deciding on that naming of his Lloyd Jones ancenstral estate of land in Spring Green,Wisconsin.

I finally had the pleasure of digital videotaping my entire visit to his "Taliesin West" in the Scottsdale section of Phoenix,Arizona last September 22.

I chose the omitted "i" spelling of Taliesn because I orginally used it as a password that required no more than 7 letters.

(quote) "Not that it matters."

Apparently it still matters rather acutely.

(quote) " But the level of personal remarks directed at me tells me this person has perhaps done some searching around about me and I find that pathetic. "

Then why didn;t you just plain ask me, *directly*? It's just amusing that the thought of the cause for my personal remarks being "directed at you" of having anything to do with your "jumping to conclusions" and immediately attacking never entered your mind. Best to attack first and damn the possibility of a mistake., Eh? To then further attempt to justify your bringing your personal grudge-match here because you believe it has now *followed* you here raises an entirely new question about what one may deem pathetic.

In conclusion, I have , nor have I ever had, anything to do with harassing *any* spiritual groups, pagan or otherwise, on messageboards.......though I have had a couple of rather spiritied *email* debates with some rather defensive Scientologists, but that 's another space in another time.

I trust where I coming from is now rendered crystaline.

Subject: RE: Where were the *psychics* on 9/11?
From: Amos
Date: 31 Aug 02 - 09:46 PM

Well, given the volume, and quality of the impassioned dissertation, I guess ya coulda seen it coming there would be one lil error in it. The Chinese ancients used to mar their jade and ceramic art pieces intentionally in some small way so the universe wouldn't get pissed at them for presuming perfection. Intersting brand of humility, i guess. So you're in great company!


A

Subject: RE: Where were the *psychics* on 9/11?
From: Peg
Date: 31 Aug 02 - 09:41 PM

oops! That penultimate sentence should read "THis is clearly by nature's DESIGN."

peg

I had a feeling there would be a typo in that post, heh heh...

Subject: RE: Where were the *psychics* on 9/11?
From: Peg
Date: 31 Aug 02 - 09:39 PM

Precognitive visions and dreams are well-documented phenomena. I have had them myself. I am far from delusional. Deluded, perhaps. But not delusional. ;)

It is believed that anyone can nurture their metaphysical abilities. They are simply more dormant in some people than in others. Just as a natural athlete has to work less hard than someone who is naturally more inclined to be somewhat clumsy or slow or lacking in dexterity.

That is not to say that there aren't scam artists out there, or, in some cases, true psychics who have decided to make a profit on their ability and thereby corrupt their gift. But there are certainly a great many individuals out there who are more psychically aware and attuned than others. Witches and other magic practitioners spend a great deal of time trying to nurture these skills, which can be used in divination and towards various modes of self-transformation. Sometimes it is subtle, as when one has a gift for interpreting the tarot but is unable to develop an aptitude for psychometric activity. And there is a difference among the various psychic arts: clairvoyancy is not psychometric ability is not precognition is not aura-reading...well, you get the idea.

We spend a third of our lives asleep, part of that time dreaming. A great deal of psychic activity occurs while we dream. This is clearly by nature's deign. Who are we to poo poo it?

Subject: RE: Where were the *psychics* on 9/11?
From: Amos
Date: 31 Aug 02 - 09:11 PM

Clinton --

Y'know usually I have a lot of respect for the things you post. But the notion that a psychic gift must be a delusion (I ain't saying it CAN'T be a delusion) is awfully arrogant. As you probably know the last twenty years of intense study of AI and cogntiive science, as the eggheads call it, have failed to turn up a viable explanation for the phenomenon of awareness, and the remearkable gap between signal relays (as in nerves and other kinds of cells) and understanding/consciousness/awareness.

In the absence of such a model, it would seem awfully presumptuous to dictate to others what they may or may not be aware of, given that you have no way to tell where those boundaries are without an explanation for the phenomenon.

Given that better minds than mine have wrestled long and hard witht his issue and been unable to come up with a model that explains it, I would think twice before making a remark such as yours above, for fear of looking like a really arrogant yahoo rather than a thinking and intelligent person...

Honi soit qui mal y pense, I guess. Somethign like that.


A

Subject: RE: Where were the *psychics* on 9/11?
From: Peg
Date: 31 Aug 02 - 08:51 PM

Amos;

Not a bad day, especially. I just thought the initial question was dumb. And it did remind me of the afore-mentioned idiot.

The chosen moniker of our "guest" is the same as one used by a notorious pariah/shit-starter in the pagan community who used to cause all sorts of trouble on Usenet...so, yeah, I do have my suspicions. Not that it matters. But the level of personal remarks directed at me tells me this person has perhaps done some searching around about me and I find that pathetic.

thanks, BTW.

peg

Subject: RE: Where were the *psychics* on 9/11?
From: Amos
Date: 31 Aug 02 - 08:46 PM

Nicole:

Dying doesn't make you smarter; but once you get used to the condition you get a lot more to know about, since you aren't running everything through the amazingly thick filtering system of the body/current identitiy complex. It's a basic survival mechanism to shout out a lot of possible information when running a human-class identity, because it really has a very weak bandwidth tolerance, so to speak.

Peg: y'all having a bad day out there? Or just tired of putting up with noise? I'd accept any apologies offered, myself, in the interests of toning down the seriousness of things. But that's jes' me.

A