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Help: Careless Love / Bunch of Thyme

DigiTrad:
CARELESS LOVE
THYME IT IS A PRECIOUS THING


Related threads:
(origins) Origins: Let No Man Steal Your Time / Thyme (92)
(origins) Lyr Add: Careless Love (various versions) (39)
Origins: Bunch of Thyme (15)
Loveless/Careless Love- WC Handy (31)
Lyr Req: Careless Love (Dr John) (2)
African- American folksong by Odum 1911 (7)
Lyr Req: Let No Man Steal Your Thyme (June Tabor) (12)
Lyr Req: Now my apron strings don't tie (12)
Lyr Req: Careless Love (Bessie Smith version) (35)
Tune Req: Thyme It Is a Precious Thing (3)


Leadfingers 31 Aug 02 - 05:44 PM
Malcolm Douglas 31 Aug 02 - 10:08 PM
masato sakurai 01 Sep 02 - 12:04 AM
masato sakurai 01 Sep 02 - 12:26 AM
Mr Red 01 Sep 02 - 01:37 PM
Leadfingers 02 Sep 02 - 01:53 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Sep 02 - 02:20 PM
Leadfingers 03 Sep 02 - 07:18 PM
Cruiser 06 Oct 06 - 01:30 PM
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Subject: Careless Love / Bunch of Thyme
From: Leadfingers
Date: 31 Aug 02 - 05:44 PM

Can any Catters out there help with this one? Where did the tune for the song Bunch of Thyme come from and does it predate W C Handy's Careless Love ? When I used to play very bad Jazz sax and clarinet,I blew some right codswallop on Careless Love,then got turned on to Folk,and found the same tune as a TRADITIONAL song.And It wasn't Traditional Jazz.


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Subject: RE: Help: Careless Love / Bunch of Thyme
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 31 Aug 02 - 10:08 PM

Try typing careless love into the very useful "Digitrad and Forum Search", which you will find on the main Forum page. bunch of thyme, too, for that matter.

You'll be amazed.


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Subject: RE: Help: Careless Love / Bunch of Thyme
From: masato sakurai
Date: 01 Sep 02 - 12:04 AM

From: James J. Fuld, The Book of World-Famous Music, 4th ed. (Dover, 1995, p. 163):

Words of this song, one of the earliest blues, appeared in Howard W. Odum, "Folk-Song and Folk-Poetry as Found in the Secular Songs of the Southern Negroes" in Journal of American Folklore, Lancaster, Pa., and New York, N.Y., July-Sept., 1911, p. 286, under the title Kelly's Love; ULS, p. 1435. Words also appeared in 1915 under the title Careless Love in Perrow, p. 147, with a notation "From Mississippi; country whites; MS of R. J. Slay; 1909." As "Kelly's" and "Careless" have similar sounds, one is probably a corruption of the other; but which came first is not known.
The music (and words) were published on Jan. 1, 1921, under the title Loveless Love, a "Blues Ballad," with music and words attributed to W. C. Handy. First edition: Front cover has a drawing of a girl's face in a heart and is orange, black and white. The publisher is Pace & Handy Music Co. Inc., 232 West 46th Street, New York, N.Y. m. on pp. 2-5. Back cover adv. Pace.. No price or plate number. LC(CDC), NYPL and JF.

W.C. Handy copyrighted "Careless Love" (1926) and "Loveless Love" (1921) separately. Both versions are in Blues: An Anthology, edited by W.C. Handy (1926; 1949; Macmillan, 1972, pp. 55 & 146-149). Abbe Niles wrote notes (pp. 206 & 212):

Careless Love
An old and very widely known lament, called also Kelly's Love, under which title a version (without music) appears in Odum and Johnson, page 194. So far as is known, first published with its music in the original edition of this book. Careless Love, despite loose references to it in some books, is obviously not a blues. It was, however, married to the blues in Handy's Loveless Love (page 146), whose introductory section is pure blues--and pure Handy. He himself had heard and played the original tune of Careless Love as early as 1892, in Bessemer, Alabama.

Loveless Love
This is the ancient Careless Love in a series of arrangements prefaced by an original Handy blues (not only one of his best, but unusual in the total ansence of the "blue note"); the words are on a theme suggested to Handy by the discourse of a street-corner Jeremiah on 44th Street, New York; the concluding blues lines, however, may be compared with the folk-verse Nora's Faithful Dove, at page 13.

See also The Traditional Ballad Index: Careless Love, with little info on the origin.

~Masato


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Subject: Lyr Add: KELLY'S LOVE
From: masato sakurai
Date: 01 Sep 02 - 12:26 AM

From: Howard W. Odum and Guy B. Johnson, The Negro and His Songs (1925; Negro Universities Press, 1968, pp. 194-195; without music):

KELLY'S LOVE

Love, Kelly's love,
Love, Kelly's love,
Love, Kelly's love.
You broke de heart o' many a girl,
You never break dis heart o' mine.

When I wo' my aprons low,
When I wo' my aprons low,
When I wo' my aprons low,
Couldn't keep you from mo do'.

Now I weahs my aprons high,
Sca'cely ever see you passin' by.

Now I weahs my aprons to my chin,
You pass my do' but can't come in.

See what Kelly's love have done.
See what Kelly's love have done.

If I had listened to what my mamma said,
I would a been at home in mamma's bed.


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Subject: RE: Help: Careless Love / Bunch of Thyme
From: Mr Red
Date: 01 Sep 02 - 01:37 PM

Don't know the history of Bunch of Thyme but I have heard many an erudite folkie tell of the symbolism. Thyme=maidenhead, Garden=wider area thereabouts, Rose=baby.
I took it to be old but you can be lead astra sometimes.


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Subject: RE: Help: Careless Love / Bunch of Thyme
From: Leadfingers
Date: 02 Sep 02 - 01:53 PM

Thanks for the info,but its the tune that I am curious about.Was the tune taken up by the Careless Love people or was the Careless Love tune taken because it fitted the Lyric of Bunch of Thyme? Did some one not like the original traditional tune? Any Ideas?


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Subject: RE: Help: Careless Love / Bunch of Thyme
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Sep 02 - 02:20 PM

I'd put my money on that tune being a lot older than W C Handy's version.


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Subject: RE: Help: Careless Love / Bunch of Thyme
From: Leadfingers
Date: 03 Sep 02 - 07:18 PM

I Believe you,McGrath,but I would like a fact or two.I hate not knowing something about a song that I use .


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Subject: RE: Help: Careless Love / Bunch of Thyme
From: Cruiser
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 01:30 PM

Did the precedence of the melody ever get resolved? My guess would be the same as McGrath's.


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