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BS: Mediaeval Swear Words
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BS: Mediaeval Swear Words |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mediaeval Swear Words From: Mark Cohen Date: 05 Sep 02 - 04:03 AM DaveO: "Lego" means to steal? Don't tell the kids! Apparently Gilbert and Sullivan were chastised for putting on a play called Ruddigore because it was "obviously" a euphemism for the B-word. (There! made it a musical thread!) I remember learning two Yiddish curses from my high school friend Steve Cohen (who sat next to me in homeroom, of course...along with David, Fred, Larry, and Michael)--though I've seen a whole book of them in the past. A chaleryeh af dayn Bubbe -- May your grandmother get cholera Zolst du vaksn, vi a tsibeleh, mit kop in drerd -- May you grow...like an onion, with your head in the ground. There's another one, I don't know it in Yiddish, but it goes something like this: May you become wealthy and famous, and build a huge mansion, with fifty rooms and two beds in each room....and may malarial fever drive you from bed to bed each night. LH: I doff my chapeau to you, sir. Well fouled, indeed. Aloha, Mark |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mediaeval Swear Words From: Dave the Gnome Date: 05 Sep 02 - 06:24 AM Ref 'Codswallop' The story goes that a gentleman by the name of Hiram Codd patented a bottle for fizzy drinks with a marble in the neck, which kept the bottle shut by pressure of the gas until it was pressed inwards. Wallop was a slang term for beer, and Codd's wallop came to be used by beer drinkers as a derogatory term for weak or gassy beer, or for soft drinks. This theory has appeared in Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable, but there are problems with it. Codswallop is not recorded until the mid-20th century, rather a long time after Codd's invention, and there are no examples of the spelling Codd's wallop, which might be expected as an early form. These are not conclusive disproof of the theory - it is conceivable that the term circulated by word of mouth, like many slang terms, and that the connection with Codd's bottle had been forgotten by the time that the term was written down - but they do shed doubt on the tale. From AskOxford.com See this link Cheers DtG |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mediaeval Swear Words From: HuwG Date: 05 Sep 02 - 08:45 AM My last post, then I'll shut up, I promise. While I maintain that "By our Lady" is, or may be, the original source for "Bloody" (and I'm backed up by a Judge on this point, but ignore that if you consider that a Judge is only a time-honoured shyster), it certainly would very quickly have come to mean by association, the horrible mess you create when you kill and cut up a cow, pig or sheep with crude tools and methods. (For a comment on mediaeval attitudes to animal welfare, I am reminded of the awful joke which says that castrating animals is perfactly painless, unless you catch your thumb between the two bricks). However, even for mediaeval tastes, the inconvenience, smell and sight of a street heaped with blood, offal and inedible bits of animals, was a bit much, and slaughter was supposed to take place outside towns and cities only. The execption to this would be large cities such as York, where this might lead to inconvenient traffic volumes, so it would be OK for animals to be led or driven to a street set aside for animal slaughter. Such a slaughterhouse was a "Shambles" (and there is a street of that name in York to this day). "Shambles" to the mediaeval mind, must have meant a dreadfully gory sight reminiscent of the aftermath of a battle. I think Shakespeare uses the term (in Henry IV Part 2 ??? I wonder if there were any monarchs outside Britain who came as a serial, but I am straying a bit, so...) Unfortunately, the term has now come to mean, "walks in an uncoordinated fashion", (perhaps with knuckles trailing on the ground), so when my boss tells me my work is a shambles, he means merely "untidy" as opposed to "ghastly" (I hope). .... So, when Duncan refers to his bloody sergeant, the man should be made up so as to be practically cut to pieces, or given several yards of fresh animal tripes to wear as a trophy, not merely a head bandage with a patch of red on it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mediaeval Swear Words From: GUEST Date: 05 Sep 02 - 08:53 AM http://www.alt-usage-english.org/ucle/ucle9.html "Bloody" "Walk! Not bloody likely. I am going in a taxi" (Liza, in George Bernard Shaw's 'Pygmalion', 1914) "…[English]… is taught so bloody badly…" (Prince Charles, 1989) "I never use the word 'bloody' because it is unparliamentary. It is a word I never bloody well use." (MP, 1980) The use of "bloody" as an excessive adjective apparently entered our language about 300 years ago. Folk etymology has it that it is a euphemism for "by our lady". The logic of this etymology, however, fails in the translation of meaning and intent from an oath ("by our lady") to an intensive adjective ("bloody"). For example, to say "it's by our lady cold outside", "by our lady hell" doesn't really make sense, even though Jonathan Swift attempted it. A more satisfying explanation is that it describes a state of bellicose drunkenness: it is natural that someone in a drunken state who was eager to fight would have a flushed face; and hence, "bloody drunk". A parallel, and equally satisfying, explanation is that it comes from the term "Bloods" as used to describe young and arrogant aristocrats. Its use as an integrated adjective seems to be from the 20th century. Examples of "bloody" as an integrated adjective are: "Not bloody likely", "Abso-bloody-lutely", and the Australian "Kanga-bloody-roo". There is little doubt that the Aussies hold all known records for the use of "bloody" as an enclitic device. "Ruddy" and "blooming" are thought to be derived as euphemisms of "bloody". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mediaeval Swear Words From: The Walrus at work Date: 05 Sep 02 - 09:25 AM HewG,
Of "Shambles": Perhaps like a horse only fit for the knackers? (and where would that be but the shambles). Regards Walrus |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mediaeval Swear Words From: SlowAlan Date: 05 Sep 02 - 09:56 AM Don't know any pre 1500 curses, but I like Shakespeare's "The Devil damn thee black thou cream faced loon...I thouest thou, yea I thouest thou.." (using the familar "thou" to a superior when "you" should have been used was a form of great disrespect, still can be in outdated artifically hidebound languages like French .. Also I like the Regency curse "Stap me vittles" (stab me vitals) Also "Rantallion" a man whose penis hangs lower than his scrotum according to the Penguin book of Historical Slang and "fartleberry" for what we call "dags" in New Zealand from Mrs Byrnes Dictionary. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mediaeval Swear Words From: GUEST,Joe Flood Date: 05 Sep 02 - 10:16 AM I once cohabited with an expert in ancient English/Saxon who taught me a good deal about the origins of common swear terms. Her favourite was a "cock and balls story", which more politely became "cock and bull" or "bull" and then was re- rudified as "bullshit". She also claimed that "fucare" was perfectly polite Anglo Saxon, meaning "to lie with". "Cunnus" was however, always vulgar Latin, and found its way into other languages. Note that these derivations are quite different from the above. The history of common words for "shirt" and "toilet" is also very interesting, as words which were polite in one century became very impolite in another and had to be replaced. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mediaeval Swear Words From: Amos Date: 05 Sep 02 - 11:14 AM "Shamble" meaning a mess or a bloody wrack is time-honored and still used - as in "The kids' room was an absolute shambles". "To shamble", meaning to sort of ramble with a shuffle, is a distinct sense, and I would doubt it is immediately transferred from the first definition. But I 'aven't done any bloody research on it, 'ave Oi? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mediaeval Swear Words From: Amos Date: 05 Sep 02 - 11:19 AM Well, I am pleased to report my instinct proved sound: Main Entry: sham·ble Pronunciation: 'sham-b&l Function: intransitive verb Inflected Form(s): sham·bled; sham·bling /-b(&-)li[ng]/ Etymology: shamble bowed, malformed Date: 1681 : to walk awkwardly with dragging feet : SHUFFLE Main Entry: sham·bles Pronunciation: 'sham-b&lz Function: noun plural but singular or plural in construction Etymology: Middle English shameles, plural of schamel vendor's table, footstool, from Old English sceamol stool, from Latin scamillum, diminutive of scamnum stool, bench; perhaps akin to Sanskrit skambha pillar Date: 15th century 1 archaic : a meat market 2 : SLAUGHTERHOUSE 3 a : a place of mass slaughter or bloodshed b : a scene or a state of great destruction : WRECKAGE c (1) : a scene or a state of great disorder or confusion (2) : great confusion : MESS Both entries are from Webster's Collegiate on-line. The second reflects a root meaning of toppled stools and benches or broken pillars, while the first has its core meaning in "stooped" or "bowed", which characterizes the sort of walk described. They could have a common ancestor, but it is way back there! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mediaeval Swear Words From: Amos Date: 05 Sep 02 - 11:28 AM As for "codswallop", while it resonates happily with codlings, it seems in fact to have no genuine history prior to 1963, unless you believe it was a 19th century lemonade product sold in green bottles by a Mister Codd, which I do not. However there is a really funny song (since this is a music site) about codswallop which can be found on this page. Regards, A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mediaeval Swear Words From: Fibula Mattock Date: 05 Sep 02 - 11:33 AM Slight thread-drift but still on topic - cultural differences in swearing. Having a couple of Dutch friends keen to share their language, I got them to teach me Dutch swear words (in return for a few choice Norn Ireland phrases and instruction of the correct use of "aye, yer ma"). Anyway, I was amazed to find that their swear words were all diseases, with the occasional religious phrase thrown in - hardly any of them were sexual, or had connotations of sexual behaviour (other than slang terms for genitals). Thinking about it, is it because it is in some ways a more liberal society, not as uptight about sex as the UK? It's fascinating how swearing differs by country. I use a lot more religious phrases than people here in England - "Sweet Mother of God" and "Jesus, Mary and Joseph (and the donkey)" aren't often heard in my place of work. Then again, swearing isn't heard all that often in my place of work - now there's a cultural difference between Norn Ireland and England. (No longer do I hear the word "fuck" used in about 5 different ways in a sentence - but mainly as a sentence filler without any intention of rudeness.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mediaeval Swear Words From: GUEST,Bagpuss Date: 05 Sep 02 - 11:38 AM Talking of foreign swearing. I was intrigued to learn a Spanish phrase which seems to have no direct english counterpart, but there is a similar Geordie one. Vete a la mierda = hadaway and shite |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mediaeval Swear Words From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 05 Sep 02 - 12:30 PM "hadaway"???? What's that? "Shite" I have heard somewhere. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mediaeval Swear Words From: Nerd Date: 05 Sep 02 - 12:39 PM My favorite, from Chaucer:
I wolde I had thy coillons in myn hond
I wish I had your bollocks in my hand Of course, this also gives you "hogges toord" and "coillions" to use as you see fit. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mediaeval Swear Words From: hesperis Date: 05 Sep 02 - 12:39 PM Wow. Much amazing stuff here... Uncle DaveO is right though, there are four areas of swearing, and I'm looking for the merely vulgar, rather than insults and curses. (Though those are definitely cool!) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mediaeval Swear Words From: The Walrus at work Date: 05 Sep 02 - 01:16 PM Slight Thread Drift alert SlowAlan,
If you want a good Regency curse, how about Walrus |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mediaeval Swear Words From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 05 Sep 02 - 01:26 PM Codswallop could have a past. "Codshead" for stupid fellow appeared in print in 1556 (OED). Wallop has many meanings; codswallop may yet be found in old writings. Shamble, meaning to slaughter or cut up, turns up in print at the end of the 16th C (in time for the English renaissance and Shakespeare) but shamble meant a table for slaughtering meat by 1305, so shamble for slaughter is prob. medieval. Its earliest meaning (ca. 825 AD) was footstool. Later it was a table for counting out money. It is another word with many meanings, so a good candidate for slang expressions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mediaeval Swear Words From: Steve Parkes Date: 06 Sep 02 - 03:32 AM Those bottles with the big glass marble stopper in the neck were common in the first half of the 20th C, and I'm failry sure they were still being made in the 50s. As marble-playing kids, we used to call big plain ones "bottlewashers": only years later did I find you got them by smashing the bottle and throwing the bits away. (This was called "making your own amusemements". My favourite though was tying a tin can to a cat's tails. These kids today, they've got no idea how to have fun...!) Steve |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mediaeval Swear Words From: HuwG Date: 06 Sep 02 - 04:49 AM Broken my promise to shut up ... The Guest who suggested that " For example, to say "it's by our lady cold outside", "by our lady hell" doesn't really make sense, even though Jonathan Swift attempted it. It is possible for language to develop as e.g.
"By our Lady, it is cold"
Language certainly does change over time; I firmly believe that English came about because the Angles and Saxons finally tired of making adjectives agree with their nouns (in both Latin and German).
And guess what ! Someone told me that the word, "Birlady" occurs in Shakespeare. It's in some clowns hilariously unfunny speech, like, "By the Mass, th'art as addle-pated as a coxcomb that has lost his way at Spitalfields, Birlady and God's Sonties ..."
Unfortunately, he can't remember which clown. Neither the Young nor the old Gobbo, I tried those two. I'll look up Fabian and Feste tonight. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mediaeval Swear Words From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 06 Sep 02 - 02:35 PM To repeat, Shakespeare is post-Medieval (mediaeval). The renaissance late 1500s and early 1600s were a time of experimentation with the language, by lexicographers, writers and playwrights, so presumably by the public as well. One of the words added to English at this time (I wish I had a swear word) was "niche," for a cut-out place in a wall into which a statue, etc., could be inserted. In 1611, Randall Cotgrave put together a dictionary of English and French, with the first English use of "niche." He used the pronunciation "nitch" because the Italian "nicchia" fit his meaning better than the French "niche" which had more the sense of a grotto. His friend Ben Jonson, the playwright, used the word in one of his plays the following year but as "niece." Others quickly followed, using "nice" and "nitch" but most following Cotgrave's spelling. Now, it also means a person's place in a hierarchy, school of art, etc. (I had to research the word for use in a book (picky editor). In Canada, the pronunciation "neesh" is popular because of the French in eastern Canada, although the word and the meaning came from English rather than French usage. A long digression, for which I apologise, but to atone: Byrlady (birlady) appears in a play of 1570, and was also used by Shakespeare in Romeo and Juliet in 1592 (publication dates) and it does mean "By Our Lady." There are several other spellings. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mediaeval Swear Words From: Raedwulf Date: 06 Sep 02 - 07:06 PM Fibula - you've obviously never worked on the railways on the mainland! Admittedly when I did (many years ago) I never did literally hear the sentence "f*****g f****r's f*****g f****d*", but I certainly, on a daily basis, heard it used as noun, adjective, verb & adverb, which constitutes the 4 main parts of speech... Bloody (from the OED) - ORIGIN mid 17thC. The use bloody to add emphasis to an expression is of uncertain origin, but is thought to have a connection with the 'bloods' (aristocratic rowdies) of the late 17th & early 18thC; hence the phrase 'bloody drunk' [me at the moment, funnily enough =)] (= 'as drunk as a blood) meant 'very drunk indeed'. After the mid 18thC until quite recently bloody, used as a swear word, was regarded as unprintable, probably from the mistaken belief that it implied a blasphemous reference to the blood of christ, or that the word was an alteration of 'by our lady'; hence a widespread caution in using the term even in phrases such as 'bloody battle', merely referring to bloodshed. I quote verbatim. Well apart fom my little interjection (but then I really am bloody (or at least mildly bruised) drunk! *BG*) |