Origins: Short'nin' Bread

Subject: Shortnin' Bread
From: GUEST,David Neale
Date: 06 Sep 02 - 05:07 PM

I'm trying to find the earliest known recording of Shortnin' Bread: who recorded it, when, where...? Any interesting stories/anecdotes about the song, good links, etc.

Ta!

Subject: RE: Help: Shortnin' Bread
From: Sorcha
Date: 06 Sep 02 - 05:17 PM

David, go read this thread and the links in it. Does that help at all?

Subject: RE: Help: Shortnin' Bread
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Sep 02 - 06:39 PM

Trad. Ballad index lists Ora Dell Graham 1940 AFS on LC Treas. Probably others earlier.
First recorded instance of the song, 1912, East Tennessee mountain whites; first Negro records, 1915.

Subject: RE: Help: Shortnin' Bread
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Sep 02 - 08:08 PM

Shortnin' Bread-Saltin' Bread threads (in add. to one posted by Sorcha):

29791- Shortnin'
15054- Shortnin'
1327- Shortnin'
I don't think anyone has posted a discography.

Subject: RE: Help: Shortnin' Bread
From: Stewie
Date: 06 Sep 02 - 09:21 PM

Hi Dicho, I am interested in your source for that first instance being a recording. I am curious because Meade et alia's reference to this is: 'Journal of American Folklore (1915), XXVIII, 142 (from Tennessee mountain whites, 1912)'. That looks to me as if it might have been transcribed and later printed in the journal. Can you clarify this for me? If it is a recording, who recorded it?

Commercial old-timey recordings under the title 'Shortenin' Bread':

Henry Whitter (hca solo) 26 or 27 February 1924 in NYC [OK 40064]
Gid Tanner and His Skillet Lickers (2 vls, gtr, bjo & vcl) on 3 November 1926 Atlanta [Co 15123-D]
Dykes Magic City Trio (vln, gtr & autohp) on 10 March 1927 NYC [Br 125]
Earl Johnson & His Dixie Entertainers (vln, gtr & bjo, with vcl ref) on 23 March 1927 Atlanta [OK 45112]
Tweedy Brothers (2 vlns & pno) ca March 1928 Richmond [Gnt 6529]
Reeves White County Ramblers (vcl by Lloyd Reaves w/vln, gtr & organ) ca March 1928 Chicago [Vo 5218]
W.H. Hinton (bjo solo) 31 January 1931 San Antonio [Vi unissued]
Cherokee Ramblers (vln, gtr, bjo, hca, jug & wshbd) on 10 July 1935 NYC [De 5162]
Clayton McMichen (vln & gtr) on 1 June 1939 NYC [De 2647]

The Kessinger Brothers (vln & gtr) made a recording under the title 'Shortening Bread' in NYC on 25 June 1929 for Brunswick but it was unissued. It does not appear on the Document 3-CD coverage of their complete recorded works.

MS&M also list a recording by the Crook Brothers String Band (2 hca, 2 gtr & bjo) under the title 'Job in Getting There' on 5 October 1928 Nashville [Vi V40020]

Above discography from Meade, Spottswood and Meade 'Country Music Sources: A Biblio-discography of Commercially Recorded Traditional Music'.

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: Help: Shortnin' Bread
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Sep 02 - 10:24 PM

Stewie, I knew you or another expert on discography would come up with a list of recordings older than that reference (ref. to Ora Dell Graham is from the Traditional Ballad Index, no other information given).

The other references to lyrics or music are taken from N. L. White, American Negro Folk Songs, p. 193, where he refers to or quotes lyrics collected by Perrow, 1915, p. 142, "nine stanzas with music as from East Tennessee mountain whites in 1912, ...", J. Am Folklore, var. issues 1912-1915 (as listed in Bibliography in White, American Negro Folk Songs), and other stanzas in White from Mss by Killingsworth 1915-1916 , Harward 1919 and others.

Subject: RE: Help: Shortnin' Bread
From: masato sakurai
Date: 06 Sep 02 - 10:37 PM

"Shortenin' Bread" by Fiddling Doc Roberts Trio (rec. unknown; issued March 1932) [Realaudio], which is not on the Country Music Sources list, and "Shortening Bread" by Dykes Magic City Trio [Realaudio] can be heard online at Honkingduck.

African-Americans who recorded it are: Emma Jane Davis (26 July 1942), Ora Dell Graham (24 Oct. 1940), George James (14 March 1937), Billie James Levi (10 Aug. 1942), Celina Lewis (29 May 1939), Tom McKinney (10 April 1936), Piney Woods School (6-9 May 1938), Ruby Smith (11 Aug. 1942), Henry Truvillion (18 May 1939), and Bobby Leecan (5 April 1927). (Blues and Gospel Records 1890-1943, 4th ed., Oxford, 1997)

~Masato

Subject: RE: Help: Shortnin' Bread
From: MAG
Date: 06 Sep 02 - 11:06 PM

AND Taj Mahal, on Shakin' a Tailfeather.

Subject: RE: Help: Shortnin' Bread
From: Stewie
Date: 06 Sep 02 - 11:57 PM

Dicho, thanks for that info.

Masato, MS&M list the Doc Roberts recording separately because it forms part of a 4-part tune, only one part of which, the chorus, relates to 'Shortenin' Bread'. Fiddlin' Doc Roberts and Edgar Boaz recorded the tune as 'My Baby Loves Shortenin' Bread' (vln & gtr) on 1 October 1925 in Richmond [Gnt 3162]. The Fiddling Doc Roberts Trio (vln & 2 gtr) recorded the tune in NYC on 5 March 1931 [Ba 32309 inter alia]. The former (Roberts and Boaz) has been reissued on CD - Document DOCD 8042 - and the latter on DOCD 8044, vols 1 and 3 respectively of Document's 3-CD reissue of Roberts' recorded works.

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: Help: Shortnin' Bread
From: masato sakurai
Date: 07 Sep 02 - 04:51 AM

Stewie, thanks.

~Masato

Subject: RE: Help: Shortnin' Bread
From: Sorcha
Date: 07 Sep 02 - 09:51 AM

refresh

Subject: RE: Help: Shortnin' Bread
From:
Date: 07 Sep 02 - 12:43 PM

Many thanks for these replies! Looks like the earliest commercial recording (which is what I'm looking for) so far is Henry Whitter's 1924 version. I don't care waht colour the performer is -- doesn't come into the equation and could be blue with yellow spots as far as I'm concerned, as long as their from planet Earth! What about the history of the number, though?

Subject: RE: Help: Shortnin' Bread
From: open mike
Date: 07 Sep 02 - 01:20 PM

i thought this might be a recipe thread--- any body have a good one for shortnin' bread?

Subject: Lyr Add: SALT RISING BREAD
From: masato sakurai
Date: 07 Sep 02 - 08:54 PM

open mike, there's a RECIPE THREAD.

On the background info (from The Fiddler's Companion):

SHORTENIN' BREAD [1]. Old-Time, Breakdown. USA; east Tennessee, Kentucky, North Carolina, Virginia, West Virginia, Alabama, north Georgia, Arkansas. A Major: D Major (Fuzzy Mountain String Band). Standard, ADAD (Reaves White County Ramblers) or AEAE. AABB. The melody has wide currency in the South, and appears in many traditional song collections starting with Perrow (1915). Perrow's version was collected from East Tennessee white singers, and has been called an "east Tennessee favorite" by musicologist Charles Wolfe. Mattie Cole Stanford, in her 1963 book Sourwood Tonic and Sassafras Tea, listed it as one of the tunes played at the turn of the century by fiddler George Cole of Etowah County, Alabama (Cauthen, 1990). It was one of the first tunes recorded by Kentucky fiddler Doc Roberts in the 1920's and was recorded for the Library of Congress by musicologist/folklorist Vance Randolph, from the playing of Ozark Mountain fiddlers in the early 1940's.
***
African-American collector Thomas Talley, in his book Negro Folk Rhymes (1922, a new edition 1991 edited by Charles Wolfe), prints a unique version of the song as "Salt Rising Bread," which goes:
***
I loves saltin', saltin' bread,
I loves saltin', saltin' bread.
Put on dat skillet, nev' mind de lead,
Caze I'se gwinter cook dat saltin' bread;
Yes, ever since my mammy's been dead,
I'se been makin' an' cookin' dat saltin' bread.
***
'Saltin' bread' seems to refer to bread made from water-ground corn meal, remarks Charles Wolfe, while the more common 'shortenin' bread' is bread mixed with bacon bits or bacon gravy, sometimes called 'cracklin' bread.' See also related tune "Three Little Niggers Layin' in Bed" (Pa.). Krassen (Masters of Old Time Fiddling), 1973; pg. 15. Reiner (Anthology of Fiddle Styles), 1979; pg. 12. County 519, Reaves White County Ramblers - "Echoes of the Ozarks, Vol. 2." County 526, "The Skillet Lickers, Vol. 2" (1973). Gennett 6529 (78 RPM), 1928, Tweedy Brothers (W.Va. brothers Henry, Charles and George playing two fiddles and a piano). Mountain 310, Tommy Jarrell - "Joke on the Puppy" (1976. Learned from his father). Old Homestead OHCSS 191, "Dykes Magic City Trio" (east Tenn.). Rounder 0035, Fuzzy Mountain String Band - "Summer Oaks and Porch" (1973. Learned from Dan Tate, Fancy Gap, Va.). Rounder 0057, Fred Clifton - "Old Originals, Vol. 1" (1978). Rounder 0089, Oscar & Eugene Wright - "Old-Time Fiddle and Guitar Music from West Virginia." Rounder 0320, Bob Carlin & John Hartford - "The Fun of Open Discussion." Voyager VRLP 328-S, "Kenny Hall and the Long Haul String Band" (learned from a Gid Tanner and the Skillet Lickers recording).

SHORTENIN' BREAD [2]. Old-Time, Breakdown. USA, Kentucky. G Major. Standard. AABCC'D. See also the related tune "Irish Cobbler." Source for notated version: James Bryan [Phillips]. Phillips (Traditional American Fiddle Tunes), 1994; pg. 222. Conqueror 7975 (78 RPM), Doc Roberts (Ky). Rounder 0175, James Bryan - "Lookout Blues" (1983. Learned from Doc Roberts' recording).

SHORTENIN' BREAD [3]. Old-Time, Breakdown. G Major. Standard. AA'BB'CC'DD'. A variation of version #2. Source for notated version: Gary Lee Moore [Phillips]. Phillips (Traditional American Fiddle Tunes), 1994; pg. 221.

~Masato

Subject: RE: Help: Shortnin' Bread
From: Stewie
Date: 07 Sep 02 - 10:54 PM

Alan Lomax noted that it began as a genuine plantation ring game: 'This old ring game tells of the longing of the slaves for the good things on their master's table. The children, of course, felt the sharpest pangs'. [A.Lomax 'Folk Songs of North America' Doubleday 1960 p492].

Henry Whitter's recording is an harmonica solo, so the Skillet Lickers' recording would be the first commercial hillbilly recording of it with vocals.

It is interesting to recall that Whitter was the first old-timey artist to record, some 4 months before Fiddlin' John Carson who 'sparked Okeh's hillbilly movement'. Whitter, a Virginia millhand went to NYC early in March 1923 and somehow persuaded Fred Hager, Okeh's concert and studio band director, to record him. Tests pressings were made of some instrumentals and ballads. His 'Lonesome Road Blues' and 'Wreck of the Southern Old '97', which was later to be made famous by others, were released early in 1924. Archie Green points out that these had master numbers that indicated a December 1923 session and that either Whitter's March test pressings were not assigned master numbers until December 1923 or Whitter was called back to re-record his own material. [ref. Archie Green 'Hillbilly Music: Source and Symbol' Journal of American Folklore July-Sept 1965].

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: Help: Shortnin' Bread
From: Stewie
Date: 07 Sep 02 - 10:59 PM

Lomax suggested that 'Shortenin' Bread' became widely popular as a result of recordings by the opera singer Lawrence Tibbett and others. [A.Lomax 'Folk Songs of North America' p504].

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: Help: Shortnin' Bread
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Sep 02 - 01:24 AM

The complete three verses of "Saltin' Bread" (Salt Rising Bread) from Talley is given in thread 29791: Saltin'
The notes by C. K. Wolfe, p. 71, in addition to those given by Masato, state that "Talley was apparently the first to present a black-derived version of this piece, more commonly known as 'Shortenin" Bread.'" It was in the manuscript "Leading Themes Used in Singing Negro Folk Rhymes, Manuscript, ca. 1921, Talley Papers, Fisk University.

As is often the case, Lomax provides no information to verify his statement that "Shortenin' Bread" originated as a "ring game." It does not, as Lomax states, tell "of the longing of the slaves for the good things on their master's table." This is story-teller's invention.
Newman L. White, 1928, in American Negro Folk-Songs, p. 193, says, "I suspect that the 'Shortnin' Bread' song originated with the whites."

Shortnin' bread is made with fine-ground white cornmeal (sometimes with a little flour), usually saturated with lard. Scarborough noted that "saltin' bread" contained bits of bacon or cracklin'. Cracklins are the rind of cured pork, usually shoulder, fried or roasted crisp and dry. Old time southerers, including whites, would snack on strips of cracklin; some still do, saving and preparing the rind from a ham. My wife is one of them. For skillet-fried bread, see the recipes in the thread on corn bread. The Plains and Pueblo Indians and Navajos now make the best frybread, cooked crisp in a pie-shaped round, and usually served dribbled with honey. Usually sold at every gathering. Delicious!

Subject: RE: Help: Shortnin' Bread
From: Stewie
Date: 08 Sep 02 - 03:07 AM

Dicho, you are right that Lomax's statement is undocumented - and very short. But, to muddy the waters again, Harold Courlander ('Negro Folk Music USA' Columbia Uni Press 1963) included it in his chapter headed 'Ring Games And Playparty Songs' with this comment: 'A play song that had burst into popularity a decade or so ago as a show tune is "Shortenin' Bread"'. [Courlander Dover reprint 1992, p160].

Meade, Spottswood & Meade obviously don't think it is of plantation or slavery origin as they include their discography of it under the heading of 'Tunes From the Minstrel Stage' rather than under one of their other categories such as 'Songs of Black Origin' or 'Slavery & Memories of Plantation Life' or 'Black Face Minstrel Pieces'.

As the old-timey bloke said about Napoleon's visit to America: 'scholars differ'.

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: Help: Shortnin' Bread
From: Stewie
Date: 08 Sep 02 - 03:16 AM

Sorry, Courlander's spelling was 'Shortnin'', not 'Shortenin'' as I had it the first paragraph of the previous post.

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: Help: Shortnin' Bread
From:
Date: 08 Sep 02 - 09:18 AM

Masato, great information and links! Many thanks!

Subject: RE: Help: Shortnin' Bread
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Sep 02 - 01:38 PM

The ring game use could be 20th century. Some have noted minstrel lines in some verses; they could be floaters.
One version of "Shortnin' Bread" (in White, from Ms of W. T. Huckabee, 1919, Negro workers in eastern NC):

Two little niggers black as tar,
Tryin' to get to heaven on a 'lectric car.
De street car broke, down dey fell,
'Stead a goin' to heaven they went to hell.

Compare this with another white song (Ms of H. Carder, 1915-1916, again noted in White)
I come to a ribber, an' couldn't get across
So I gib half a dolla for an old blind horse, ---etc.
From the "Original Jim Crow" sung by Tom Rice, "Negro Singers' Own Book, 1846(?).
Just speculation, but when sung to the same rhythm, and cadence, I think I can see how floaters came in from other songs.

Wouldn't it be wonderful to have transcripts of these manuscripts? Must be a lot of material buried in them. Might answer some of these questions, or at least provide more fuel for speculation.

Subject: RE: Help: Shortnin' Bread
From: Stewie
Date: 06 Apr 03 - 07:37 PM

For another slant on the history of this, see Vance Randolph 'Blow the Candle Out: "Unprintable" Ozark Folksongs and Folklore' (Ed. G.Legman) Uni of Arkansas Press 1992, pp 608-609. For information on 'Shortenin' Bread', Legman references the Brown Collection Vol III, pp 535-36. Radolph recorded the following from Mrs M.M. at Springfield, Missouri, in October 1921. She heard it in Stone County, Missouri, in the early 1900s. In his note, Legman describes it as a 'parody or continuation of the minstrel song, "Shortenin' Bread"'.

Two little niggers layin' in bed
One turned over to the other'n an' said
You pee'd in my warm place (4 times)

The doctor come an' the doctor said
Feed them niggers on shortenin' bread

A similar fragment is given from Mrs E.H., Hot Springs, Arkansas 1938. Legman notes that the reference in both versions is to sexual intercourse with 'my warm place' being the vagina.

There is also version C: 'Gates Thomas, in "Publications of the Texas Folklore Society" (1926) vol V, p 163, courageously printed the following':

Two little niggers layin' in the bed
One turned over, and t'other one said
You've wet in my warm place
Gwain tell my mammy
You've wet in my warm place
Gwain tell my mammy

Legman notes that 'various northern white-culture versions exist, some of them replacing the invidious reference to Negroes with an equally invidious reference to "old maids", in this case implied to be lesbians as well'.

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: Help: Shortnin' Bread
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 06 Apr 03 - 08:04 PM

The "old maids" are not just northern. A sister-in-law from Georgia also sings about them. "Learned from her Mama."

Also barnyard.
Two black guinea hens, pickin' at the corn,
Gonna get plucked before tomorrow morn.

Subject: RE: Help: Shortnin' Bread
From: Azizi
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 10:50 AM

From 1997-2002 I facilitated sessions for girls & boys ages 5-12 years which explored the creative & performing arts potential of [what many, including myself, consider to be] traditional African American game songs, rhymes, and cheers. Children attending these sessions were also encouraged to share examples of contemporary "playground" rhymes that they knew. Given the neighborhoods that were targeted for these after-school and early evening sessions, most of the girls & boys in attendance were African American.

Introducing children to pre-Civil War & post-emancipation rhymes that they did not know was one way of providing information about African American culture and helping children develop & reinforce their self-esteem/self confidence {for example, over time, most children got over their initial reluctance to be the center person in circle games}. Besides, for the children {and often adult assistants and me} learning & performing these rhymes was fun!

One of the "play party" songs that we "re-claimed" was "Shortnin Bread". For me, re-claiming this song meant changing some of its words and dropping some of its traditional verses. One of the first words to go was the infamous "N word". The "N-g" referent in this song is highly offensive to me, and I believe in this context, parents of those children {and probably the children themselves} would have considered the use of that word to be controversial if not inappropriate. I say this notwithstanding the use of that word in many hip hop songs. That is another subject that I won't go into.

Because the word "Mammy" also has negative connotations, I substituted the word "Mama". However, in this case, I did mention this change to the children and explained why {i.e. "Mammy" was an old fashioned term for "Mama" and we were updating the rhyme}.

Performing this rhyme also provided an opportunity to describe what "shortnin bread" was {see Dicho's 1992 post above} since none of the children or I had ever tasted it}. It may have been more educational to cook some shortnin bread and share a batch with the children, but since I don't eat pork, I passed on this opportunity...

Here is an example of the words we used for this rhyme. Note that in the true tradition of African American [and other] folk rhymes,
I made up two action verses to go with this song.

Mama's little baby loves shortnin shortnin.
Mama's little baby loves shortnin bread.
{repeat 1x}

Put on the skillet. Put on the lid.*
All I want is some shortnin bread.
{repeat 1x}

Hands on your hips. Hands on your head.
Give me some of that shortnin bread.
(repeat 1x}

Touch your toes. Touch your head.
Give me some of that shortnin bread.
(repeat 1x}

Mama's little baby loves shortnin shortnin.
Mama's little baby loves shortnin bread
{repeat 1x}

* I also explained that "skillet" is another word for "frying pan" and "lid" was another word for the cover for the frying pan.

The group performed this "play party" or "dancing song" by choosing a partner and standing facing their partner. The two partners would then hold each other's hands in a criss cross fashion. On the first line each verse they would move their arms back & forth in what I call a scissors move. Their feet remain flat on the ground with their knees slightly bent while they rocked slightly back & forth.
For those familiar with the song "Zudio" , this is the same movement used for that song.

On the second line, both of the partners jump back and forth and one verse flows into the other in syncopated fashion.

I should mention that I received a grant from the Multicultural Arts Initiative of Pittsburgh and Heritage Health Foundation {Braddock, PA}which allowed me to engage a high energy choreography assistant, two parent assistants, and two talented musicians that added instrumental music for our sessions and our public community performances.
The musicians were one djembe {gym bay} African drummer and either an electric keyboardist who added gospel flavored accompaniment or an electric keyboardist who added a decided jazz flavor. While these traditional songs certainly had no musicial accompaniment but handclapping,foot stomping, and {sometimes} pattin juba, in my opinion, the instrumental accompaniment increased the richness of the experience. Unfortunately, due to timing and funding concerns, since 2002, these sessions are only held sporadically.

I would encourage others to experiment with these songs, and share ways that these songs can be revised so that they are more accessible and more acceptable to contemporary audiences of children, youth, and adults.

Subject: RE: Help: Shortnin' Bread
From: Azizi
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 11:13 AM

Correction: for the two added action rhymes of Shortnin Bread, the children did the indicated actions while rocking or, for the girls, switching thier hips to the beat of the rhyme.

Subject: RE: Help: Shortnin' Bread
From: khandu
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 01:17 PM

Mississippi John Hurt has a version on Vanguards "Last Sessions" collection. Lyrics can be found Here

k

Subject: RE: Help: Shortnin' Bread
From: PoppaGator
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 01:33 PM

I couldn't find the 1992 recipe info that would have included any pork products, but I know that *lard* (pig fat) was used as shortening for many years in many cultures, and that Crisco (or generic equivalent) is a very effective all-vegetable substitute, using the same quantities, baking times, etc. Maybe you can whip up a batch after all!

I've never understood what was meant by "lead" (rhymes with "bread"), and your interpretation that the word is "lid," as in "cover," makes sense.

I'm surprised that contemporary children were unfamiliar with the word "skillet" and needed it to be defined. In my experiennce, it's not used nearly as commonly as "frying pan," but it's not completely unknown/exotic either. For example, a number of US chain restaurants were promoting "skillet breakfasts" a year or so ago in TV advertising seen by just about everyone.

Subject: RE: Help: Shortnin' Bread
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 06:38 PM

All sorts of skillets on the market here, never called fry(ing) pans in the stores, called frying pans only by oldtimers only now.

The 1850s- Slaves (or po' whites) shortnin' bread was a simple mix of white (usually) corn meal, lard and sugar (unrefined cane) or molasses.

Rough proportions- One pound lard or the pre-used drippings, one cup corn meal, one cup sugar (or equivalent molasses).

Updated and upscale- use fancy flours, sugar and butter.
Nobody has eaten 19th c. shortnin' bread for ages! I doubt that many would eat the updated recipe; they would turn to shortbreads.

We still use lard exclusively for pie crust. Never found a satisfactory substitute.

Subject: RE: Help: Shortnin' Bread
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 07:39 PM

Whoops! Error. FOUR cups fine cornmeal or flour to one pound lard to one cup sugar.
For that, I get no shortnin' bread.

Subject: RE: Help: Shortnin' Bread
From: Azizi
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 08:10 PM

PoppaGator & Q,

I struggled to understand the line "Put on the skillet. Put on the lead" until it occurred to me that "lead" rhymed with bread and then I tackled the word "led" and the word "lid" popped in my head.

I probably do qualify as an old timer, but the children I meet with at the cultural sessions I wrote about don't and they don't use the word "skillet". Maybe it's a regional or racial thing, I don't know.

What is really a low down pity & a cryin shame is that these children are also unfamiliar with these words & actions:

shimmy {as in "Shimmy Shimmy Coco Pa" or the non-children's song "Shimmy like my Sister Kate" and

strut {as in "Here comes Sally/struttin down the alley"

They knew "switching" but not "strutting". And they also don't know how to "cakewalk" or "promanade". But they do know how to do the "Butterfly", "Snake" and other contemporary popular social dances, although I'm dating myself because these dances have been retired for a couple of years and "new" {old} dances have taken their place. And these children also know how to "step" {a reference to the synchronized, syncopated foot stompin' group routines that emphasize the creation of bass sounding foot stomps. Steppin is most commonly associated with African American Greek letter fraternities and sororities". And, like these fraternity & sorority step teams, some of the children know how to pat juba, though they don't know that term either.

We're talking urban African American children here. But I believe that many surburban children regardless of race and ethnicity are also be unfamiliar with these terms.

And children, youth, and adults don't know "children's" folk songs either. It's only in day care centers and pre-schools that a few game songs and play party songs such as "Ring Around The Rosie" and "Hokey Pokey" are being taught. Since adults think that these songs are for "toddler & pre-school babies", children think so too.

Once children graduate to elementary school there are few if any in-school or after-school programs that include these cultural artifacts. They could be used to teach history, word building, rhyming, and other language art skills-not to mention critical thinking. But that would be too much like right.

Schools are too busy teaching to the test to teach children how to think and how to appreciate the finer things in life like music and other art forms. Maybe that's a whole 'nother story, but I don't think so.

Subject: RE: Help: Shortnin' Bread
From: PoppaGator
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 08:36 PM

Hah! "But that would be too much like right" -- amen!

It sure is a shame that so much age-old traditional culture may be biting the dust in avor all all-new everything.

Subject: RE: Help: Shortnin' Bread
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 08:45 PM

The Tractors... a country boogie band, to simplify things, did an unusual version of this song a couple of years ago. They do a verse about the Israelites in the wilderness for 40 years, saying that God kept them alive by sending a little shortnin' bread down from heaven. I don't know if they made it up or not. I enjoyed it so much, I made up a verse about Christ feeding the multitude and the disciples asking how they could be fed. All they had was some little fishes and some shortnin' bread. Don't think I'd ever use it, but I like the idea of combining all the imagery of bread in the bible with a song glorifying shortnin' bread.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Help: Shortnin' Bread
From: Azizi
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 09:02 PM

But someone said there is nothing new under the sun.

It seems to me that a lot of the "new" things are actually a re-working of the old. Think about popular dance steps like the Snake. That dance is really really old, but it was introduced like it was the "latest" dance.

And the "Cuttin The Pigeon's Wing" dance eventually became "Shake A Tail Feather" and all those other bird dances that I can't remember right now. But even if dance styles like clothing styles are re-cycled and repackaged with new names, we lose out because we don't even know that are part of the past.

I'm not saying that the past is better than the present. But I am saying we should learn from the past and we haven't {think Vietnam and Iraq}....

Some may consider these comments to be a long way from the Shortnin Bread song, but if you think about the large number of slave songs that mention food {and stealing the master's chickens} and recognize Shortnin Bread to be a story about the effects of the near starvation diets that {some? many??}slaves had because of insuffient rations, then the comments are not too far removed from what is going on in some parts of the world nowadays. On one level, it's the same old songs about the have and the havenots; the powerful and the powerless...

Of course, on another level, for me, after I "cleaned" up the verses, it's a fun song to sing and move to.

Subject: RE: Help: Shortnin' Bread
From: Azizi
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 09:34 PM

My last post about nothing new was in response to PoppaGator. And in that post I was referring to a version of Shortnin Bread like this one found in Dorothy Scaborough's "On The Trail Of Negro Folk-Songs":

Put on de skillet
Put on de led
Mammy's gwine to make
A li'l short'nin bread
Dat ain't all
That she's gwine to do.
She's gwine to make
A li'l coffee too.

Chorus
Mammy's li'l baby loves short'nin, short'nin,
Mammy's li'l baby loces short'nin bread.
Mammy's li'l baby loves short'nin, short'nin,
Mammy's li'l baby loces short'nin bread.

Three lil N---'
lyin in bed
Two wus sick
An t'other 'most dead
Sent fo' de doctor
An' de doctor said
"Give dem N----
Some short'nin' bread!"

I slipped in de kitchen,
An' slipped up the led,
An' I slipped my pockets
full ob shortn'nin' bread'
I stole the skillet,
I stole de led,
I stole de gal
To make short'nin bread

De caught me wid de skillet,
Dey caught me wid de led,
An' de caught me wid de gal
Cookin' shortn'in bread.
Paid six dollars for de skillet,
Six dollars for de led,
Stayed six months in jail,
Eatin' shortn'in' bread.

end of quote

Though I can't prove it, I think that the "I slipped in de kitchen;they caught me; spent time in jail lines are newer than the "sick in bed/almost dead lines.

And I've read that real doctors rarely visited sick Black people on the plantations, and that real coffee was rare, and shortnin bread was a treat.. So if the person was imagining having shortnin bread, maybe he/she thought "Since I'm dreaming about something good to eat, I might as well add some coffee in the dream too".

BTW, the scarcity of sugar and sweets like candy in the diet of enslaved African Americans gives added meaning to the "Who'll Take Sugar In The Coffee-o"; "He Loves {Likes}Sugar & Tea" and other such songs...

Also, Scaborough included versions of Shortnin Bread in the lullaby section of her book. Apparently, at some point, this song was became "jazzed" up {made faster}. Versions that I've heard certainly aren't lullabies.

Jerry, your verse sounds interesting. I'd love you to post it.

Subject: RE: Help: Shortnin' Bread
From: GUEST,Anne Croucher
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 10:24 PM

My mother used to sing 'Momma's little baby love, shortnin shortnin, Momma's little baby love short-en-in bread'. She only ever sang the chorus as far as I can remember, and that when she was baking.

Perhaps she heard it from American servicemen over in England during WWII. She was born in 1927 or 29 - depending how old she felt.

Shortening is an old fashioned word for fat.

Short crust pastry - although in many recipe books is made with butter, or these days margerine, in my family it is made half and half butter and lard. The more fat to flour the shorter the pastry.

English Lardy cake is a truely artery hardening food - if you believe the medical profession. It is bread dough (1 lb)layered with 6 oz of lard, 6 oz of mixed dried fruit, 2 oz of mixed peel and 6 oz of sugar. When the dough had done the first rising to double its volume you roll it out and use one third of the other ingredients, spread the (warmed) lard and press in the fruit over two thirds of it, then fold the unspread third over and then over again - making a double sandwich. Do that twice more but do not roll it out the last time. Put it in a square tin, press down gently and leave to rise for half an hour. Bake at 475degrees Farenheit for 45 minutes, leave to cool until handlable, flick onto a plate and cut it if you are feeling civillised, otherwise tear into big sticky pieces and devour.

There are still folk tales and at least one song I know of English people being sent to America and sold to work on farms - handy way to get rid of unwanted villagers particularly when the poor laws were introduced. In Scotland the people could be driven off the land - but in England with its feudal inheritance people were bound to their parish. Of course England could not supply enough labour and Africa was willing to sell its people - but there would be quite a few unwilling Americans with memories af an English upbringing and yeast risen cakes full of fat and sugar.

By the way, hokey pokey is the stuff Italians(mostly) used to sell in the streets - it is frozen custard, pre-cursor of ice cream.

Anne

Subject: RE: Help: Shortnin' Bread
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 01:17 AM

Shimmy like my sister Kate- the word is lost on young ones here. Originally it was shimmyshake, (possibly derived from chemise says Webster's). Shimmyshake, of course, immediately brings up Kate as a rhyme. Really popular in early jazz dance(about 1915-1920) although the word goes back to the early 19th c.

Anne, Surprised to see "shortening is an ond-fashioned word for fat." In my cookbooks, shortening is the general term for fats, including butter, lard, vegetable fats like Crisco (many years ago Crisco was lard, but it was transformed by the manufacturer). Of course, my cookbooks are not English (except for an old Beeton's we picked up as a curiosity). The "artery-hardening" foods that Anne mentions were a large part of the 19th c. diet in North America as well as in the British Isles. Hard work burnt calories, but poverty and ignorance led to poor diets and illness among the populace in both regions.

On the plantations where sugar cane could be grown, the slaves generally had molasses but not sugar. Corn, molasses, lard, bacon and dried peas (term includes beans) were important parts of the slave diet; "shortnin' bread" filled the belly because better foods were lacking.
Vegetables often were raised in small patches by the slaves but they never had the variety raised by them for the benefit of the owners and overseers. Peas, beans and potatoes were grown and provided on some plantations, but actual quantities and how widespread? Don't know.
There are few studies such as Rosengarten's "Tombee," which examines the actual conduct of a planter's domain. Detailed records are not popular with historians, but they exist and should be better known.
Skilled slaves were valued, and often loaned out. One of many diary entries from the 1850s- "Major's Jack came here and did some work on my boat, paid him in corn and bacon." Many trips by the slaves are listed in the "Tombee" journals; to deliver and pick up materials, to fish on the river, to collect oysters in season, cut timber, etc. (This planter near Beaufort, SC).

Real doctors, as suggested above, generally did not visit the slaves, although the health of the slaves was important to productivity (seldom used by the planters themselves except in real emergencies- at that time, probably just as well). Most plantations maintained a "sickhouse." Nursing was provided by special slaves or by someone from the master's or overseers families. Illness a constant problem. Journal entry, Feb. 1850. "Isaac and Moll still sick. God knows when I will get all of my small force at work. So many mouths to feed & so few to work that it is impossible for me to get along" (Thinks about how to get more Negroes in the field and fewer in the yard). "Out of 30 head to feed, only nine work and make feed for them, then they expect clothes and shoes regularly..."

Subject: RE: Help: Shortnin' Bread
From: PoppaGator
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 05:43 PM

"Shortening" is not at all an archaic word, it's very much in current use for fat-as-used-in-baking. Some common current examples of delicacies whose most important ingredient is shortening:

Strawberry shortcake
Shortbread cookies -- e.g., Nabisco "Lorna Doone"

Of course, the above are made with refined white (wheat) flour and plenty of refined white sugar, while old-time sho'tnin' bread was made from coarse corn flour (ideally white, but probably yellow sometimes) and perhaps molasses or cane syrup as sweetening. Still, even the most rudimentary shortnin brad was probably pretty tasty. (I could eat me some right now, in fact!)

I know it's counterintuitive, but the more shortening (fat) in the mix, the lighter the pastry. More strangely yet, lard produces even more delicate pastry than vegetable fat like Crisco. Go figure.

I heard many discussions in my grandmother's kitchen concerning the relative merits of lard vs Crisco in pie crust. This was *long* ago -- early 1950s -- and Crisco had already become a vegetable product while lard was less widely available. So, the switch from animal fat to vegetable oil as the base for solid shortening came much earlier than the more recent trends favoring low-cholesterol foods, vegetarianism, etc. It may have been the result of WWII era rationing of meat(?).

Subject: RE: Help: Shortnin' Bread
From: Lighter
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 06:15 PM

The Andrews Sisters recorded a swing version of "Shortenin' Bread" about sixty years ago. It's probably on CD somewhere. The old 78 may be how the song got to England.

There's never any need to apologize for modifying the lyrics of traditional songs. Azizi's adaptation sounds good to me.

Subject: RE: Help: Shortnin' Bread
From: GUEST,Anne Croucher
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 07:28 PM

Shortening is not a word in use in the UK - I suspect you would get blank looks if you asked where it was kept in the supermarkets.

There are some products labled as vegetable shortening (in small letters) - but it would not really be known as such - vegetarian cooking fat might find it. It would probably be in a specially labled area - vegetarian foods are still not considered 'main stream' in this neck of the woods.

Shortening is not in my ancient pocket Oxford dictionary - the 1947 reprint - though shortbread is, and is universally known - though its etymology would be obscure. Also unlisted is skillet, by the way.

Anne

Subject: RE: Help: Shortnin' Bread
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 07:41 PM

Trivia and digression.
Poppagator raised an interesting question- when did Crisco become vegetable? Or was it always? The website, and a web 'facsite' say it was vegetable at the start. "From its introduction in 1911 Crisco has revolutionized the way food is prepared..." "From being the first shortening product made entirely of vegetable oil..." Not completely clear but sounds like it always was vege.
I remember that we bought lard in 10-lb pails when I was a kid. These were recycled as lunch buckets. A 25-lb pail also was available in the grocery.

Found a song about John Ashcroft titled the "Crisco Kid." "(He) was known to anoint himself with Crisco oil in religious ceremonies.+
Crisco Kid

Subject: RE: Help: Shortnin' Bread
From: GUEST,Burke
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 07:59 PM

Yes, reference sources say it's used more in US than UK. It was recorded as a Suffolk term in 1823. Isn't Suffolk supposed to be one of the main population sources for the early south? I have a vague recollection from Albion's Seed.

OED:
A fat or oil used to make pastry, etc., short.

1796 A. SIMMONS Amer. Cookery 34 Loaf Cakes No. 2 Rub 4 pound of sugar, 3 and a half pound of shortning, (half butter and half lard) into 9 pound of flour. 1823 MOOR Suffolk Words, Shortning, suet or butter, in cake, crust, or bread. ... 1970 SIMON & HOWE Dict. Gastronomy 347/2 Shortening, a culinary term used more in the United States than in Britain and it applies to fats used in making breads, cakes, pastry etc. All fats, even oils, come under this nomenclature and are used because they make mixtures 'short' or tender.

Subject: RE: Help: Shortnin' Bread
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 08:26 PM

Right, Burke. Currently the term is American by 27 years and lardy cake becomes American- But did the Vikings introduce short(e)ning to the Indians and was loaf cake a staple on their ships? And from the Indians to the ---

Subject: RE: Help: Shortnin' Bread
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 08:23 PM

Flour when mixed with water tends to produce a sticky stringy dough that can be pulled. When fat is Incorporated, especially is the flour is well mixed with the fat before the liquid, 'shortens' the dough, resembling a lot of breadcrumbs.

Compare with a 'short temper'....

For puff pastry, you roll 'normal type dough' out into thin sheets - each separated by fat.

Keeping the fat well chilled before the high heat hits it makes the 'shortened' dough work well. Animal fat tends to more solidity at room temperature, vegetable fats tens to be more fluid, so animal fat will give better results, unless you have highly hydrogenated vegetable fats - in which case you are not getting any health benefits...

Subject: RE: Help: Shortnin' Bread
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 08:39 PM

The cookbook by Amelia Simmons is noteworthy for the first printing of two other recipes: pumpkin pie and mince pie. I doubt that the latter was original, however.
Pemmican, anyone?

Subject: RE: Help: Shortnin' Bread
From: GUEST,Anne Croucher
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 09:50 PM

My origins are in Yorkshire - the Kingdom of Elmet - famous for its oat cusine (sorry)

The Northmen invaded and settled the area - it was called the Danelaw. There is a tradition of using oats in cooking there. I have my own recipes for oatcakes and parkin, tend to eat porridge for breakfast, use it to coat fish.

Does the cookbook with the mince pie recipt give the ingredients for the mincemeat? Does it include meat? I think the older mixtures include meat, the more recent just suet.

Anne

Subject: RE: Help: Shortnin' Bread
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 10:33 PM

The prepared mincemeat in jars found in the groceries here contain suet, but a purist demands meat.
Here is an old New York recipe, from the daughter of Marion McLinden, who was in charge of the family kitchen at Sunnyside, Washington Irving's home.

SUNNYSIDE MINCEMEAT PIE

2 pounds lean beef, finely minced
1 pound suet, ground (= English minced)
2 pounds sugar
5 pounds tart apples, pared, cored, chopped
2 pounds muscat raisins
1 pound currants (real currants, not the corinthian raisins sold in groceries as currants)
1 pound sultana raisins
1/2 pound citron, chopped
1/2 pound orange peel, chopped
1 tablespoon salt\1 teapoon cinnamon
1 teaspoon allspice
1 teaspoon mace
1 quart boiled cider (approx.)
Brandy
Pastry for 2-crust pie.

Mix beef, suet, sugar, fruit, spices and cider in a large kettle. Cover and simmer, stirring frequently for two hours. Add cider as needed. Stir in brandy to taste. Pack into sterilized jars, seal securely, store in a cool place and allow to mellow (ca. one month) before using. makes 5 jars (? size not specified).
Bake two-crust pies at 450 F for 30 minutes. serve warm.
From American Heritage Cookbook, vol. 2.

Here is the one we use, much simpler:

QUICK MINCEMEAT

1 cup chopped apple
1/2 cup seeded raisins, chopped
1/2 cup currants
1/4 cup butter
1 tablespoon molasses
1 tablespoon boiled cider (we use brandy)
1 cup sugar
1 teaspoon cinnamon
1/2 teaspoon powdered cloves
1/2 nutmeg, grated
1/2 teaspoon mace
1 teaspoon salt
Stock to moistem
1 cup chopped cooked meat
2 tablespoons fruit jelly

Mix, except meat and jelly, and simmer one hour. Add meat and jelly, cook 15 minutes. From Fannie Farmer's Boston Cooking School Cook-Book, our standby (1946 or earlier edition, the later ones have cut the fats and messed up the recipes).

Anne, we would like to see your recipe. We eat oatmeal most mornings. All the kids eat prepared dry cereal.

Subject: RE: Help: Shortnin' Bread
From: PoppaGator
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 11:12 PM

I never realized the word "shortening" in this context was relatively unknown in Britain. "Shortcake" and "shortbread" are certainly in use on both sides of the ocean...

By the way, I am thoroughly enjoying the drift this thread has taken.

Subject: RE: Origins: Shortnin' Bread
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 09:37 AM

Think I'll throw out an anchor, Poppa..

The verse in the Shortenin' Bread (as they spell it) version on The Tractors album "Farmers In A Changing World" is"

Moses and the children of Israel
Wandering in the desert trying to do God's will
Tired and hungry - almost dead
God sent down some shortenin' bread

They don't acknowledge the song as traditional, and have added another verse, making it more of a love/desire song, so I have no idea whether the Moses verse is traditional. Sure made me smile, though.
The song has a nice, loping, boogie beat to it, which does the song justice.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Origins: Shortnin' Bread
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 10:04 AM

Here's another etymological explanation to add to the mix, from a fascinating website for all lovers of word origins:
Take Our Word For It
http://www.takeourword.com/Issue006.html

From Lawrence Lutman:

What is the derivation of shortening as in shortening bread and what does it have to do with short?

Shortening has nothing to do with short as most of us know it. Instead, there's another word short which describes something which is easily crumbled or brittle. This word short, as in the terms short iron and cold short (both of which refer to brittle iron), comes from a Germanic source, the latter being a corruption of Norwegian and Danish kuldsjær "coldshort" which, in Swedish, is kallskor. Skor means "timid", in the sense that anything which is crumbly or brittle is not strong but is timid. So, ultimately, shortening is an ingredient (usually butter or another fat) which makes baked goods timid! And I wonder if the Hershey candy-bar-naming committee had that in mind when they chose the name Skor for one of their buttery, slightly crumbly treats. By the way, shortening was first recorded in about 1823.

Subject: RE: Origins: Shortnin' Bread
From: GUEST,Anne Croucher
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 11:22 AM

What is citron?

Something citrous obviously - but - what?

Here sultanas and raisins are different things - that is they come in different packets. We don't see them labled with the grape they originated from either - at least not in the supermarkets I frequent.

I think that cooking methods and ingredients tend to last - being passed down the distaff line.

A man might look back on the work his grandfather had to do with amusement or distain, but remember his childhood dinners with fondness.

Anne