BS: Too many trees in the USA??

Subject: RE: BS: Too many trees in the USA??
From: greg stephens
Date: 07 Sep 02 - 07:25 PM

WillieO, I take your argument, and it's very well put. But I think i still disagree.
(1) I'm not convinced that trees are necessarily always the best kind of vegetation for longterm stabilisation of slopes against erosion. I thinkthe evidence cuts both ways.
(2) My main point was that the occasional lookout ( necessiating the felling of a tiny handful of trees) could do a lot to create a greater love of people for the landscape, which would serve to protect the matural world much more effectively against further depredations. And I'm not talking about Skyline Drive tourist artificial stuff, I'm talking about the ordinary roads used by people in their day to day business. Humans are the greatest threat to whatwe have and cherish, so I am making a suggestion (possibly completely stupid) about how positive attitudes could be reinforced, with minimal environmental damage short term , and potentially great benefit long term.
Basically, my point is, dont confine "nice views" to mountain tops you have to trek to, or specially created "tourist viewing areas" with souvenir shops.Enoy them every day of your life.

Subject: RE: BS: Too many trees in the USA??
From: Willie-O
Date: 07 Sep 02 - 09:44 AM

Wonder what Guest's point was, if there was one.

I guess your attitude towards trees is formed by where you grow up. If you spend your life where there is an abundance of trees, as I have, you tend to be attached to the whole landscape, can't really picture living in a tree-scarce area, and have particular special arboreal friends here and there. This doesn't prevent you from hoisting a chainsaw and cutting some down from time to time, for various reasons including firewood, clearing trails, roads, or building lots, needing to mill some lumber to build a house or deck, or just to open up more sunlight for the garden.

I've always subscribed to the concept that what you leave behind is ultimately more important than what you cut. But I'm coming from a mental pre-condition that I would never consider cutting certain particularly important trees, or disturbing the area around them such that their form would change or they would be opened up to wind damage that would topple them.

One thing I've never done, though, is cut trees to "improve" the view. Thing about scenic lookouts is that they tend to be at the top of hills, therefore the trees are on slopes and are essential to prevent erosion from eventually removing the lookout itself...water and gravity you know. Sorry Greg.

Willie-O
one time forestry technician

Subject: RE: BS: Too many trees in the USA??
From: Peg
Date: 07 Sep 02 - 09:39 AM

re: the above AP article(s). Does anyone notice a curious contradiction? First it mentions a fire caused by a ritual of animal sacrifice, then contains all sorts of speculation about human corpses, and the next article says the "satanists" left behind a pentagram to mark the place of a human sacrifice...is this meant to confuse?

These do not all look like documents from the Associated Press (that is not to say they don't often release sensational stories). Several URLs are given and I suspect not all of them are legitimate news sources... Kind of confusing to present them in this format.

Subject: RE: BS: Too many trees in the USA??
From: GUEST,Bman
Date: 07 Sep 02 - 09:23 AM

Mark Cohen: C'mon, my mother told me that "chacun a son gout" means "Jack's son has the gout." And my mother would never lie to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Too many trees in the USA??
From: Mudlark
Date: 07 Sep 02 - 03:02 AM

Greg...In the Arkansas Ozarks, country much like what you saw, that kind of terrain is called hills and hollers (hollows). Vistas may be few but the forests are very beautiful, once you are inside them....lots of meandering streams, wild flowers, rock outcroppings, Indian caves. Lots of good places to hid a still....

Subject: RE: BS: Too many trees in the USA??
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Sep 02 - 02:33 AM

09/05/2002

Associated Press

PALMDALE, Calif. — The first rainfall in the Angeles National Forest area since April helped firefighters battle two wildfires Thursday, including a 16,000-acre blaze apparently sparked by candles in an animal sacrifice ritual.

The fires have scorched more than 20,000 acres, destroyed dozens of homes and disrupted thousands of lives.

http://www.nbc6.com/sharedcontent/APStories/stories/D7LRMJ580.html

nbc6.com named winner of the 2002 regional Edward R. Murrow Award for best Web site (North Carolina, South Carolina, Tennessee, West Virginia, Kentucky) Investigators suspect the fire was started by candles used in an animal sacrifice ritual.

New and decaying animal remains, including parts of a dismembered goat, were found inside a ring of rocks in the canyon where the fire began Sunday, said Forest Service Cmdr. Rita Plair-Wears. No arrests have been made.

Among the buildings claimed by the fire were 50 summer cabins built in the 1920s and 1930s.

Discovering the bodies of murder victims is almost a routine thing for those who work in this forest, he says. (Two or three dozen such corpses turn up each year in the Angeles.) Of course, he adds, there's no way of knowing how many are never found. Careful killers bury their victims, and few are so helpful as that group of satanists who marked the spot with a large pentagram laid out in rocks, beneath which lay the remains of their human sacrifice. http://web.outsidemag.com/magazine/0797/9707dark.html

Subject: RE: BS: Too many trees in the USA??
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Sep 02 - 12:49 AM

Rustic Rebel, that is beautiful...thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Too many trees in the USA??
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Sep 02 - 12:36 AM

well, I see what Greg means, and he was merely amazed that you couldn't see very far from so many hills, but the suggestions are right.....he needs to go west and there will be LOTS of open vistas!

Nope Greg, we'll just keep 'most' of what we have in the east! (you didn't see the parts of West Virginia where the strip mines had been, did you...*grin*)

Brazil had "too many trees" once...now they give settlers free chain saws to make themselves a little plot to farm....with 2-3 inches of top soil!..it lasts 2-3 years!.......and the Brazilian rain forest affects the climate all over the world! There is a very close statistical correlation between the weather in Brazil and the weather in the Sahara and east Africa. scary!

Subject: RE: BS: Too many trees in the USA??
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 07 Sep 02 - 12:27 AM

Consider this: For most aboriginal Americans living in the forested areas of what is now the U.S, the only place to see a "panoramic view" was the shore of a large body of water. Other than shorelines and a handful of naturally occurring balds and outcroppings, anyplace where we can see more than a few hundred feet without trees getting in the way has been altered by clearing for road construction or agriculture.

Subject: RE: BS: Too many trees in the USA??
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 07 Sep 02 - 12:17 AM

If I had no tree to hug, as my daily ritual goes
It would be forced upon my being
to hug a stump
And weep.
Peace, Rustic (a tree-hugger!)

Subject: RE: BS: Too many trees in the USA??
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Sep 02 - 11:47 PM

LOL, Mark...yeah I can believe that of most of Oregon. I should have clarified, I meant the dry West, including Wyoming, Colorado, Utah, New Mexico, Arizona, and other parts, as well as western Nebraska, Kansas North and South Dakota. Of course there are some parts which do have a goodly amount, but still trees are/were quite revered.:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Too many trees in the USA??
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 06 Sep 02 - 11:40 PM

kat, I know LOTS of people who grew up in the west who think that trees are ONLY good for cutting down. Of course, most of them are Oregonians. Chacun a son gout, I suppose. (For those who don't know French, you could loosely translate that as "The chicken's son has gout.")

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Too many trees in the USA??
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Sep 02 - 11:27 PM

Well, Greg, wait until daylight over here, another 9-10 hours for the West, then check out some of the views from these LIVE CAMS. Some of the ones in Colorado are above timberline or show sites above timberline. If you came over, you'd probably need an oxygen bottle, as timberline starts around 9-10,000 feet above sea level.

Growing up in the West, we just thought anyone who ever advocated cutting down a tree was completly daft AND at risk of losing their lives as we all knew you have to put down a crazy animal.:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Too many trees in the USA??
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Sep 02 - 10:44 PM

"Bush-y green"? Oxymoron, that is. Unless it's the folding kind.

Subject: RE: BS: Too many trees in the USA??
From: GUEST,JimI
Date: 06 Sep 02 - 09:49 PM

Heard on the radio on Wednesday; Queensland Australia; Some residents of a small town have been cutting down trees on public land to get a better view. The local council have now brought in a new ordinance that where trees have been cut down illegally new ones will be planted where possible and a LARGE billboard will be erected on the site saying something like - "The trees here were cut down illegally. This billboard will remain until the new ones grow!"

I like the idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Too many trees in the USA??
From: MMario
Date: 06 Sep 02 - 09:48 PM

I can sympathize with Greg - as I too have stopped at "Scenic lookouts" where the view is obscured by the trees that have grown up since the lookout was built.

there is a similar situation along the Cape Cod Canal - when I was growing up you could drive along the canal and see the boats passing through - but now - due to the growth of the trees(scrubby and unatractive pitch pine and scrub oak) you can't see a blasted thing! Even at several "lookout" points all you see is bushy green.

Subject: RE: BS: Too many trees in the USA??
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 06 Sep 02 - 09:42 PM

(quote) "(2) There are too many trees. Driving over every ridge in the Appalachians/ Blue Ridge Mountains parts of Virginia/West Virginia you come to the top, and think "Boy, there's a goodview coming up". And is there hell. All you can see is trees. "

Greg , I know you mean well , aand speak as a kind of British mirror-image of Mark twain's "Innocents Abroad" , but my Gawd ,man , this is the first time that I've seen living proof of someone openly admitting that they *literally* could not see ( appreciate ) the forest for the trees.... ;-)

I can't help but be reminded of the scene with King Leopold of Austria suggesting to Mozart that he liked the melody ....only..."it has too many notes". To which Mozart aptly replied " and which notes does your grace feels are needed to be removed to improve it ?" ( I'd quote the exact line, but I'm too lazy to slap in and search it out on my "Amadeus" video )

I know you're looking for something more like the view from Sugarloaf Mt. in Maryland as I shot lots of DVideo from it last Autumn. I can't imagine that the Appalachian ridges of the Virginia's do not have the equivalent lookout views.

I'll be heading down for a cabin-warming party of friends down by Shenandoah National Park and , with this as a base camp , will be scouting out some prime locations for a DV shoot of the pending Autmun colors *Shenenadoa-style*. I'll send ya' some images just to give you heart that *unobstructed* vistas do exist. You just got to know where to go.......

.......too many trees , indeed .

Aren't your Druids supposed to have *revered* sacred groves. Where's yer roots, man

Even when a young rough-hewn innocent aborad grasshopper such as I couldn't help but *intuitively* notice how the high -columned interiors of the more elaborate of the grand Cathedrals , with their interwoven cross-vaulted ceilings, *recall* something akin to an ancient tribal memory of the sacred grove right down to the streaming shafts of light falling inbetween them as with the stain-glass.

Odds-fish

Subject: RE: BS: Too many trees in the USA??
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Sep 02 - 09:37 PM

My dad was born and raised in the Pacific Northwest and he loved the water and the forests, as do I. Dad had an acquaintance who was from desert country. This acquaintance didn't like the Pacific Northwest at all, especially when he was out in the country. He felt caustrophobic; boxed in by all the trees. "You can't see anything like you can in the desert," he would complain. To which my dad would respond, "But in the desert, what is there to see?"

But some folks seem to like desolation. Anybody seen the movie Road Warrior? Lovely terrain, wot?

But some folks do like trees, especially those who think of trees in terms of X number of dollars per board-foot. This is why the forests in the world are doing what my hairline did some decades back (goodbye Tony Curtis, hello Yul Brynner). But, you know, a lot of people are unaware of the fact that trees draw carbon dioxide out of the air and return oxygen. Hack out enough of the foliage and things could get a little unpleasant. (Gasp! Wheeze!) Lotsa people don't know that.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Too many trees in the USA??
From: mack/misophist
Date: 06 Sep 02 - 09:01 PM

Your first thought was correct. The US obviously has too many trees. That's why our brave president is so valiantly trying to get as many of them cut down as possible. There's even talk of a special initiative to cut down the trees that line out city streets and clutter up our yards. What heros the Bush family produces!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Too many trees in the USA??
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Sep 02 - 08:48 PM

Well, Gregster, I'm not too sure what a "crap shot" is but if you say I'm one, heck, I ain't gonna argue with my best drinking buddy.

Now I know you went off with a few things on your mind but I thought you were gonna write a letter to The Washington Post on you're many ideas to improve the USA...

Oh?

They didn't like 'em so now you're gonna try 'em over her in the Catbox..

Hey, makes sense to me...

Now what were some of you others?

Hmmmmmmmm?

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Too many trees in the USA??
From: greg stephens
Date: 06 Sep 02 - 08:18 PM

Yes Ive seen Bobert doing that. Luckily he's a crap shot

Subject: RE: BS: Too many trees in the USA??
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Sep 02 - 08:16 PM

Contact those who offer balloon rides. Get above the trees and no traffic noise. (just the occasional bang from the squirrel rifle of some mountaineer trying to bring down that peekulyar flyin' thang).

Subject: RE: BS: Too many trees in the USA??
From: greg stephens
Date: 06 Sep 02 - 08:12 PM

OK OK. Have you got a chainsaw?

Subject: RE: BS: Too many trees in the USA??
From: Amos
Date: 06 Sep 02 - 08:06 PM

Sure thing, Greg-me-boy. We'll get right on it!! No problem!!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Too many trees in the USA??
From: greg stephens
Date: 06 Sep 02 - 07:42 PM

Fair enough, I'd love to come out west. I'm just talking about the ridges I've seen (or failed to see, which is the point I'm making).maybe they could uproot a few and replant them out your way.

Subject: RE: BS: Too many trees in the USA??
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Sep 02 - 07:39 PM

You went to the wrong part, Greg. Come out West and you'll understand how precious each tree is and can be kept alongside the vast vistas.

Forgot to say, they need them back there to counteract all of the hot air coming out of Washington D.C., too!:-)

Subject: Too many trees in the USA??
From: greg stephens
Date: 06 Sep 02 - 07:32 PM

Having recently become an authority on America (two weeks experience) I have come to two conclusions.
. (1) The electricians are useless, all the light switches have been installed upside down.
(2) There are too many trees. Driving over every ridge in the Appalachians/ Blue Ridge Mountains parts of Virginia/West Virginia you come to the top, and think "Boy, there's a goodview coming up". And is there hell. All you can see is trees. Couldnt you fell a handfull of trees ( a dozen would do it) on thedown-hill side of every layby(parking place?? not sure of the correct term) so as you could stop and feelyour heart sing at the rolling ridges of distant hills and valleys below your feet. You may feel I am advocating some dreadful anti-ecology sentiment here, but believe me I think it could generate a powrful extra love for the fantastic beauty you have.