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A new definition of 'folk' & 9/11

InOBU 09 Sep 02 - 04:09 AM
smallpiper 09 Sep 02 - 04:39 AM
Skipper Jack 09 Sep 02 - 04:50 AM
Orac 09 Sep 02 - 05:05 AM
greg stephens 09 Sep 02 - 07:27 AM
Nigel Parsons 09 Sep 02 - 07:35 AM
Orac 09 Sep 02 - 07:48 AM
Big Mick 09 Sep 02 - 08:01 AM
Amos 09 Sep 02 - 09:36 AM
GUEST,Pete 09 Sep 02 - 10:29 AM
Orac 09 Sep 02 - 10:33 AM
Orac 09 Sep 02 - 10:37 AM
katlaughing 09 Sep 02 - 11:35 AM
McGrath of Harlow 09 Sep 02 - 02:20 PM
SharonA 09 Sep 02 - 04:04 PM
GUEST 09 Sep 02 - 04:59 PM
Burke 09 Sep 02 - 05:21 PM
InOBU 09 Sep 02 - 05:29 PM
Celtic Soul 09 Sep 02 - 05:58 PM
Orac 10 Sep 02 - 12:52 PM
Orac 10 Sep 02 - 01:20 PM
Wesley S 10 Sep 02 - 01:45 PM
katlaughing 10 Sep 02 - 01:56 PM
SharonA 10 Sep 02 - 01:57 PM
Memphis Mud 10 Sep 02 - 02:08 PM
McGrath of Harlow 10 Sep 02 - 02:10 PM
Jerry Rasmussen 10 Sep 02 - 03:03 PM
Burke 10 Sep 02 - 05:23 PM
InOBU 10 Sep 02 - 05:30 PM
Genie 10 Sep 02 - 06:06 PM
Wolfgang 11 Sep 02 - 04:41 AM
Orac 11 Sep 02 - 05:03 AM
Gervase 11 Sep 02 - 05:39 AM
Suffet 11 Sep 02 - 06:58 AM
Orac 11 Sep 02 - 10:21 AM
Peg 11 Sep 02 - 10:33 AM
InOBU 11 Sep 02 - 10:40 AM
SharonA 11 Sep 02 - 10:41 AM
Jerry Rasmussen 11 Sep 02 - 01:05 PM
SharonA 11 Sep 02 - 02:39 PM
McGrath of Harlow 11 Sep 02 - 04:26 PM
Jerry Rasmussen 11 Sep 02 - 05:31 PM
greg stephens 11 Sep 02 - 05:55 PM
Jerry Rasmussen 11 Sep 02 - 06:56 PM
McGrath of Harlow 11 Sep 02 - 07:07 PM
InOBU 11 Sep 02 - 07:11 PM
McGrath of Harlow 11 Sep 02 - 07:17 PM
smallpiper 11 Sep 02 - 07:20 PM
Janice in NJ 12 Sep 02 - 07:08 AM
InOBU 12 Sep 02 - 07:35 AM
Janice in NJ 12 Sep 02 - 09:23 PM
InOBU 12 Sep 02 - 09:57 PM
InOBU 12 Sep 02 - 09:57 PM
Suffet 12 Sep 02 - 10:58 PM
InOBU 12 Sep 02 - 11:44 PM
katlaughing 12 Sep 02 - 11:59 PM
Wolfgang 16 Sep 02 - 08:13 AM
Suffet 16 Sep 02 - 08:55 AM
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Subject: A new definition of 'folk' & 9/11
From: InOBU
Date: 09 Sep 02 - 04:09 AM

Well, I don't want to sound like the Rodney Dangerfield of folk... ("I don't get no respect..." for our British and other overseas folkies who may not know Rodney...) But, I was thinking of what it is to be a folk singer these days... after being asked to sing at a commemoraiton of 9/11 in Washington Square Park... the evening of the 10th... right after they turn off the sound system for all the people with a name...
What is in a name? I recall our dear Phil Ochs saying, in Toronto, shortly before he took his own life, (the pain of no one listening) I think I can rememeber pretty well, "I'm going to do a protest song for you nice people... what is a protest song? It is a song you don't hear on the radio, because they say the words are no good, or the guy can't sing... while they are playing the crap they play... "
and there it is, we go on singing truth to power, we the unsigned bands, who as a result only get played on non-cmercial radio, get to sing our lungs out after the "real music" goes home, we get to busk on the subway, in hundred degree heat, or freezing our fingers in gloves with the digits cut out, so that some folks can give us the "look at the beggar" gaze, or so we can be run off by some scab with a licence to play from the state... so we keep on singing and playing, and folks ask me, like they did in Easton today, "Why can't we get your CDs in the music stores?" and we keep at it,
and I don't know why... cause we can't help it?
Becasue it is 4 AM in New York, a year on, and, well...
Larry


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Subject: RE: A new definition of 'folk' & 9/11
From: smallpiper
Date: 09 Sep 02 - 04:39 AM

Keep at it Larry - more people listen than you think (even if they don't know it).


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Subject: RE: A new definition of 'folk' & 9/11
From: Skipper Jack
Date: 09 Sep 02 - 04:50 AM

I agree with your sentiments all the way.


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Subject: RE: A new definition of 'folk' & 9/11
From: Orac
Date: 09 Sep 02 - 05:05 AM

Just an irritating point... to most people in the world 9/11 is the 9th of November... I'm sure thats not what you mean.


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Subject: RE: A new definition of 'folk' & 9/11
From: greg stephens
Date: 09 Sep 02 - 07:27 AM

I think youre being a little pedantic Orac. I think we mostly know what 9/11 means by now, however we may write dates where we live. Keep the songs coming, InOBU/Larry


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Subject: RE: A new definition of 'folk' & 9/11
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Sep 02 - 07:35 AM

This side of the pond (Wales) we know what you mean by 9/11, ever since last year, but prior to that it was just your emergency services number.

I've heard of lots of plans for a minute's silence on Wednesday, and will keep you in my thoughts

Nigel


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Subject: RE: A new definition of 'folk' & 9/11
From: Orac
Date: 09 Sep 02 - 07:48 AM

You might think I'm being pedantic but most people are unused to this backwards American dating. As time passes I find that even I keep thinking that it is 9th Nov despite knowing when it was. I'm quite sure that if scoolchildren over here were asked a question about it being given the above information they would get the date wrong. Americans are not even consistant abot this.. Independance day is usually 4th July not July 4 ...


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Subject: RE: A new definition of 'folk' & 9/11
From: Big Mick
Date: 09 Sep 02 - 08:01 AM

Orac, I tire of folks like you. I have a simple truth for you. We are not you. Where you are you may do as you like. Where we are, we will do as we please. Brits and Irish people drive on the wrong side of the road to us and most of the world. So what? When in Rome and all that.

I have great respect for the various cultures and societies of the world. I revel in our differences. It is the spice that gives the world flavor. But I am tired of folks from other countries telling Americans what is wrong with us. When we do that you accuse of us trying to strip you of identity and make the world "americanized". We are who we are, you are who you are. We should enjoy that which is different and revel in what we have in common.

And to me it is always referred to as September 11.

Mick


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Subject: RE: A new definition of 'folk' & 9/11
From: Amos
Date: 09 Sep 02 - 09:36 AM

We have several forms of date notation over here. For computer use we find YYMMDD is valuable because files so named sort chronologically, as in 010911. Then we use 9-11-2001 sometimes, and other times it 09SEP01, or 9/11/01. And then again we do have some who enjoy writing 11/09/01.

Sorry we didn't consult with your majesties before developing these variants.

Pity we're not subjects -- you could jam your 11/9/001 convention right down our throats, eh?

Fortunately, most folks are tolerant of the variations.

A


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Subject: RE: A new definition of 'folk' & 9/11
From: GUEST,Pete
Date: 09 Sep 02 - 10:29 AM

Please don't tar all Brits with the same brush. Most of us recognise a pedantic prat when we come across one


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Subject: RE: A new definition of 'folk' & 9/11
From: Orac
Date: 09 Sep 02 - 10:33 AM

Hello again.. This is nothing to do with driving on the other side of the road. What is happening here is that we are all talking to an international group. You Americans are not just talking to each other here. No-one gives a damn if you say 11th Sept or Sept 11th ... but if you just use numbers... and reverse the order ... we don't know what the hell we all mean do we. I'm quite aware that we all do things differently like spellings etc and this is not a critism of any of that... its just about clarity of meaning.


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Subject: RE: A new definition of 'folk' & 9/11
From: Orac
Date: 09 Sep 02 - 10:37 AM

And Pete.. do you always refer to people as prats just because you disagree with them. That seems a hasty point of view.


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Subject: RE: A new definition of 'folk' & 9/11
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Sep 02 - 11:35 AM

Larry, thanks for your posting. We need to keep speaking out, for there is power in numbers and in grassroots. Thank you for all of your tireless work.

Orac, you are being quite rude. This is an American owned and operated site full of extremely erudite people from all around the world. You will notice that the dating of postings here conforms to that which is common in the UK. To hijack this thread for a small thing as you did, then keep at it, is disrespectful, tedious, and off-putting. Most of the world knows the meaning of 9/11 in this context including schoolchildren.

Anyone else proud of Larry and grateful for his contributions?

kat


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Subject: RE: A new definition of 'folk' & 9/11
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Sep 02 - 02:20 PM

Now there's a time for thread drift, and theres a time to avoid it, and this is a time and place where the old give and take of national variations and teasing and pedantry, and so forth, all of which can be fun enough, just doesn't belong. (Like most people here I refer to it as September 11 to be clearer, and because anyway, I never use numbers to refer to dates in speech. Give me a date with numbers and I always have to do mental arithmetic, unless maybe it's January.)

Yes, we're invisible and unheard, as InOBU reminds us. That's not all bad. It puts us on the same side of the divide as all the ordinary people who've sung and made music all the centuries, and on the other side from the music industry that stands over us mechanically churning stuff out. But I predict that, just as has always been the case, it'll be our side of the divide that will be searched out and will be the stuff of the oral history, when it gets written.


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Subject: RE: A new definition of 'folk' & 9/11
From: SharonA
Date: 09 Sep 02 - 04:04 PM

We could always ask Little Hawk what the Star Date for September 11, 2001 is. ;^)

By the way, Orac, the date of US's Independence Day is referred to here in the States as either "July 4th" or "The Fourth of July", but never "4th July". Likewise, we would say "the eleventh of September" if we were to put the day before the month when speaking or writing it out. It would be interesting to research the origins of the MM/DD/YY and DD/MM/YY shorthand and to investigate the circumstances that led to the divergence in notation (for instance, when the calendar was originally invented, which notation was used?). But I think that the worldwide coverage of the terrorist attacks and their aftermath has already defeated your argument that the meaning of the term "9/11" is unclear; if one were to refer to the tragedy as "11/9", I think it would be less clear that the attacks occurred in the US, where the MM/DD/YY notation is used.

Because I'm sure that the terrorists picked that date because of the US's use of "911" as an emergency telephone number, I always get a feeling that the terrorists have scored an additional tiny victory whenever announcers on TV or radio say "nine-eleven" when they refer to the attacks (even though we Yanks call the emergency number "nine-one-one"). I myself prefer to say "September 11th" when speaking aloud of the attacks; it's just a little trick to keep the two dissociated in my mind, but it makes me feel that I'm not thinking in the defeatist way the terrorists want me to, because I'm not mentally equating "terrorism" with "life-threatening emergency". Does that make sense to anyone else but me?

As far as Larry's dilemma goes, it seems to me that the people who want his CD's in the music stores should be asking the music stores instead of asking Larry! If enough people demand that songs of truth are what they want to buy, the commercial-music industry will eventually have to listen to their consumers and put more songs of truth on the airwaves and store shelves.


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Subject: RE: A new definition of 'folk' & 9/11
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Sep 02 - 04:59 PM

By your logic, Orac, we'd ask Pete not to use the word "prat" because it isn't used throughout the known world-Not necessary though, because we do know what a "prat" is--


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Subject: RE: A new definition of 'folk' & 9/11
From: Burke
Date: 09 Sep 02 - 05:21 PM

Most of the time when we speak of major events we can give them a name: Pearl Harbor, D-Day, even July 4 is Independance Day. The terrorits events of Sept. 11, 2001 happened in 3 different places so 'naming' the event has been really difficult. If we could have found another way to talk of the whole day in some other way, we probably would have. To name it for the destruction of the WTC would omit the Pentagon & crash in PA.

Normally in conversation we say the name of the month & using the numbers is a written shorthand. After all July 4 is not called either seven-four or four-seven. I don't know if the terrorists picked the date because of it's 911 connection. A year ago in the middle of the day's events most everyone did realize that the day's date was 9-11 & made the connection with the emergency number.

We have all needed a way to talk about the day. Early on it was "Attack on America." I'm glad I haven't heard that in a while. I don't like 9-11 because it's my niece's birthday, and I don't like a day being forever branded; but so far 9-11 is the only thing that really works. Language changes & eventually we'll develop a way to separate 911 for emergencies in general from 9-11 the event.

Anna Quindlen writes about the bifurcation of the day in Newsweek's Last Word column Sept. 9 issue. Sept. 11 is also her son's birthday. "September 11 is my boy's birthday; 9-11 is something else. That is the way we have to live, or we cannot really go on living at all." I agreee with her, and will save Sept. 11 for my niece.

Cataloger's had big debates about the subject heading to be used for it. Here's the Library of Congress heading, followed by all the terms not used that they thought were needed for references:

USE: September 11 Terrorist Attacks, 2001
NOT USED: 9/11 Terrorist Attacks, 2001
911 Terrorist Attacks, 2001
Attack on America, 2001 (September 11 Terrorist Attacks)
Pentagon (Va.) -- Terrorist Attack, 2001
Pentagon-World Trade Center Terrorist Attacks, 2001
Sept. 11 Terrorist Attacks, 2001
September 11 Terror Attacks, 2001
September 11 Terrorism, 2001
Terrorist Attacks, September 11, 2001
World Trade Center (New York, N.Y.) -- Terrorist Attack, 2001
World Trade Center-Pentagon Terrorist Attacks, 2001


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Subject: RE: A new definition of 'folk' & 9/11
From: InOBU
Date: 09 Sep 02 - 05:29 PM

Thanks for the kind words, Kat, Kev, Sharon and all, it is a hard row hoe, but well... as to the (/11 or 11/9 stuff, geeze... talk about I don't get no respect! Cheers Larry


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Subject: RE: A new definition of 'folk' & 9/11
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 09 Sep 02 - 05:58 PM

Orac...

In Japan, names are family name first and given name second. Should we, the rest of the world, impose upon them our own methods of given first and family second? 9/11 happened in the US. We will date it by our own methods. As Greg pointed out, it's not some obscure American holiday that is in question. By now, I would think that everyone knows not only what happened on that date, but much as with Pearl Harbour, they can tell you where they were when they first heard.

As for the sentiments, InOBU, when it hurts too much to do anymore, stop (or do it for yourself alone). Until then, keep the fire burning, my friend. There are more people interested than perhaps you know.


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Subject: RE: A new definition of 'folk' & 9/11
From: Orac
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 12:52 PM

Strewth... some folks do take umbridge easily. All that I was saying was here on Mudcat can we all PLEASE when we are giving a date give the month in words. (And mudcat is all about sharing information surely.) If I said my birthday was 12/5 I would not expect a card to turn up in december but it would be my own fault if it did. There are prenty of instances on here where historical information has been given in a misleading way. It has been stated above that this is an American site. ... Well you tell me then how we are supposed to know the location of anyone posting here... we dont... they could be anywhere. So who owns and runs the site is completely irrelevant....


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Subject: RE: A new definition of 'folk' & 9/11
From: Orac
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 01:20 PM

SharonA .. just one thing "4th July" is always read out loud as "the 4th of July". You don't need to write the "of" ..(or even "the") it is there without being written. So your point is reather lost on me.


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Subject: RE: A new definition of 'folk' & 9/11
From: Wesley S
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 01:45 PM

Orac - In the future if you find more of these dates that bother you on the Mudcat please fell free to PM me for a translation. I'm an American and being open minded I'll be happy to attempt to clear up any confusion you might have. If possible.


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Subject: RE: A new definition of 'folk' & 9/11
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 01:56 PM

HeyaWesley...maybe we need to spell out "PM," too? Just in case, Orac, it means "Personal Message" which you can do by going to your Personal Page.

As to how to tell where phoaks are from, wander around the site some, take a look at the LOCATOR page for starters. Then you could hunt through the threads, using the thread title function and setting the date back a ways and read those which say things such as "Where in the world are you?"

kat - Colorado


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Subject: RE: A new definition of 'folk' & 9/11
From: SharonA
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 01:57 PM

Orac: You say that "4th July" is always read out loud as "the 4th of July"... but by whom? Not by any Americans I know personally. I think that perhaps this is another example of cultural differences in the way people write and speak.


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Subject: RE: A new definition of 'folk' & 9/11
From: Memphis Mud
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 02:08 PM

I did some work for the Emergency 911 organization a while back. When they were setting up operations and getting the word out, they were adamant about saying "nine one one" and not "nine eleven". The reason, according to the executive director, was that people complained that their phones didn't have an "eleven" button on them.


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Subject: RE: A new definition of 'folk' & 9/11
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 02:10 PM

Weirdest one yet is what I saw in an English paper where it referred to "S11". No thanks. I think that shows lack of respect.


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Subject: RE: A new definition of 'folk' & 9/11
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 03:03 PM

Hi, Kat: Thanks for clarifying that for me. I thought PM stood for Post Mortum. :-)

Jerry


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Subject: RE: A new definition of 'folk' & 9/11
From: Burke
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 05:23 PM

Orac, being in the US, I have found myself at times confused by number only announcements posted from the other side of the pond. I get your point, but have say you picked the wrong thread to complain in.

Messages above have outlined how we ended up with 9-11 to refer to last year. Sorry, you, I & the rest of the world are stuck with it. 9-11 (Nine eleven) is fast becoming a term in it's own right that is just simply a special case.

Do your complaining in a thread where people really might be confused. If you can't find one, maybe it's because most of the time people in this forum are aware of the problem and do name the month weather they put the day in front of, or behind it.

In the mean time this is what I'm hearing:
nine-eleven -- refers to the events of Sept. 11, 2001
nine-one-one -- emergency number
September eleven(th) -- the day in Sept. between the 10th & the 12th on which we celebrate births, anniversaries & other personal events of meaning; conduct business; basically live our lives.


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Subject: RE: A new definition of 'folk' & 9/11
From: InOBU
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 05:30 PM

I apreciate the thread drift... but as this is a music site, and I seldom hark to the calls to not post non-music threads... I oftne talk about current events etc... BUT this was, after all, about how unsigned bands are in fact, real folk, that the process of signing bands often involves a form of censorship in the US, where sex and violence is sought after by record companies, but people's politics are not... as to the date, perhaps that can be another thread????????????
Cheers Larry


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Subject: RE: A new definition of 'folk' & 9/11
From: Genie
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 06:06 PM

Orac, you do have a point about postin dates in general in an internationally used site like Mudcat. If you said your birthday was 12-5-19??, I'd probably send your greetings to you in December. To avoid confusion, it would really help to write out the name of the month.

I don't think this is necessary in the context of discussion of the Al Quaeda attacks on Sept. 11, 2002, though, any more than when saying that we Americans are getting ready for our firework displays on "7-11." (As for writing "...4th July...," that would not be proper American English, would it? It's a kind of shorthand that people would understand, but I've never seen it written that way in a newspaper, magazine, or book.

And while we're drifting within this thread, let me say that every time I hear a Brit call someone a "prat," I'm glad I don't live in the UK. (My last name is "Pratt," and while I've always known of the other meaning, fortunately, hardly anyone in the US makes that connection to the name.)

----

Larry, I share your frustration over the music situation. When I was putting my own feelings about the 9-11 attacks into song and reading those of other folk musicians (including Tom Paxton), I realized that the songs about 9-11 which the bulk of the public would hear would -- as with any other kind of music -- be those written, performed, and recorded by well-established commercial artists.

Some of those songs, like "Where Were You When The World Stopped Turning," are quite good. But there are others like the ones by Toby Keith and Charlie Daniels and Cheryl Crowe, and a few others which got airplay just because they were done by big name performers.

There's a website someone linked to in an earlier thread which was all about songs about September 11, and it seemed to have some good songs by unknown songwriters. It does seem a shame that even when it comes to honoring the victims and heroes of the attacks of 9-11, there is no ready means whereby the real "cream" of the poems and songs can "rise to the top" of public awareness. So many folksingers' songs are like "flowers ... born to waste [their] sweetness on the desert air."

Genie


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Subject: RE: A new definition of 'folk' & 9/11
From: Wolfgang
Date: 11 Sep 02 - 04:41 AM

Sharon: You say that "4th July" is always read out loud as "the 4th of July"... but by whom? Not by any Americans I know personally.

Here is a part of the transcript of Bush's speech on 7402:

Today we mark the 226th birthday of the United States of America. Last year I spent my first Independence Day as your President in Philadelphia. This year I get to spend it in Ripley, West Virginia. (Applause.)

Shelly told me about the 4th of July celebration. She said I needed to come and meet the town. It looks like most of you showed up. (Laughter.)

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: A new definition of 'folk' & 9/11
From: Orac
Date: 11 Sep 02 - 05:03 AM

Americans are not at all consistant about the order of dates... either speaking or writing it down. The fact that you can choose the order of system dates stored on American computors bears this out. I really don't understand the arrogant comments by certain individuals who are clearly blind to this. I'm very well aware what 9/11 means but it isn't the only date turning up on here is it for gods sake.. cant you see that. A large number of postings on here are by bods from the UK. Our main celebation day over here is Bonfire night.... thats 5/11 ... 5th November.


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Subject: RE: A new definition of 'folk' & 9/11
From: Gervase
Date: 11 Sep 02 - 05:39 AM

I've just had to pinch myself to make sure I'm not hallucinating. Is there really someone so pedantic and lacking in humour, wit and sentiment that s/he feels the need to intrude into what was designed to be a discussion over Larry's feelings about making a musical contribution to try to heal a riven country?
As a Brit I do apologise for the intrusion of someone I assume to be a fellow countryman.
I haven't felt much like contributing to any of the threads on 9/11; partly through feeling repelled by much of the mawkishness peddled by the media and partly through a reticence to intrude into the private grief of another nation.
As the anniversary has approached, however, I can't deny that I've dwelt more and more on what happened on that day and on its consequences for the world. More than ever for me, Donne's words resonate and I offer the silent prayer of an atheist that we have seen the worst and will one day be able to say we survived it with our humanity intact.
And Larry, I'm sure you have done your bit to remind people through their own music of that humanity. Keep playing.


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Subject: RE: A new definition of 'folk' & 9/11
From: Suffet
Date: 11 Sep 02 - 06:58 AM

I was at Washington Square Park last night (Sept. 10th) as one of the invited performers. When I reached the security gate to the stage area with two other invited performers, we were turned away by the security person who informed us "No folksingers allowed inside!" We were given several conflicted explanations: we might be carrying weapons in our instrument cases, we weren't on the performer list, we were scheduled to perform without amplification so we should remain on the ground instead of on the stage, etc.

I didn't know that folksingers are seen as so potentially dangerous!

--- Steve


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Subject: RE: A new definition of 'folk' & 9/11
From: Orac
Date: 11 Sep 02 - 10:21 AM

I was just looking at the Mudcat front page... where it says at the top left.. "news as of 16.Dec.01" ...This is a US site ... I rest my case.


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Subject: RE: A new definition of 'folk' & 9/11
From: Peg
Date: 11 Sep 02 - 10:33 AM

I wrote a brief quotation from this piece of Donne's work (Every man's death diminishes me etc.) on my classroom blackboards in the days following the tragedy...I did it before even speaking to or greeting the students. They later admitted they were scared of me at first!

Donne's works are intense but I have found them comforting...


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Subject: RE: A new definition of 'folk' & 9/11
From: InOBU
Date: 11 Sep 02 - 10:40 AM

Good on ya Peg... Cheers, Larry


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Subject: RE: A new definition of 'folk' & 9/11
From: SharonA
Date: 11 Sep 02 - 10:41 AM

Wolfgang: You have reiterated what I said in my earlier post to this thread, on September 9th at 4:04 pm: "the date of US's Independence Day is referred to here in the States as either 'July 4th' or 'The Fourth of July', but never '4th July'. Orac's refutation was that " '4th July' is always read out loud as 'the 4th of July'. What I was trying to say to him, in the quote you pulled, is that when an American sees "4th July" written, (s)he does not automatically read it out loud as "the 4th of July"... at least, not any American I know does that. When we see "4th July", it's such an unusual notation to our eyes that we don't even automatically see it as "July 4th" without having to pause for half-a-second and interpret it. Now, if you can show me that the notes from which (P)resident Bush read his speech contain "4th July" and that that's what he read it aloud as "the 4th of July", then you will have disproven my point. Otherwise, I think you've made my point!

Orac: You'd have to ask Max to be absolutely certain, but it's been my impression that his DD-Month-YY notation system within the Mudcat website is in deference to those outside the US who use that system. Or perhaps it's just the system his internet provider uses, and he finds it simplest to conform to it. Either way, that system is by no means the norm within the US. Tell ya what: why don't you check out another thousand US sites, preferably those whose target audiences are US citizens, and then come tell us what dating-notation systems you find!


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Subject: RE: A new definition of 'folk' & 9/11
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 11 Sep 02 - 01:05 PM

Many years ago, I asked an audience of bluegrass fans who'd come to a folk concert series I ran, why they never come to hear folksingers. They said that they don't want to sit and listen to a whole evening of protest songs. I responded that protest songs are only a very small part of folk music, and that most of the performers who played in the series I ran couldn't be characterized as "protest singers." They might do a couple of songs about current situations they wanted to comment on, musically, but most of the songs were certainly not "protest songs."

As for 9/11, whether it reverses normal terminology or not, most people know what it means. I mean, c'mon... do you argue about whether Columbus sailed the ocean blue in fourteen ninety two or fourteen hundred and ninety two? And where has anyone ever seen the fourth OF July referred to in writing as 4th July? Is Christmas ever written out as being 25th December? Seems like everyone is avoiding Larry's subject.

Jerry


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Subject: RE: A new definition of 'folk' & 9/11
From: SharonA
Date: 11 Sep 02 - 02:39 PM

Larry (InOBU) said: "...this was, after all, about how unsigned bands are in fact, real folk, that the process of signing bands often involves a form of censorship in the US, where sex and violence is sought after by record companies, but people's politics are not..."

True, at least with some record companies. Guess it depends on the one with whom you sign. I wouldn't necessarily call that "censorship", though, but simply what the market will bear. As Jerry's post indicates, audiences need to have their awareness raised about what a folksinger is, and how (s)he differs from a protest singer... and from a "pop" singer like James Taylor or Gordon Lightfoot who will perform a folk song from time to time.

Guess it's partly a matter of finding the right promoter and the right venues, but mostly a matter of catching the wave of public interest and riding it.


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Subject: RE: A new definition of 'folk' & 9/11
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Sep 02 - 04:26 PM

"No folksingers allowed inside!" That sums it up.

As Woody put it:

Was a high wall there that tried to stop me
A sign was painted said: Private Property,
But on the back side it didn't say nothing --
Now that side was made for you and me!


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Subject: RE: A new definition of 'folk' & 9/11
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 11 Sep 02 - 05:31 PM

Hi, McGrath:

One of my favorite actual signs that I saw in Harlem in the 60's said:

NO TREPASSING

VIOLATORS WILL BE PERSECUTED

Jerry


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Subject: RE: A new definition of 'folk' & 9/11
From: greg stephens
Date: 11 Sep 02 - 05:55 PM

Larry/INObu: thanks for starting this thread. I've just been watching a documentary on NY firefighters made by some French brothers and Ithought of you and your songs.
And ,everybody, I realise I probably share an island with Orac: Iam not responsible for him, I do not agree with him, but nevertheless I apologise for him to you Americans. We are not all so crass on this side of the pond, as I hope you all realise..


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Subject: RE: A new definition of 'folk' & 9/11
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 11 Sep 02 - 06:56 PM

We's all proud as punch to know ya, Greg! :-)

Jerry


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Subject: RE: A new definition of 'folk' & 9/11
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Sep 02 - 07:07 PM

I've just been watching that one. Powerful stuff, and true stuff, and worth putting out. And Larry's song told the same story better than anything else that I've heard or seen.


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Subject: RE: A new definition of 'folk' & 9/11
From: InOBU
Date: 11 Sep 02 - 07:11 PM

Don't appologise for Orac! Part of the English charactor which comes to the surface from time to time is the old Saxon concern for correct detail, brought from Germany, and well, just that difference between Celts and such, It is the old image of the English officers concerned with the straightness of the lines and buttoned uniform tunics while the Zulu are upon them. It has a sort of touching quaintness, like there will always be an England long after there is no longer a Britain to speak of... all the above said with tongue firmly in cheek! Cheers Orac and all, peace and remember and hope
Larry


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Subject: RE: A new definition of 'folk' & 9/11
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Sep 02 - 07:17 PM

And here is a photo of our local fire station in Harlow today, with the flags of solidarity.

(And on the windows in the background there are signs you might just make out calling for support in the firefighters bid for a fair wage - which is the same thing their New York brothers are currently after as well, after three years without any kind of pay rise. Heroes may be beyond price, but...)


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Subject: RE: A new definition of 'folk' & 9/11
From: smallpiper
Date: 11 Sep 02 - 07:20 PM

Ditto to both greg and McGrath.

I like larrys song, "Remember they're with us" keep on doing it larry love to Gennie and soory I havn't sent that CD yet still recovering from my world ending in April


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Subject: RE: A new definition of 'folk' & 9/11
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 12 Sep 02 - 07:08 AM

"No folksingers need apply!"

That's not exactly what happened. Security was very tight in Washington Square Park on the eve of 9/11, and for good reason. Many of the speakers denounced not only the coming war in Iraq, but the current war against Al Qaeda and similar terrorist organizations. Also many of the speakers were from Arab-American and/or Muslim organizations. It was not a vigil in the usual meaning of the word, but more of an anti-war rally with candles.

Anyway, Steve (much as I like him) is a little confused. Pat Humphries performed from the stage, and she is certainly a folksinger. The security marshals at the gate searched her guitar case before allowing her in.

The issue wasn't whether you were a folksinger or not, but whether you performed with amplification. Those who used the amplification were allowed past the security gate. Those who performed without amplification were quite properly directed to the fountain area where they would perform after the power was turned off. This included a 25 piece classical ensemble from Brooklyn as well as a dozen or so folk musicians.


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Subject: RE: A new definition of 'folk' & 9/11
From: InOBU
Date: 12 Sep 02 - 07:35 AM

Hi Janice:
As I said at the outset of the thread... a new definition of folk... that the unsigned bands where not shown the proper respect. Why is that folk? and why is that vital? Well, it is a rare old record company that will not put the bottom line before the degree of tallent and the message, so the only hope for great new music of the people, is for progressive organisations like the War Risters League to put some of us before crowds, the way Lynne Stewart did, whose committee asked me to sing in a promenent possition in their rally on the basis of my message and tallent, not on the basis of wether or not my name was meaningful to a record company executive.
It was great to see lots of folks and folkies for peace all the same.
Cheers Larry


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Subject: RE: A new definition of 'folk' & 9/11
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 12 Sep 02 - 09:23 PM

But the War Resisters League did put a lot of performers before the public the night of Sept. 10th. Some performed with amplification, including a folk musician Pat Humphries and her entourage, a Latin-jazz group, a classical string quartet, and a chorale group. Then the power was turned off at around 10 pm, but the music continued. As I said previously, there was a 25 piece classical ensemble as well as about a dozen folkies. InOBU, what more do you want the War Resisters League to do? You know they are a peace organization, not a talent agency!


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Subject: RE: A new definition of 'folk' & 9/11
From: InOBU
Date: 12 Sep 02 - 09:57 PM

Janice, I think you are not responding to what I wrote. I don't think Steve and I could be clearer, but I will say it once more... the voice of progressive politics has always been the folk singers, who, today, are not the ones who are getting record contracts, as there has been a depolitising of the arts. Folk today, should concider that unsigned bands have a voice seldom heard. It has nothing to do with the WRL being a tallent agency.
all the best, Larry


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Subject: RE: A new definition of 'folk' & 9/11
From: InOBU
Date: 12 Sep 02 - 09:57 PM

PS Pat Humphrises was great. Cheers Larry


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Subject: RE: A new definition of 'folk' & 9/11
From: Suffet
Date: 12 Sep 02 - 10:58 PM

Let me reiterate Larry's argument from another perspective. Ever hear of a rap group called The Disciples? They are four young men from Brooklyn, and their songs are about human rights, stopping the exploitation of workers, struggling for peace and social justice, standing up to intolerance, etc.? Pete Seeger has praised their work. They have been written about in Vibe and in The Source, they've performed at street fairs and at public schools throughout New York and at the Donnell Branch of the New York Public Library, they appeared at a Clearwater festival, and they've even been on the PBS television show Rights and Wrongs.

My guess, however, is that you have never heard of The Disciples. That's because no major label wants them and no commercial radio or cable station gives them any airplay. Why not? Because they refuse to do the misogynist, homophobic, racist, xenophobic, violent crap, that passes for rap music. So they hold down day jobs while they give freebies or play for chump change, while rappers like Eminem and B.I.G. rake in millions upon millions with their dreck.

Larry, I'm with you on this one. And I agree Pat was great. And so were the people who sang with her, including Sandy, Ben, and all those kids.

--- Steve


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Subject: RE: A new definition of 'folk' & 9/11
From: InOBU
Date: 12 Sep 02 - 11:44 PM

Well Sreve, ya said it much better than I, that is exactly what I mean. Cheers old man, ... Larry


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Subject: RE: A new definition of 'folk' & 9/11
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Sep 02 - 11:59 PM

Steve is there anywhere one can get ahold of a tape or CD by The Disciples? I'd really like to hear their stuff.

Thanks,

kat


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Subject: RE: A new definition of 'folk' & 9/11
From: Wolfgang
Date: 16 Sep 02 - 08:13 AM

My mistake, Sharon, sorry. I had misread a part of your post.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: A new definition of 'folk' & 9/11
From: Suffet
Date: 16 Sep 02 - 08:55 AM

The Disciples have gone off in different directions -- jobs, school, families, etc. -- but they can be reassembled if the call comes. In fact, you can give them the call! To reach The Disciples, please telephone Tavarez Hardy at (646) 672-5309. If you don't recognize the 646 area code, it's been recently activated and it is for New York City, which already has 212, 718, and 917.

--- Steve


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