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Origins: Over the Hills and Far Away / O'er the...

DigiTrad:
OVER THE HILLS AND FAR AWAY
OVER THE HILLS AND FAR AWAY (2)
OVER THE HILLS AND FAR AWAY (4)
OVER THE HILLS AND FAR AWAY (OHIO, 4)
SO EARLY IN THE MORNING


Related threads:
Lyr Req: Over the Hills and Far Away (65)
Over the hills and far away. (40)
Chord Req: Over the Hills and Far Away (33)
Lyr Req: Over the Hills and Far Away (Napoleonic) (3)
over the hills and far away (2)


Thomas the Rhymer 09 Sep 02 - 04:57 PM
Doug Chadwick 09 Sep 02 - 05:20 PM
masato sakurai 09 Sep 02 - 11:21 PM
Joe Offer 10 Sep 02 - 12:15 AM
GUEST,stoulmin1@aol.com 11 Sep 02 - 12:21 AM
Jim Krause 11 Sep 02 - 12:46 AM
Teribus 11 Sep 02 - 03:37 AM
IanC 11 Sep 02 - 04:26 AM
Dave Bryant 11 Sep 02 - 06:18 AM
Jim Krause 11 Sep 02 - 11:32 AM
Pied Piper 11 Sep 02 - 11:59 AM
greg stephens 11 Sep 02 - 07:43 PM
GUEST,Jim Krause 11 Sep 02 - 11:22 PM
Mr Happy 12 Sep 02 - 09:48 PM
The Walrus at work 13 Sep 02 - 09:17 AM
Herga Kitty 13 Sep 02 - 03:41 PM
GUEST 13 Sep 02 - 04:30 PM
Gurney 15 Sep 02 - 05:13 AM
Liz the Squeak 15 Sep 02 - 05:24 AM
GUEST,A Lurker 15 Sep 02 - 11:05 AM
Malcolm Douglas 15 Sep 02 - 12:31 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 15 Sep 02 - 03:10 PM
greg stephens 15 Sep 02 - 03:18 PM
Jim Krause 15 Sep 02 - 04:54 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Sep 02 - 07:10 PM
Malcolm Douglas 15 Sep 02 - 09:00 PM
Teribus 16 Sep 02 - 09:17 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Sep 02 - 03:33 PM
GUEST,D.J.B. 22 Sep 04 - 06:32 AM
GUEST,Allen. 04 Jun 05 - 02:28 PM
Jim Dixon 02 Apr 10 - 01:35 PM
MGM·Lion 02 Apr 10 - 09:35 PM
Jim Dixon 03 Apr 10 - 01:23 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Apr 10 - 01:52 AM
stallion 03 Apr 10 - 02:23 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Apr 10 - 05:56 AM
Marje 03 Apr 10 - 06:50 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Apr 10 - 09:25 AM
GUEST,Megan 03 Apr 10 - 09:39 AM
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Subject: O'er the Hills
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 09 Sep 02 - 04:57 PM

I have great interest in this song. I believe it was written at the time of the Spanish succession, and that it is Brittish is to be considered sure, yet Martyn Carthy's excelent version may not be the "origional". Can anyone inform me about this?

O'er the hills and o'er the main
Through flanders Portugal and Spain
Queen Anne commands and we'll obey
And go over the hills and far away...

Such is the chorus I know...ttr


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Subject: RE: O'er the Hills
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 09 Sep 02 - 05:20 PM

Two versions, with explanatory notes, are available at
Version1 and Version2

Doug C


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Subject: RE: O'er the Hills
From: masato sakurai
Date: 09 Sep 02 - 11:21 PM

Versions in the DT are (the second is what is asked for):

OVER THE HILLS AND FAR AWAY (John Gay) (from Beggar's Opera)

OVER THE HILLS AND FAR AWAY (2)

OVER THE HILLS AND FAR AWAY (4) (From Pills to Purge Melancholy)

OVER THE HILLS AND FAR AWAY (OHIO, 4) (Another version of The Wind it Blew my Plaid Awa'; From the French and Indian War)

SO EARLY IN THE MORNING (From The Irish Songbook, Clancy Bros. & Tommy Makem)

One of the discussions in the Forum is:

'O'er the Hills and Far Away'

See the Pills to Purge Melancholy (1706) version: The Recruiting Officer: Or, the Merry Volunteers (from Bruce Olson's site). This is probably the original you are asking for.

Martin Carthy's versions (from Garry Gillard's site) are:

(1) Over The Hills And Far Away ("Hark now the drums they beat again")

(2) Over The Hills And Far Away ("Tom he was a piper's son")

~Masato


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Subject: ZDTStudy: Over the Hills and Far Away
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 12:15 AM

Looks like a good start toward a DTSTudy. I'll tag it as a DTStudy, and let's see where it goes.
-Joe Offer

Here's the entry from the Traditional Ballad Index.

O'er the Hills and Far Away (I)

DESCRIPTION: (Jocky) the piper "learned to play when he was young," but "the a' tunes that he could play Was o'er the hills and far away." Rejected by Jenny, he laments his fate, declares "I'll never trust a woman more," and intends to spend his life playing the pipes
AUTHOR: unknown
EARLIEST DATE: 1709 (_Pills to Purge Melancholy_, per Opie-Oxford2)
KEYWORDS: love courting rejection music dancing
FOUND IN: Britain Australia
REFERENCES (7 citations):
Logan, pp. 330-334, "O'er the Hills and Far Away" (1 text)
Meredith/Covell/Brown, p. 248, "(O'er the Hills and Far Away)" (1 fragment)
Opie-Oxford2 507, "Jockey was a piper's son" (1 text)
DT, OVRHILL4*
ADDITIONAL: Allan Ramsay, The Tea-Table Miscellany: or, A Collection of Scots Sangs (in three vols) (London, 1733 (ninth edition) ("Digitized by Google")), Vol. I, pp. 192-194, "O'er the Hills and Far Away" ("Jocky met with Jenny fair") (1 text)
Alexander Whitelaw, A Book of Scottish Song (Glasgow, 1845 ("Digitized by Google")), pp. 145-146, "Jocky Met Wi' Jenny" (1 text)
James Johnson, Editor, _The Scots Musical Museum_ [1853 edition], volume I, #62, p. 62-63, "O'er the Hills and Far Away" (1 text, 1 tune)

ST Arn017 (Full)
Roud #8460
CROSS-REFERENCES:
cf. "Over the Hills So Far Away" (lyrics)
SAME TUNE:
The Hubble Bubble (Logan, pp. 196-198)
ALTERNATE TITLES:
Jockey's Lamentation
NOTES: It has been conjectured that this is descended from one or another version of "The Elfin Knight," with which it shares a few scattered lyrics and perhaps a plaintive feeling. But it is more likely that it was inspired by, rather than descended from, the older ballad, as this appears to have been originally a broadside.
Pieces with this name are common; John Gay had one in the Beggar's Opera. This version is characterized by the lines quoted in the description, which seem to show up even in the degenerate forms such as "Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son" (which appears to be nothing more than a dance tune; compare the Baring-Gould text). � RBW
Opie-Oxford2: "According to J.W. Ebsworth (Roxburghe Ballads) this was written by P.A. Motteux for D'Urfey's comedy, The Campaigners, 1698, but it is not in the published version of the play."
Whitelaw (1845): "The song here given is, with the exception of the chorus, not properly a Scottish production, being rather a London imitation of Scottish song, brought out about the beginning of the last century...." - BS
Last updated in version 3.0
File: Arn017


Over the Hills So Far Away

DESCRIPTION: "Possum ran from under the barn, Fiddle bow under his arm, The only tune that be could play Was Over the hills so far away." (x3) "The old cow died in the forks of the branch, Over the hills so far away; Possum had a regular dance, Over the hills...."
AUTHOR: unknown
EARLIEST DATE: 1913 (Brown)
KEYWORDS: animal music dancing
FOUND IN: US(SE)
REFERENCES (1 citation):
BrownIII 165, "Over the Hills So Far Away" (1 text)
CROSS-REFERENCES:
cf. "O'er the Hills and Far Away (I)" (lyrics)
NOTES: Almost certainly derived as some degree from "O'er the Hills and Far Away (I)," but since the outcome is an animal song, I classify this separately. - RBW
File: Br3165

Go to the Ballad Search form
Go to the Ballad Index Song List

Go to the Ballad Index Instructions
Go to the Ballad Index Bibliography or Discography

The Ballad Index Copyright 2013 by Robert B. Waltz and David G. Engle.


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Subject: Lyr Add: OVER THE HILLS AND FAR AWAY (Toulmin)
From: GUEST,stoulmin1@aol.com
Date: 11 Sep 02 - 12:21 AM

I don't know the answer to your question. But I have a semi-modern version in which I added some verses that may be appropriate; see below.

OVER THE HILLS AND FAR AWAY

Traditional, originally c. 1620 Napoleonic version, c. 1812

Semi-modern version revised and with new verses, 2002 by Llewellyn M. Toulmin

Here's fourteen shillings on the drum,
For those who'll volunteer to come.
To 'list and fight the foe today,
Over the hills and far away.

Chorus:
O'er the hills and o'er the main,
Through Flanders, Portugal and Spain.
The captain calls, we must obey.
Over the hills and far away.

When evil stalks upon the land,
I'll nyther hold nor stay me' hand,
But fight to win a better day.
Over the hills and far away.

Through fire and smoke and shot and shell,
Unto the very mouth of hell.
We'll fight until the Devil pay,
Over the hills and far away.

In Spain we fought the French four years,
Torres Vedras brought them tears.
At Badajoz they ran away,
Over the hills and far away.

Now though I travel far from Spain,
A part of me shall yet remain.
For she is with me night and day,
Over the hills and far away.

If I should fall to rise no more,
As many comrades did before,
Ask the pipes and drums to play,
Over the hills and far away.

And now I fight in foreign lands.
My foes - and friends - are both Afghans.
We'll fight until a peaceful day,
Over the hills and far away

So fall in lads behind the drum,
With Colours blazing like the sun,
Along the road to come what may.
Over the hills and far away.


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Subject: RE: O'er the Hills
From: Jim Krause
Date: 11 Sep 02 - 12:46 AM

TtR, It comes from Gay's ballad opera "The Beggar's Opera" first staged in London in 1728. The lyrics you posted are a military parody dating from quite a bit later, although I don't quite understand the Queen Anne reference, since I believe she was dead and the Hanoverians were on the English throne when Gay's opera was produced.
Jim


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Subject: RE: O'er the Hills
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Sep 02 - 03:37 AM

From the above links supplied by Masato, this is one of those songs that has been added to and altered through the passage of time.

Some of the lyrics and dates given substantiate the Queen Anne period of the Wars of the Spanish Succession. The only anomaly in some of them is the line of the chorus

"Through Flanders, Portugal and Spain"

While actions in this particular war did take place in Flanders, Germany, Italy and Spain - Portugal was not involved.

I think that this particular line comes from Napoleonic times. The tune and song were adopted by the 95th Rifles, long before John Tams wrote his version for the Sharpe series of television programmes - at least according to the Rifle Regiments museum in Winchester.

The Female Drummer is another example of soldiers marching songs that cover both the Napoleonic/French Revolutionary Wars and the Wars of the Spanish Succesion.


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Subject: RE: O'er the Hills
From: IanC
Date: 11 Sep 02 - 04:26 AM

Jim

The Beggars Opera included a number of existing popular songs. That the song is included does not mean it was written for it.

:-)
Ian


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Subject: RE: O'er the Hills
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 11 Sep 02 - 06:18 AM

There's more discussion on this thread about John Tams and the "Sharpes Rifles" series.


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Subject: RE: O'er the Hills
From: Jim Krause
Date: 11 Sep 02 - 11:32 AM

Ian, Yes I knew that. What I didn't know was how far back before the Beggar's Opera the tune was current. I was using the opera to give some estimation of the antiquity of the song, to the best of my knowlege.

And thanks to Teribus and Dave Bryant for the link to John Tams. I had always wondered who re-wrote the lyric for the Sharpe's Rifles programs. I've had requests for that version of the song.
Jim


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Subject: RE: O'er the Hills
From: Pied Piper
Date: 11 Sep 02 - 11:59 AM

It's a lovely tune. I play it on the Highland Pipes with a Drone re-tuned to Eb. Like a lot of tunes from Scotland and the North of England it ends on the second of the scale not the tonic, which contributes to its plaintive feeling. All the best PP.


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Subject: RE: O'er the Hills
From: greg stephens
Date: 11 Sep 02 - 07:43 PM

The Beggar's Opera contained no original music at all. John Gay specifically used music currently popular to get the effect he wanted.The use of "Over the hills and far away" is a fantastically moving bit of the play,by the way.


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Subject: RE: O'er the Hills
From: GUEST,Jim Krause
Date: 11 Sep 02 - 11:22 PM

A very lovely tune, indeed. I really like singing it.
Jim


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Subject: RE: O'er the Hills
From: Mr Happy
Date: 12 Sep 02 - 09:48 PM

last night, in my session at the uv i chester; colin of folkorbit sang this. accompanied by me me me melodeon,jim banjo,janina flute,dixie accordian. a truly bril song. aslo, when i was a morris dancer, the tune was for the'stave dance'


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Subject: RE: O'er the Hills
From: The Walrus at work
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 09:17 AM

Many years ago, I caame across two verses purporting to come from the death of Marlborough (daamned if I can remember where I got them):

All Grenadiers, now change your song,
And sing no more of battles won,
No victory shall grace us now
Since we have lost our Marlborough

You who have fought on Blenhein's field
And forced the strongest towns to yield,
Now break your arms and turn to plough
Since we have lost our Marlborough

Unfortunately, I don't have a chorus.

Best Wishes

Walrus


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Subject: RE: O'er the Hills
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 03:41 PM

I'd always associated this with Queen Anne and the war of Spanish Succession - and when I heard it recently as "the King commands and we obey" instead of "Queen Anne commands" it just didn't sound right...

Kitty


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Subject: RE: O'er the Hills
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 04:30 PM

All of the the songs in 'The Beggar's Opera' were original. None of the tunes were.


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Subject: RE: O'er the Hills
From: Gurney
Date: 15 Sep 02 - 05:13 AM

The version I vaguely know was (I think) called 'List, Bonny Laddy' and was Scottish. Chorus was "And it's over the mountains and over the Main, through Gibraltar, tae France and Spain, Victoria commands by land and sea, so list bonny laddy, an' come wi' me. Could try looking it up if you really want me to. Wassail.


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Subject: RE: O'er the Hills
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 15 Sep 02 - 05:24 AM

I remember the Marlborough verses - it was sung in a club as a reply to 'Marlborough and me' or 'the Queens' shilling', whatever it's called (tune became Waltzing Matilda).

I've never heard them before or since, thank you for posting them.

LTS


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Subject: RE: O'er the Hills
From: GUEST,A Lurker
Date: 15 Sep 02 - 11:05 AM

Can't find my book "Songs of the Civil War", so from unreliable memory - Liz, is the song you are referring to "The Rochester Recruiting Sergeant"? - the chorus starts 'who'll be a soldier' x 3 for Marlborough and me etc. If so, and yes the tune is Waltzing Matilda, it was written by Greg Butler of Strawhead! Great song.


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Subject: RE: O'er the Hills
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 15 Sep 02 - 12:31 PM

Gurney: the song you were thinking of is Twa Recruitin' Sergeants. The tune is still recognisably Over the Hills, though rather changed. It became widely popular among Revival singers through Jeannie Robertson's singing of it.


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Subject: RE: O'er the Hills
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 15 Sep 02 - 03:10 PM

Hi All! Sorry I didn't plug in to this fine discussion sooner, but I had a pesky virus and full system failure, which compounded my confusions...

I wonder about the tempo... would one speed up the tempo to play it as a piper? or would the rather slow tune be played with feeling and fullness? I imagined it at double speed, and it feels fine as a reel... Would this be traditionally (politically) correct?

ttr


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Subject: RE: O'er the Hills
From: greg stephens
Date: 15 Sep 02 - 03:18 PM

It's been played and sung in a lot of ways over the years, from rhythm-less slow air to rocking dance tune and march. It can take it! Do as you feel.


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Subject: RE: O'er the Hills
From: Jim Krause
Date: 15 Sep 02 - 04:54 PM

Hmmmm, I just tried humming it to myself as a march and a reel, and I didn't much care for it either way. I seem to have a better feel for it as a slow air. Probably because that's the way I recorded it. (Who'd a-thunk it!)
Jim


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Subject: RE: O'er the Hills
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Sep 02 - 07:10 PM

Mr. Lurker, The Rochester Recruit song is a bit older than Strawhead. It may or may not go back to the time of Marlborough,but certainly to the Boer War.
Malcom, the Twa Recruitng Sergeants tune is surely not that similar?
Over the hill,
Keith.


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Subject: RE: O'er the Hills
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 15 Sep 02 - 09:00 PM

Listen to it again; as I said, it's rather changed, but it's certainly derived from the earlier form.


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Subject: RE: O'er the Hills
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Sep 02 - 09:17 AM

I'd go along with what Malcolm says above, as dated to the War of the Spanish Succession the Black Watch did not exist - they were formed in 1719 as a single battalion regiment initially tasked with assisting General Wade's road building programme after the 1715 Jacobite Rebellion.

The Rochester Recruit song to the tune of Waltzing Matilda, I have been told is fairly new.


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Subject: RE: O'er the Hills
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Sep 02 - 03:33 PM

Rochester Recruiter is a great song for singarounds. I only know of it's origin from a mudcat discussion perhaps 2 years ago. The catters who know said it first turns up after the Boer War suggesting some British troops picked up the tune from some Ausies. I prefer to imagine it really is as old as Marlborough's campaigns and they stole the tune from us, but only because that story goes down well in Englsh pubs.
Who'll be a soldier,
Keith.


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Subject: RE: O'er the Hills
From: GUEST,D.J.B.
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 06:32 AM

DOES ANYBODY KNOW THE GUITAR CHORDS TO JOHN TAMS "OVER THE HILLS AND FAR AWAY"


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Subject: RE: O'er the Hills
From: GUEST,Allen.
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 02:28 PM

The Queen Anne version appears in Farquhar's Recruiting Officer of 1708(?).
Portugal is not an anomaly, there was a very inept Iberian campaign.
There's a detailed site somehwere, but can't find the blasted link.
Timeline

Thomas Babington Macaulay


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Subject: Lyr Add: JOCKEY'S LAMENTATION (from D'Urfey)
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 01:35 PM

From Wit and Mirth; or, Pills to Purge Melancholy edited by Thomas D'Urfey (London: J. Tonson, 1719), Vol. V, page 316ff:

JOCKEY'S LAMENTATION

1. Jockey met with Jenny fair
Betwixt the dawning and the Day,
And Jockey now is full of Care,
For Jenny stole his Heart away:
Altho' she promis'd to be true,
Yet she, alas, has prov'd unkind,
That which do make poor Jenny rue,
For Jenny's fickle as the Wind:

CHORUS: And, 'Tis o'er the Hills, and far away,
'Tis o'er the Hills, and far away,
'Tis o'er the Hills, and far away,
The Wind has blown my Plad away.

2. Jockey was a bonny Lad,
As e'er was born in Scotland fair;
But now poor Jockey is run mad,
For Jenny causes his Despair;
Jockey was a Piper's Son,
And fell in Love while he was young:
But all the Tunes that he could play,
Was, o'er the Hills, and far away, CHORUS

3. When first I saw my Jenny's Face,
She did appear with sike a Grace,
With muckle Joy my Heart was fill'd;
But now alas with Sorrow kill'd.
Oh! was she but as true as fair,
'Twou'd put an end to my Despair;
But ah, alass! this is unkind,
Which sore does terrify my Mind;

CHORUS: 'Twas o'er the Hills, and far away,
'Twas o'er the Hills, and far away,
'Twas o'er the Hills, and far away,
That Jenny stole my Heart away.

4. Did she but feel the dismal Woe
That for her Sake I undergo,
She surely then would grant Relief,
And put an end to all my Grief:
But oh, she is as false as fair,
Which causes all my sad Despair;
She triumphs in a proud Disdain,
And takes Delight to see my Pain; CHORUS

5. Hard was my Hap to fall in Love,
With one that does so faithless prove;
Hard was my fate to court the Maid,
That has my constant Heart betray'd;
A thousand times to me she swore,
She would be true for evermore:
But oh! alas, with Grief I say,
She's stole my Heart, and run away; CHORUS

6. Good gentle Cupid take my part,
And pierce this false one to the Heart,
That she may once but feel the Woe,
As I for her do undergo;
Oh! make her feel this raging Pain,
That for her Love I do sustain;
She sure would then more gentle be,
And soon repent her Cruelty; CHORUS

7. I now must wander for her sake,
Since that she will no Pity take,
Into the Woods and shady Grove,
And bid adieu to my false Love:
Since she is false whom I adore,
I ne'er will trust a Woman more,
From all their Charms I'll fly away,
And on my Pipe will sweetly play; CHORUS

8. There by my self I'll sing and say,
'Tis o'er the Hills, and far away,
That my poor Heart is gone astray,
Which makes me grieve both Night and Day;
Farewel, farewel, thou cruel she,
I fear that I shall die for thee:
But if I live, this Vow I'll make,
To love, no other for your sake.

CHORUS: 'Tis o'er the Hills, and far away,
'Tis o'er the Hills, and far away,
'Tis o'er the Hills, and far away,
The Wind has blown my Plad away.

[Note: the next song in the book is:

THE RECRUITING OFFICER: OR, THE MERRY VOLUNTEERS:
Being an Excellent New Copy of Verses upon raising Recruits.
To the foregoing Tune.

[The lyrics to that song have already been posted at Mudcat here: Lyr Add: THE RECRUITING OFFICER (from D'Urfey), and a shorter version is in the DT as OVER THE HILLS AND FAR AWAY (2).]


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Subject: RE: Origins: Over the Hills and Far Away / O'er the...
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 09:35 PM

The Rochester Recruiting Sergeant, to tune similar to Waltzing Matilda, mentioned above as a recent song, can't be that recent, as it is also called The Gay Fusilier & begins "The gay fusilier came marching down thru Rochester": surely a formulation which would have been unthinkable for the last 50 or so years, since the homosexual community hijacked that fine old adjective 'gay' for their own purposes ~~ I first came across this usage in Peter Wildeblood's account of his 1950s trial along with Lord Montagu Against The Law 1954} ~~ to the extent that this is now the "in modern use" given by, e.g., Chambers Dictionary, with other usages rubricated as archaic or obsolescent.

{I am sure we would all [except perhaps Ake] agree that they are of course welcome to a non-pejorative word; but it seems a pity to me that such a fine, gay old word should have been lost to the language!}


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Subject: RE: Origins: Over the Hills and Far Away / O'er th
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 01:23 AM

Funny, I never heard anyone complain that drug-users hijacked "those fine old words" high, stoned, joint, weed, etc.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Over the Hills and Far Away / O'er the...
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 01:52 AM

All those words, Jim, can still be used in their original primary senses also, without any concomitant sense of strain or embarrassment ~~ you can still have weeds in your garden, a joint for your Sunday dinner, an adultress can still be stoned in Saudi, the Sears Tower is still a high building ~~ now go & tell a guy in a colourful tie that he looks gay & see what kind of a look you get.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Over the Hills and Far Away / O'er the...
From: stallion
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 02:23 AM

I think MtheGM has a point but that's how society works,not so much hi-jacked as used, like bolt (a security device) and bolt as in horse running etc. I understand it's use to tidy up a tawdry image from the past but what I am interested in is if society comes to view gay as an insult and it used in a derogatory manner or has there been a real sea change in attitudes.............oh thread creep or what! Any way just recorded our version of the song which I gleaned, with help from the librarians, from C# house, nothing new, just not JT's version!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Over the Hills and Far Away / O'er the...
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 05:56 AM

No, Stallion ~~ you miss my point. The fact that 'bolt' has more than one meaning, both usable in any relevant context, has nothing to do with the fact that the word 'gay' can now be used in only one sense, & has lost its applications in any other ~~ which may still exist theoretically, but without being available without misunderstanding or resentment. That is what I mean when I say the word has been hijacked ~~ it has been, in effect, deprived in practical usage of all but one of its connotations.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Over the Hills and Far Away / O'er the...
From: Marje
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 06:50 AM

But the reason that "gay" now has only one meaning is because the straight community has deliberately stopped using it in its original sense, rather than risk any ambiguity. Many (most?) people are happy to continue to use "high", "weed" etc in the broader senses, but wary of using "gay" in its earlier, more general sense in case it is misunderstood or causes offence.

That's their choice. If people feel that the link with homosexuality has tainted the word, that's their problem. No one has "hijacked" the word or forbidden anyone else from using it as they wish - it's still there for the taking.

Marje


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Subject: RE: Origins: Over the Hills and Far Away / O'er the...
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 09:25 AM

Not sure I agree with you there, Marje. Theoretically you are right; but the 'gay' community's enthusiastic adoption of what used to be a recondite piece of prison slang because they preferred it to any of the then current alternatives {I am not saying I blame them: these tended to be offensive and they had every right to be offended by them} to the extent that they used it with a sort of defensive, proprietary,self-consciousness, meant that no-one else could use it in any of its primary senses without, in their own turn, a sort of self-consciousness verging on embarrassment; which has had, it seems to me, the effect of driving a useful & agreeable word out of currency. It's not a matter of thinking the word 'tainted' so much as the impossibility of using it without an atmospheric overtone immediately apparent to both speaker & listener which robs it of its communicative effectiveness.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Over the Hills and Far Away / O'er the...
From: GUEST,Megan
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 09:39 AM

Strange world cos his name appears on a seperate thread today. But, the USA Greenman Review said that Graham O'Callaghan's version of this song was in their mind THE difinitive arrangement on his album 'In This Heart' on Dragon Records. He sandwiches what is essentially the John Tamms re-write in between 2 verses of the Recruited Collier. Great arrangement and great singing accompanied by the original Dr Faustus line-up


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