Help: 'Traditional musicians' & Tuning?

Subject: RE: Help: 'Traditional musicians' & Tuning?
From: CraigS
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 08:03 PM

Sometimes you play tunes or sing songs in sessions which are not for joining in - but usually this is when everybody feels like a rest from playing and ASKS you to play or sing solo. Re: Melodeons - there are chromatic C/C# melodeons available, which can play in any key if you ignore the bass side - quite popular in Eire!

Subject: RE: Help: 'Traditional musicians' & Tuning?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 03:43 PM

"But joining in is the essence of a session so this should be the exception rather than the rule."

Sessions vary. I know some where it's the other way round - every now and then it turns into a jam, either a tune, or everyone playing on a song, but most of the time it's people taking it in turns, singing unaccompanied or with an instrument.

Of course I'm all in favour of people tuning to instruments that can't be tuned, or to the standard electronic tuning standard, if that's the same thing, which much of the time it is. Or if a bunch of people are tuned to some other pitch, the newcomer tunes in to that. And if you aren't in tune with the rest, you don't play at the same time as them and they don't play at the samer time as you. Stands to reason.

Subject: RE: Help: 'Traditional musicians' & Tuning?
From: Mudlark
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 03:33 PM

Great story, Declan.

The first time I ever sang with a mic I worked up the nerve to do Hong Kong Blues. And it went well until a guy on the stage with a mandolin started "helping me out." He revved up the tempo, dumbed down the phrasing, until finally I got so distracted I tangled up in some tricky chords at the end. Grrrrr.... So I agree, if you don't want "back up" be sure and say so.

On the other hand, as someone rightly pointed out, session playing is about communal music making. When singing on my own I tune my guitar down a bit to match my voice. But I always tune "properly" before arriving to play with others, and then make sure I'm in tune with them, as I don't use an electronic tuner. Even if this puts some songs out of my range, I can still harmonize, or just play rhythm.

Mr. Happy, it sounds to me like going off in a huff was the best thing this fiend could do for you.

Subject: RE: Help: 'Traditional musicians' & Tuning?
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 03:16 PM

The idea that "traditional musicians don't use concert pitch" is a bucket of idiot-drool. Maybe he didn't want anybody playing along with him, which, at times, is understandable—but if true, why didn't he just say so? Where is it written that "traditional musicians don't use concert pitch?" First of all, since when is this bozo a traditional musician? Sounds like he's trying to act "folkier than thou."

There is any number of practical reasons for using concert pitch. First of all, there are the fixed-pitch instruments—those whose pitch can't be changed, or, like a piano (or autoharp), would require a major effort to retune. Good quality fixed-pitch instruments are set at the 440=A (the international standard), for the simple reason that no professional musician, such as a clarinetist or flautist, is going to buy an instrument, no matter how good, that can't be played in tune with other instruments. [Musicians who play in Baroque or Early Music ensembles often use a different standard, but it is an agreed-upon standard.]

Variable pitch instruments, such as strings (violins, violas, cellos, harps, guitars, etc.)—especially good, concert-quality ones—are built with a particular string tension in mind, and they're a whole lot happier if you let the soundboard get used to that tension, and keep it there consistently. A new instrument "opens up" a lot better and a lot faster if you tune it to concert pitch and don't keep cranking it up and down. I've been told this by a couple of luthiers. Also, I own a couple of top quality Spanish-made guitars, I keep them at concert pitch, and they just keep getting better with time and playing.

Another practical reason to tune to a standard is that if everyone uses the same standard (and since most tuning forks come in 440=A, electronic tuners use 440=A as the default, and almost all fixed-pitch instruments are set at 440=A, what easier standard can their be?) is that if you and everybody else tunes your guitar, banjo, mandolin, of what-have-you is tuned to this standard before going to a session, you'll spend less time in the "tuning-up ritual" and can spend more time making music.

Kinda stupid not to. I really fail to understand the mentality of folkies (and they're generally the only ones who do this) who would rather commit suicide than abide by any of the same standards that other musicians abide by. These standards allow musicians to communicate and to work together—if they so choose. Not to do so is self-defeating. Sort of like "Rebel without a Brain."

Of course, if he really is a traditional musician and all he wants to do is sit on the front stoop, play his $10.00 Sears Roebuck guitar, and sing to the raccoons lurking in the underbrush, then it won't matter much how he tunes his guitar—or even if.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Help: 'Traditional musicians' & Tuning?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 03:02 PM

It should be OK in any session to say if you don't want people joining in with you if you are singing a song or playing a tune. But joining in is the essence of a session so this should be the exception rather than the rule. Of course, if he'd joined in with you lot with his non-concert pitch, you'd have been right to point it out.

If he only wants to do stuff on his own, you should point out that he might be happier at on open mic.

Subject: RE: Help: 'Traditional musicians' & Tuning?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 12:29 PM

I must admit to capo-ing up to keys like Gb when there are melodeon players around and I don't want them joining in on certain songs - mind you I've once had one playing G natural (sort of, his instrument was rather flat) to my Gb without seeming to worry. There are many times that you don't want someone else joining in - If you have a quiet voice (I don't) one enthusiastic Castagnari could easily drown you out. You might also be wanting a bit more control over the phrasing/tempo than you'd be allowed otherwise. It's easy to state at the beginning of a song that you'd like to do it solo.

On the other hand, if a musician deliberately tunes out of standard pitch, then they are also making it impossible for themselves to play in with the others - which might be a good thing for the others !

Subject: RE: Help: 'Traditional musicians' & Tuning?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 11:59 AM

Well he may have been a pillock, but...

As I remarked, if he was trying to play with others without tuning to them, all the criticisms are justified. But if he was just preferring not to have them playing with him when he was singing a song or two, I can't see there's anything wrong with that. I've never known a session where that isn't perfectly acceptable behaviour.

It can be bloody distracting if people leap in with a backing when they don't necessarily understand the tune, or when you're still a bit shaky on how it goes yourself. Not being in tune might have seemed a more tactful way of achieving that than saying it right out, though clearly in this case it turned out not to be. Capoing up and playing in an impossible key is another way so far as some instruments are concerned.

And if he was pointing out that there's really no universal "concert pitch" and that traditional musicians are often nowhere near the pitch of electronic tuners, that's true enough.

Subject: RE: Help: 'Traditional musicians' & Tuning?
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 11:00 AM

His claim that "traditional musicians don't use concert pitch" clearly indicates that he is NOT a traditional musician. He's just a wannabe from outside a tradition who doesn't get it trying to ape musicians he deems "traditional." It's a perfect example of a little knowledge (plus some attitude) being a dangerous thing.

It's not that traditional musicians won't tune to concert pitch, it's just that under certain circumstances they don't feel obligated to do so. They tune to a pitch that in some way works better for them than concert pitch.

The key phrase there is "under certain circumstances." If it is the traditional player's desire and intent to play solo, s/he can tune anywhere s/he wants. But a traditional musician knows that if you want to play solo you DON'T go to a public gathering to do it unless playing solo is a normal part of the activities. If it is NOT, then a traditional musician would expect that some tuning and retuning would be required until everyone is more or less together. Whether everyone would be at 440 is an entirely different matter.

Being a traditional musician is not simply a case of playing some tunes in a certain manner. It's knowing and respecting and trying to act in accordance with the "context" of the music as much as is feasible.

Which is not to say that traditional musicians do not include their share of jerks.

Subject: RE: Help: 'Traditional musicians' & Tuning?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 10:28 AM

Re: "traditional musicians don't use concert pitch." There isn't any such thing as concert pitch. James Galway, the famous classical flautist, has toured the world, and he says that pitch has been highest in Germany and lowest in the United States. The A that symphony orchestras tune to is the A on the oboe, not a common instrument for sessions.

However, I think tuners are a great idea. When I got a tuner and tuned by guitar to it, the guitar was suddenly twice as loud and mellow as before. For once, it was tuned to its proper resonant frequencies. Also, if you don't use tuners, people can spend much of their time tuning instead of playing.

How many beers had the unhappy guy had? That's got to be part of the equation. I have no sympathy for him.

Subject: RE: Help: 'Traditional musicians' & Tuning?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 10:03 AM

Subject: RE: Help: 'Traditional musicians' & Tuning?
From: Big Mick
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 08:45 AM

Declan is spot on. It depends on the instruments. This other lad sounds like he had the "giant in his own mind" syndrome. When there are reeded instruments, especially Uilleann Pipes, then you would want to tune to them. The reeds are so fussy, that often the best one can hope for is for them to be in tune relative to themselves, that is the drones, regulators, and chanters in tune to themselves. But even on a "Concert D" set, they rarely are 440. Better to tune the stringed instruments to them, or as Declan points out, the melodian.

And wish your friend well, .............. as you show him the door.

Mick

Subject: RE: Help: 'Traditional musicians' & Tuning?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 08:22 AM

Since Scabby Doug has already offered the opinion that the guy is a dick, I won't bother to offer my opinion, which is that he is an arse-hole. Anyone who doesn't understand a basic concept like "all instruments in a session should be tuned to an agreed upon pitch" should not be allowed to own an instrument that requires tuning. Be sure that representatives of the tuning police are on hand at your next session so they can confiscate his guitar.

Bruce

Subject: RE: Help: 'Traditional musicians' & Tuning?
From: Declan
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 08:14 AM

In that case I think everyone should tune to the melodeon. If its in concert that makes life easier for everybody but even if its not, if everyone tunes to a different 'correct' note either you don't get to play your box or it sounds wrong when you do.

If your fiend refuses to tune to the rest of the session, he shouldn't try to join in. If its so out of tune with the rest of the session that its unbearable, or even messing things up for some people then ask him to stop (or offer him a tuner which seems to have the same effect. And don't feel bad about it - its him that's out of order.

You may still have trouble with the whistles. A lot of non-tunable whistles seem to me to be out of tune with each other and everyone else.

Subject: RE: Help: 'Traditional musicians' & Tuning?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 07:53 AM

declan,

'Its not clear from your post what the instruments in the session were.'

me: 6 sting guitar & melodeon[no strings!]

others, guitars, banjo, whistles

Subject: RE: Help: 'Traditional musicians' & Tuning?
From: GUEST,Scabby Doug
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 07:28 AM

This guy sounds like a complete d**k.

Apart from the fact that a "traditional" musician would only ever have tuned by ear, and unless gifted with perfect pitch, this is the biggest lot of drivel I have ever heard. I bet this guy would also tell you that you were playing tunes "in the wrong key".

Even the most "traditional" of traditional musicians would recognise that if you're in a session situation, you tune to a common standard. Otherwise you're just out-of-tune. "In-tune" is not necessarily in-tune to concert pitch, most of the time, we settle for in-tune with one another.

Cheers

Steven

Subject: RE: Help: 'Traditional musicians' & Tuning?
From: greg stephens
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 07:19 AM

Re Ralphie's post: faced with a room full of D/G melodeons, playing in Aflat seems the best thing to do if you want to sing a song.

Subject: RE: Help: 'Traditional musicians' & Tuning?
From: Declan
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 07:14 AM

Certainly sounds like a fiend to me !

I must admit I found myself getting upset at someone offering me an electronic tuner at a session before. He might have taken it as an unsubtle way of telling him he was out of tune and taken offence. Some people believe, rightly or wrongly, that they are better able to tune thier instrument without the aid of electronics. And as I said on another thread recently its pointless being in concert if nobody else is.

Its not clear from your post what the instruments in the session were. If they were all easily tuned instruments then its not unreasonable to suggest that everyone gets into concert pitch, if they want to play together. Music doesn't sound right if everyone is not tuned to the same pitch. If as you say the person joined you, I would have tought the natural thing to do would be for him to tune to you rather than vice versa. Did he expect everyone else to tune to him instead? Or does he think its traditional for everyone to play randomly out of tune?

Its hard to make rules about these things but locally there's a sort of etiquette about these things - If there's a box (accordeon or concertina) people will usually tune to that - its not so easy to tune the box to fit in with everyone else. If its all strings then a 'consensus A' is found, with or without the aid of electronics or tuning forks and everyone tunes to that. Often people will tune to a whistle, but these can be notoriously dodgy for tuning. If there's a piper and no fixed instruments, we'd normally tune to the pipes, but beware because the pipes tend to get a bit sharper as the night progresses.

Of course some people don't bother tuning at all, which can be a real pain. A friend of mine who's a piper tells a story about playing at a session somewhere in the west of Ireland. A guitar player came in and started backing a tune in A minor with chords in 'D'. My friend turned to him after the tune and said "that tune was in A minor" and the guitarist said "Ah sure I never bother with them oul keys meself !"

Subject: RE: Help: 'Traditional musicians' & Tuning?
From: Gurney
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 07:06 AM

I've been told that at one time tuning was a little flatter than now, when it wasn't possible to measure it. When tuning from free-reed instruments, especially the concertina, it pays to be careful, as they flatten when played more loudly than usual, which is why Salvation Army concertinas were tuned slightly sharp. Mind you, I've also heard an enthusiastically played guitar that was so far out of tune that changing chord-shape made no real difference, it still sounded like a drum. He had some great songs, though. Chris.

Subject: RE: Help: 'Traditional musicians' & Tuning?
From: Ralphie
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 06:55 AM

Oh dear !!
What key was the huff in??
Some traditions revel in quarter tones (I'm thinking of some areas of Sweden) but, in general, it doesn't seem the best way to have a tuneful session.
Yes, everyone forgives (and helps) the novice, but this guy could obviously play...So, no excuse.
It would be like me playing in A flat in a room full of D/G melodeon players....!!
Ah Well, it takes all sorts!
Regards Ralphie

Subject: RE: Help: 'Traditional musicians' & Tuning?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 06:53 AM

Of course maybe he just didn't want the accompaniment. If he was trying to play along weith you without getting in tune with you, you'd have a right to object. If he wanted to play without you joining in, that's his right as well, and that shouldn't be seen as unfriendly.

It's quite true that traditional musicians often tune their instruments a bit sharp of concert piutch. Sometimes fixed pitch instruments aren't quite in concert pitcxh either - that's why electronic tuners provide an option for changing the pitch they are set at.

Subject: 'Traditional musicians' & Tuning?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 06:30 AM

hi everybody!

me & some chums were in our local session last week, playing some song s & tunes. another fiend came in & also sang a number or 2. his guitar seemed a little out of tune with the rest of us,so we couln't join in with him. another pal offered an electronic tuner, so he could be in concert ptch [440hz] like everyone else.

he refused saying, traditional musicians don't use concert pitch.

we felt this was somewhat unreasonable- my pal asked had he brought his hrmonicas with him & could he do one of his blues numbers with harp accompaniment. he had. we said how could he accompany himself with fixed pitch 'traditional' instruments like these if his guitar was'traditinally' tuned?

he went off in a huff.

your thoughts?