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BS: Does the USA own the moon?

GUEST,Jim 10 Sep 02 - 01:48 PM
MMario 10 Sep 02 - 01:59 PM
MMario 10 Sep 02 - 02:03 PM
X 10 Sep 02 - 02:10 PM
GUEST,Jim 10 Sep 02 - 02:14 PM
MMario 10 Sep 02 - 02:22 PM
Jeanie 10 Sep 02 - 02:30 PM
GUEST 10 Sep 02 - 02:31 PM
GUEST 10 Sep 02 - 02:49 PM
GUEST,Bill Kennedy 10 Sep 02 - 02:56 PM
Uncle_DaveO 10 Sep 02 - 03:05 PM
Nerd 10 Sep 02 - 03:08 PM
GUEST,Bill kennedy 10 Sep 02 - 03:09 PM
Kim C 10 Sep 02 - 03:33 PM
Memphis Mud 10 Sep 02 - 03:39 PM
MMario 10 Sep 02 - 03:45 PM
Peter T. 10 Sep 02 - 04:28 PM
wysiwyg 10 Sep 02 - 04:39 PM
SharonA 10 Sep 02 - 04:44 PM
Uncle_DaveO 10 Sep 02 - 04:57 PM
Amos 10 Sep 02 - 05:09 PM
Little Hawk 10 Sep 02 - 05:10 PM
DougR 10 Sep 02 - 05:21 PM
greg stephens 10 Sep 02 - 05:38 PM
Little Hawk 10 Sep 02 - 05:41 PM
Amos 10 Sep 02 - 05:43 PM
Kim C 10 Sep 02 - 05:58 PM
McGrath of Harlow 10 Sep 02 - 06:01 PM
NicoleC 10 Sep 02 - 06:43 PM
GUEST,apollo fan 10 Sep 02 - 10:08 PM
Bert 10 Sep 02 - 10:18 PM
mack/misophist 10 Sep 02 - 11:03 PM
Allan Dennehy 10 Sep 02 - 11:07 PM
Allan Dennehy 10 Sep 02 - 11:11 PM
GUEST,adavis@truman.edu 10 Sep 02 - 11:48 PM
wysiwyg 11 Sep 02 - 12:55 AM
Kaleea 11 Sep 02 - 02:42 AM
Mark Cohen 11 Sep 02 - 02:42 AM
GUEST,Boab 11 Sep 02 - 03:49 AM
GUEST,Bagpuss 11 Sep 02 - 05:48 AM
Mr Happy 11 Sep 02 - 06:54 AM
GUEST,Lyndi-Loo 11 Sep 02 - 07:06 AM
Harvey 11 Sep 02 - 07:32 AM
GUEST,Penny S. (elsewhere) 11 Sep 02 - 01:03 PM
Little Hawk 11 Sep 02 - 02:38 PM
Amos 11 Sep 02 - 03:56 PM
Little Hawk 12 Sep 02 - 04:08 PM
Wolfgang 16 Sep 02 - 03:12 PM

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Subject: Does the USA own the moon?
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 01:48 PM

Just been reading this piece on the BBC News site.

In brief it says: The first private Moon landing has finally been given the green light by the US Government.

The US State Department and the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration have granted it permission to send its TrailBlazer spacecraft into lunar orbit.

What's all this about? I'd always assumed that if I had the money, expertise and inclination, I could fly myself to the moon.

Do I really have to check with Dubya first???

Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the USA own the moon?
From: MMario
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 01:59 PM

"State Parties to the Treaty Shall bear international responsibility for national activities in outer space, including the Moon and other celestial bodies, whether such activities are carried on by governmental agencies or by non-governmental entities, and for assuring that national activities are carried out in conformity with the provisions set forth in the present Treaty. The activities of non-governmental enities in outer space, including the Moon and other celestial bodies, shall require authorization and continuing supervision by the appropriate State Party to the Treaty. "

Which basically means the government of whatever country a non-govermental space mission is based in is responsible for their actions. therefore it is only prudent that the government regulate non-governmental issues - since by treaty they are responsible regardless.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the USA own the moon?
From: MMario
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 02:03 PM

Article VI of the Outer Space Treaty of 1967


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the USA own the moon?
From: X
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 02:10 PM

Nope, the Moon People own the moon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the USA own the moon?
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 02:14 PM

Thanks MMario,

I had wondered since the launch is scheduled to take place in Kazakhstan. I guess the fact that it's a US company is what gives here.

Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the USA own the moon?
From: MMario
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 02:22 PM

looks like


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the USA own the moon?
From: Jeanie
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 02:30 PM

According to a recent documentary on British TV, nobody ever went to the moon at all. It was all filmed at a secret location in Arizona - where the wind blew the flag, which apparently would not have happened on the moon, and where there were several external light sources and various shadows cast, which according to this programme couldn't have happened like that on the moon. So, it's Arizona, then America certainly owns it !

- jeanie


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the USA own the moon?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 02:31 PM

No, but they resemble Uranus.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the USA own the moon?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 02:49 PM

hey, Weanus's resemble that remark!


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the USA own the moon?
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 02:56 PM

if ever a moneywrench gang action was called for it's in this regard. No, no one can own the moon. And we have no business going there. I remember, I think it was Bali, who filed a complaint with the UN when the US first landed on the moon, accusing us of desecrating a sacred spot, and I would agree. The pile of rubbish on the moon is enough to indict the human race for time eternal as a thoughtless, wasteful, stupid, ignorant, arrogant, inconsiderate, foolish, myopic, selfish, destructive and useless evolutionary mistake of a dead-end life form. I would lay down in front of the rockets if that would stop them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the USA own the moon?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 03:05 PM

GUEST (possibly our old friend troll-GUEST) said:

"No, but they resemble Uranus."

That's a well-worn fourth-grade joke, but based on a popular mispronunciation of "Uranus". It's "YOUR-uh-nus". Kind of takes the alleged humor out of it.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the USA own the moon?
From: Nerd
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 03:08 PM

Dave, you pulled the humor right out of Uranus...


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the USA own the moon?
From: GUEST,Bill kennedy
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 03:09 PM

well, I heard it in the second grade, but we were precocious in those days, not surprised that even joke standards have slipped a little. there should be national testing of these things, and if a child doesn't get the joke by the time he graduates, he should be sent back, or just given a job in the government. and i know nobody wants to be called a nus, but this political correctness thing has gone to far, I say if your offended just come back with 'no, YOU'RE a nus'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the USA own the moon?
From: Kim C
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 03:33 PM

If we never went to the moon, how do they know there's no wind and no shadows up there? They're just guessing based on what they THINK they know. A lot of scientific hypotheses have been blown to bits when someone finally went to actually investigate them.

I suppose those same people who dispute the moon landing belong to the Flat Earth Society as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the USA own the moon?
From: Memphis Mud
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 03:39 PM

In the 6th grade we learned that there are Klingons on Uranus.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the USA own the moon?
From: MMario
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 03:45 PM

I thought that was "rings around...."


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the USA own the moon?
From: Peter T.
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 04:28 PM

"Don't let's ask for the moon, we already have the stars." -- Bette Davis to Paul Heinreid, last line of "Now, Voyager".


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the USA own the moon?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 04:39 PM

No, I own it; my husband gave it to me.

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the USA own the moon?
From: SharonA
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 04:44 PM

"YOUR-uh-nus"... Urinous? As in "of or about urine"? Doesn't sound like much of an improvement over "your-anus" to me!

I heard on the news today that Buzz Aldrin supposedly punched some guy who's been insisting that Aldrin never walked on the moon and who got confrontational with the former astronaut one too many times. This guy is 37, and complaining because he got hit, but what did he expect? Even at 72, Aldrin is an exceptional physical specimen; he had to be, to be chosen for the Apollo program in the first place!!! Here's the story: http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/buzz020910_attack.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the USA own the moon?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 04:57 PM

Hooray for Aldrin!


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the USA own the moon?
From: Amos
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 05:09 PM

As for youra-nis, I'd hazard that yourine trouble!

Don''t worry about it. I can almost guarantee that if you manage to modify a vehicle so it will fly you safely to the Moon, and land on it, the chances are very high you will NOT get a ticket!!! :>) I'd go for it and let the chips fall where they may, so to speak.

I am sure Domino's would be willing to finance the venture if you agree to spread out a five-mile squared picture of one of their pizzas with a slogan on it -- thin-film mylar or some such.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the USA own the moon?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 05:10 PM

Hey, well, they planted a flag on it, didn't they?

Such flimsy precedents have previously been used to assert ownership of whole continents (such as North or South America)...so why not the moon?

Besides, the USA already owns the whole dang Universe and has the firepower to back that up, by gum! Everybody knows that except a few evil people like Saddam Hussein, and he is going to get HIS shortly! Ah kin guaran-damn-tee it! He will be way easier to find than Osama Bin-Whatzisname was.... He cain't run and he cain't hide.

If there was oil on the moon, you can just bet there'd be some serious dee-velopment goin' on thar right now. Mebbe after I-raq and I-ran and Ko-rea and them other evil places git sorted out we kin git a moon project goin', but fer now it jest ain't worth the money to git thar fer a few dang rocks. And no bad guys to shoot at neither. So what's the point? We jest had ta show the Ruskies that we was there first, and we showed 'em!

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the USA own the moon?
From: DougR
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 05:21 PM

I think the makers of that documentary are bit confused. Yes, the atronauts did train at Meteor Crater in Northern Arizona, but they landed there in a military truck not a space capsule.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the USA own the moon?
From: greg stephens
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 05:38 PM

Bill Kennedy: given the way they normally launch those space rockets, I dont think lying down in front of one would do you a lot of good, and it wouldnt stop it going up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the USA own the moon?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 05:41 PM

No, but it would be a way to create a new junk food...fast fried folkies.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the USA own the moon?
From: Amos
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 05:43 PM

You want meat with that? LOL, LH!

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the USA own the moon?
From: Kim C
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 05:58 PM

I'd like Space Fries with mine, please.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the USA own the moon?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 06:01 PM

I wouldn't worry too much about the USA owning the moon right now. So long as it's clearly understood it doesn't own the Earth, and doesn't want to.

Now this is drift, but it relates. Recently we've had all this stuff about asteroids, and how, sooner or later, the technology should exist to steer them away from the earth so we don't end up like the dinosaurs. It's occurred to me - that same technology could also be used to steer them so as to hit the earth. And looking at the world with post-September 11th eyes, it seems a fair bet that sooner or later someone is likely to try to do just that. A cheerful thought for the future.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the USA own the moon?
From: NicoleC
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 06:43 PM

Who owns the moon? Whoever gets there AND exploits it first. Otherwise, our money would have "in Odin we trust" or "in the Great Spirit we trust" or some such on it.

I won't be surprised to see "The United Moon Republic of AOL-Time-Warner" before I die. Talk about off-off-shore investments.

At least until the future permanent colonists declare independance. As real estate goes, the moon is only terribly useful as a base to mine the asteroids, and eventually as a tourist destination.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the USA own the moon?
From: GUEST,apollo fan
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 10:08 PM

I think I'm responding to something trollish, but why is the moon more sacred than any other spot? And c'mon, I've got more junk in my dad's barn than we left on that planetoid. The international convention on space makes it clear that we didn't claim the thing, and there was some deliberation behind the phrasing of "we came in peace for all mankind." Maybe impractical, but uselessness has often been seen as essential to true beauty. Both in its foolishness and its glory, the moon-landing was as quintessentially human a thing as was ever done. I think of this as I think of a cartoon printed when Voyager left the solar system. A kid is looking up at the stars with Uncle Sam and asks, "What was so special about Voyager?" and Sam answers: "It was ours; it wasn't built to kill anybody, and it worked."


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the USA own the moon?
From: Bert
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 10:18 PM

Of course, you are the only one thats got it right WYSImeluv.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the USA own the moon?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 11:03 PM

In truth, the moon is up for grabs; despite what any treaty says. Does any one remember how Antarctica was supposed to be a UN preserve and hands off to every one else. That ruling held until Australia wanted to take part of it. No one cared enough to dispute it. Now it's a fait accompli. I wouldn't be at all surprised if France enforced a claim on the moon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the USA own the moon?
From: Allan Dennehy
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 11:07 PM

I saw an hour long documentary about the "faked" moon landing, a lot more detailed than the BBC half hour one and I'm not saying that I believe it but I think it was the most facinating, mindbending hour I've ever spent in front of the box. Some of the arguements were really convincing. Watch it just for the laugh if you ever get the chance.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the USA own the moon?
From: Allan Dennehy
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 11:11 PM

By the way, I recieved the following e mail a few weeks ago. True story?:

Subject: GOOD LUCK, MR. GORSKY > > >ON 20th JULY 1969, AS COMMANDER OF THE APOLLO 11 LUNAR MODULE, NEIL >ARMSTRONG WAS THE FIRST PERSON TO SET FOOT ON THE MOON. HIS FIRST WORDS >AFTER STEPPING ON THE MOON, "THAT'S ONE SMALL STEP FOR A MAN, ONE GIANT >LEAP FOR MANKIND," WERE TELEVISED TO EARTH AND HEARD BY MILLIONS. > >BUT JUST BEFORE HE RE-ENTERED THE LANDER, HE MADE THE ENIGMATIC >REMARK: "GOOD LUCK, MR. GORSKY." > >MANY PEOPLE AT NASA THOUGHT IT WAS A CASUAL REMARK CONCERNING SOME >RIVAL SOVIET COSMONAUT. HOWEVER, UPON CHECKING, THERE WAS NO GORSKY IN >EITHER THE RUSSIAN OR AMERICAN SPACE PROGRAMS. > >OVER THE YEARS MANY PEOPLE QUESTIONED ARMSTRONG AS TO WHAT THE >"GOOD LUCK, MR. GORSKY" STATEMENT MEANT, BUT ARMSTRONG ALWAYS JUST >SMILED. > >ON 5th JULY 1995, IN TAMPA BAY, FLORIDA, WHILE ANSWERING QUESTIONS >FOLLOWING A SPEECH, A REPORTER BROUGHT UP THE 26-YEAR-OLD QUESTION TO >ARMSTRONG. > >THIS TIME HE FINALLY RESPONDED. MR. GORSKY HAD DIED, SO NEIL >ARMSTRONG FELT HE COULD ANSWER THE QUESTION. > >IN 1938 WHEN HE WAS A KID IN A SMALL MIDWEST TOWN, HE WAS PLAYING >BASEBALL WITH A FRIEND IN THE BACKYARD. HIS FRIEND HIT THE BALL, WHICH >LANDED IN HIS NEIGHBOUR'S YARD BY THE BEDROOM WINDOWS. HIS NEIGHBOURS WERE >MR. AND MRS. GORSKY. AS HE LEANED DOWN TO PICK UP THE BALL, YOUNG >ARMSTRONG HEARD MRS. GORSKY SHOUTING AT MR.GORSKY, "ORAL SEX! YOU WANT >ORAL SEX? YOU'LL GET ORAL >SEX WHEN THE KID NEXT DOOR WALKS ON THE MOON!"


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the USA own the moon?
From: GUEST,adavis@truman.edu
Date: 10 Sep 02 - 11:48 PM

Hey, I can get this thread back to folk music! The Gambian jali (griot) Al-Haji Papa Bunka Susso has been my guest a few times. Once, when he felt particularly well-received, he sang to his audience of American students (c. 1999) a song he'd composed in the traditional Mandikan way at the time of the moon landing. You have never heard the like, the completely non-ironic praise by a postcolonial gent whose knowledge of history is so vast he can take a genealogy back 1000 years. The song praised America and Americans for having wrought a marvel. Like a good court poet, he was diplomatically silent about little indiscretions like Vietnam, the race situation, etc. But his praise seemed like a thing worth having. The students found it merely puzzling, but they were polite.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the USA own the moon?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Sep 02 - 12:55 AM

And as usual, you're the only one that spotted it accurately, bert m'dear.

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the USA own the moon?
From: Kaleea
Date: 11 Sep 02 - 02:42 AM

aoltimewarner? try pepsicopizzahuttuckyfriedyucky, cocacola, or bill gates! DUH!


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the USA own the moon?
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 11 Sep 02 - 02:42 AM

No, Alan, "Mr. Gorsky" is not a true story. It started out as a joke; Armstrong himself said he heard it told by Buddy Hackett. Details here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the USA own the moon?
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 11 Sep 02 - 03:49 AM

All this bejabers about the rings round uranus and associated stuff brings back the memory of a wee song my auld faither used to sing to me---"The rich man wears a ring of gold, the poor man a ring of brass--, but the only ring the poor monkey has is the red ring round his nose!" Ach well---time we were back to music------


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the USA own the moon?
From: GUEST,Bagpuss
Date: 11 Sep 02 - 05:48 AM

Just as long as they don't disturb the Clangers or the Soup Dragon....

Patrick Moore always called that particular planet OO-ranus.

And finally, there is a great "song" (actually spoken word over instrumental) by a band called Looper which is sort of about the idea that the moon landings are faked. It's called Dave the Moon Man. I'll see if I can find the lyric.

Bagpuss


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the USA own the moon?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 11 Sep 02 - 06:54 AM

uranus? in birmingham [uk]they'd say 'your 'ighness!'


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the USA own the moon?
From: GUEST,Lyndi-Loo
Date: 11 Sep 02 - 07:06 AM

Did you hear the one about the Russians landing on the moon? they started to paint it red. NASA went apeshit and phoned the President to tell him. he said not to worry and went back to bed. When NASA phoned him several hours later they tod him that the whole of the moon was completely red. He tod them just to take a bucket of white paint up there and paint the words "Coca-Cola" on it


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the USA own the moon?
From: Harvey
Date: 11 Sep 02 - 07:32 AM

Any oldies like me remember seeing a movie called Capricorn One?


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the USA own the moon?
From: GUEST,Penny S. (elsewhere)
Date: 11 Sep 02 - 01:03 PM

The guys who reckon that the Moon hasn't been visited do not have convincing arguments for everything. Rocks were brought back, for instance. These do not match Earth rocks. They do, however, match rocks brought back by a Russian unmanned craft. NASA and the Soviet Union would not have been collaborating at that time. It would have been in the Russian interest to disprove any false claims by the USA, and they could have done so. For instance, by monitoring of the radio transmissions made during the flights.

NASA has never been a monolithic organisation - various labs and departments compete for funding, and a number of external companies provide the hardware. The scientists tend to include a lot of idealist people with a devotion to the extension of knowledge, and the truth. These people move around between departments and various academic establishments. They work with people basing their own studies on the results of the Moon program. This huge number of people live in a country not run by the equivalent of the KGB and fear, but with liberty at its core, and a grounding in rebellion. They lived through the Sixties. This would be a leaky setup. No way could any covert operation cover itself up successfully and produce the results it did.

Think of the things which have happened and not been kept quiet - injecting people with plutonium, for instance. Failing to treat black sufferers from VD. Testing nerve gas on uninformed soldiers (that was here in the UK, just to show that I'm not biased). Much smaller things, and much more serious in their ethical implications.

What this issue does show is how easy it is to convince people that something is different from the generally accepted perception. Take one person. Give him a job title and the sense of importance and being in on something that goes with it. Let him "discover" evidence of a conspiracy, and let him leak it..... Not that I'm saying that is what happened. At least it has the virtue of making witnesses not liars, but dupes.

In the right environment, others will join in and find more. Like the photographs with shadows that go in different directions, which don't do any such thing when you look closely. Like the moving flag, which has just been moved by a clearly visible astronaut, in an environment where there is no force to counter its energy.

Who benefits from this sort of hypothesis? Who gains from teaching people that the achievements of science and governments of the past never happened? I don't know, apart from the makers of TV programs, and the publishers of magazines. But I find it very hard to cope when dealing with apparently intelligent acquaintances who believe the stuff because it was on TV, and cannot deal with reasoned argument.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the USA own the moon?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Sep 02 - 02:38 PM

Okay, Penny, lemme get this straight (as they say in thousands of badly written Hollywood scripts)...

Are you sayin' that they show stuff on TV that is NOT true??????

Well? ARE YOU????

I watch Jerry Springer regularly, and I am concerned about this outrageous allegation of yours!

:-)

Actually, what most people do is they simply form an allegiance to the first (or the latest) bunch of information put in front of them, specially if it is put in front of them in an interesting and compelling way. Then they set about vigorously defending it, as it has now become part of their identity. They ignore or ridicule or explain away material that appears to contradict it. They seek out material that supports it...and there is always plenty more of that available. Just do a search on the Net.

They become more convinced they are right with each attack that is made on their chosen position by others, and with each defense that they advance in retaliation. It becomes a deeper and more vital element in their identity, and the survival of their identity is as precious to them as the preservation of their life, since their identity IS their conscious life.

Observe this happening in the political arena, as innocent young minds are twisted into becoming Democrats, Republicans, Communists, or any other such party affiliation. Observe it in the religious arena. Ouch.

I know a very intelligent man (and a well-educated one) who was convinced by seeing that TV special that the moon landings were faked. You would not expect him to be fooled easily by this or anything else, but astronomy is not his chosen field. I was able to shake his certainty by drawing his attention to the fact that another person whom he looks up to greatly and considers a reliable authority thought the show was entirely incorrect and that the landings were real.

So it goes. People generally believe the first good story they hear, as long as it is reasonably well told, and once they believe it they are likely to go on believing it. Hitler had a majority of Germans convinced of his ludicrous notions of nation-building, and the Germans are a highly intelligent and capable group of people. George Bush seems to have a majority of Americans convinced that Iraq is a serious danger to the USA (when it's actually exactly the reverse of that...).

If most people don't believe a given story, this only puts the believers in a stronger moral position (so they think), because it makes them feel special...and way smarter than the majority of people. It's a very seductive and gratifying feeling. This is another reason why odd conspiracy theories appeal to people. Everyone loves to be one of the few smart people who are in the know...unlike the majority of "fools" out there who are not. :-)

I can recall a few thousand times when I have enjoyed that particular feeling...the only question is, when was I actually in the know and when was I dead wrong?

Goot qvestion, herr doktor! Ach, mein gott I am zo fed up viss zeez stupid fools und zer convenshunall nonsense! Efferybody should chust admit zat I am right und zey are WRONG and zen vee could set zis vorld shtraigt finally!!!

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the USA own the moon?
From: Amos
Date: 11 Sep 02 - 03:56 PM

Ach, Leedle 'Awk!! Vot's all diss? You muscht come uppundt schee me, for der achudtment off der meddzs, ja?

Scheriously, volks, Leedle 'Awk hasch opviously learnt a great deal of goot shtuff, but you can schee he is schtill oferly involfd mit der "right" undt "wrong" trap and scho needs to continue hiss schessions.

Meanvile, Herr 'Awk, you can chust practice shaying "I know" undt "I don't know" alternately midt complete conviction undtil it cleersch upp, ja??

Schee you REAL schoon!! Vy??? Becausch ve LIKEN you!!

Liebenscheiss


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the USA own the moon?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Sep 02 - 04:08 PM

Ah...I feel MUCH better now. Herr Liebenscheiss can always relieve my angst with a few well-chosen words. :-)

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the USA own the moon?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 16 Sep 02 - 03:12 PM

The thread has run its course, so perhaps I can add a bit on McGrath's thread creep above:

Recently we've had all this stuff about asteroids, and how, sooner or later, the technology should exist to steer them away from the earth so we don't end up like the dinosaurs. It's occurred to me - that same technology could also be used to steer them so as to hit the earth. And looking at the world with post-September 11th eyes, it seems a fair bet that sooner or later someone is likely to try to do just that.

That's an interesting idea. I never had thought about that before. I did a bit reading and thinking over the weekend to analyse whether it could be done. The bottom line is it can't, at least not for a very long time and here's why:

(1) I don't doubt for a moment that there are (and will be) people who would if they could.

(2) The present ideas to influence the course of an asteroid are to use a (comparably) tiny bit of force over a very long time (like a sun sail using the sun wind as source of energy). If for instance we know that in 2074 the earth will be hit (ceteris paribus) even a tiny force applied for some decades will throw the asteroid off its course far enough.

(3) The earth is a very small target (in space). Even if the technology exists to deflect an asteroid off target, it cannot be used to deflect it with sufficient reliability on target. You don't need any precision (and don't care for) to throw a projectile off target. Just 'off' is good enough for you. To deflect the course of a body on target you need several factors of ten more in precision. At the very least you have to launch twice (first, to install a source of deflective power, second to turn it off) or to install a source of power than has remote control to turn it on and off and to adjust its direction of action.

Think of a billiard ball movement. You don't need any precision to deflect the rolling ball from its target (whatever you do will be good enough unless you are too slow), but you'd be pressed hard to deflect it onto a target.

(4) The time scale leaves a very long time of warning. There is no technology now to drastically alter the course of such a body and therefore the impact won't come as a surprise (except if you postulate that terrorists know for a very long time in advance of an asteroid unknown to all others until too late which doesn't seem probable at all)

(5) I don't see that any launch and its target would remain undetected.

There are many things about which we could worry (like e.g. an undetected asteroid or smaller body hitting the earth for natural reasons), but terrorists steering an asteroid into the earth should for a very long time only be of interest to Hollywood.

Wolfgang


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