BS: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions

Subject: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: NicoleC
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 01:14 AM

... with a little politics thrown in. It was supposed to be about both politics and religion, but it got too long. Maybe part II will be more about current affairs and less about traditional beliefs.

1.) Which of the following religions believe that the source of all sin is women?
A. Judaism    B. Christianity    C. Islam

2) Which of the following religions believe that Jesus was a Jewish prophet of God?
A. Judaism    B. Christianity    C. Islam

3) Which is the following religions believe that Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary?
A. Judaism    B. Christianity    C. Islam

4) Which of the following religions limits the number of wives a man may take? 
A. Judaism    B. Christianity    C. Islam

5) True or False: Muslims believe the words of the New Testament.

6) The ____________ requires that women cover their ____________
1. Old Testament: ________________ 
2. New Testament: ________________
3. Quran: ________________  

7) Identify the religion's traditional punishment for rape:
50 sheckles, and the man is required to marry the woman and never divorce her: _____________
80 lashes, and they are no longer allowed to bear legal witness: ___________

8) Which religion traditionally believes that a menstruating female is fatal to men by her very presence?

9) Which Muslim country has elected 2 female Presidents or Prime Ministers?

10) Name 3 other predominantly Muslim countries that have elected female Presidents or Prime Ministers?

11) Which is the only European country to match that statistic?

12) What is the predominant Islamic sect?
A. Shiite    B. Sunni    C. Sufi     D. Wahhabi

13) Specify the Islamic sect of:
A. Taliban
B. Osama bin Laden 
C. Saudi Arabia (ruling class)
D. Iran
E. Pakistan

14) Match the core belief to the Islamic sect:
A. Shiite    B. Sunni    C. Ahmadi

1. The true religious (and sometimes political leader) at any given time, the Imam, Pope, is divinely appointed and he is the arbiter of religious doctrine.
2. The words of Mohammed and his writings in the Koran are the only source of the true religious beliefs, but there may be other prophets to come.
3. Mohammed was a true prophet, but he has not been the LAST prophet and messenger of God.

15) Identify the Christian sect by the belief:
A. Every man and woman has direct access to God, and no priestly class is necessary because following you personal spirituality is the path of salvation.
B. No mortal holy leader can know everything, so religious belief can be conservatively modified by a general consensus of elder members.
C. They claim salvation through secret knowledge
D. Speaking in tongues

16) What country in the Middle East blew up an American diplomatic facility in Egypt and attacked a U.S. ship in international waters, killing 33 and wounding 177 American sailors?
A. Israel    B. Iraq    C. Iran    D. Kuwait

17) What of the following countries in the Middle East have a legal system which discriminates on the basis of religion?
A. Israel    B. Iraq    C. Syria    D. Lebanon.

18) In 25 words or less, what is the basic difference between the names Yahweh, Jehovah, and Allah?

19) TRIVIA: What is the other number associated with the sign of the beast in Revelation 13:18?

20) TRIVIA: Which holy book contains an "Equal Rights Amendment?"

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: JedMarum
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 01:19 AM

Christianity believes that the source of sin is satan NOT women. Woman is represented as the seducer to sin.

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: Blackcatter
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 01:25 AM

See - the point of quizes, once you've gotten out of school, is that their FUN...

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: Haruo
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 01:31 AM

A lot of these questions seem to me best answered "All of the above and none of the above"

Haruo
Baptist Christian, albeit oddly leftish

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 05:45 AM

Nothing good comes of mixing religion and politics.:-)

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: greg stephens
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 06:36 AM

Is this a quiz? seems like something else to me.

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: Naemanson
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 08:15 AM

Well, I can't answer any of these questions but then I can't see any real difference between the various religions. To me they are just different groups of people who don't pay attention to the tenets of their own religions.

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: Orac
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 09:21 AM

What do we win if we can answer all this stuff? Beats me why anyone believes any of it. It seems to me that the same books are read by different groups and yet they all seem to manage to get a different "truth" out of it. It was a wise American who once said that "Faith is beliving what you know ain't so" .. I'll drink to that.

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: John Hardly
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 09:51 AM

1. I doubt that any of the three actually does.
2. C
3. B&C
4. A case can be made that both A and B do
5. True and false.....they believe them but not as an orthodox (the theological term, not the "denomination") Christian would. Not authoritatively.
6. New,head
7. Uncertain, but I think the first option may be Levitical. Neither is "christian"
8. Niether jewish nor Christian. In levitical law it is merely "unclean" a meaning that is quite debatable
9. Through 14. I could only hazard guesses
15. A – most any fundamental protestant denomination, B – I'm not sure I understand the question C – Gnosticism D – Pentecostals, "charismatics", and others in the "holiness" tradition of protestantism

.......that's about the best I can do without looking stuff up.

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: Peter T.
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 09:57 AM

religions don't believe anything; people believe.
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: Bagpuss
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 10:00 AM

When are you going to post your answers? There are probably a lot of people who want to argue with you, but it's so hard to argue with a question!

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: Amos
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 10:28 AM

Gee, Nicole -- you've hit on a Great Pit of Ignorance!! This is one of those areas I have always shirked, finding little to recommend close study; now, I'm embarassed by not having a good inventory of quirky human beliefs. I liked Kendall's quiz better!!

A

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: Amergin
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 10:34 AM

me too, Amos....let us all don our white sheets and go over to Nicole's place for a party...uh meeting...

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: NicoleC
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 11:19 AM

Pretty good, John.

1. Actually both Judaism and Christianity do, although most modern practictioners would be surprised at the literal applications the believe used to take.

"No wickedness comes anywhere near the wickedness of a woman.....Sin began with a woman and thanks to her we all must die" (Ecclesiasticus 25:19,24). (Catholic Bible)
"A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I don't permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner" (I Timothy 2:11-14).
"Do you not know that you are each an Eve? The sentence of God on this sex of yours lives in this age: the guilt must of necessity live too. You are the Devil's gateway: You are the unsealer of the forbidden tree: You are the first deserter of the divine law: You are she who persuaded him whom the devil was not valiant enough to attack. You destroyed so easily God's image, man. On account of your desert even the Son of God had to die." (St. Tertullian)
So by deceit he brought them to their fall: when they tasted the tree their shame became manifest to them and they began to sew together the leaves of the Garden over their bodies. And their Lord called unto them: 'Did I not forbid you that tree and tell you that Satan was your avowed enemy?' They said: 'Our Lord we have wronged our own souls and if You forgive us not and bestow not upon us Your Mercy, we shall certainly be lost' " (Quran 7:19:23).
"For Muslim men and women, for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in charity, for men and women who fast, for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allah's praise-- For them all has Allah prepared forgiveness and great reward" (33:35). (Quran)

In the Quran, both Adam and Eve are equally sinners, and both equally receive redemption from God. In the Old Testament, Adam blames it on Eve God believes Adam, and Eve is punished more harshly than Adam, and Eve is the source of original sin.

Judaism is a little more obscure, but it's there. It's related to the concept of original sin, but not the same. (Sorry, I couldn't find a good quote, but it's in Shabbat 146a.) It says that the snake seduced Eve and shot into her this substance, "zohama" ("stain"), which contaminated future descendants and contaminated her with strong lust; this stain was only removed from the Israelites by virtue of the experience at Sinai.

2. C
Sort of a trick question. Yes, Islam believes that Jesus was a Jewish prophet of God, but do does Christianity. But Christianity also believes that he is divine.

3. B&C
Correct

4. A case can be made that both A and B do
Only Islam specifies a limit on the number of wives. The monogamy generally accepted in western tradition is a Greco-Roman origin.
"If you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, marry women of your choice, two or three or four; but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with them, then only one" (4:3).  Multiple marriages are allowed in the Quran when polygamy can improve the life of orphans, widows and other disadvantaged women, and only with the consent of the woman.  The Old Testament requires that a childless widow marry her husband's brother, even if he is already married.  (Genesis 38:8-10.)  Modern Jews do not subscribe to this belief.

5. True and false.....they believe them but not as an orthodox (the theological term, not the "denomination") Christian would. Not authoritatively.
Correct. Both the Old and New Testaments are considered holy writings, and considered true except where they conflict with the teaches of Mohammed. Muslims believe the words of the New Testament have been changed and corrupted. So basically, Mohammed is the last prophet, so he has the latest and greatest word from God -- similiar to Christians, who consider the Old testament holy, but the words of Jesus supersede anything written by earlier prophets.

6. New,head And hair. Anyone want to take a guess at the others.

8. Niether jewish nor Christian. In levitical law it is merely "unclean" a meaning that is quite debatable
Judaism. "Our Rabbis taught:....if a menstruant woman passes between two (men), if it is at the beginning of her menses she will slay one of them, and if it is at the end of her menses she will cause strife between them" (bPes. 111a.) (Talmud)

15. A – most any fundamental protestant denomination, B – I'm not sure I understand the question C – Gnosticism D – Pentecostals, "charismatics", and others in the "holiness" tradition of protestantism
I meant Quakers for A, but it is a little too vague. C and D are both correct. Technically, D is only Pentecostals -- anyone who believes speaking in tongues is a requirement for salvation is a sub-sect of Pentecostalism.

Anyone want to guess at B? You might be surprised.

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: Amos
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 01:07 PM

B sounds like Mormonism to me. But, I dunno much about this stuff! To tell you the truth acheiving even the expertise Nicole has demonstrated, which is impressive, would feel like keeping track of all the characters in Pokemon, Disney World, Seuss, Ninja Turkles, the Borrowers, the whole Star Trek and Star Wars lexicon, and My Little Pony all at once -- a great inventory mapped to dubious substance.

But that's just me. I have my own ghosts, I just don't make institutions out of them or serial cartoons, either! LOL!

A

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 01:10 PM

New question:

Which religion uses 'common sense' as it's basic premise, insists that it's participants treat others as equals, never solicits money, does not make men and women adversaries, does not rely on the supernatural to threaten people, and amends it's beliefs as new information comes to light?

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: MMario
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 01:17 PM

15A - You do realize that many Quakers do not consider themselves to be Christian?

I'd argue a lot of the other answers - but It wouldn't do anyone any good - so why bother.

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: InOBU
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 01:21 PM

New answer... a quote from a childhood friend and Friend in the New York 15th st. Quaker meeting, to a class of folks seeking to understand Quakerism... "Well... Gee... I'd love to call my self a Universalist, but frankly... I don't believe ANYthing!"
Bless'im...
Yours in the light or whatever
Larry

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: Kim C
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 01:33 PM

Some of the Native Americans believed a menstruating woman was very strong medicine; in some of the tribes, women had to leave the main camp and go to a special womens' camp during their period. (now keep in mind, this is something I read MANY years ago so I may not have it exactly right)

Is Islam considered a Western religion?

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: toadfrog
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 01:35 PM

These are like the "questions" one is asked to respond to by political organizations which are soliciting money. They are just awfully tendentious. And have nothing in particular to do with music.

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: NicoleC
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 01:50 PM

Don't get too impressed. While writing the quiz, I double-checked "my" answers and went looking for backing quotes, etc.... and had to change a few of the "answers."

Quakers seem to believe whatever they want to believe. Some folks wouldn't call Catholics Christians either. I realize that traditional beliefs and modern beliefs vary, as do the opinions of individual practitioners, which is why I tried to keep everything pretty general and fairly trivial. (I don't expect anyone to get #19!)

Adding to the confusion, culture and politics sometimes imbues a religious code of beliefs, without having any basis in the core religion itself. When it comes right down to it, most of the world's holy books all pretty much say the same thing. Maybe that's why we consider them holy -- they aspire to a code of behavior that we rarely achieve.

Is no one going to take a whack at the Islam stuff?

Bagpuss, if someone wants to argue over an answer, I would hope that they could volunteer an answer of their own first :)

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: Amos
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 02:19 PM

Which religion uses 'common sense' as it's basic premise, insists that it's participants treat others as equals, never solicits money, does not make men and women adversaries, does not rely on the supernatural to threaten people, and amends it's beliefs as new information comes to light?

Rick, aside from the Temple of the Golden Globes, I haven't seen one yet!! What's the answer?? I may have a few recruits for them!! :>)

A

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: Jeanie
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 02:34 PM

Amos and Rick: This sounds to me like Unitarians - I'm reading about them at the moment and it's very interesting.

- jeanie

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: John Hardly
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 02:44 PM

"Which religion uses 'common sense' as it's basic premise, insists that it's participants treat others as equals, never solicits money, does not make men and women adversaries, does not rely on the supernatural to threaten people, and amends it's beliefs as new information comes to light?"

We call that'n "Hardlyanity" (kinda rhymes with "insanity"). And though I'd never insist on donations of money, I would accept a virgin or two as payment for your health, wealth, and happiness.

ok. maybe rationalism?

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: John Hardly
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 02:58 PM

"Only Islam specifies a limit on the number of wives"

Au contrare (or however you frenchify that'n). Both Titus and Timothy require that any church leadership position be filled by husbands of only one wife. Most churchs I have participated in say that this, at least in principle, indicates a superior spirituality to monogamy -- and it's been that way in protestant theology for at least 300 years.

On the one hand you want us to accept answers that have come about by tradition (flavored by culture and context of time) and others you want us to accept as the correct answer only the interpretation of isolated (out of context?) "scriptures" that you have chosen to highlight for the sake of this quiz.

If, on the other hand, you took the current state of those religions as practiced, your answers would be quite different (f'rinstance, for the past many hundred years Christianity has been the chief proponent of monogamy, while, if we were to believe your assertion, by the answers you gave, we would believe that moslems are the monogamous ones now)

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: Mr Happy
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 03:01 PM

all 3 philosophies originated in the middle east & therefore aren't 'western religions'. are there any?

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: Amos
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 03:15 PM

Well, there are the tenets of "rugged frontiersmen", but they probably don't qualify as a religion!

A

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 03:23 PM

15B could be Roman Catholic. "Papal Infallibility" only applies when exercised in the context of the collegate.

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 03:31 PM

how about we do a quiz which cultures practice stoning of women for adultery, or female genital mutilation.

the only religious rule that one should live by, is the Golden Rule, 'treating others as we would have them treat us' thats all you need. (no moralizing, purely a utilitarian philosophy.)

looking back at history, religion is one of the main causes of war, (god is on the side of the biggest cannon, as they say)

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: InOBU
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 03:42 PM

There was another Quaker philosopher, the leate Peter Fingesten, who once said, (contrary to the advice on the subject...) I drink therefore I think. Cheers, Larry

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: InOBU
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 03:42 PM

that should say the late... Peter always reminded me of a Hungarian version of Vitor Borge...

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: InOBU
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 03:43 PM

that should read Victor Borge, also the late... Don't know how to spell his last name...

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: JedMarum
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 03:55 PM

I totally disagree with the premise of your first arguement. You went a long way to find primarily apocraphal Christian writings and offensive quotes - but do not produce a meaningful that Christians believe that women are the source of sin. In fact that is NOT what Christians believe. Even your first quote, from OLD TESTAMENT writings, commonly rejected for inclsuion of most religious canon - only blames woman as the temptress of sin NOT the creator of sin. NOT the source of sin. In fact, the creation myth used by many Judeo-Christian religious thinkers clearly assigns the source of sin to satan. YES, woman has a special role of the sin, YES man has his own special role in the sin ... the point was that humankind has weakness for sin and that each sex has its own special weakness.

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 03:56 PM

Western religions? Yes, there are a number of them. Zuñi? Diné? others? The Diné had no word for religion as such but it is often used to cover their concepts of the universe and its workings. The same is true for other distinctive Americans' concepts. At Taos, I was pleased to hear that Catholicism, forced on them by the invaders, was down to 20%; 80% now adhering to their groups original concepts. Diné beliefs are alive and well in the Navajo Nation.

Unfortunately, the religion of the Casino Money Tree is infecting many.

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: Amos
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 04:15 PM

Thanks, Guestguest, for broadening the discussion appropriately. Hit me right in the blind spot -- I had forgotten all about Dine.

A

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: John Hardly
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 04:16 PM

yeah, what Jed said.

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: NicoleC
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 05:11 PM

John,

I stand corrected. Actually, went I went to lunch today (thinking about your earlier answer) I realized that I had blundered by equating the New Testament for the most part with the sum of Christian law. My fault for trying to generalize too much. Was coming back online to retract the statement, but you beat me to it :)

However, the vast majority of Muslims are monogamous. Those that are polygamous justify it with the Quran, but it isn't common anymore, maybe because there just aren't that many extra women to go around.

Jed: Although Christianity emphasizes the New Testament over the Old Testament, why would you say that it is not included in Christian religious canon? (I really want to know.) It appears in most Bibles. I did try to avoid associating OT quotes with Christians, though, since I didn't want to hunt throught the NT for conflicts.

If we take ONLY the life and actions of Jesus as an definition of Christianity, then you're right -- woman is not considered the source of sin. Jesus consorted with hookers and lepers and paupers and homosexuals and all kinds of fringe groups. All in all, a pretty nice, tolerant guy.

For NT writings, you can refer to the above quotes from 1 Timothy and Ecclesiastes. Trust me, I did not have to look hard.

Augustine really invented the doctrine of Original Sin, and it's after the NT period that the whole anti-woman rhetoric starts, even though I don't see any real foundation in the gospels. Although most modern theologians wouldn't interpret the scriptures exactly the same way, the habit and culture persists. Women are more weak and sinful than men. Women must cover their heads when they pray. Women may not be ordained, and so forth.

As with anything religious, just MHO.

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: Kim C
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 05:23 PM

I've never covered my head to pray and it's always seemed to work out pretty well...

But now, that was Paul who said all that. Paul, who was a Man, just a Man. I don't recall that Jesus hisself ever said any of those things. However, I may be recalling wrong.

Anyway, Woman was made to be attractive to Man. Man puts restrictions on Woman so he won't be unnecessarily attracted to her, and so she will not be attractive to Other Men. Man also protects Woman not because she is weaker, but because she is the Nurturer, the Giver of Life. Has more to do with Human Nature than Religion, at least that's what I think.

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: JedMarum
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 05:43 PM

Ecclesiasticus is considered Apocrypha by Jews and by some Christians. It IS part of the Catholic bible, as you suggest - but is not typical of mainstream Christian thinking.

I don't deny that Christians have focused comments on the sinfulness of women - I do deny that they have not made a similar focus of the sinfulness of men. It is easy to sort through these ancient texts to find offensive ideas expressed - these myths have been collected and modified for so many many years and been sifted through so many cultures.

The basic tenets of Christianity are still valid and reasonable; faith in God, love for your fellow man (HUman).

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 06:08 PM

The answer to Rick's mini-quiz must be unitarians.

Just to be clear, Ecclesiasticus, which Nicole cited way up the thread, is one of the books that make up what many protestants term the Apocrypha. These apocryphal books, all written in Greek, were largely concerning the period between those covered by the two testaments, and were not deemed part of the canon by the Early Church.

Augustine wanted them counted in, and eventually one of the church councils that periodically sat (Trent, 1546) went along with this. By then of course the church was split, and the writ of these councils ran only in the catholic church. The catholic church calls the apocryphal books deuterocanonical.

Ecclesiasticus is not to be confused with Ecclesiastes, mentioned in Nicole's last post. This is an old testament book, not new, as Nicole (maybe accidentally) implied.

Thanks for an interesting thread Nicole. I would just caution that in many ways (not least attitude to women) is is not realistic to bundle all of the Christian strands together, as you seem to be doing. On some of your questions, different strands would return different answers. Also I'm not sure that it's right to count islam in the western religions, and some western religions have been overlooked as others have said. (Including that whole area of "western guru" religion around the theosophists and their successors.)

Apropos of nothing in particular, I've always wondered about Jesus. Do believers hold that he pre-existed his birth on earth - ie was he always part of the triumvirate up there, or was he created specifically to be slaughtered? If the latter, it doesn't seem much of a sacrifice. It would have been better if his father had sacrificed something he'd always cherished.

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: NicoleC
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 06:10 PM

Interesting thoughts, Jed. Not being a practicer of any particular religion, I view them all with the same sort of scholarly curiosity.

Of course, I admit the agenda implied by a few above... stated it in fact in that interminable Iraq war thread. Since this quiz started in the other thread in response to a lot of talk being thrown around about religion and governments in the Middle East, I find it interesting that none of the regular political-BS-thread posters around here has answered even one of the Islam questions. (Most of which are FAR easier than the Christianity questions.) Heck, John answered the toughest one.

It is valid to question the accuracy of defining a religious belief in a few quotes, and what effect religion has upon government and culture. I TOTALLY agree :)

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: John Hardly
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 06:17 PM

"Augustine really invented the doctrine of Original Sin"

see now.....this is just the kinda stuff that starts pissin' religious people off :^)

There is a sorta transcendence to the doctrines of most religious beliefs -- that is, though someone may be known for pointing a doctrine out, those who believe the doctrine would not say that that fellow "invented" the doctrine. They would believe that the doctrine is in and of itself true, and the fellow who pointed it out was perhaps first, or just the best at pointing it out -- putting it into words -- systematizing it.

If I believe in original sin it is not because Augustine "invented it". It is because I can see it as a reasonable interpretation of the scriptures.

There is a difference between believing that something is true, and being able to support that truth by emperical means -- but those with real religious beliefs do actually believe that something is true. That doesn't mean that two opposing views can't happily co-exist, but it is one of the flaws in hoping we (religious and non-religious) can get along by a pluralism model, rather than by a toleration model.

Pluralism presupposes that all religious viewpoints (or anything else that cannot be proven empirically, for that matter) are equally invalid......presupposing in a rather condescending manner that "unprovable" is the same as "untrue".

Tolerance, on the other hand, merely demands that we allow for our differences in the name of a better society. It doesn't discount the possibility for truth.

Oh yeah, and when Jed says "I do deny that they have not made a similar focus of the sinfulness of men.", I agree with 'im on that'n too.

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: NicoleC
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 06:24 PM

That would be lousy spelling, Fionn. I ended up somewhere in between both spellings...

The reason I only included the big 3 western religions, is because I don't know much about the rest of them. The 4th and 5th religions of the west would not go over well in a religious quiz, namely Science and Money.

DMcG: Sorry, I missed your answer. I was referring to the Roman/Orthodox split on the Eastern Orthodox side.

And I THINK that catches me up. Which leaves 6, 7, 9-14 and 16-20.

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: John Hardly
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 06:43 PM

"I've always wondered about Jesus. Do believers hold that he pre-existed his birth on earth - ie was he always part of the triumvirate up there, or was he created specifically to be slaughtered? If the latter, it doesn't seem much of a sacrifice. It would have been better if his father had sacrificed something he'd always cherished"

I can only tell you what I was taught. Fundamentalist Christians, most "Evangelical" Christians (that's Christians who believe in pretty much the same orthodoxy as "fundamentalists" but who, because the term fundamentalist has become so negatively distorted, choose to go by another name), and, in doctrine though not in practice or as individual "believers", most main-line protestant denominations..........wow...how's that for a qualifier?!

...anyway, this is how it was taught to me. Jesus did pre-exist (before the incarnation). The Christian points to several things in both old and New Testament to conclude this but it would be unwieldy here to proof-text. If you really want specifics PM me (I'm not around here much but I'll try to check back from time to time). In an "inter-diety" (just made that'n up!) pact, and for reasons unknown to man, the Godhead (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) set about the plan that would contain creation and redemption.

Jesus "emptied himself" -- making himself as a man. So....when Jesus was here incarnate, he was a man. He suffered the same illnesses and struggles as are common to man. The deal was though -- he remained perfect. He was, to the fundamental belief of a Christian, more important as a sacrifice than for a moral example.

Here you will find a HUGE, three-way (if not more-way) disagreement among many who go by the name "Christian".

1. many (especially among more "liberal" denominations) believe that the example was the real deal -- there was no need for a sacrifice because man, at his core, is good. Not in need of a sacrifice.

2. those who think the sacrifice is the thing and the example the proof of his worthiness -- but the LIFE was also the real deal. In other words, these (like myself) marvel at the humaness of Jesus -- that he did what he did as a man who was not at all times entirely aware of how his incarnation was relly meant to play itself out.

3. Finally there are those who think that the belief that Jesus was both man and God is diminished if he didn't maintain the all-knowing, all-powerfulness of his godness. These are the ones who, for example, chafe at the concept behind "The Last Temptation" because the Jesus of that movie wasn't entirely aware of the end in the beginning.

In short, 'tis a mystery.

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: John Hardly
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 06:47 PM

Oh yeah, and Fionn, I think Rick's "religion" is not religion at all, rather science or rationalism. (I've always found Rick to be very respectful of well-behaved religion but I think I've read Rick say before that he is non-religious)

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 06:55 PM

Ha, ha! Not far off the mark, John. If I could FIND a religion that met my criterion, I might not neccessarily JOIN it...but I'd sure want to be friends with the folks who DID belong to it.

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: artbrooks
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 07:07 PM

Ecclesiasticus 25:19,24? That book doesn't show up in my Jewish "Bible". And that statement doesn't show up in Ecclesiastes. Are the rest of the quotations equally valid?

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: NicoleC
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 07:19 PM

Thanks for the synopsis on the Jesus/man/God thing, John. Now, where did I get the idea that Jesus existed prior to his human incarnation, agreed to the deal, and then once he was born on earth he was unaware of his heavenly nature until divine revelation later in life?

I guess that's like #2... sort of.

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: John Hardly
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 07:23 PM

yeah Rick, well I've been doing some 'sperimenting myself and maybe we can invent one we'd both like. Currently I straddle between the one I believe.......and what I wish it was!

(for its part -- it doesn't care too much for me neither ;^) )

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: NicoleC
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 07:59 PM

Wouldn't Ecclesiasticus be called the ben Sira or Book of Sirach in the Jewish Bible?

Online text at: http://www.hope.edu/academic/religion/bandstra/BIBLE/SIR/SIR25.HTM