Tune Req: Gaelic Xmas carol

Subject: RE: Duan Nollaig
From: Felipa
Date: 05 Dec 20 - 08:49 AM

You can find lots of Christmas songs in Gaelic with translations to English on:
http://www.fionamackenzie.org/DuanNollaig.pdf
Fiona also has a CD entitled "Duan Nollaig" available.

Subject: RE: Gaelic Xmas carol
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 05 Dec 20 - 07:57 AM

as I wrote in 2006, 'tis the season to refresh this thread

I'm a bit late, in fact, as this month's srúbag singing session where most people speak and sing in Scottish Gaelic was last night. Other Celtic languages are welcome; there were two fine Breton singers present and several of us sang in Irish Gaelic. The Christmas songs were a mixture of songs of Gaelic origin and songs translated from English or other languages (perhaps indirectly, such as German-English-Gaelic, Latin-English-Gaelic). One singer, an Irishwoman who lives in Paris, sang an Irish language version of the Wexford carol mentioned by Martin Ryan earlier in this discussion thread.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Gaelic Xmas carol
From: Haruo
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 02:55 PM

I notice the 2003 Faber Christmas carol collection has a nice choral setting of an English version of the Taladh Chriosda.

Haruo

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Gaelic Xmas carol
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 12:52 PM

'tis the season ... I refreshed a couple of Irish Gaelic Christmas song threads, so I thought I should bring Scottish Gaelic to the fore as well

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Gaelic Xmas carol
From: GUEST,Wexford Carols and Yola
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 02:30 PM

Thanks Martin.

A further explantion of the origins of Yola extrated form the source you mention.

The Yola language is a branch of Middle English that evolved separately among the English who followed the Norman barons Strongbow and Robert Fitzstephens to eastern Ireland in 1169. They became concentrated mainly in County Wexford. Because these "Normans" more freely adopted elements of Irish culture, they were ostracized in England as "more Irish than the Irish themselves".

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Gaelic Xmas carol
From: MartinRyan
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 04:51 PM

The Wikipedia entry HERE gives what looks to me like a good account of Yola's origins.

Regards

p.s. and a song - to keep us from BS!

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Gaelic Xmas carol
From: MartinRyan
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 04:44 PM

O'Muirithe, incidentally, describes Yola (the word means old") as a "form of Chaucerian English."

Regards

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Gaelic Xmas carol
From: MartinRyan
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 04:40 PM

Some of them are around here, somewhere, I think - along with the unrelated "Enniscorthy Carol" sometime known as the "Wexford Carol".

The Kilmore tradition is quite unique. O Muirithe has documented it will - I have his book. That said, the carols are rarely, in my experience, sung other than in the Kilmore context. No bad thing, of course.

Regards

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Gaelic Xmas carol
From: GUEST,Com Seangan
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 04:27 PM

I have heard that some of the craols have been recorded by Anuna and are available on CD. Noirin Ni Riain has also recorded.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Gaelic Xmas carol
From: GUEST,Com Seangan
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 04:22 PM

The carols many of which are said to have been composed by the Parish Pries of Kilmore Fr. Devereux (a great Norman name) are still sung in Kilmore Church at Christmas time.

""Kilmore is a village in south county Wexford, situated approximately 10 miles from Wexford town. Kilmore has so many claims to distinction that it would be difficult to attempt to rate one above another, for the people of the locality are equally proud of them all. They have good justification for being so too, because these things have brought considerable fame to the area. One of the most widely known traditions to bring fame to the parish of Kilmore is the custom of carol singing in the village church at Christmas time, which has been taking place for over 200 years. Here we will trace the history of the famous Kilmore carols from the mid 18th century to the present day.

Kilmore's unique Christmas carols have been sung without a break since they were introduced to the Parish by Very Rev. Peter Devereux, who was Parish Priest about 1751. Some of them were written by Very Rev. Wm. Devereux, P.P., Piercestown, a native of Tacumshane, where he is buried. The remainder were written by Bishop Luke Waddinge of Ferns. In all there are thirteen carols and eight of them are usually sung during the Christmas period."

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Gaelic Xmas carol
From: GUEST,Com Seangan
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 04:15 PM

Haruo

I think Diarmuid O Muirithe (native of New Ross) and antiquarian is probably the best authority on the dialect. I'm sorry that I don't have the original songs. I see from an internet source that the dialect called Yola is also taken to be an off-shoot of an English dialect. However, Wexford is the one corner of Ireland which maintained the strongest Norman connection so until I am proved wrong, I will hold out on the Norman influence on the songs. Even to this day a look at the Telephone Directory will show an extaordinarily large presence of Norman family name: Roche, Furlong, Rossiter, Doyle, Breen, Keogh etc.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Gaelic Xmas carol
From: Haruo
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 02:06 PM

Com Seangan, by all means post some of these strange off-Flemish carols. The "Wexford Carol(s)" I'm familiar with are in English.

Haruo

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Gaelic Xmas carol
From: GUEST,Com Seangan
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 12:34 PM

George Seto. Your observations are most interesting. While there may be merit about Christmas not being highlighted in former days, but there is a dearth of Esater hymns in Irish too.

The puzzling thing (for me !) is that in South Wexford - near Fethard-on-Sea,there is a wealth of Christmas carols that has come down from Norman period to the present in a strange offshoot of a Flemish dialect.

Subject: RE: Explanations.
From:
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 10:29 AM

Yes, the recording is from Nova Scotia, in particular, Cape Breton.

As for not much in Gaelics (Irish or Scottish), most of the Gaelic songs we have were probably translated into Irish or Scottish Gaelic within the last 120 years. The main reason for the lack of a Gaelic Christmas song tradition is that until the last hundred or so years, Christmas was NOT a big celebration in those regions. Easter has always been the BIG event in the Church calendars.

Then the North American publicity mill took over and we have the big marketing system we have now.

Leanabh an Aigh and Taladh Chriosda are, IMO, Traditional as they have been handed down through the oral tradition. They were not passed through the written record until the latter part of the 19th century. As Haruo stated above, they have known authorship, but that doesn't make the "traditional tag invalid. That just means we are keeping ALIVE the tradition by remembering the person who wrote it.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Gaelic Xmas carol
From: GUEST,Com Seangan
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 07:24 AM

Sorry the title of the traditional Irish Christmas hymn sung by Deag Lynch of Armore was "Rudah e gan gradam". See above.

The first stanza went as follows (I omit the 'fadas' as they don't come out as an unsightly squiggle when I submit !):

"Rugdah e gan gradam
I mainsear fuar an asail
I lar an gheimhridh ghairbh
is gan dion Air o'n speir"

The good people who composed this centuries ago were obviously not too well informed on climatic conditions in the Middle East where late December generally has very pleasant weather.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Gaelic Xmas carol
From: Haruo
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 12:37 AM

And for what it's worth, Q, George Seto in his first mention of it in this thread, referred to both Taladh Chriosda and Leanabh an Aigh as "traditional"... Leanabh an Aigh is not anonymous, either. Mary Macdonald, I believe, wrote it. Again, the tune (Bunessan) is, as far as I know, of anonymous and older origin. At the time he wrote that, I was aware of Nicdonald's authorship, but not of Rankin's.

Haruo

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Gaelic Xmas carol
From: Haruo
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 11:37 PM

Not knew it, just had seen it. Written copies, and had heard the tune not knowing it was to it those words were sung. I'm not saying it is traditional, but that in some senses of "traditional" it may be. (Which it's harder to make a case for with "Seall Thall Tighinn Bhon Ear", I think.

Haruo

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Gaelic Xmas carol
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 09:38 PM

"Taladh Chriosda" has 29 verses plus the Aleluias. Father Rankin seems to have been long-winded. There are several modern revisions, tune variances and copyrights.

Of course if you knew it in several versions "for some time before I first heard of Rev. Rankin ...," then of course it has to be traditional.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Gaelic Xmas carol
From: Haruo
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 09:29 PM

Yes, you're right about the text not being anonymous, Q. But if we found out who first sung the tune, I'm not sure (except in an academic sense) that that would make the tune "not traditional". As far as I am concerned if a tune or text is passed down by oral tradition and without attribution for more than a century, then the subsequent discovery of authorship doesn't make it non-traditional. Most all texts and tunes started somewhere with someone. Or so I believe. (Now whether the Taladh Chriosda has had much anonymous, unattributed life is beyond my competence to judge; but it wouldn't surprise me. I myself knew of it in several versions for some time before I first heard of Rev. Rankin's having written it.)

Haruo

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Gaelic Xmas carol
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 09:16 PM

It has been my understanding that the tune to "Taladh Chriosda" is a waulking song and the lyrics date from about 1855, by Ranald Rankin, when he left his congregation in the Hebrides; hence only the tune is traditional.
A brief summary here: My Love, My Dear
It is sung by the Rankins, among others.

The website of the Catholic Church, Western Isles, Scotland, also repeats this story. Notable at this site is a list of hymns in Gaelic. Unfortunately, most of them were not originally Gaelic. Gaelic Resources

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Gaelic Xmas carol
From: Haruo
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 08:03 PM

"Seall Thall Tighinn Bhon Ear" pretty much has to be, at least the words, since they were written in Scotland in the 20th century and I see no reason to think the recording is a parody or anything. As for the recording's version of the "Taladh Chriosda", I think that's traditional and has probably been in Nova Scotia for generations. I'm not competent to judge how true to the traditional basis the recording is, nor whether what deviations there may be originated West or East of the water. (I haven't even heard the album yet.) Maybe George can say.

Haruo

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Gaelic Xmas carol
From: GUEST,Com Seangan
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 07:46 PM

The recording mau be from Nova Scotia - but I pr3sume trhat it is from an original Sctottish Gaidhlig version. Am I correct ?

I still wonder why that Irish Gaelic (despite a great treasury of religious hymns) has little or no Christmasa songs.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Gaelic Xmas carol
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 06:33 PM

Yes I have a tendency to call gaidhlig "Scots" Mea Culpa,

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Gaelic Xmas carol
From: Haruo
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 06:25 PM

George and I know this, assuming by Scots you mean Gaelic and not Lallans. (Though the recording is from Canada, not Scotland.) I presume Com Seangan also knows this.

Haruo

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Gaelic Xmas carol
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 06:23 PM

you do know these hymns are in Scots not Irish? And Nollaig is just Christmas.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Gaelic Xmas carol
From: Haruo
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 06:15 PM

Com Seangan writes, "It is astonishing that Irish Gaelic has hardly any Christmas songs..."

It occurs to me that in English, too, there are far fewer Irish Christmas songs per capita or per unit musical tradition than there are English ones. Not none, but not nearly as many.

Just an off-the-top-of-me-head impression.

Haruo

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Gaelic Xmas carol
From: Haruo
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 06:12 PM

I should have added I'll try to get hold of the recording. Too bad "Seall Thall Tighinn Bhon Ear" isn't one of the ones with an mp3...

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Gaelic Xmas carol
From: Haruo
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 06:09 PM

George, I'm at least as much trying to come up with quality singing translations (English as well as Esperanto) of both (especially Seall Thall Tighinn ... since I haven't seen a singable English version of it) as learn them. (I'd rather come up with an Esperanto version that was worth teaching to someone who sings better than I do...)

Haruo

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Gaelic Xmas carol
From: GUEST,Com Seangan
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 06:04 PM

Thanks George Seto. You link has been mist informative.

It is astonishing that Irish Gaelic has hardly any Christmas songs.
There is on that i collected from Deag Lynch of Monard, Ardmore, Co. Waterford "I lar an Gheimhridh Ghairbh" which he sang to the air of Sean O Dubhir an Gleanna (which was originally a religious air). Other than that I don't know of Irish Christmas carols that go back beyond 200 years.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Gaelic Xmas carol
From:
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 05:52 PM

Haruo, are you trying to learn the Taladh Chriosda? or Seall Thall Tighinn Bhon Ear?

There is a recording, Nollaig Chridheil which have both on it, if you want to learn it that way?

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Gaelic Xmas carol
From: Haruo
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 05:44 PM

refresh, try again this year...

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Gaelic Xmas carol
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 04 Dec 03 - 03:40 PM

I'm bringing this thread to light so you can learn your Gaelic song in time for the holiday

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Gaelic Xmas carol
From: Haruo
Date: 26 Sep 02 - 12:15 AM

Yes, but I think where George Seto etc. got hung up was not the "duan Nollaig" part but the English description, which used the term "carol", which means different things to different people (and to quite a few people, a few of whom perhaps ought to know better, means simply "duan Nollaig", or would if they knew any Gaelic).
Elliptically,
Haruo

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Gaelic Xmas carol
From: ciarili
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 08:25 PM

Um, duan Nollaig actually means Xmas song, I believe.

Subject: RE: Help: Gaelic Xmas carol tune
From: Haruo
Date: 19 Sep 02 - 12:45 AM

Got it. Thanks,

Haruo

Subject: RE: Help: Gaelic Xmas carol tune
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 17 Sep 02 - 10:30 AM

Staff notation for Taladh Chriosda (Eriskay version) can be seen at http://www.famouspotatoes.co.uk/fcarols/taladh.htm

Subject: RE: Help: Gaelic Xmas carol tune
From: Haruo
Date: 17 Sep 02 - 01:01 AM

Okay, I understand but what I was hoping you would explain was what the "specific connotations" are. And you say "with respect to the church", so I take it you don't mean the old Oxford Book of Carols bit about "hilarious" etc. etc., or the specific stanzaic form with the refrain first, or the notion that to be a carol it must have been in origin a dance. What does the term connote to you?

Haruo

Subject: RE: Help: Gaelic Xmas carol tune
From:
Date: 16 Sep 02 - 11:35 PM

A Christmas Song may not be a Carol. A Carol, to me, has specific connotations with respect to the church.

Duan Nollaig means "A Little Gaelic song" which to me implies it is not a Carol.

Subject: RE: Help: Gaelic Xmas carol tune
From: Haruo
Date: 16 Sep 02 - 11:00 PM

In what sense of "carol" is it "not a carol"? (And, for that matter, what is it, and what's it called, and where is it?)

Haruo
whose new screen name is almost as long as yours, though to less effect...

PS: I will shortly be shortening it to plain "Haruo"...

Subject: RE: Help: Gaelic Xmas carol tune
From:
Date: 16 Sep 02 - 04:27 PM

I don't have any MIDI file for it.

I did find an MP3 for it if you're interested at Sheena Philips. They also mention something called Duan Nollaig but all it says is "Traditional Gaelic Christmas Carol".

There is another song which is Christmas oriented but is not a carol.

Subject: RE: Help: Gaelic Xmas carol tune
From: Haruo
Date: 16 Sep 02 - 04:15 PM

I had to respell "Chriosta" as "Chriosda" to find "Taladh Chriosda"'s lyrics by Google, but I did find them, indeed 29 stanzas' worth. Now I am looking for the tune.

Haruo/Lìolaind

Subject: RE: Help: Gaelic Xmas carol tune
From: Haruo
Date: 16 Sep 02 - 03:59 PM

Having read a great deal of material on the subject now, I am still not sure who has the copyright in the tune, though it does appear that the composer was Iain Maclachlan. None of the "darkisle.mid" MIDI files I've found on the Web has any attribution or copyright notice. (Last year when this was being discussed here it completely slipped my notice.) I'll write to Mr. Galbraith and see if he can add anything (including the copyright status/owner of the text).

In the meantime, I have posted the song in my hymnal, at this page (I've also just added a Gaelic Amazing Grace at this page, FWIW).

Lìolaind / Haruo

Subject: RE: Help: Gaelic Xmas carol tune
From:
Date: 15 Sep 02 - 02:11 AM

I was wrong. Looks like there are two other sites which have Gaelic Hymns. One of them even has a loose translation.

The Gaelic Hymnal

Subject: RE: Help: Gaelic Xmas carol tune
From:
Date: 15 Sep 02 - 01:18 AM

Liland. Yes, the tune is a modern one. Dark Island is relatively popular.

Leanabh an Aigh is one and Taladh Chriosta is the other Public Domain Traditional songs that I know of which are Christmas oriented.

That song (probably from my web-site), Seall Thall Tighinn Bhon Ear, was probably only written within the last 20 to 30 years.

Subject: RE: Help: Gaelic Xmas carol tune
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 14 Sep 02 - 11:09 PM

The tune is modern, and in copyright. See the numerous past discussions here on that very subject.

Subject: RE: Help: Gaelic Xmas carol tune
From: Haruo
Date: 14 Sep 02 - 10:51 PM

Ah, that JC ;-) yes, I'm sure something there will do, if what I have already won't. Still interested in other info on the song (the Christmas one, not Dark Island), translation(s) if any, etc. Also any updates on the status of the tune, which appears to be a traditional tune that was shanghaied by copyright pirates, if I'm reading the discussion aright.

Haruo

Subject: RE: Help: Gaelic Xmas carol tune
From: Haruo
Date: 14 Sep 02 - 10:40 PM

Jimmy Carter's? Thanks; actually, I have the tune to Dark Island now, too, though my Gaelic's not really up to sticking the right vowels on the correct notes. I'll work on it this evening. Unless of course "An t-Eilean dorcha" (which I guess rhymes with your name?) is a different tune entirely.

Haruo

Subject: RE: Help: Gaelic Xmas carol tune
From: Sorcha
Date: 14 Sep 02 - 10:39 PM

Yup, it's there. Is that what you wanted?

Subject: RE: Help: Gaelic Xmas carol tune
From: Sorcha
Date: 14 Sep 02 - 10:37 PM

I have the tune to Dark Island if you would like an e mail scan, but let's look at JC's first.........

Subject: RE: Help: Gaelic Xmas carol tune
From: Haruo
Date: 14 Sep 02 - 10:32 PM

Maybe it's not a traditional tune after all. I looked in the DT for "Dark Island" and it had been removed for copyright reasons. Hmm.

Haruo