Sex changes (no not that kind)

Subject: Sex changes (no not that kind)
From: KateG
Date: 19 Sep 02 - 02:49 PM

When singing songs, e.g. old love songs, that are written from the man's or woman's point of view, what is the consensus (if any) on changing the lyrics to conform to one's own gender, especially if they have to be tweeked slightly to preserve the rhyme and/or metre?

Kate G

Subject: RE: Sex changes (no not that kind)
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 19 Sep 02 - 02:56 PM

I think boys should sing the boys songs, and girls should sing the girls songs...

But if yer gonna sing cross-gender, just sing it as written...

Subject: RE: Sex changes (no not that kind)
From: Mark Clark
Date: 19 Sep 02 - 02:58 PM

I much prefer leaving the sex of the narrative voice as it was traditionally sung. If hearning a man sing a “woman's song” makes us giggle or feel uncomfortable, we've got a lot more maturing to do than just our musicianship.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Sex changes (no not that kind)
From: RichM
Date: 19 Sep 02 - 02:58 PM

Change it or not,as you wish. Just consider it part of the folk process and sing whatever you want to.

Rich McCarthy

Subject: RE: Sex changes (no not that kind)
From: Mark Clark
Date: 19 Sep 02 - 03:04 PM

So let me get this straight... A man shouldn't sing “Wildwood Flower” and a woman shouldn't sing “Down in the Willow Garden?”

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Sex changes (no not that kind)
From: GUEST,toribw who should be working
Date: 19 Sep 02 - 03:14 PM

I agree, Mark. I sing songs from both points of view and don't change the words on any of them. Can't really see any reason to do so.

Subject: RE: Sex changes (no not that kind)
From: greg stephens
Date: 19 Sep 02 - 03:17 PM

Try to sing it as it is. If you feel funny, or they giggle at you, then OK change it. Now, does it feel as good as the original? Do people like it? Great, do it. Do you think youve messed the song up, or do loads of people tell you you have? Well, leave it alone, try another song.
It all depends on you, and the song. There can't be any rules. Just because of the way things are, there's more women around prepared to sing men's songs than vice versa.I would be plain ridiculous singing "Wish I was single girl again".

Subject: RE: Sex changes (no not that kind)
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 19 Sep 02 - 03:20 PM

Sing it as is and don't mess with the words. Sing what you like and if you avoid most junior high lunch rooms, most people won't giggle. mg

Subject: RE: Sex changes (no not that kind)
From: Amos
Date: 19 Sep 02 - 03:31 PM

Oh, Lordy -- you're singing a song, fer goo'ness sake. An' it's a song sung by a, say, seal!! (The Greate Silkie comes to mind). So...what...you gonna wait for a singing seal?

Naaaaaah. It is not illegal, immoral, improper, laughable, OR inhuman to at least _try_ to assume the viewpoint of the other sex for a bit. It might even be downright salubrious!!

A

Subject: RE: Sex changes (no not that kind)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Sep 02 - 04:02 PM

Just looked at the words of Wildwood Flower. Nothing in it says it's a girl singing it; same goes for it being a boy singing Down in a Willow Garden.

Why, Wildwood Flower even has the line:

I will dance, I will sing and my life shall be gay ...

Actually there are lots of songs where the dialogue switches back and forth between make and female. So are these imagined as reserved to mixed duos?

There are times when a change of gender in a song can help give it get across in a particular setting. I remember someone saying how they had "To be a Pilgrim", at a christening of a little girl I think, and they sang it as "She who would valiant be". That kind of thing makes sense. It helps people get extra depth in a song they maybe feel too familiar with.

But when it's just because a singer feels embarrassed singing in the persona of someone of the opposite sex, that's no kind of reason. And there are all kinds of songs where you couldn't make those kinds of changes because the story wouldn't let you - so do you abandon the idea of singing them?

Subject: RE: Sex changes (no not that kind)
From: Bert
Date: 19 Sep 02 - 04:30 PM

It all depends on the song. Many more modern love songs sound a bit silly if you don't change them. Then there are songs where the gender is intrinsically part of the song and cannot be changed e.g. 'I am a little flower girl'

Subject: RE: Sex changes (no not that kind)
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 19 Sep 02 - 04:48 PM

"So are these imagined as reserved to mixed duos?"

Not reserved for, but perhaps best done by?

,-)

Subject: RE: Sex changes (no not that kind)
From: Mr Red
Date: 19 Sep 02 - 06:19 PM

I say personalise
As long it has integrity otherwise sing as is or don't sing.
I do all three as and when appropriate.
Harmony groups - tough call. Harmony has to extend to harmonising on the words.
Now if it is humour you are after all bets are off......

Subject: RE: Sex changes (no not that kind)
From: Amos
Date: 19 Sep 02 - 07:17 PM

Kevin, it is not usual for a song from pre-1950 to include the line "He taught me to love him" if not sung by a lass, ya know...


A

Subject: RE: Sex changes (no not that kind)
From: Genie
Date: 19 Sep 02 - 07:27 PM

I think it depends on the song.  If it sounds silly or contrived when you change the person (e.g., from 2nd to 3rd) or gender, then sing it as it was written (if there is a standard or definitive version of the song).*  "The Lady Came From Baltimore," e.g., can't readily be changed.

But in some songs, the gender is really totally arbitrary.  The song "Bye, Bye, Blackbird," usually is sung as "...sugar's sweet, so is she...," but that's the only gender reference in the entire song, and "...so is he...," sounds just as natural.  "Tennessee Waltz" is another where the gender can be changed by changing a single pronoun that is not connected to the rhyme scheme."   I just heard a guy on the radio singing "The Butcher Girl," which is often sung as "The Butcher Boy," or 
"Railroad Boy."  It did not lose anything in the "transgenderization."  "Once I Had A Sweetheart," as sung by Joan Baez, is similarly gender flexible.  "A Boy Named Sue" is not.

I don't think a song should be considered gender bound unless the gender words are really germane to the story (like "The Cruel Mother"") or the meter or rhyme sounds awkward when the gender is changed.

What really bothers me is when people feel like they have to change the story because they changed the gender.  In the 1920s, '30s,  '40s, and even '50s in the US, it was common to alter the tale when a woman sang a "man's song," or vice versa.  E.g., Tex Ritter sang "...and I was born the next of kin, The next of kin to the Wayward Wind."  Gogi Grant sang "...and he was born the next of kin ...," instead of putting herself in the role of the one with wanderlust.  So stereotypic!

I sometimes sing a song in 3rd person instead of changing the gender.  I just sing it as a narrator, rather than as a participant in the drama.

Genie

*Unless I have original sheet music, if a song is old or traditional, how do I know it was originally sung from one gender's viewpoint or the other's, just because I have heard a man or a woman sing a particular version of the song.  I know both a man's (siblings) version of "Take Her Out Of Pity," and a woman's version, "Take Me Out Of Pity."  Is one right and the other wrong?
 

Singing seal -- love it, Amos!  LOL

You, too, McGrath, on Wildwood Flower -- LOL!

Subject: RE: Sex changes (no not that kind)
From: Joe_F
Date: 19 Sep 02 - 07:45 PM

Why is sex so all-fired important? Singing *any* first-person song requires crossing *some* line or other. There are few songs written from the point of view of neurotic 64-year-old queer atheistic copyeditors. Do I have to con a ship before I may sing "White Squall"? Do I have to kill somebody before I am allowed to sing "Sam Hall"?

As a human being, I am entitled to try to empathize with anybody, young or old, good or bad, smart or stupid, male or female, sufficiently to play his or her role for the space of a song. That does not involve, and does not call for, any kind of pretense. I have heard that there are masculinized versions of "The House of the Rising Sun", and even of "Dink's Song". I am seldom moved to use the word "perverted", but for that kind of thing I think it is the _mot juste_. Grotesque, at the very least.

Subject: RE: Sex changes (no not that kind)
From: Snuffy
Date: 19 Sep 02 - 08:23 PM

When I sing, I have no problem becoming a sailor or a ploughboy or a prince, so why should I have a problem becoming a milkmaid or a damsel?

A fair number of songs I sing are "women's songs" (Never Wed An Old Man, My Husband's Got No Courage/Porridge In Him, A Blacksmith Courted Me, etc., etc) and I've never noticed any animosity or inappropriate mirth.

Just sing the songs you love.

Subject: RE: Sex changes (no not that kind)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Sep 02 - 08:46 PM

I think the first time I heard House of the Rising Sun it had "It's been the ruin of many a poor boy, and me O Lord is one". It's a different story, he's a customer, but it still works. I think it's understood that he's got a lethal dose of the pox from frequenting the House, like the Young Sailor Cut Down in his Prime and so forth. Or something like that. Maybe he's just got hooked on the lifestyle. Either way, it's clearly not working out too well for him.

There is a female version of A Boy Named Sue, or rather a companion song, called, I think, A girl Named Sam. She has similar problems to Sue.

Subject: RE: Sex changes (no not that kind)
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Sep 02 - 09:38 PM

Sing it as it is.

I knew a man who changed 'My Johnny was a Shoemaker' to 'My Janey...'

The result was rather pathetic (to say the least)

Unless you have some problem with your own sexuality, I see no problem with a man singing a woman's song or otherwise.

As a hetrosexual male, I still sing 'I wish I was a maid again' whilst doing the washing up. It's a nice tune

Subject: RE: Sex changes (no not that kind)
From: Genie
Date: 19 Sep 02 - 09:47 PM

McGrath, there is a female response to "A Boy Named Sue," called "A Girl Named Johnny Cash." I think The Record Lady has an MP3 of it.

Genie

Subject: RE: Sex changes (no not that kind)
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Sep 02 - 04:44 AM

McGoH: (English style joke follows of a type which may not have crossed the pond)

"Knock knock"

"Who's there?"

"He!"

"He who?"

"He who would valiant be"(sung)

Nigel

Subject: RE: Sex changes (no not that kind)
From: dorareever
Date: 20 Sep 02 - 06:45 PM

No change.The point is the song itself,not who's singing.