What's Sentimental and what's Sickening?

Subject: RE: What's Sentimental and what's Sickening?
From: Joe_F
Date: 19 Sep 02 - 07:24 PM

I am very sentimental, and I used to believe that no song was too icky for me. (I am put off by "Turning toward the Morning", but not because it's sentimental -- because it's incoherent. Bok can't decided whether his metaphor is the daily or the yearly cycle.)

But some years ago, I read in a work of fiction a *description* of a song that seemed like a self-parody of sentimentality. Later on, I heard a rumor that it actually existed. This thread stimulated me to try the database, and sure enough, there it is: "The Last Game of the Season".

But, come to think, it's not the sentimentality of that, itself, that makes me gag. It's the combination of sentimentality with *football* & *religion*. So it is really snobbery & not taste that is in back of my response.

Subject: RE: What's Sentimental and what's Sickening?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Sep 02 - 07:20 PM

Plenty of songs might get me close to tears when I hear them; and there's a fair few I'd be a bit nervous of trying to sing because I might not get through them.

As for sickening - I can't think of any traditional song that I'd class that way. Some performances can be, the ones that try to squeeze out all the emotions and put them on display, and over-dramatize instead of letting the song take the weight. (toadfrog's comment on Silver Dagger leaves me puzzled - maybe it's some messed up version you're thinking of. I can't remember who it was suggested it's probably about incest, which is sickening enough thought - though very possibly true - but in another sense)

In fact that's probably true of a lot of modern songs that might get labelled as sickening - it's the way they are sung that is at fault. Maybe with modern songs people find it a bit harder to think of the song divorced from the performance.

Going back a bit, and in the American context, there are all kinds of verses the Carter Family sang which would come across as sickeningly over-sentimental from many singers. But the way they sang them, they don't come across that way. Might make me feel close to tears maybe. Nothing wrong with that in a song.

Subject: RE: What's Sentimental and what's Sickening?
From: JenEllen
Date: 19 Sep 02 - 06:48 PM

I think the 'sentimental' is when it hits you where you live. Physically and emotionally, we all live in different places (thank goodness) and what's home to some is crap to others.

Crying easily, sure. Anything that rattles the foundation unintentionally is likely to get that response. The stuff I find to be sheer crapola is when they try to evoke that response. Country music, perfect example: I've never felt less patriotic than I have since the new crop of songs has come out. I have a friend who gets teary every time he hears Red Sovine's Teddy Bear. (????) Or that song about the guy buying the car outta the old lady's garage, and it has a ghost letter in the glovebox? Gimme a break.

An' Jeri, lmao-- been there! (Feeeeeeceeees, whoa-whoa-whoa, feeeeeceees...)

Subject: RE: What's Sentimental and what's Sickening?
From: M.Ted
Date: 19 Sep 02 - 05:07 PM

It isn't a question of sentiment or anything like that--the song has to be catchy--whether the subject is love, murder or mayhem is irrelevant--audiences, for the most part, are pretty much indifferent to emotions, and only respond when the lyric is easier to remember than not--

Many pop songs are way over the top because the listeners are so insensitive that that extremes are the only things that get a response. If the mass audience was really sensitive, lyrics would be very subtle--

That said, I have a morbid fascination with songs that are either extreme, trite, or extremely trite. I have Bobby Goldsboro's Greatest Hits, and listen to "Honey" whenever I can--same with "Seasons in the Sun". There are a lot of "folk" songs that resort to extremes, as well, and, at least to me, those are part and parcel of the same thing--

I think that most performers decide early on whether they want to express themselves musically, or whether they want to please an audience (most writers, too)--after that, the road leads you--

Subject: RE: What's Sentimental and what's Sickening?
From: toadfrog
Date: 19 Sep 02 - 05:06 PM

Some speak of a distinction between sentiment and sentimentality -- Jeri has an excellent point. "Sentimentality" sort of means that feelings are being consciously manipulated by the author of the song. Traditional songs almost never give me that feeling. (But there's always "Silver Dagger," which I have trouble believing is really traditional.) One problem I have with singer-songwriter stuff is that it almost always has something false in it that leaves me feeling manipulated. Like, someone trying to tell you how a farmer or sailor, or mountaineer or whatever would feel, written by someone who saw some sailors or read about them in a book, and thinks they are just too, too, glamorous. It almost never works.

Subject: RE: What's Sentimental and what's Sickening?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 19 Sep 02 - 04:51 PM

Yup... yer totally right Rick.. too subjective... so I'll withhold comment except to say...

If I EVER have to hear "There Were Roses" again, it'll be WAY too soon...

Ug... Urlp... Puke!!

Subject: RE: What's Sentimental and what's Sickening?
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Sep 02 - 04:49 PM

Confession time. Yeah! I can get pretty soggy sometimes.

There are certain songs I just can't sing because of the way they affect me. I steal wholesale from Gordon Bok's records, but one I just can't get through is Turning Toward the Morning. Does it to me every time. Mary Black's recording of Anachie Gordon is another one. Why? I do others with similar themes with no problem. Perhaps it's Mary Black's intense performance of the song, but I can't even listen to the song without puddling up.

Not everybody's cup of tea, I know, but one of my favorite operas is La Bohème. It's about the kind of people I have known. Bohemians, Beats, hippies, whatever you want to call them. The ones in the opera are in Paris around 1850, but they're the same kind of young people, struggling to make their way as artists, poets, and musicians. It's so bloody sad in the final act when Mimi is dying. The best version I have ever seen was a Metropolitan Opera production (currently available on videotape and DVD) with Teresa Stratas and José Carreras, directed by Franco Zeffirelli. The singing is magnificent, the acting is excellent, and they all look the part. Sometimes just a recognizable snippet of music from La Bohème can set me off.

On the other hand, to me, Bobby Goldsboro's Honeyis pure pukesville.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: What's Sentimental and what's Sickening?
From: CraigS
Date: 19 Sep 02 - 04:43 PM

It tends to be sickening when the lyric is intended to evoke sympathy for the singer's self-indulgence, like Little Things (Willie Nelson) or There Stands The Glass

Subject: RE: What's Sentimental and what's Sickening?
From: Jeri
Date: 19 Sep 02 - 04:33 PM

Those songs make me gag, too, and yet I cry at plenty of other songs. I think the difference is that one type involves a somewhat detached songwriter or singer who's obviously trying very hard to provoke an emotional response. The other type seems like the songwriter and/or performer is getting emotional. If the song doesn't completely suck bilgewater, t's the level of sincerity that does it. Then again, never mind. I can cry at TV commercials, so I guess it just comes down to what mood I'm in.

(Before I wrote songs, I was going through a vet school and was learning how to check animal poop for worm eggs. The song I sang when doing this was "Feces...nothing more than feces..." Sorry.)

Subject: RE: What's Sentimental and what's Sickening?
From: MMario
Date: 19 Sep 02 - 04:28 PM

well - i'd class four of the above as sickeningly maudlin - and one as sentimental

Subject: RE: What's Sentimental and what's Sickening?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 19 Sep 02 - 04:26 PM

"pretty paper"??!! Oh my gawd Bert, I forgot about that one!

Subject: RE: What's Sentimental and what's Sickening?
From: Bert
Date: 19 Sep 02 - 04:03 PM

Of course there's an answer to this! You're just a miserable old fart Rick. *Hee Hee* Not liking Scarlet Ribbons indeed!!! You'll be saying you don't like Pretty Paper next y'ole scrooge.

Subject: What's Sentimental and what's Sickening?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 19 Sep 02 - 03:58 PM

There's obviously no actual answer to this, simply because it's so subjective, but I'd be interested in folks' opinions.

One person's "song from the heart" may well make another person gag, just as I've seen lengthy posts on Mudcat that often affect people in vastly different ways. I've seen many instances of folks "typing with tears in their eyes" after someones' words have reached them on a level that I just couldn't find.

So, my question would be: Do you cry easily? Do you get emotional over certain kinds of poetry? Conversely, what makes you say "that's so emotional it's cloying, or insincere, or just plain crap"? Is it strictly a "lyric" thing, or what you know about the composer's motives, or something else more intangible?

I'm not sure where I draw MY line, but it may be quicker than most, 'cause when I used to hear songs like "Watchin' Scotty Grow", "Feelings", "Tie a Yellow Ribbon" "Scarlett Ribbons" or "You Light Up My Life", I'd almost gag....and yet....they're ALL solidly constructed from a technical stand point, and obviously "reached" millions of folks. A friend once said "If you had kids, Rick, you wouldn't be as quick to dismiss songs because they were "too sentimental". He may have been right.

Cheers

Rick