Oldtime Jamming Question (duh)

Subject: Oldtime Jamming Question (duh)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 Sep 02 - 10:55 AM

OK, this is a dumb question.

When we lead a song at church, which is where we have done most of our music until recently, there is no spot between verses where we just play and no one sings, even on a tune we took from bluegrass gospel. That's because we are not doing a bluegrass or oldtime performance, we are leading the equivalent of a hymn, and the organ never takes a solo, so we don't either. (Although that WOULD be a riot to suggest it for a Sunday organist thing!)

So now we lead these jams, and as much as I'd like someone with more experience to lead them, these folks are all starting out too.

So in our Beginner Jam tonight (the first hour of the jam), I have Two Dollar Bill worked up to teach them. This is good because we have a bunch of under-13 fiddlers who come now and they want a chance to stretch some too, and I know they know that one. And I believe it will work as a 2-chord song so everyone should be happy.

What's the pattern for alternating sung and played verses?

Start with the intrumental, or start with singing?

If we play a verse instrumentally do we play through the chorus too? It's the same chord pattern, so who can tell what's happening anyhow?

Wishing I had paid more attention at other people's jams,

~Susan

Subject: RE: Oldtime Jamming Question (duh)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 Sep 02 - 11:04 AM

Listening to one now at Honkingduck, and it's an AABB pattern fiddle tune, with the fiddle teaching the whole thing first, going through it twice (AABB, AABB) then it's A sung, A played, B sung, B played.

Is bluegrass different?

~Susan

Subject: RE: Oldtime Jamming Question (duh)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 Sep 02 - 11:09 AM

On another at Honkingduck, it's an AB tune, and it's AB fiddled, A sung with fiddle, B (chorus) sung without fiddle, the second half of B played, then back to A sung & played.

Do we just pick a pattern for each song and stick to it?

(WHY could I not have been raised with this music and already KNOW all this????)

~Susan

Subject: ADD: Give Me Old-Time Music
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 Sep 02 - 11:17 AM

Now I am listening to Give Me Old - Time Music at Honkingduck. This is GRAET! It's the tune of "Gimme Dat Oldtime Religion." There are only two verses on the recording, but it's got possibilities to go on all night and teach people how to take a short solo going around the circle:

Potatoes, then songleader sings and all play:
Give me old-time music,
Give me old-time music,
Give me old-time music,
It's good enough for me.

(Next, all play it once through)

Songleader:
They play it on the bass fiddle,
They play it on the bass fiddle,
They play it on the bass fiddle,
It's good enough for me.

(Next, bass plays lead once through, others back it up)

All:
Give me old-time music,
Give me old-time music,
Give me old-time music,
It's good enough for me.

Songleader:
Pick it on the banjo,
Pick it on the banjo,
Pick it on the banjo,
It's good enough for me.

(Now the banjo plays lead once through, others back it up)

You could go on all night!

~Susan

Subject: RE: Oldtime Jamming Question (duh)
From: Sorcha
Date: 20 Sep 02 - 11:24 AM

Do it any way you like; on the rare occasions that we have vocals it seems to work best with an instrumental lead in.

Subject: RE: Oldtime Jamming Question (duh)
From: greg stephens
Date: 20 Sep 02 - 11:28 AM

You decide. You'll have more faith in what you're going for if it's yours. And if it doesntwork, tweak it. Good luck.

Subject: RE: Oldtime Jamming Question (duh)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 Sep 02 - 11:43 AM

Well it would help if I were the fiddler then, but I'm the rhythm and singer. It can make it hard to toss it to the players.

~S~

Subject: RE: Oldtime Jamming Question (duh)
From: greg stephens
Date: 20 Sep 02 - 12:07 PM

If you're not used to this, many courses are open.You can look meaningfully at the person about to take the solo. Or you can shout "fiddle solo" Or some more folky interjection like "Take it from then John". (Change this to include their name, so as to be sure of attracting their attention).Sort of pointing your guitar at them can look quite cool too. with blowing a kiss an optional extra.(that might be over-familiar for church use, unless you consider it as the Kiss of Peace).

Subject: RE: Oldtime Jamming Question (duh)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 Sep 02 - 12:26 PM

Yes, but the problem is, there is often not a pause between the end of the verse or chorus and the start of the next section.... so there is a shortage of time to toss it, because my mouth is busy singing, see? A player can speak and play, but I can't speak and sing. I suppose once people know the chorus well enough I could speak over the last line of it instead of singing it.... I know I can tell them before we start, what will be expected, but I think the smartest thing I can do is seat some people near me who know the pattern I have planned, and then after they have done their round others will see their turn coming.

Worries, worries, worries. And I ought to be cleaning-- it's jam noght at our house tonight! *G*

The sad thing is (sob sob), we are almost devoid of people here who actually know how this is done, so we are almost having to reclaim a lost art. Thank God for Honkingduck!

~Susan

Subject: RE: Oldtime Jamming Question (duh)
From: Sorcha
Date: 20 Sep 02 - 12:36 PM

Raise your chin and point with it. Or nod your head at whoever you want to take it........

Subject: RE: Oldtime Jamming Question (duh)
From: Bert
Date: 20 Sep 02 - 12:58 PM

You're the singer and you're the leader, so why not start in singing and bring the instrumentals in after? Prep the instrumentalists so that they know that they will be called to play a break.

Subject: RE: Oldtime Jamming Question (duh)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 Sep 02 - 01:06 PM

Why not just curl up in a little ball and whine? *G* OK, I guess I can do this, I don't usually start something I won't be able to do. But there isn't really a RIGHT way to lay out the pattern?

~Susan

Subject: RE: Oldtime Jamming Question (duh)
From: Sorcha
Date: 20 Sep 02 - 01:10 PM

Nope

Subject: RE: Oldtime Jamming Question (duh)
From: Mark Clark
Date: 20 Sep 02 - 05:16 PM

Susan,

The time-honored bluegrass jam tradition is to play a short intro of two or four bars and begin singing the first verse followed immediately by any chorus or refrain. Instrumental breaks at a jam are usually played on the verse only unless the verse is very short and the chorus has different chords. Even when the difinitive recording of a song has fewer breaks, a jam session will usually stick with regular alternation to give more pickers an opportunity.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Oldtime Jamming Question (duh)
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 20 Sep 02 - 05:38 PM

It's however you decide to do it, and what your instrumental resources are. If you have a lot of pickers it's normal to go around in a circle, sometimes doing two or even three instrumental breaks between verses if there's not enough verses to space them out one at at time.

If it's a group of pickers unfamiliar with each other and the song, the leader can preface the start by saying "this is in G with a two chord (A) and the break is on the chorus" (or verse, depending on what you choose). If there's no time to say who should take the break, like "fiddle," or "banjo," or "whatever," then nod or look pleadingly with your eyes.

After awhile, in any group, you learn who you can depend on for a lead, or who's going to bring the whole shebang to a stop with a "deer in the headlights" look of panic and no music emanating from their instrument. (Happened just last night with a new bass player on "Mamma Don't Allow")

If you have a lead instrument who can do a short "turnaround" - the two to four bars that Mark mentioned - it's a good way to set the tempo and key, although it's always best to state the key at the outset.

Subject: RE: Oldtime Jamming Question (duh)
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 20 Sep 02 - 05:40 PM

I should have added, that in real old-time circles, everyone generally plays in unison - which I believe Celtic does too, it's only the bluegrassers who like to do individual instrumental breaks. (I'm sure there are regional variations !?!)

Subject: RE: Oldtime Jamming Question (duh)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 Sep 02 - 06:17 PM

Thanks, men! Now, if we do a bluegrass-style break for a solo or instrumental round, do we come back in singing the chorus? IS it that we play the verse instead of singing it, and catch the skipped verse after the break and chorus?

Can you just come over? *G*

~Susan

Subject: RE: Oldtime Jamming Question (duh)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 Sep 02 - 11:24 PM

You were all correct. We had a blast.

~S~

Subject: RE: Oldtime Jamming Question (duh)
From: Les B
Date: 21 Sep 02 - 01:24 AM

WYSIWYG - glad it worked out for you. It's all kind of made up on the fly, unless you're a real band, and that's what rehearsals are for - to work out just how you're gonna do it every time.

You referenced the old time music on Honkingduck. My sense is that in the early days of recording the musicians adjusted their songs to "fit" the two or three minutes of recording time available, and that the record producer might be signaling them to extend or cut the song/tune. I wouldn't judge any of their patterns (AABB or AB, etc.) to be a standard - they might not do them the same way at all in a live performance.

Subject: RE: Oldtime Jamming Question (duh)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 21 Sep 02 - 01:43 AM

Yeah, we were talking about that very aspect (radio play) tonight after the jam. My husband is a wonderful partner in looking at what has just occurred in any situation, and seeing what was going on underneath and why a thing worked. This lets us learn every time, and lets us be more intentional about things the next time around. We just keep wondering about a thing, till we see what there is to see.

What I ended up doing was asking my husband to sing on the song I wanted to work on, so I could shuffle the pieces around between him and a fiddler who had never payed lead before-- it was stunning, since the fiddlers he's used to leaning on were not here tonight. So he really grabbed hold and did a job for us all tonight. He felt like a million bucks and I banged out the time on my very loud autoharp, and I would let my husband know whether to take the verse or chorus to sing, and when. It was "Two Dollar Bill," and it worked great.

The other conclusion we drew is that it is not, in the final analysis, important at all how well someone plays or sings when leading-- because the most important thing is just that someone with good rhythm and half a clue about the tune LEADS it so everyone else present can have a great time screwing around on backup, trying different things. If the one on lead does a stellar job, we concluded, THAT will be noticed, but if they do LESS than a stellar job, no one will care because most people in the jam are listening to themselves! *G* And I learned a hard but key lesson-- the Jam Leader outranks any Oldtime Police present! (Any police in attendance can just lead it their way next time-- we always bow, after the Beginner Jam, to anyone present who is more skilled than we, if s/he wants to take over leading the songcircle.)

Anyway it was great being right between these two guys, my husband and the fidddler, as they tossed it back and forth, and I was unobtrusive enough that they will do it more seamlessly, on their own, next time.

We also got a brand-new lap dulcimer player lead out "Mary Had a Little Lamb." It's the one piece he has learned, because he just started playing.) He finally GOT it that you do not pause before starting the tune over-- a lady sang with him quietly at his elbow so he could know to keep going-- and he was thrilled to be given a chance to play for so long, and we all joined in with enough variation, verse to verse, but very quietly, that we made that thing sound pretty damn good!

It's wonderful, getting a chance to draw people into the fun. Makes me mad no one has been working with folks here till now. What a waste!

Thanks again, all, for the hope and encouragement. About a dozen new players, and a couple of old fogies, benefited. I will never forget that fiddler finding out he could really PLAY, while his wife and two very little girls watched daddy shine, and the younger girl droned along with me, watching my fingers on the chord buttons to see where daddy was taking us all. BIG eyes! Super!

"Folk Music and the Meaning of Life"???? We got that, too!

~Susan

Subject: RE: Oldtime Jamming Question (duh)
From: paddymac
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 01:44 AM

Step one is to free yourselves from the paper and allow yourselves the freedom to do as you damn well please.

Step two is to think about the singer's needs for breathing breaks, also known as instrumental breaks.

If you listen, the song or tune will often tell you what to use for breaks or turn-arounds.

Don't look for a set formula. Look for whatever seems to work with a particular piece.

Most importantly, have fun experimenting. It seems like you've already discovered that. Now enjoy it.

Subject: RE: Oldtime Jamming Question (duh)
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 01:58 AM

When you start these threads...are you SURE you are not infused with something a little more "earthy" than the power of the Holy Spirit?