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BS: (UK Only) Anyone going to today's march?

Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 21 Sep 02 - 11:18 PM
Liz the Squeak 22 Sep 02 - 03:05 AM
DMcG 22 Sep 02 - 04:08 AM
pavane 22 Sep 02 - 05:01 AM
John MacKenzie 22 Sep 02 - 05:16 AM
Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland 22 Sep 02 - 05:28 AM
Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland 22 Sep 02 - 05:32 AM
Gareth 22 Sep 02 - 05:35 AM
The Shambles 22 Sep 02 - 06:20 AM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Sep 02 - 07:29 AM
John MacKenzie 22 Sep 02 - 07:37 AM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Sep 02 - 07:52 AM
John MacKenzie 22 Sep 02 - 08:05 AM
GUEST 22 Sep 02 - 08:07 AM
John MacKenzie 22 Sep 02 - 08:23 AM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Sep 02 - 09:47 AM
Eric the Viking 22 Sep 02 - 10:05 AM
Mac Tattie 22 Sep 02 - 10:11 AM
GUEST,Jon Freeman 22 Sep 02 - 11:05 AM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Sep 02 - 11:10 AM
Leadfingers 22 Sep 02 - 12:17 PM
Liz the Squeak 22 Sep 02 - 01:00 PM
The Shambles 22 Sep 02 - 01:02 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Sep 02 - 01:15 PM
Liz the Squeak 22 Sep 02 - 01:20 PM
Liz the Squeak 22 Sep 02 - 01:35 PM
Big Tim 22 Sep 02 - 02:08 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 22 Sep 02 - 02:27 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Sep 02 - 02:33 PM
Liz the Squeak 22 Sep 02 - 02:34 PM
Liz the Squeak 22 Sep 02 - 02:50 PM
Big Tim 22 Sep 02 - 03:01 PM
John MacKenzie 22 Sep 02 - 03:12 PM
Mac Tattie 22 Sep 02 - 03:17 PM
Liz the Squeak 22 Sep 02 - 03:32 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Sep 02 - 03:40 PM
GUEST,Jim 22 Sep 02 - 03:55 PM
Liz the Squeak 22 Sep 02 - 04:05 PM
Gareth 22 Sep 02 - 04:08 PM
Liz the Squeak 22 Sep 02 - 04:11 PM
GUEST 22 Sep 02 - 04:18 PM
GUEST,Ray Harding 22 Sep 02 - 04:58 PM
Liz the Squeak 22 Sep 02 - 05:12 PM
GUEST 22 Sep 02 - 05:15 PM
Liz the Squeak 22 Sep 02 - 05:30 PM
GUEST 22 Sep 02 - 05:45 PM
GUEST,Simon Richardson 22 Sep 02 - 06:52 PM
JudeL 22 Sep 02 - 07:04 PM
GUEST 22 Sep 02 - 07:07 PM
Gareth 22 Sep 02 - 07:08 PM
GUEST,Simon Richardson 22 Sep 02 - 08:13 PM
GUEST 22 Sep 02 - 08:28 PM
GUEST,Simon Richardson 22 Sep 02 - 08:39 PM
GUEST 22 Sep 02 - 09:06 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 22 Sep 02 - 09:10 PM
GUEST 22 Sep 02 - 09:16 PM
GUEST,janey 22 Sep 02 - 09:35 PM
GUEST 22 Sep 02 - 09:50 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Sep 02 - 10:34 PM
Liz the Squeak 23 Sep 02 - 02:57 AM
Big Tim 23 Sep 02 - 03:18 AM
Gervase 23 Sep 02 - 03:21 AM
Ringer 23 Sep 02 - 05:30 AM
Skipjack K8 23 Sep 02 - 05:38 AM
Gervase 23 Sep 02 - 05:40 AM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Sep 02 - 05:43 AM
GUEST 23 Sep 02 - 05:45 AM
Nigel Parsons 23 Sep 02 - 05:59 AM
GUEST 23 Sep 02 - 06:09 AM
GUEST 23 Sep 02 - 06:18 AM
The Shambles 23 Sep 02 - 09:55 AM
Ringer 23 Sep 02 - 10:02 AM
GUEST,Towny 23 Sep 02 - 11:56 AM
GUEST 23 Sep 02 - 12:12 PM
Grab 23 Sep 02 - 01:55 PM
Clinton Hammond 23 Sep 02 - 02:11 PM
The Shambles 23 Sep 02 - 02:17 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Sep 02 - 02:28 PM
Clinton Hammond 23 Sep 02 - 02:44 PM
John MacKenzie 23 Sep 02 - 04:41 PM
Clinton Hammond 23 Sep 02 - 04:57 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 24 Sep 02 - 03:28 AM
Ringer 24 Sep 02 - 04:27 AM
Nigel Parsons 24 Sep 02 - 07:22 AM
The Shambles 24 Sep 02 - 07:33 AM
GUEST 24 Sep 02 - 07:51 AM
Nigel Parsons 24 Sep 02 - 07:56 AM
GUEST 24 Sep 02 - 08:11 AM
Nigel Parsons 24 Sep 02 - 08:35 AM
Manitas_at_home 24 Sep 02 - 08:43 AM
John MacKenzie 24 Sep 02 - 02:43 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Sep 02 - 03:32 PM

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Subject: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 21 Sep 02 - 11:18 PM

Any UK catters going to the protest march today?


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 03:05 AM

Much as I would love to, to try and preserve the livelihood of my family, the industries that kept this country fed in times of war and trouble, to protect the way of life of millions of people who don't happen to live in the the Home Counties or have a 9-5 job, I can't for health reasons. However, they have my support, I've signed any CA petitions that have come my way, I've openly defended their rights to freedom of speech and fought many a verbal battle on their behalf.

And to the small faction that I know are only in this for self publicity and to cause trouble - one day, I hope you need a farmer to provide your food, supply your drink and keep your green land pleasant. What am I saying - unless you eat air and drink rain, you DO need farmers, and dairymen and pickers and planters and all those other dirty, smelly, shit laden, back and heart breaking jobs that you in your nice suburban semis know nothing about.

To (possibly) lighten up, or maybe to just illustrate a point - I overheard a mother/child debate in the supermarket near my work in Central London... child: 'Mum, can I have an apple now?' Mum (in extremely posh voice): 'No, these are for home, there aren't enough, they don't grow on trees you know!'..... I couldn't decide which was worse... a child denied a healthy snack or a grown woman who thinks apples come from factories!

If you are marching, be safe. If not, be supportive.

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 04:08 AM

If the march was just about the issues Liz is talking about, I would support it. However, my prediction is that over the next few months we will hear repeatedly that quarter of a million turned out in support of fox-hunting, livelihood will be interpreted just as those directly supported by the hunt and the important wider issues Liz mentions will be completely ignored.


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: pavane
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 05:01 AM

Would love to go, as I live in a rural setting, but not practicable due to weekly commute.


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 05:16 AM

WELL SAID LTS. People live too far from their roots these days, and in their rise to middle classdom, they find time to develop a conscience. The problem is that most of them get their political conscience from politicians, and that's the worst place to find anything. The anti-hunt lobby is almost wholly middle class, and is a fashion item in the same way as flares are. We all know that fashion and public opinions are cyclical, so there's a chance that some day folk music may become a cause celebre. Of course when that happens we'll all be heroes for keeping the flame burning through the dark days of Hip Hop,Rap,Garage, and all these other wonderfully absurdly named music fads.
Rant over...Wish I was on the march.....Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 05:28 AM

No I won't be going on the march, because the people who live in countryside live in a different world from the rest of us. I mean, the posh cafes down in London like the Dorchester and places like that are flinging their doors opened and other posh places, I just wonder if they would do that if it was a trade union protest march.


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 05:32 AM

so that after their march they can go and get a meal. I some how don't think that these people will go to MacDonalds or KFC.


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Gareth
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 05:35 AM

Liberty & Livelyhood are not what this march is about.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 06:20 AM

I don't remember seeing many 'green wellies' on marches for the Liberty and Livelyhood of miners, steelworkers and many of the other causes I have and would support.

There are indeed problems for workers in the countryside and eleswhere. However, I doubt if the organisers of this march are really much concerned about these.


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 07:29 AM

Yes, but you've got to remember, Shambles - when miners and steelworkers were trying to protect their communities and their livelihood, they didn't make a central issue of defending the right to preserve dog-fighting and cock-fighting. If they had I'm sure they'd have had support from the blood-sports enthusiasts.

Poor people in the countryside have always had a rough time, especially from rich landowners. Issues like the run-down of small farming, and the practice landlords have of chucking people out of their tied cottages to sell them to rich townies who then join the local hunt - somehow these have always been brushed aside.

I suspect that if some farm-labourer were to go on that march with a banner saying "Save the countryside - and sod the hunt", he'd be in trouble when he got back home.

There are a lot of people in the countryside would be happy to see the end of hunting, and they must resent the way issues that matter, such as rural housing and schools and transport and employment, are now being exploited and tarnished by the blood sports brigade, led by very people who have been largely responsible for what has gone wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 07:37 AM

I forgot to mention the other reason why the left wing, Islington dwelling, so called intelligentsia, don't like country pursuits. Class envy. It has been said of course the socialism is the politics of envy.
It was also said that if a man was not a socialist by the time he is 18, then he has no heart. If however he is still a socialist at 30, he has no brains.
It's not that I don't have a social conscience, it's just that so many of these do-gooders are so rabid, that if they were a dog, they'd be shot. There is no room in their rant for the consideration of the other persons viewpoint. It's a case of if you're not with me you're against me,and consequently many of them have an enormous chip on their shoulder.
Failte....Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 07:52 AM

And people who are against cruelty to children are just namby pamby pinkos who want to disregard the traditional way of life of sections of society with which they don't wish to associate.


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 08:05 AM

That's what I mean, drag in totally silly and emotive statements, and specious comparisons, to try and prove a point. NOBODY mentioned cruelty to children Kevin, please don't muddy the waters.
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 08:07 AM

Nobody mentioned Socialism until you chose to in a silly and emotive statement...


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 08:23 AM

It is a socialist government that is proposing to bring this law in, therefore it is necessary to mention the word. I know that this government tries hard to conceal its socialist roots, in the same way as TB tries to pretend he's not Scottish. The saddest part of it all is that they deceived the electorate into voting for them, thinking they still stood for the same things as they did originally.
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 09:47 AM

You'd probably find more people in favour of hunting among trendies in Islington than you would among working class people in most parts of London (including Islington, which is still mostly working class).

In fact there've been surveys which indicate that most peple in the countryside are also opposed to hunting. Including that raving lefty Ann Widdicombe.

They keep a bit quieter about it (not Ann Widdicombe of course) - and you can't blame them for that.


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 10:05 AM

I hardly think that this particular government represent the socialist ideal, but that as maybe. Though not a tory supporter, I have no real problem with fox hunting-though I do feel the fox has a biological niche that it is foolish to remove, since it will fill with rats as scavengers.But then the converse is also true, if foxes are left unchecked, then the possibility of them increasing dramatically in number is also real. I do agree that many people have little idea of country life and the social infrastructure within it. I myself believe in let and let live, even if it means hunting foxes in tradditional dress and the ceremonial that goes with it.(I don't go to watch soccer, but wouldn't stop anyone else) We would all be up in arms if they banned Morris dancing, though that's hardly a good analagy. But traddition should be encouraged, whether it's a Morris or a hunt.We (the collective we-)do our best to allow and encourage ethnic minorities to celebrate their culture, why can't we celebrate ours?

The farmers and other countryside dwellers do sustain and protect an environment that it rapidly decreasing. They manage land, and are leaders in conservation, much like anglers have preserved and enriched the nations waters.

When they have banned fox hunting, will they start on fishing next? then what? Maybe in a few years, internet chat will be more closely monitored, since large numbers of people can discuss whatever they wish without check or hinderence at the moment.What'l we do then?

Anyway, though I dispise the upperclasses, who took the land by virture of money, power and a failure of the law to protect the poorer individuals, I would leave them alone,in this respect since they employ a large number of people who rely upon them to keep their families fed (Though the rich bastards could pay them a lot more, and still be rich).(This is not class jealousy, or envy)

Please don't come back at me with;so you think bear baiting or cock fighting are Ok, or that it's ok since it seems to be something of a traddition that the rich and powerful can abuse children etc-it's not worth the argument.

The fox is a beautiful animal, splendid colours from ruddy brown to silver, see a silver fox on a moonlit night, there's a magical sight. I suppose see it in your chicken run, having savaged your hens then it's a different matter.

If we don't protect the countryside, it won't exist for much longer. A new road here, a new motorway from here to there, a new housing estate, farming on the verge of collapse, old farms being sold for little money so that the new rich can turn it into a private retreat with no sensible land mangement ideas except private golf courses etc-that's hardly a good idea!

We live with far too much interference in our lives, more laws, more rules-oneness with whose ideal? Silly though it may seem, though not dissimilar, as one small group is going to dictate to the many, the Plaid are going to ban sweets and crisps from schools if they get a majority next time.When will the phrase mind your own business become popular again?


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Mac Tattie
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 10:11 AM

The "comment" in the "sevendays" section of to-days Sunday Herald went straight to the point with "Why it is wrong to turn the countryside into "us v them". My own point is that many,if not all, of the "marchers" who have real muck on their boots and hands will be there on the ORDERS of their masters and, in effect, owners. There are real and growing problems in rural areas and all stem back to the stranglehold the Lairds and Lords of the manor have over, as they see it, their captive, cheep, workforce.


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: GUEST,Jon Freeman
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 11:05 AM

"The fox is a beautiful animal, splendid colours from ruddy brown to silver, see a silver fox on a moonlit night, there's a magical sight. I suppose see it in your chicken run, having savaged your hens then it's a different matter."

I have seen that, as has my mother and my grandmother, etc and we still all see (or saw in past generations) the fox as a beautiful animal and don't blame it for managing to find ways in to what ultimatley has been poor protection for the birds. My mother still keeps hens and we did our best to save the lives of some cubs only a matter of weeks ago...

McTattie my well have a point. The Welsh countryside I lived in from about 7 till 13 an later from 18 till 38 had no fox hunting (with hounds - once in a while, a fox was shot) but my mother describes her part of rural Shropshire as being almost feudal with the "lord of the mannor".

It seems to me from the stories I've heard her tell that the real village kids used to have fun with the fox hunting. They hated the "sport" and their game was trying to put the hounds off the scent - rebellion from children - the only ones not afraid to "voice thier opinion". I wonder if this happened in other parts of the country?

Another side to the country I know is little secrets, e.g. friend of my mother could take us to spots where there are badgers that only trusted members of the community know about. There are so called "country people" and people who know the countryside and country life.

Jon


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 11:10 AM

Here is a link to a set of opinonn polls on all this carried out by MORI (who are neutral on thigs like this, and would be out of by=usiness if they weren't).

Among other things it indicates a significant majority of countryside people as wanting to see a ban.

Incidentally there are about as many foxes living in towns these days as in the country. They are no fools. Any time I'm out late I expect to see one along the way; and I met one walking down the street at lunchtime the other way, cool as a cucumber. A pack of foxhounds and hunters would be far more disruptive.


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 12:17 PM

Since when has New Labour had any connection with Socialism?They dropped the Socialst connection last century. And the anti hunt thing will be all we hear about after the march.Not the real problems of the countryside.


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 01:00 PM

Here's todays bit of useless information.... did you know that the NSPCC (National Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Children) started as AN OFFSHOOT of the RSPCA (Royal Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Animals), and about 10 years AFTER it.

The march is not about the rights of animals, although the various jobs at stake if various forms of hunting are banned is an issue, it's about the rights of the children of present day farmers, who in 5 - 10 years time will have no options left to them but to move into the cities and farming will become extinct.

There is a fox family living quite happily not 1000 yards from my house in East London. Haven't seen any farmers living here happily recently. Haven't seen many farmers (and 3 of my 5 uncles are farmers/agricultural labourers) living happily anywhere recently. That's what I'm supporting.... the right of this country to retain an agricultural heritage and an agricultural future.

Todays' other piece of useless information.... the farm I spent much of my childhood on, makes the equivalent of more money now showing people how farming was done 70 years ago, than it did as a working farm, 70 years ago when my grandfather worked it and my mother was born on it. However then, it employed 10 people full time, 40+ during harvest (dairy herd of over 300, 4 working horses and market garden), gave the workers 2 meals a day and was practically self supporting. Now it employs 15 and has 6 cows.

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 01:02 PM

The fox is a beautiful animal, splendid colours from ruddy brown to silver, see a silver fox on a moonlit night, there's a magical sight. I suppose see it in your chicken run, having savaged your hens then it's a different matter.

If I leave my car unattended with lots of flashy and attractive items inside on display, I can rant at those who would take advantage but I am not totally unaware of the posibility of someone being tempted and the responsibilty to protect my car and things is mine.

So it is with the fox, our bad husbandry should not be blamed on the fox. It is the same with the badger (and foot and mouth). Governments have decided the best way to deal with farmers problems, is to allow them to kill something. It does not solve the problem but it seems to keep the farmers happy for a while and stops them blaming the Government.

No one is seriously maintaining anymore that hunting with dogs has any effect on fox populations. We all kill more on the roads with our cars that hunts ever manage to do.


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 01:15 PM

If the anti-hunt people who are a majority in country disrtrcts held a march in protest at the devastation that has been caused to the countryside,and its inhabitants, there be a lot more townspeople turning out to join them. But they wouldn't have the big landowners and the Eton schoolboys and so forth. And the media wouldn't be too interested I suspect. The press and the telly always prefer a nice simple story.


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 01:20 PM

People marching in protestation against the destruction of their livelihoods are not necessarily anti hunt protesters.

Anti hunt protesters are not necessarily marching to protest at the lot of the farmer, neither are they all going to be farmers whose land is invaded and fences ruined by hunters.

Neither are all hunt supporters going to be Hooray Henries who don't know a John Deere from a Massey Fergusson.

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 01:35 PM

And to answer the initial question - around half a million people were counted on the march... so probably nearer 750,000. So far, only 3 arrests. All that to protest about the votes cast by a mere 200+ MPs, who are bent on destroying the way of life of half the population.

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Big Tim
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 02:08 PM

Life in the country is market driven like everywhere else. There's no plot agin "the countryside" and if jobs do go it's just dictated by supply and demand. I mean, our ancestors all lived in the country prior to the the economic changes brought about by the Industrial Rev. I don't recall 407,000 people marching to save their jobs.


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 02:27 PM

I think DMCG [3rd post in the thread], is exacly right, i am going out now put i will post more about this after i get back.john


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 02:33 PM

Hunting foxes is not "the way of life of half the population". No more than badger baiting was. It's a pastime indulged in by a minority, some of whom live in the country, many of whom are townies.

It would have been quite possible to set the hunting issue on one side - to have organised a rally in support of fox hunting one weekend, and a demonstration about all the other problems another weekend. That could then have been joined by people in the countryside who would actually like to see hunting banned (who are a majority), together with all the rest of us who live in towns and who share the anger at has been done to the country way of life.

But that would not have suited the people who want to use countryside discontent to try and defend their pastime. Especially since, many of them have played a crucial role in bringing about the problems in the first place.


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 02:34 PM

Yes, you are right, life is supply and demand... but when you are permitted by the government to supply a only a certain amount of product and not one ounce, gram, pint or half litre more despite demand, then things are badly wrong. And what happens to that demand? Well, the deficit which Britain IS NOT ALLOWED TO PRODUCE is then imported from abroad, at a higher cost to everyone.


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 02:50 PM

And if you don't recall 400,000 people marching to save the jobs of those affected by the Industrial Revolution, then you best go look in the DT for a few of the related songs.

We still sing songs now protesting about working conditions and lack of work (Four loom weaver, Blackleg miner, to name 2), people will still be singing songs about the hunter and his way of life in years to come.

And concerning hunting.... I am not a hunt supporter. I have done my fair share of sabotage in the past because I believe there is a more humane way of disposing of predators. I am not soppy about foxes, they are animals that eat other animals, have pretty coats (but only if they haven't been round the block a few times), will kill for pleasure not just for food, and they, like other animals, carry diseases like rabies and distemper. I am the product of a long line of agricultural and rural labourers, whose livestock were the prey of these animals. It is not just the dubious 'pleasures' of the huntsman which is affected by these Bills, but the livelihood of the associated trades. Farriers and blacksmiths, grooms and stablehands, trainers and breeders, a whole heap of people who will be made jobless if hunting is banned. And then these people will have to sign on. And who will have to pay for their social security??? The loss of the farrier and blacksmith will mean that other working horses will have to go farther for shoeing; machinery that could have been fixed by the smith (and how many Forge or Old Smithy Garages are there up and down the country?) will have to be scrapped or replaced. Prices will go up because the smiths can't make a living, another family homeless and on the dole....

The whole thing is a chain, take out one link, and the chain falls apart.

LTS

Go think. Hunting is not just a group of Hoorays in pinks.


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Big Tim
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 03:01 PM

I hope they do ban fox-hunting, a, because it a pointless, selfish, cruel sport, b, because Prince Charles has, apparently, promised to go abroad and spend the rest of his life skiing if they do. The bugger can afford it!

PS I live in the country.


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 03:12 PM

Kevin, you seem to place a great deal of importance on figures, and particularly the one about the majority of country dwellers being in favour of a ban. If this is a true reflection of the facts, I would like to add one more figure to the equation, and that is. Of the people classed as rural for the purposes of the poll, how many are country people born and bred, and how many are incomers parachuted into a rural area they don't try to understand. These are the people who take farmers to court for making a mess on the road, and set the law on smallhoders, because their cock crows too early in the morning. While I don't dispute the figures you quote, I would challenge their validity, on these grounds.
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Mac Tattie
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 03:17 PM

Fox or stag hunting, practiced as a "pleasurable" pastime is indefencible. Full stop. Farming has been one of the most subsidised industries in Britain over the last thirty years or more. What have we have got in return? Less people working and living on the land, a shrinking wild life population, BSE and the future spectre of CJD and last year the worst ever outbreak of foot and mouth. (Which was a klondyke year for many in the agriculture bussiness) "The countryside is safe with us", we keep hearing, aye right. There is a fight going on here, but not town agin country but privilage, welth and position closing rank to protect their self intrests at any cost nomater who or what gets in their way.


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 03:32 PM

And I live in a city, despite being born in the country. The city could not function without the country, but the country can function without the city, if it were given the opportunity. It managed it for thousands of years before, it should be given the chance to do it now.

I moved away from the country because I got married to a city dweller. My prospects in the country were minimal, because there was no call for someone who can milk a cow by hand, reap with a scythe and sickle, spent hundreds of backbreaking hours planting and harvesting and can make bread, butter and jam from raw ingredients. By the time I was old enough to work at the milking, my grandfather's quota had been cut so many times it was no longer a viable option to keep the herd. How can you be a farmer's boy (or girl in my case) when there are no farmers left?

My generation is the first in my family (and I can trace it back over 300 years)not to work with the land, because we had no option but to leave it or face a life on the dole or at best, a wage that works out about 2/3rds of the legal minimum wage.

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 03:40 PM

True enough Giok - and at the same time, how many of the hunt supporters are people who've moved out from the town?

The point is, attitudes towards hunting divide the countryside population. In a protest about the things that are more central it doesn't belong, and it's selfish to link the two issues. A lot of miners enjoyed hare coursing, but nobody ever tried confusing that issue with the fight to save the jobs.

As for the farriers and the blacksmiths and all that, drag hunts could mean there was still the same demand for their services, assuming that the people who go hunting aren't just there for the kill, which I actually think is rather unlikely in most cases. I'd imagine its really rather fun riding around the countryside, after a pack of hounds, but a lot more enjoyable if you aren't out there trying to kill foxes.

If Morris Dancing involved ritual slaughter iI'd be agin it. Maybe it did one time, who knows? But it's better without the blood and bodies. And the same goes for hunting.


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 03:55 PM

Liz said: the country can function without the city

Well I suppose if you want hark back 300 years and do without medicine, machinery and other technology, then I suppose it probably could.

If that's really the life you want, why not sell up, buy a small holding and totally eschew modern life?

Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 04:05 PM

That's the point, it isn't 300 years... as I said, MY GENERATION - that's the last 30 years... and if I could make a small holding pay, I would, but that's just it, government quotas and restrictions mean it's an impossible task. A small farm is only allowed to produce so much. It gets fined if it produces too much. Trouble is, the amount it can produce legally isn't enough to make it a viable paying farm. Why do you think so many 'Farmers Markets' are springing up all over the place? Farmers have to go 120 miles to sell at prices to make it worthwhile, or have a huge farm.

All the computers, machines and technology in the world will not grow a potato, produce milk from grass or lay an egg.

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Gareth
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 04:08 PM

Mmmm ! Morris dancing with ritual slaughter ? Now theres a rare thought.

The problems of rural deprivation, isolation, and insecurity are well documented - It is a pity that those who are now pretending to care about the major problems did not give a damn before thier "fox hunting" was threatened.

Something suggests to me that the whole issue of hunting with dogs is a red herring. It's more a cry of rage that the establishment, which tends to model it's self on a rural aristocracy, now finds it's self excluded from political power.

I'am afraid that various Lords and Ladies, wealthy bankers, and Ian Duncan Smith, do not convince me about thier sudden concern for the economic rights of the rural dweller.

I can rember whole communities being wiped out, sons deprived of the right to follow thier fathers in to employment. Oh yes, and when coalfield met countryside headlines in local papers such as the "Kentish Gazzette" - "Man in fight with miner"!

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 04:11 PM

And whoever thinks Morris dancing isn't a blood sport hasn't seen Albion dance recently (but then, not many people in England have, they average 2 gigs a year!)

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 04:18 PM

I agree with your last 2 posts entirely McGrath.

Liz, think on what McGrath has said. If hunting was left out of this do you think the Countryside Alliance would get more or less support?

My own suspicions about the organisation's motives together with my own anti-hunting feelings are sufficient to prevent me wanting to have anything to do with them regardless of whether some of the other issuses suh as ones you raised in your first post are valid causes for concern.


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: GUEST,Ray Harding
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 04:58 PM

Liz,

Excuse my ignorance on such things, but could you please explain a bit more about these 'fines' As far as I understand CAP (Common Agricultural Policy) farmers get subsidies, not fines.

Ray


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 05:12 PM

"The problems of rural deprivation, isolation, and insecurity are well documented - It is a pity that those who are now pretending to care about the major problems did not give a damn before their "fox hunting" was threatened." - Gareth had it spot on.

All the arguments and protests about subsidies, grants, quotas and restrictions have been rumbling on ever since we joined the Common Market in the early 1970's! Not that I'm saying that was the problem, but it's a convenient cut off date that I can personally testify to.

I daresay it wouldn't have got such a high profile if the hunting lobby weren't involved, but maybe that was the last straw that broke the camels' back? One last blow to the livelihood of half the population? What is next might you ask? Maybe you would suddenly come up with a whole other heap of arguments for the treatment of jobless people if it were you made jobless.... or if the compulsory demise of the motor vehicle meant you had to walk a bit farther.....

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 05:15 PM

Liz,

Will you please stop saying that this is about half the population?

Half the nation aren't country dwellers or farmers, it's less than 10%


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 05:30 PM

Only 10% may be farmers or 'country dwellers' but the effects spread considerably farther than just them. That's the whole bloody point! Everyone is affected somehow, even if it is just an extra penny on a pint of milk.

But I think you may have a slanted view on just how many people live in cities.

My uncle is a farmer. He has a diary farm, which is one of the smaller variety. Last year, due to F&M he was forced to dump most of his milk because it could not be picked up. Travel restrictions between farms meant the tanker could not get to the plantroom, and he couldn't pump it up the hill to the tanker. He failed to meet his milk quota. He pleaded F&M, the government said 'tough'. He was given a subsidy because he had to subsequently slaughter his herd, but then had the majority of it taken away because he hadn't made his milk quota for a given month. That's what I mean by a fine.

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 05:45 PM

According to The World Fact Book UK employment is divided: agriculture 1%, industry 19%, services 80% .

I have some sympathy for your position, but to invent figures off the top of your head (400 000 probably means 750 000, it's all the fault of 200 MPs etc) only serve to weaken your case

Depending on how you define 'city' and 'country' then you may come up with diffent figures


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: GUEST,Simon Richardson
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 06:52 PM

Whilst I find fox hunting decidedly abbhorent, I don't agree with banning it.

It's unduly cruel for certain, and I have a considerable personal distaste for the type of people who wish to do it.

However, (partly due to my current financial situation) I eat cheap eggs, bacon, lamb and chicken, and the animals that provide my dinner undoubtedly suffer too.

Calling for a ban on hunting, whilst continuing with my current diet would be quite hypocritical, however much I dislike the people who engage in and enjoy the 'sport' It also goes against my instincts of letting people live their lives as they wish if it doesn't adversly impact on others.

What does really annoy me about today's march was the cynical attempt to gain numbers by attempting to combine the 'fox issue' with other rural disquiets.

'Liberty and Livelyhood' was a ridiculous slogan.

The 'liberty' of country dwellers to go to a large supermarket in the nearest big town is the reason for the decline of local village shops

The 'liberty' of using cars is the reason for the lack of adequete public transport

The 'liberty' of being able to sell houses at a great profit to 'townies' is the reason for prices being so expensive

The 'livelyhood' of a farmer deciding to use modern machinery rather than local workers, is the reason for less rural jobs

Simon


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: JudeL
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 07:04 PM

Lies , damned lies and statistics. statistics can appear to support just about any position you care to name. It depends upon your definitions and which figures you use. Out of context figures, even those from the world fact book are just another way to be wrong with confidence. e.g. you quoted 80% as working in service industries, but people are who work in service industries lose their livelihood just as effectively as those who work directly in an industry if that form of employment disappears.


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 07:07 PM

Jude,

An explanation of exactly what you are trying to say, and a cohesive arguement would be helpful.

Thanks


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Gareth
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 07:08 PM

Guest Simon - Target! Target! Target!!!!!!

And who whinged most about the UK's minimum wage ?

The rural landowner !

With your permission I would like to use your comments in a Labour Party leaflet, in our little valley.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: GUEST,Simon Richardson
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 08:13 PM

Gareth,

Use whatever I say in any way you wish.

You might like to read this piece from the Telegraph, of all places.

I'd agree with about 90% of what he says.

Simon


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 08:28 PM

"Let us, instead, interpret the cry in its narrowest sense: which brings us back to why we are having this march at this time. It is to protest at the Government's illiberal and cynical determination to restrict the liberty of country people to hunt vermin in a traditional way."

Reads very much like the Telegraph to me.

At least the author was honest enough not to claim the march was about anything else.

I look forward to reaing tommorows headlines...


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: GUEST,Simon Richardson
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 08:39 PM

GUEST,

I'm far more interested in reading tomorrows leaders.

I very much liked The Observer's idea.

The idea that:

hunts [that]want to continue, [should] win licences from their local authorities, who should be obliged to hold referendums on the question

Seems an excellent idea to me, local people decide democratically. A good way to end the bitching.

Simon


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 09:06 PM

That may be fair Simon.

I do detest fox hunting but I do have a general discomfort about banning things although in a referendum, I would vote against.

Personaly I wish fox hunts would voluntarily change to drag hunts and fail to understand why the persecution of a wild animal or the need for blood seems to be required for what in large part is a "social occasion" for those involved.


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 09:10 PM

Well, I only asked!

john


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 09:16 PM

And you got some interesting discussion...

Does that cause you difficulty, John?


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: GUEST,janey
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 09:35 PM

GUEST, and others,

Suggesting Drag Hunting is an easy option.

Having never hunted, and having no inclination to hunt in any shape or form, I'm probably not best qualified to answer this.

However, from what I've read, asking a fox hunter to take up drag hunting, would be similar to asking a long term finger picker of an historic Martin, to suddenly start playing on a cheap Spanish guitar, after all the notes are the same...

Janey


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 09:50 PM

No Janey, It would be more like asking a guitar player to change from using tortoiseshell picks to quality plastic picks.


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 10:34 PM

So the killing is what really motivates the hunters? No fun without the blood? I'd have thought most people would find it a lot more fun.

What puzzles me is how it is we don't need to have our town foxes kept under control by having packs of hunters with dogs ranging through the street.

Incidentally, what's with the "9UK" in the heading to this? A misprint?


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 02:57 AM

The figures for attendance I quoted came directly from the BBC. I did not "invent figures off the top of your head".

I did not invent my uncles situation, neither did I make up any of the arguments, they are all there in the media for you to peruse at your leisure.

Define a 'Service Industry'. Define one industry that isn't directly affected by the failure of its' workers to find good, cheap food and drink, apart from the fashion industry (models and sweatshop labour).

When you eat your breakfast today - be it cornflakes, bacon and eggs, chocolate, remember - whatever you have, it has an animal or vegetable content - hell, even Poptarts have wheat in them! Agriculture may only account for a small percentage of employment (because if they can't even pay the minimum wage, who can they get to work for them?) but it accounts for 99.999rec.% of the food you stuff in your face.

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Big Tim
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 03:18 AM

Liz, I think you've nailed one there re low rural wages. My kids once worked for an organic producer (who had been educated at Rodean!)and got 50p an hour. This though is, to repeat myself, driven by economics: people want cheap food: the supermarkets want to please their customers: so prices and wages at the beginning of the chain, crop picking for example, are driven down and down. Basically, as a society of "consumers", we are far too bloody selfish and mean. I mean, the firemen are now wanting £30000 a year to sit around watching porn videos or sleeping, literally, half the time.


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Gervase
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 03:21 AM

Sorry about the late posting, but I was in London yesterday as part of the 400,000 to 600,000 people marching.
Maybe I shouldn't have been there - I don't hunt and I've almost always voted Labour. Nevertheless, I found countless people on the march like me - people who defied the simplistic media portrayal of the marchers. There were wildfowlers from Merseyside, miners' hunts from Yorkshire, terrier club members from Cumbria, smallholders from Dorset, organic farmers from all over and a huge mass of ordinary people. I'm afraid it was about a lot more than fox-hunting.
Yes, there were "toffs" there, but why should someone's accent or social background disbar them from having their voice heard? The overwhelming impression I had was of decent, ordinary people who, for once, were given a voice to protest at what they perceive is an increasingly urban and ignorant establishment.
Some of the pundits have complained that the marchers' complaints were muddled and inchoate - but that's hardly surprising when you think of the huge range of people involved. What matters is that the range of voices was heard at all.
As for public opinion - were we always to listen to the polls we would still have capital punishment in the UK, many non-white britons would have been sent 'home' in the past and homosexuality would probably still be illegal. Sometimes sensible government means listening to minorities before imposing the supposed will of the majority.
For me, yesterday was exhilarating, inspiring and - sadly - ultimately rather depressing. There was a feeling of empowerment come too late.


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Ringer
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 05:30 AM

I maintain that it is fundamentally illiberal to advocate the banning of an activity which we personally may find distasteful. And I also think that, if foxes must be controlled (and I believe they must), it is better that folks should enjoy controlling them than not.

Like Liz the Squeak, I am first-generation-off-the-land; I suspect that if I had been my tennant-farmer father's eldest son I would, too, be a farmer. When I see how hard my older brothers' sons, carrying on the tradition, work, for what little reward (are you aware that the average farm income last year was £7000?), then I am grateful that our roles are not reversed. From talking to them, and more particularly to their wives, I know that hunting is not the sole, nor even the primary, motive for their having been on yesterday's march.

I'm a bit ashamed that I did not join them.


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 05:38 AM

I do enjoy reading your prose, Gervase, the pleasure probably stemming from broad agreement.

However, I didn't go on the march, because of the inchoate (thanks for that one, how does one pronounce it?) grievances brought together under the catch-all banner. Oliver Sterling appeared the typical tally-ho hunting activist, rallying anglers and allotment buffs, and any other grouping that has anything to do with the place where the pavement runs out behind the (however emotive) economically minute Hunt Debate. That reduced the potency of the message to the periodically staged farce of Wurzels wandering round Trafalgar Square with a piglet under the arm.

Have a Hunt Rally, sure. Single message, no dilution.

However, Tone didn't hang about in town to greet the green peril, which about sums up the actual penetration of this bluntest of weapons.

I'm not rubbishing the well meaning efforts of the rural communities in shouting their anguish. I work in agriculture, and my livelihood depends directly on competitively produced food grown on British farms. But the problem is not one of government. It is one of economics, and the current over-mighty subject, the supermarkets.

40% of white meat consumed in the UK is imported, much of it from south-east Asia. It is produced in and transported from Thailand more cheaply than indigenously available chicken, because of vastly cheaper labour, and the use of meat and bone meal, animal fat (tallow) and fishmeal, which are products proscribed in the EU, and shipped to Thailand at giveaway prices. And who is to blame for this one example of 'world' markets? The supermarkets, for not applying the same feeding and welfare criteria to non-EU imports as the beleagured UK farmer.

So, in summary, railing at the people who set taxes isn't hitting the heart of the problem. Until labelling (and what a farce that issue is) is sorted out and mounting a successful 'Buy British Food' campaign, agriculture is going to remain buggered, even if Iain Duncan Smith married Anne Widdicombe, and we made them king and queen.

But I'm glad everyone had a good day out, and it wasn't hijacked by the loonies that caught you last time, Gervase!


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Gervase
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 05:40 AM

Agreed Ringer, but could we make an exception for golf?
I mean, all those acres of land enclosed and fenced off from the rest of us just so that a bunch of Daily Mail reading dinosaurs can dress like 70s pimps and parade their prejudices while patronising 'the ladies'? Aaargh!
On second thoughts, let it be. At least it gives me something to snort at!


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 05:43 AM

"I maintain that it is fundamentally illiberal to advocate the banning of an activity which we personally may find distasteful." Badger-baiting, cock-fighting, dog-fights. bear-baiting, otter-hunting...


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 05:45 AM

Liz,

The figure that I accussed you of invent[ing] off the top of your head were those of 750 000 marchers, and that it would only be 200 MPs who decided.

I watched or listened to the BBC for a good deal of time yesterday. At no point did I hear a figure greater than 400 000. I also read the BBC website several times. Again no mention of a figure in excess of 400 000.

That's why I think you're inventing figures 'off the top of your head' when you suggest there were 750 000 people there

There are 650 MPs in the UK, a majority on any free vote such as this needs 326 votes. And given the depth of feelings on the issue, I would expect almost all of them to exercise their vote

That's why I think you're inventing figures 'off the top of your head' when you suggest that it only needs 200+ MPs to decide.

You asked me to define a 'service industry'

I could do so, but I won't insult your intelligence by providing the generally agreed definitions of the primary, secondary and tertiary sectors of the economy that can be found in any basic economics textbook (and on numerous websites).

You also say: Agriculture...accounts for 99.999rec.% of the food you stuff in your face

No it doesn't. I happen to eat a lot of fish...


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 05:59 AM

McGoH: Kevin, your last post equates fox Hunting with bear baiting, cock fighting, etc.
The point is that these have already been banned. Hunting and fishing are still practiced. The government promised to have a vote on the banning of fox hunting. After due process the bill failed.
On the basis that Tony Blair was seen to have failed his supporters it is being brought up again, this time with the threat that if defeated in 'The Lords' it will still be forced through. This is even after he has attempted to equalise the make up of the upper house.
Fishing, although harming a much greater number of animals on a daily basis, has not (yet) been targetted. Could this be because it is seen as being practised by men more likely to be supporting the labour party ?

Nigel


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 06:09 AM

Nigel

re Fishing

I think that the answer is because fish aren't mammals, aren't pretty and don't have nice furry coats. Their young aren't 'really adorable' to most humans either


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 06:18 AM

Pheasants -1,000s

Dead pheasants splattered on roads - 100s

Shoots -100s

Foxes - 100s

Farmers pockets' filled with £1,000s


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 09:55 AM

If dragging will not suffice and it is blood that is required, can I suggest, to keep everybody happy, that we combine the elements of fox-hunting with those of the Roman games?

People in hunting 'pinks' can blow their horns and chase starved lions around. The hunt support industries can still supply equipment, for what would be a slightly fairer contest. They may soon run out of people keen enough to take part, if not of those willing to pay to watch? There should be more than enough blood to satisfy the apparent lust for this….. It would not of course, come only from the victims this time.

Liz, Gervase and others make some very good points. But all those folk with real concerns for the people and life of the countryside must realise that it is totally counter-productive to allow these concerns to be identified with and used by those whose aims will never be supported by the majority of the people in the UK. Where ever these people originate or now live.

Didn't we used to call the process of replacing activities and pursuits that we generally could not be proud of - progress?


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Ringer
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 10:02 AM

I don't understand your argument, McGrath (your post 23-Sep-02 - 05:43 AM). What have "Badger-baiting, cock-fighting, dog-fights. bear-baiting, otter-hunting..." to do with the illiberality or otherwise of advocating a ban on those activities which we find distasteful?


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: GUEST,Towny
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 11:56 AM

"You townies don't understand the countryside" I understand the countryside all too well. After consuming a five-course meal at the Hilton hotel after the march, those "hoary handed sons of toil" will get back in their Range rovers and return to their subsidised life stiles destroying habitats and poisoning rivers.


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 12:12 PM

Towny,

It's a shame that you can't make a reasoned point.

All of the people who have posted interesting messages here, have


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Grab
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 01:55 PM

I'm another who would have supported this, had it really been about "Liberty and livelihood". I don't live in the country, but as a keen walker I've spent a lot of time out there, and I know how much the farmers are getting screwed over.

Fox-hunting is an inefficient way of controlling pests. I don't have a problem with killing animals for fun, but I do disagree with causing unnecessary suffering, particularly when the alternative - shooting them - is quick, humane and efficient. If there was a way to, for example, train the dogs to stand off when the fox was cornered, so that a huntsman could shoot it, that would suit me just fine. It would also force the hunters to be the ones killing it, which would focus them on what they're doing.

But the wider problem is that the countryside is being systematically buggered, and the government is either doing nothing about it or actively encouraging it. Farmers are being forced to clear woodland and hedges to get that bit more land to farm, bcos they can't make ends meet without it, and that has a knock-on effect on all the local wildlife. Importers of meat and grain aren't compelled to follow the same rules as British farmers, so locally-produced food is more expensive. And British farmers face far more regulation and red tape (and have to pay for it) than anywhere else in Europe, which knocks them back more.

The money involved in hunting is tiny. The money involved in agriculture is huge. The reason rural communities are screwed is that no-one can make enough money to live there - why earn less than £10,000 as a farmer when you can make more than that working in Tescos in town?

Take *that* message to London, and they'll have my support. I didn't go on last weekend's march, but I'd join anyone who'd try to address the *real* issue.

Graham.


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 02:11 PM

I'm shocked and stunned and very disappointed in the human race as a whole...

Watching the news last night over dinner... hundreds of thousands of people marching to protect a stupid, barbaric custom... a throwback to, (and so a clinging to) a past of darkness and ignorance...

But in Toronto on the same day only 15 hundred people show up to a walk to raise money for AIDS research...

You tell me which issue is more important...

No... on second though, don't...

It just leaves me wondering when oh when is the stupid human race gonna get its collective heads out of it's collective bums?


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 02:17 PM

Fox-hunting is an inefficient way of controlling pests. I don't have a problem with killing animals for fun, but I do disagree with causing unnecessary suffering, particularly when the alternative - shooting them - is quick, humane and efficient.

Many people do have a problem with killing animals for fun, and I am one of them. I speak not as a townie or a Champagne socialst but as a one time crofter, shepherd and as one employed to slaughter many thousands of sheep.

Taking away life should be looked upon as the great responsiblity it is and should never be considered as 'fun'. Sometimes it may be necessary to kill, but I have worked alongside and worried about folk who did appear to find killing sheep to be 'fun'. I worried that, under different circumstances, they may also turn out to be the people who found killing people also be 'fun'.


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 02:28 PM

Kevin, your last post equates fox Hunting with bear baiting, cock fighting, etc. The point is that these have already been banned. Hunting and fishing are still practiced. The government promised to have a vote on the banning of fox hunting. Kevin, your last post equates fox Hunting with bear baiting, cock fighting, etc. After due process the bill failed.

None of those "sports" would have been banned if the people who enjoyed them had had their way.

The elected members of Parliament have by overwhelming majorities voted for fox-hunting and stag hunting with hounds to have the same legal status as bear-baiting, cock-fighting etc. Unelected members of the House of Lords have interrupted the process of implementing the ban, true enough. However when Nigel Parsons says, in respect of this, that "After due process the bill failed" - well, it might possibly mislead some people. If they aren't too familiar with tey British system of government, they could well assume that "due process" implied the actions of a democratically elected parliament.


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 02:44 PM

Hopefully after Fox-hunting is banned, the next to fall will be bull fighting...


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 04:41 PM

Clinton I agree that it is sad that the Aids march was so poorly attended, but I feel on the whole that you are comparing chalk with cheese.
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 04:57 PM

Huh?

Chalk with cheese?

How so?

(Neat phrase that... I've never heard that one before...)


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 03:28 AM

HRH Prince Charles said, that if foxhunting is banned in UK, then he is going to emigrate, and spend the rest of his life ski-ing, I wont miss him anyway! is that how you spell ski-ing? Good riddunce, big ears.john


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Ringer
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 04:27 AM

None of those "sports" would have been banned if the people who enjoyed them had had their way. says McGrath of Harlow, talking approvingly of the past banning of bear-baiting and cock-fighting, etc.

But with that argument, the government-that-knows-best is justified in banning any and every activity, removing any and every liberty.


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 07:22 AM

That is why we have the House of Lords. They have time to discuss matters which the House of Commons attempt to rush through.
On t.v. Ian Duncan Smith (leader of the opposition in the commons) made it clear that as Tony Blair is making time to try to ban hunting whilst there is insufficient time being spent on sorting out Teaching, Health & Law 'n' Order, it is only reasonable that if the Conservative party come back to power, time should be allowed to re-instate hunting.
Surely parliametary time can be better spent than to take a second go at hunting, when a large show of support for hunting has been seen.

Nigel


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 07:33 AM

What we are going to get, is hunting with dogs, but under licence.

Any thoughts on this strange concept?


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 07:51 AM

Come on Nigel,

Your 'large show of support' amounts to less than half of one percent of the population.

Polls always report a big majority in favour of banning it, it was a manifesto promise by Labour.

They have a responsibility to give it Commons time.


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 07:56 AM

Guest: They gave it commons time, and the bill failed!
They now want to give it more commons time.
This is like having a referendum, and being told you will continue to have referendums until you get the answer right

Nigel


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 08:11 AM

No, as you well know, the commons passed it, the lords blocked it.

Given that it's a manifesto promise with large public backing, I think that they should give it another try.

Of course, if the Tories want to make a manifesto promise to reinstate it and get it (assuming it does get banned) then of course commons time should be given to it.

I don't agree with banning it btw, but the issue is important to many on both sides and hence worthy of further discussion


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 08:35 AM

Yes, The Lords blocked it, that's what I meant when I said the bill failed. It needs the assent of both houses.
Large public backing doesn't really affect our political process. Every time there is an opinion poll on capital punishment the public is largely in favour of re-instatement, but in parliament the MPs are allowed a vote of conscience, and vote not to re-instate, irrespective of the fact that they are there as representatives of their constituents.

Nigel


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 08:43 AM

Guest, you said "Your 'large show of support' amounts to less than half of one percent of the population."

What percentage of the population turned out to protest against the Countryside Alliance then? I think I've seen a figure of 150. That's people who are prepared to protest in person rather than hurredly answer a street survey.


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 02:43 PM

Comparing chalk with cheese, and also apples with oranges, is just a way of saying you an't compare two things with so little in common. That's why they invented statistics, so that you can prove any two things are the same, using any set of figures you choose. As can be seen from the arguments above, statistics like beauty are in the eye of the beholder. Always remember the mantra, "There are lies, damned lies, and then there are statistics"
Failte.....Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 03:32 PM

As it happens there are rather more urgent issues than fox-hunting.BS: So anyone going on this march?(28th UK)

The thing about fox hunting (and stag hunting) is that a very large majority of people see it as essentially the same as other blood-sports, like badger-baiting, dog-fighting, cockfighting and bull fighting etc, which have already been banned for years. And they don't want that kind of thing going on in their country, because they see it as degrading and disgusting.

A small minority of people disagree, but they haven't so far been able to persuade the rest of the population to see it that way. A small minority can still add up to quite a lot of people, of course.)


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This Thread Is Closed.


Mudcat time: 23 September 1:51 PM EDT

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