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Improving at playing an instrument

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Jiggers 23 Sep 02 - 08:02 AM
Mr Happy 23 Sep 02 - 08:15 AM
Uncle_DaveO 23 Sep 02 - 10:50 AM
GUEST,Gern 23 Sep 02 - 10:57 AM
Skipjack K8 23 Sep 02 - 11:03 AM
smallpiper 23 Sep 02 - 11:15 AM
wilco 23 Sep 02 - 11:26 AM
M.Ted 23 Sep 02 - 12:07 PM
GUEST,Jiggers 23 Sep 02 - 02:18 PM
wysiwyg 23 Sep 02 - 02:37 PM
GUEST,Jiggers 23 Sep 02 - 03:42 PM
GUEST 23 Sep 02 - 03:56 PM
Bee-dubya-ell 23 Sep 02 - 04:47 PM
wysiwyg 23 Sep 02 - 05:02 PM
Uncle_DaveO 23 Sep 02 - 05:28 PM
GUEST,Jiggers 23 Sep 02 - 06:09 PM
wysiwyg 23 Sep 02 - 06:37 PM
NicoleC 23 Sep 02 - 06:44 PM
Bee-dubya-ell 23 Sep 02 - 06:58 PM
wilco 23 Sep 02 - 07:17 PM
smallpiper 23 Sep 02 - 08:27 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 24 Sep 02 - 12:34 AM
GUEST,Davetnova 24 Sep 02 - 04:00 AM
wilco 24 Sep 02 - 12:11 PM
wysiwyg 24 Sep 02 - 12:29 PM
wilco 24 Sep 02 - 01:52 PM
Jiggers 25 Sep 02 - 10:17 AM
NicoleC 25 Sep 02 - 10:22 AM
wysiwyg 25 Sep 02 - 10:52 AM
wysiwyg 25 Sep 02 - 10:59 AM
GUEST,denise:^) 25 Sep 02 - 05:32 PM
Memphis Mud 25 Sep 02 - 06:37 PM
Leadfingers 25 Sep 02 - 06:53 PM
banjoman 26 Sep 02 - 06:51 AM
Jiggers 26 Sep 02 - 07:21 AM
wysiwyg 26 Sep 02 - 09:25 AM
Jiggers 26 Sep 02 - 09:41 AM
wysiwyg 26 Sep 02 - 09:45 AM
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Subject: Improving at playing an instrument
From: Jiggers
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 08:02 AM

Hi,

I am just beyond the beginner stage with the tin whistle but still a beginner with the violin.

I am trying to work out why sometimes I can practise for days but seem to get no better yet at other times I can practise for just a few hours and make reasonable progress.

I am wondering if this is down to the mood I am in - e.g. no expectations and playing for personal pleasure = advance. Lots of expectation and playing in the hope that I can impress someone later = no advance (regardless of determination).

Does anyone else agree/disagree ?

Whereas I can easily hit the latter mood, the former comes only once in a while. Is there any way I can reverse this (or am I doomed because this is born of the desire the drives my 'no advance' mood)

Maybe I am on the wrong track entirely and the violin just requires lots and lots of practice, in which case the question is "how many hours a week should I spend to improve" ?

Cheers,

Jiggers.


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Subject: RE: Improving at playing an instrument
From: Mr Happy
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 08:15 AM

my best advice is; take your toys out to a session near you. it can be really hard to sustain your focus when trying to practice on your own.

also, you'll find others willing to help you out with tips,shortcuts etc.

good lick,

mr h


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Subject: RE: Improving at playing an instrument
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 10:50 AM

You're experiencing a common phenomenon in skills training: The "plateau". The fact is that the perceived time with no progress is an illusion. During the time you are not speeding up or not getting more accurate you are in the process of learning things that just aren't getting integrated yet. When they are integrated, that's the time things just seem to fall into place; you get a spurt of improvement, and then you get another plateau.

A great suggestion is that you tape record yourself periodically. You may not see much progress, but give it three or six months, and you listen to those earlier recordings, you'll be impressed at the progress that happened.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: Improving at playing an instrument
From: GUEST,Gern
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 10:57 AM

Right you are, Uncle Dave, from my experience at least. Musical progress is not linear, or even incremental (sp?) It is occasional, unpredictable, and rather fickle. Like all good Zen masters, we should enter our exercises without any expectation of progress, and accept that we are moving forward whether we can detect it or not. Scatter your more challenging pieces with confidence-builders. Violin to me was especially unforgiving; I'd take one day off and move backwards one week! Just keep slugging it out. Even a poor practice session will make you a better musician.


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Subject: RE: Improving at playing an instrument
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 11:03 AM

The practice time thing is the other way round for me. How many hours can I get away with practicing before I get a rolling pin upside me chops from the memsahib. Practice time is nirvana, not a penance to be endured.

Oh, and when things are going bosoms-up, play the tune you do best, with as much passion as you can. Then put it down, and walk away for a bit.

Good luck, and do the session thing. That really cements learning, however bumpy the start.

Skipjack


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Subject: RE: Improving at playing an instrument
From: smallpiper
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 11:15 AM

What the others said, sometimes the plateau can seem to last for ages. But note there is no substitue for practice practice practice practice and more practice until you are heartily feb up and sick of it then go away for a couple of hours and start again! You may not notice the improvement but others will. Skipjack - I bet you don't get the rolling pin as often as you used to!


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Subject: RE: Improving at playing an instrument
From: wilco
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 11:26 AM

Get in some kind of music club that jams regularly. I basicly played alone for years. Improvement really began when I started playing regularly with a group of people. I just re-formated my group's book of "Everyday Songs," and it has about 200 that the group plays routinely. The periodic tapes are a great idea too.

Wilco in Tennessee


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Subject: RE: Improving at playing an instrument
From: M.Ted
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 12:07 PM

Without meaning to slight the tin whistlers in any way, I must say that the violin is a more demanding instrument, and it will take more time and work to get control of it. An old friend who was also a violinist in one of the more famous symphony orchestras once told me that she had days when she had trouble getting a good sound out of the instrument--

Also remember that practice means working toward a specific and achievable goal, with definite method for achieving that goal, and then concentrating and staying focussed til you've made it--jamming and fooling around, while beneficial in their own way, are not practice--also, performance is not practice--

You have to put in a lot of time to learn an instrument, and the time that you put in as a beginner is much harder time than for an long time player--

After nearly forty years of playing, when I sit down and work on something, it doesn't take much time to get a good result--when I was starting out, it could take days to get a piece into listenable shape, and some pieces even took years to get into performable shape--

Dave is exactly right--when things are the most difficult is the time you are learning the most--and smallpiper is also right--when things get rough, go back and play what you know best--we often are so wrapped up in new challenges that we loose touch with our accomplishments--


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Subject: RE: Improving at playing an instrument
From: GUEST,Jiggers
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 02:18 PM

Hi

Thanks for the advice - I can buy the plateau idea. I agree too that I should just give the practice a break sometimes instead of suffering.

I'll do a tape as suggested as that will give me something concrete to compare against.

There aren't many sessions around here in Cardiff(UK) so I don't know if I'll get to jam.

Cheers

Jiggers


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Subject: RE: Improving at playing an instrument
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 02:37 PM

Start a jamming community of your own:

Growing a Folk Community from Seed

If you read as far as Part II of that thread, you will find that we have gathered up a group of people just like you, and we are not only improving, we're having a blast doing it.

Good luck!

~Susan


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Subject: RE: Improving at playing an instrument
From: GUEST,Jiggers
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 03:42 PM

I scanned the thread briefly - don't know - have thought of trying to start something myself in the past but lost momentum - I can't remember exact reasons.

Worries - People who turn up and dominate. People who turn up and are awful players but love playing and can't be stopped. Everyone who turns up can't play and the whole thing is a mess. Getting a venue. Paying for a venue. Trying and failing. Finding out I already know all the people. Picking myself up afterwards. That kinda stuff ... sorry its such a long negative list.

There's a session on a Thursday night but you really need to know the tunes before you go as because of the seating arrangement you are hyper-exposed. Some of the people who go are top-class musicians and can create an intimidating atmosphere. How do you overcome that ? Any tips ? Its hard to not make a mistake if you are nervous.

Cheers

Jiggers


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Subject: RE: Improving at playing an instrument
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 03:56 PM

Susan,

You're well meaning, but you do make inapproriate and stupid suggestions sometimes.

Could you shut up about what you did, for a few days?


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Subject: RE: Improving at playing an instrument
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 04:47 PM

Total agreement with what Uncle Dave et al have said. But, I would add that it's not just during the early learning stage that we experience those perceived doldrums punctuated by spurts of rapid progress. It happens during all phases of our creative development. And, furthermore, it's not something that is limitted to music. Visual artists and writers experience the same thing.

Music is a hobby for me, but I make my living in the visual arts. Sometimes I'll go for a month or more just turning out the same old product by rote and then, bam! In one day I'll fill the whole studio with stuff that I have no idea where it came from. But, in reality, I do know where it came from. During the "doldrum" I've been absorbing ideas from a a wide variety of sources. Some have been due to intentional efforts such as studying another artist's work, but some have just been picked up subconsciously. At some point, they simply merge into a coherent executable concept. And, most importantly, inspiration feeds itself. Once you have "broken through" and created a new piece of art or written a new song or learned a new fiddle tune or finally mastered a tough bit of technique, the mental tools you need to do it again are right there and already sharpened. It's natural to turn around and write another song or learn another tune or paint another painting until the particular set of stimuli that brought on the current creative spurt are exhausted. Then we have to start collecting new bits for the next time it happens.

Bruce


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Subject: RE: Improving at playing an instrument
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 05:02 PM

Guest, what I did isn't the point, the point is that one CAN start up a new session, and that it's easier than one might think. I'll trust Jiggers to know if anything there is useful in his situation, thank you.

Jiggers, we have not seen anything of the sort you are worrying about, so please feel free to use anything that's helpful to your situation. Our jams (US) seem to be different from your sessions (UK I'm guessing) in some respects. Here, people overcome needing to be note-perfect by sitting off to the edge a bit and playing quietly to the extent one can. For instance, at a workshop I attended, when this question came up, the workshop leader and the experienced players present indicated that it's fine to play just the notes that carry the accented beats, and fill in the rest as one gets to know the tunes better next time around. I don't know if that's considered bad form in your area, but you might ask one of the players how they got so good and how to get from your skills to skills you are more confident in. And you might find recordings or online MIDIs of the tunes to help you prepare to play with that group.

Mr. Happy seems to indicate that other session players may be more helpful than you fear they will be. In any event, if you focus on the love of the tune, that's what will pull you forward as you gain more skill AND confidence.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: Improving at playing an instrument
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 05:28 PM

Another learning trick (in ANY learning context, as far as I can see) is that you don't want to practice hour after hour. For instance, it's much better to do three half-hour practice sessions, at different times with other things intervening, than to practice for an hour and a half uninterruptedly. It appears that what you've gained by the short(er) practice period needs some time to sink in or something. Also, practicing when you've tired yourself out with practicing is less efficient.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: Improving at playing an instrument
From: GUEST,Jiggers
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 06:09 PM

Hi,

I think the 'how did you get so good ?' approach could be a winner in breaking down some barriers and building some small bridges.

In the sessions in my town there is an 'in' group of people and they can really cold-shoulder you - at least it feels that way. I am sure this isn't just my perception of the situation.It seems that the music can also be a way of closing other people out too.

If it was easy to sit on the edge I would - but it can be lonely out there ! It worked once, when I went with my sister and bumped into a few friends who came and sat with me, I could join in when I knew a tune but could chat when I wasn't playing. No-one but friends were looking at me when I was playing and I felt more at ease.

As for hitting a plateau - the question is - should I work through it or sit back for a while ? I want to improve without getting frustrated - what attitude should I adopt ?

Cheers,

Jiggers


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Subject: RE: Improving at playing an instrument
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 06:37 PM

Follow your heart. It's very wise. Do what feels right, take a risk now and then, but go where the love of the music leads you. Been there-- I promise that will work.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: Improving at playing an instrument
From: NicoleC
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 06:44 PM

Dave, your comments are spot on.

Jiggers, I've been playing for about a year and am told I'm progressing well. I try and pracitve about 20-30 minutes a day on whatever my latest tune is, and run through a couple of older tunes at the end.

Most of the time, I'm good about practicing every single day. Even when I don't feel like it, I just pick up the fiddle and run through whatever tune I'm working on once. Heh, heh, that usually gets me going for at least 15 or 20 minutes :)

The only time I don't practice us when my fiddle is closed up in it's case after I've taken it somewhere. So when I come home with my fiddle, even if I'm not going to practice right away, I stop, open up the case, put the shoulder rest on, take the bow out of the holder thingies, and leave it sitting invitingly in my living room.

Those plateaus seem to be particularly bad with violin, maybe because there are so many things going on just to produce a decent sound that if you're off on one of them that day, you play awful all around. Hang in there and keep playing. If you are getting frustrated, you might want to shake stuff up a little. Practice at a different time of the day. Try a different style -- if you been playing celtic, try a little bluegrass or Romanian or Jewish.

I've just broken through this loooong multi-month plateau. Coincidentally, (maybe, but I think not) I also finally got around to ordering that new bow I've been wanting, and someone also gave me a fixer-upper that turned out to be rather awesome. Wow! I had no idea how much energy and mental damage was going into my bowing until I didn't have to think about it as much anymore.

Now I'm finding all sorts of other things that need working on :)


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Subject: RE: Improving at playing an instrument
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 06:58 PM

The fiddler I played with for years had a saying she got from one of her music teachers:

Skip practice one day, and only you will know.
Skip practice two days, and only your bandmates will know.
Skip practice three days, and everybody knows.


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Subject: RE: Improving at playing an instrument
From: wilco
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 07:17 PM

The protocols of jams are tough to establish, without some ground rules. There are hierarchies of musicians, and you will find particular insturments or individuals or styles will dominate, if allowed to.

SUGGESTIONS Remind everyone to be courteous. I suspect that the people with bad manners in a jam have bad manners everywhere. Welcome everyone, and discuss the "ground rules." Sit in a circle, and go around the circle for songs. Anyone that knows a song can jump-in. Just mention the name of the tune and the key. If the individual wants no-one to "help" on his song, he (or she) needs to say so. Have a regular time and place to meet. If people expect other people to learn a song, make copies enough for everyone. Some insturments, like lap dulcimers, are tuned to one key (usually D), and a special effort needs to be made to play in that key. If someone refuses to follow the rules, remind them that there are other people there who want to play too. If they persist, just move your chair, and start another circle out of earshot. Set a time to quit.

Wilco in Tennessee


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Subject: RE: Improving at playing an instrument
From: smallpiper
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 08:27 PM

Some friends of mine decided they wanted to learn to play (whistle) so they started getting together in one friends house for a couple of hours a week. I went in and taught them some basic stuff - some caught on quickly others took longer - just for a couple of weeks they now have their own little session and are attending other do's some have come on great others are still beginners but that's okay they are enjoying what they do. They have all performed in public and all joined in at other sessions (jams) perhaps thats a model you could follow. Find some beginners like yourself and form your own session, find someone to help out for a couple of weeks and you will supprise yourself.

Work through the plateau's - thats when you are perfecting your technique even if you don't realise it at the time. I too am learning the fiddle so I understand exactly what you mean.


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Subject: RE: Improving at playing an instrument
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 12:34 AM

If you cannot play a tin-whistel in 8 hours and have not FULLY mastered it in 40....you are severly wanting what the Good Lord dished out in the servings of musical talent.... consider becoming a Peat Bog Soldier instead.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: Improving at playing an instrument
From: GUEST,Davetnova
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 04:00 AM

I'm sorry for any offence caused but it appears Gargoyle has not mastered his mouth in eight years or his manners in forty. Jiggers, keep playing! I have spent two years with my mandolin (mostly playing alone, although I my wife is now playing the whistle and trying to learn the flute) Ifound my first couple of attempts at sessions totally intimidating but their are people who are willing to encourage and help, thank god. At a weekend festival the open acoustic jam tent had a good tune going and several peolple sat in. The tune players finished got up and left. This led to a general discussion of the type "Did I drive them away?" but luckily we were all thick skinned enough not to let it upset anyone, the tunes got going again and we had a great time. Go for it.


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Subject: RE: Improving at playing an instrument
From: wilco
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 12:11 PM

Gargoyle was not blessed with any manners or tact. I guess that he should quit being human, and try something else too!! If he can't be entirely human, he could confine himself to possibly one part of the human anatomy. Some of take a llllllooooooonnnnnnggggg time to learn things, especially me included. I had two fiddle Teachers tell me that i was wasting my money!!!! But, I enjoy it. It just took me much, much longer. Stick with it, and be patient. That's how we become good teachers to "pass it on."


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Subject: RE: Improving at playing an instrument
From: wysiwyg
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 12:29 PM

... And I think that sometimes we have a craving to play a particular instrument, so we put in hours and hours on it (or don't, and abandon it)... because we always wanted to play it, or we love how it sounds, or whatever. But somtimes, THAT one is not REALLY "our" instrument to play at all! Sometimes we find out quite accidentally what "our" instrument is, and THAT's the one that comes to us easily, and we can't see why it should. YOUR instrument is the one that when you pick it up, even before you know what you are doing, you can get a good-sounding tone out of it, and the fingers seem to know where to go, and something in your mind clicks YES and it all makes sense.   THAT is the one that calls us to play it for hours, and not feel like it's drudgery sort, taking something FROM us, but is instead something is being GIVEN to us in the "practicing." And that's the one that when we play it, we forget to care what people will think. And if they are playing what THEIR real instrument is, they won't care so much what WE are doing, because they'll be having such joy of it that there will be plenty of joy, spilling over to share.

Why else play???

~Susan


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Subject: RE: Improving at playing an instrument
From: wilco
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 01:52 PM

Susan's makes a wonderful point. I struggled with the fiddle for years, even though I could play a guitar, harmonica, mandoline, autoharp, etc. Now, I've fallen for open-back banjos. Don't be afraid to try any number of insturments (and styles). I play with lots of beginners, and, when they eventually gravitate to "their insturment," they thrive. That's 1/2 the fun!!!!


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Subject: RE: Improving at playing an instrument
From: Jiggers
Date: 25 Sep 02 - 10:17 AM

"Why else play"

1. To socialise 2. To hear the tunes - because some of them are nice 3. To impress - though I'd rather this wasn't a reason 4. Practicing gives me another option for something to do in the evenng 5. To take an active part in keeping the music alive

I have struggled with guitar, fiddle, tin whistle, bodhran and singing. If I had enough hands then I could do them all together.

I suppose I should try concertina, accordion, uileann pipes, flute, hammer dulcimer, harp, piano in the next few years. This could be expensive.

I'm not sure I believe this concept of 'your instrument'. Can you define it in a bit more detail.

Cheers,

Jiggers


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Subject: RE: Improving at playing an instrument
From: NicoleC
Date: 25 Sep 02 - 10:22 AM

"Your" instrument is the not only the one you find easier to play, but the one you have the most fun with. It's like finding the right size hat -- they all go on top of your head, but the right size is the comfortable one.


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Subject: RE: Improving at playing an instrument
From: wysiwyg
Date: 25 Sep 02 - 10:52 AM

It can't be defined, it has to be found. I can't offer you recipes-- only share things I know that may or may not apply in your situation, and you'll do your own thinking about your own situation.

Good Lord, tho, you don't BUY them all! (Or at least not just to try them out!) You try out others' instruments. At our jams there is a lot of gear-swapping during the breaks, and sometimes after the break you see several people keeping the one they are borrowing for the rest of the jam. At our jams, some folks bring sevral instruments, so at any given time there are a lot of them lying around idle.

If you try one like that and it seems to work for you, then you know it might be worth acquiring one to work with at home.

But yeah, try all of them!

~Susan


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Subject: RE: Improving at playing an instrument
From: wysiwyg
Date: 25 Sep 02 - 10:59 AM

Waiddaminnit..... I'll go out further on the limb. Those reasons you listed-- toss 'em out. They will be byproducts of the joy of the music, but if the joy isn't the reason, whatever instrument you choose, whatever the tune, it will still be a struggle and not a pleasure. It will lead to all those worries instead of leading you out of them.

My opinion, but reinforced by much observation.

Wish you were here at one of our jams. We'd have you giggling in glee AND playing beautifully in no time. If your music community does not do that-- it can be better!

Right instrument + right community of players = heaven on earth.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: Improving at playing an instrument
From: GUEST,denise:^)
Date: 25 Sep 02 - 05:32 PM

The stuff about plateaus is absolutely right!! You tend to improve in "jumps," with seemingly 'flat' places in between. Sometimes the jumps are so high they're really surprising!

Another thing: Sometimes I practice a piece for an hour or more, and seem to get nowhere (piano, hammered dulcimer, autoharp). I'm amazed the next time I sit down to play, and -- voila! The tune is there! I think it might take time for the practice to 'take hold.' But perservere. It will come in time.


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Subject: RE: Improving at playing an instrument
From: Memphis Mud
Date: 25 Sep 02 - 06:37 PM

I am agreeing with Ms Susan WYSIWYG. I knew a young lady in art school. She struggle in painting classes. I even caught her crying sometimes. Today she makes her living creating exquisite pottery/ceramics.


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Subject: RE: Improving at playing an instrument
From: Leadfingers
Date: 25 Sep 02 - 06:53 PM

Two thoughts.First,the elderly lady who came out of Grand Central Station and asked how to get to Carnegie Hall,and was told 'Practice,lady,practice!' Second thought courtesy of my mate Neil.The amateur practices until he knows it,the semi-pro practices until He's got it right,and the progessional practices until He cant get it wrong. But sessions can be far more use than sitting at home playing by(or with) yourself.


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Subject: RE: Improving at playing an instrument
From: banjoman
Date: 26 Sep 02 - 06:51 AM

Give up practising - the only thing you will get good at is practising. Get involved with other musicians in playalong sessions and just do what you can- nobody but you will notice the odd bum note- you will find that your playing will come on in leaps and bounds. Music is to be enjoyed - not practised


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Subject: RE: Improving at playing an instrument
From: Jiggers
Date: 26 Sep 02 - 07:21 AM

Susan - maybe you can send me a tape of one of your sessions. Then I might understand better - I can respond with one from UK.

The girl who cried - maybe that experience was necessary to make her so good at pottery/ceramics.

Jiggers


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Subject: RE: Improving at playing an instrument
From: wysiwyg
Date: 26 Sep 02 - 09:25 AM

Jiggers, Mudcatter Jen Ellen has tapes from Mudcat Gatherings held out in the US Northwest, that I think will illustrate what I am talking about. (I don't have a good way of making a tape with out group right now.) I bet she would love to swap! ou can send her a Mudcat PM, do you know how to do that?

A friend of mine has weekend music houseparties and people there often bring along a Discman or tape recorder-- the next is in November. I'll try to catch somethig for you while I am there. In the meantime, perhaps you might visit as many different sessions as possible and see if you find one where you feel comfortable sitting in.

Here's a thing to think about.... over here, when people get together for a jam session, what they are doing IS practicing. They may also practice at home-- but the session is practice for gigs they go off and do on their own. With their friends, they have a session, where they try out new things and refine their sense of the tunes. With their band mates, they have a rehearsal and then a performance to nail it all down. So by its nature, a session in the sense I know of them is all about spontaneity, and trying new things in a safe place.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: Improving at playing an instrument
From: Jiggers
Date: 26 Sep 02 - 09:41 AM

Thanks,

I will try sending her a PM.

Jiggers


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Subject: RE: Improving at playing an instrument
From: wysiwyg
Date: 26 Sep 02 - 09:45 AM

OK, and if a Mudcat Gathering forms anywhere you can get to-- oh my, GO!

~Susan


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Mudcat time: 8 July 12:25 AM EDT

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